question: Will Perumal Take Me?

[Guest guest]

Jaya sriman narayana

 

There is just one question i would like to ask. Hypothetically,

i am a Pygmy, have zilch knowledge about any religion, leave alone

knowing about a god called Narayana. I carry on my daily duties and

work and help people around me.

 

Do you think perumal will take me into his fold?

 

Sri Mudaliyandan swami sishya

 

Vasavi Sampathkumar.

[Guest guest]

Sri:

Srimathe Ramanujaya nama:

 

Dear Vasavi,

The answer to your qusetion lies in AchArya AbhimAnam! I am

going to write on that in a few days time. Do you belong to

MudaliANdAn's family? If so,I envy you totally. KUraththAzhwAn cribs

that he is not as fortunate as MudaliANdAn because AzhwAn had only

spiritual connection while ANdAn had both spiritual and bodily

relation with EmperumAnAr.

 

AzhwAr EmperumAnAr Jeeyar TiruvadigaLE saraNam

nappinnai

[Guest guest]

My sincere and respectful pranams to all sri vaishnavas

 

ALL JEEVATHMAS are measured by their deeds. we have come to do karma.

But every person is vested with some responsibility based on his

birth. He has to full fill all his responsibility. For example all

Brahmins have to do Nithya Karmas/ Nithya Anushthanam.

 

[Msg. From Moderator: Nithya Karmas and Anushtanams is for all those

who undergo Upanayanam, Brahmana, Kshatriya & Viashya are all eligible]

 

There are two things that has been stated. Both of them are equally important.

 

1) Doing good deeds

2) Doing karmas properly

 

If even one thing is pending, then it is very difficult to attain

moktcham.

 

On the above case, I am sure that I can never attain him. Hope many

of you will join me.

 

But Bakthi is a very wide subject.

 

It starts from bottom most and goes higher and higher. Even just

chanting Perumal names will do. Give atleast one of your 5 pulans for

his sake at a time. That is to say, atleast think of him, atleast

utter his names, atleast see his photos/vigrahams, or atleast hear

about him.

 

ORU NAMAM SONNALE PODHUM.

 

My understanding in this subject is this.

 

BEFORE DOING ANY ACT WE SHOULD ASK OURSELF, WHETHER PERUMAL WILL

ACCEPT THIS, DOES HE GIVE ME A PAT ON MY BACK FOR DOING THIS

 

IF YES, DO THAT ELSE LEAVE IT

 

DO GOOD ALWAYS AND GIVE CREDIT TO HIM.

 

DOING KARMAS OR GOOD DEEDS WITHOUT INVOLVING HIM WILL TAKE LOT OF

TIME TO REACH HIM.

 

WE HAVE TO RELATE OURSELF WITH HIM IN ONE WAY OR THE OTHER

(BROTHER/SISTER, FATHER/SON, FRIENDS, GURU/SISHYAN, ETC ETC) AND TO

INVOLVE HIM ALSO INTO TO OUR DAY TO DAY ACTIVITIES. THIS TWO IS VERY

VERY IMPORTANT TO REACH HIM QUICKER.

 

But nothing to worry . Perumal with all his Kalyana Gunas/abara

karunai is only trying to bring every body to his fold and to shower

his fullest blessings. He is waiting for us in all temples and having

a resolution to go back only after taking the last jeevathma in this

world with him.

 

 

adiyen ramunuja dhasan

 

 

 

 

 

ramanuja, vasavi s <citadelofsucess> wrote:

>

> Jaya sriman narayana

>

> There is just one question i would like to ask. Hypothetically,

> i am a Pygmy, have zilch knowledge about any religion, leave alone

> knowing about a god called Narayana. I carry on my daily duties and

> work and help people around me.

>

> Do you think perumal will take me into his fold?

>

> Sri Mudaliyandan swami sishya

>

> Vasavi Sampathkumar.

[Guest guest]

srImathE rAmAnujAya namaha

srImadh varavara munayE namaha

 

Dear Members, this is a very long message as necessitated by the

fragile nature of the topic. I request you all to read this in full,

if at all you are reading. All my replies are intertwined and if you

miss even one portion, there is a high possibility you may get

mislead.

 

Dear Sri Krishna,

 

I cannot agree to most part of your comments. Sorry to say this so

bluntly, but I request you to read it as just a constructive

criticism and not to denigrate your views.

 

-------------------------Quote 1

 

> ALL JEEVATHMAS are measured by their deeds. we have come to do

karma.

> But every person is vested with some responsibility based on his

> birth. He has to full fill all his responsibility. For example all

> Brahmins have to do Nithya Karmas/ Nithya Anushthanam.

 

-----------------------Unquote 1

Are you really sure about this? I am sure that this is not the case.

The nitya karma et al are to be fulfilled only for the sAdhana

bhakthi nishTars. For the prapannAs who have put all their burden on

Sriman Narayanan, where is the time of doing all these nitya karmAs.

As Sri Krishna says in Bhagavat Gita, the bhakthi and hence the

concentration on him should be continuous without any break just like

the flow of oil (sloka: 'thailadhArA....'). So where is the time for

one to do his nitya karma.

 

Another standing example, quoted from vArthAmAlai of Sri pinbazhagiya

perumAL jeeyar (Sorry I do not have the number of 'vArthai' correctly

as I am away from home). Once on a dwAdasi day, Sri Bhattars mother

comes to him (This is after Sri kUratthAzhwAn attaining paramapadham)

and asks him for perumAL thIrtham to end her EkAdasi upavAsam

(fasting), for which Sri Bhattar questioned, "Do you have so much

time and vairAghyam to even forget perumAL and get involved in all

these vrathams". What a word. What does this signify for a

kainkaryapara or a prapannA, the only duty to keep all the burden on

Sriman Narayanan and live at His mercy.

 

This is what exactly Sri ThoNdaradippodi AzhwAr says in ThirumAlAi

pAsuram 'mEmporuL pOga viTTu.........vAzhum sOmbarai ugatthi pOlum

madhiL thiruvarangatthAnE'. Look at the words 'vAZhum sOmbar'. This

pAsuram is the lifeline of ThirumAlai, just like the Charama slOkam

for Sri Bhagavadh Gita. In this pAsuram the AzhwAr asks all of us to

renounce everthing and just do nothing to earn anything. It is only

His mercy and grace which will give one the mOksha.

 

There was an AchAryA who lived true to these above words. He is Sri

ThirukkaNNamangai ANdAn. His story is very well known to everybody as

it is quite often quoted in Sri Vachana BhooshaNam et al. He once saw

two masters fighting and dying over the death of a dog. Then he

realized, "if for the sake of just a lowly animal like dog, its owner

can enter into a fight and die, will the emberumAn who is the owner

of this lowly animal that is me (what a humility on part of him), not

take care of me and give me the mOksham". Thinking so, he just

remained without doing anything to earn the mOksham and eventually

got it.

 

There are many more examples and explaining everything on a e-mail

forum like this will only prolong the message and will make it less

interesting for people to read. So I stop here for this point.

 

---------------------Quote 2--

 

> If even one thing is pending, then it is very difficult to attain

> moktcham.

>

> On the above case, I am sure that I can never attain him. Hope many

> of you will join me.

------------------Unquote 2----

The above case is true only when the mOksham can be 'earned'. The

ThennAchAryAs refute this view very clearly. Yes, Sriman Narayanan,

who is the only Supreme God who can give mOksham is a 'nirankusa

swathanthran' (nirankusa swAthanthriyam - Unfettered independence).

He is 'aVaptha samastha kAman', the one who has everthing and doesn't

expect anything. There are many other kalyANa guNAs, but for refuting

this statement I will only take this two. By the first guNa, He can

grant mOksham to anyone He likes. He is not bound by anything nor

expects anything in return to grant mOksham. This is the second guNa.

All our AzhwArs and AchAryAs have clearly stated that He cannot have

any blemish in His guNAs and if one says that one has to complete all

the karmAs for Him to grant mOksham then it is against the

title 'avAptha samastha kAman'.

 

On the other hand the present day vadakalai AchAryAs support this

view to extent. Even they do not agree that one has to complete all

his Karmas. They only differ in that, for them, Bhakthi and Prapatthi

are both sAdhyOpAyam and they WILL earn mOksham. They are also of the

same opinion that EmberumAn will grant mOksham to anyone He wishes,

but based on the upAya anushTAnam. This is strongly refuted by

ThennAchAryAs. The ThennAchAryAs claim is that, even if one says He

grants mOksham based on an upAya anushTam it will only defame Him of

his title of 'avAptha samastha kAman', as it will be looked upon as

He is expecting something to grant mOksham.

 

The following pAsuram from Thirucchanda viruttam cleary explains

the 'nirankusa swAthanthriyam' of Sriman Narayanan.

 

pAsuram 85:

nacharAvaNaikkidandha nAdha! pAdha pOdhinil

vaittha sindhai vAnguvitthu neenguvikka nee inam

meitthan vallaiyAdhalAl aRindhanan nin mAyamE

uiytthu nin mayakkinil mayakkal ennai mAyanE

 

[AzhwAr says, "vaittha sindhai vAnguvithhu". This means He is capable

of taking back the thoughts (about Him) that He has given to the

AzhwAr (and hence the jeevAthmA) and also "neenguvitthu", meaning,

completely getting rid off. His capability is expressed by the

words " meitthan vallai" (surely you can). Finally says by doing this

He is mesmerising (mayakkinil) him (AzhwAr) and hence "please do not

do this to me"].

 

Does one need a more authentic pAsuram than this to support the fact

that He is 'nirankusa swathanthran'. So rest assured that nothing on

the part of the jeevAthmA is necessary to 'earn' mOksham. He is like

mother to everybody. He knows when to feed who and with what. So He

will do it automatically and at His will.

 

----------------------Quote 3--

 

> But Bakthi is a very wide subject.

>

> It starts from bottom most and goes higher and higher. Even just

> chanting Perumal names will do. Give atleast one of your 5 pulans

for

> his sake at a time. That is to say, atleast think of him, atleast

> utter his names, atleast see his photos/vigrahams, or atleast hear

> about him.

>

> ORU NAMAM SONNALE PODHUM.

 

----------------Unquote 3-----

 

These words can only be an answer to the following question. If as

indicated above, the JeevAthmA need not do anything to 'earn'

mOksham, then what is the purpose of this life? The answer is what

you wrote.

 

Remember Sri Thirmazhisai AzhwAr in his nAnmugan thiruvandhAdhi

says '.....therithezhudhi vAsitthum, kettum, vaNangi, vazhi pattum,

poositthum, pOkinEn pOdhu'. Means, to just pass the time, one can

just read about Him, or hear about Him, or just pray with out any

expectation, or do a pooja just as a kainkaryam.

 

Please note that the word 'kainkaryam' has a very broader meaning

than that what people think of, these days. The act done by

a 'kinkara' is called 'kainkaryam'. Who is a 'kinkara'. He is the one

who just does what his master orders or wishes. The kinkara always

remains in a ready state to serve saying 'kim karOmi', 'kim karOmi',

meaning, 'what should I do'. So just by doing some service in a

temple and afterwards, saying that nobody respects me there is not at

all a kainkaryam. 'Kainkaryam' has to true in the sense as indicated

above. So if that is the case, where is the question of Him granting

mOksham only after the completion of a karma.

 

--------------------Quote 4---

 

> My understanding in this subject is this.

>

> BEFORE DOING ANY ACT WE SHOULD ASK OURSELF, WHETHER PERUMAL WILL

> ACCEPT THIS, DOES HE GIVE ME A PAT ON MY BACK FOR DOING THIS

>

> IF YES, DO THAT ELSE LEAVE IT

>

> DO GOOD ALWAYS AND GIVE CREDIT TO HIM.

>

> DOING KARMAS OR GOOD DEEDS WITHOUT INVOLVING HIM WILL TAKE LOT OF

> TIME TO REACH HIM.

 

-------------------Unquote 4--------------------------------

 

Accepted. But how do you know, what you are doing is pleasing him?

Does He come and tell you in person that, 'I liked this deed of

yours. So continue this'. No not at all. Our part is only to do the

things as ordained by Him and though His getting pleased is a welcome

side effect. That is why the ThennAchArya sampradhAyasthars still

say 'Bhagavat kainkarya roopam' instead of 'Bhagavath preethyartham'

in their sankalpams. If one says, I have done this to please you, so

get pleased, it means, he is imposing something upon Him, which is

not at all possible. Who are we to impose anything on Him. Also on

the other hand, if one thinks whatever he has done is pleasing for

Him, then it only amounts to AhankAra, mamakAram on the part of

jeevAthmA which is again very detrimental to attaining mOksha.

 

But having confused with the above para, one may question as to how

to differentiate between the good and bad deeds. This is where the

AchAryA comes to our rescue. EmberumAn doesn't come before us

directly to order us to do some thing. He sends His messengers who

are the AchAryAs to do that for Him. So a good AchAryA is the one who

can let us know how to differentiate between the right and wrong

thing. That is why Sri maNavALa mAmunigaL says in his UpadEsa rathina

mAlai, 'gnyAnam anuttAnam ivai nanRAgavE udayanAna guruvai

adaindhakkAl, mAnilatheer thEnAr kamalath thirumAmagaL kozhunan,

thAnE vaikuntham tharum'. A very important pAsuram highlighting the

need of an AchArya, which proper anushTAnams and knowledge, to attain

mOksham. There are two more beautiful rahasyams in this pAsuram.

First, by bringing in the reference to pirAtti ('thirumAmagaL

kozhunan'), Sri mAmunigaL confirms that the mOksham is bestowed by

Narayanan in unison with Sri. Second, by using the word 'thAnE' he

clearly says that He( meaning Narayanan in unision with Sri) will

grant mOksha by Himself and needs nothing else in return.

 

 

-----------------------Quote 5-----------------------------

 

>

> WE HAVE TO RELATE OURSELF WITH HIM IN ONE WAY OR THE OTHER

> (BROTHER/SISTER, FATHER/SON, FRIENDS, GURU/SISHYAN, ETC ETC) AND TO

> INVOLVE HIM ALSO INTO TO OUR DAY TO DAY ACTIVITIES. THIS TWO IS

VERY

> VERY IMPORTANT TO REACH HIM QUICKER.

------------------Unquote 5------------------------------

 

One can agree with this view, if only the last 4 words 'TO REACH HIM

QUICKER', can be removed, as with this it becomes a condition to get

mOksham and also that some deed on the part of jeevAthmA can earn

mOksham, which is not true.

 

----------------------Quote 6---

 

> But nothing to worry . Perumal with all his Kalyana Gunas/abara

> karunai is only trying to bring every body to his fold and to

shower

> his fullest blessings. He is waiting for us in all temples and

having

> a resolution to go back only after taking the last jeevathma in

this

> world with him.

-------------------Unquote 6

These are the very best words that can explain all that I said above

in toto. Yes, it is He who does something to reach us. I remember Sri

MA Venkatakrishnan swamy saying in one of his upanyAsams, that, the

jeevAtma is just like a watch that we wear every day. It shows us

correct time, because it is its duty. If it doesn't work properly,

the loss is for its owner that is us, and not for it as it is only an

achit vasthu. If it does not work properly, it becomes the duty of

its owner to correct if for his enjoyment. Same is the relationship

of the JeevAthmA with that of the paramAtmA Sriman Narayanan. The

watch is the jeevAthmA and the owner is Sriman Narayanan. No other

analogy is needed to better explain this context.

 

Request members to correct me for any misinformations I may have

given in the above.

 

Dear Sri Krishna, once again, please do not take this as an offensive

mail. I am only putting forth the points that I heard in many

upanyAsams and read in many book. So if my wordings have hurt you,

please be assured that they are not intentional. Also, I request you

and all other members to consider those sentences, above where I

written as if referring to you(Sri Krishna), as a common sentence

only and not particularly aimed at you. My sincere apologies once

again for any unintentional offensive words.

 

AzhwAr emberumAnAr jeeyar thiruvadigaLE saraNam

adiyEn rAmAnuja dAsan

Thirumalai Vinjamoor Venkatesh

[Guest guest]

Sri Parthasarathi thunai

Srimathe Ramanujaya Namaha

 

Dear Sri Venkatesh,

 

Before putting forth some of the points I know(learnt till now)

let me tell all the bhagavatas of the group that this mail is limited

to my ignorance and lack of understanding. So I beg the pardon of all

for any unintentional mistakes.

 

vinjamoor_venkatesh wrote:

 

>>Are you really sure about this? I am sure that this is not the case.

The nitya karma et al are to be fulfilled only for the sAdhana

bhakthi nishTars. For the prapannAs who have put all their burden on

Sriman Narayanan, where is the time of doing all these nitya karmAs.

 

According to what adiyen has heard anyone born in all three varnas(brahmana,

kshtriya and vaishya) are supposed to do their nitya karmas regularly. But

there are two types of dharmas. One is sadarana/sAmAnya dharmam and vishesha

dharmam. There is one legend in our guru paramparai. Sri Parasara bhattar had

a practice to go at the back of Sri Namperumal during perumal's purappadu.

 

Once the purappadu was going on and it was time for the sAyam sandhya.

When nanjeeyar asked bhattar about it bhattar replied, "edhai chitra guptan

kanakkile ezhudamattan"(this will not be calculated as a sin). So according

to our acharyas namperumal purappadu and kainkaryam to perumal and bhagavatas

was considered as vishesha dharmam and other nithya karmas to be sAmAnya

dharmam. Whenever there was a clash between the sAmAnya dharmam and vishEsha

dharmam they gave more preference to vishesha dharmam and never felt for

leaving the sAmAnya dharmam. But never did they say leave the sAmAnya dharmam

just because you are a prapannan. Remember Sri Ramanujar even in his last days

when he was very old never forgot to go to kaveri to do his nithya karmas.

 

Even after doing saranagathi(gathya trayam) in front of the divine couples he

continued his karmas till his final breath. If we are always involved in

Bhagavat kainkaryam then it is ok but then do we do it today. Ofcourse none of

our acharyas did the nithya karmas as a way to attain moksha they did it as a

kainkaryam too. As bhagavan says, "sruthi smrithi mamai agjya....agjna chEbhi

mama drOhi". So if a prappannan leaves the karmas specified by bhagavan in the

shastras he becomes drOhi(cheat to bhagavan). So prapannas do the nithya karmas

for following bhagavan's words as a kainkaryam to him and not as a upayam to

attain moksha. Here we have to remember both what lakshmana and bharatha did

were kainkaryam to Sri Rama. Lakshmana was near perumal but bharatha did

kainkaryam by acting according to perumal's words. So listening to what he says

and doing things accordingly(parathantriyam) is considered to be a great

kainkaryam. Both sesashatvam and parathanthriyam are regarded equally important

by our poorvAcharyas.

 

 

>>As Sri Krishna says in Bhagavat Gita, the bhakthi and hence the

concentration on him should be continuous without any break just like

the flow of oil (sloka: 'thailadhArA....'). So where is the time for

one to do his nitya karma.

 

Krishna in bhagavat geetha also says that each one has to do their duty

"karmamyEva dekA rasthE mA pAlEchu kadAchana". If we really do bhakthi non stop

then it is ok if we miss nitya karma. Once koorathazhvan was involved in some

bhagavat vishayam that he even forgot to do thiruvArAdhanam to bhagavan. Such

should be the concentration. Do we all possess the same? Then where comes the

question of leaving our nitya karmas?

 

>>Another standing example, quoted from vArthAmAlai of Sri pinbazhagiya

perumAL jeeyar (Sorry I do not have the number of 'vArthai' correctly

as I am away from home). Once on a dwAdasi day, Sri Bhattars mother

comes to him (This is after Sri kUratthAzhwAn attaining paramapadham)

and asks him for perumAL thIrtham to end her EkAdasi upavAsam

(fasting), for which Sri Bhattar questioned, "Do you have so much

time and vairAghyam to even forget perumAL and get involved in all

these vrathams". What a word. What does this signify for a

kainkaryapara or a prapannA, the only duty to keep all the burden on

Sriman Narayanan and live at His mercy.

 

True. A true prapannan should be like that only. It is a idealistic case.

Even our acharyas did not leave all the nitya karamas and live like that.

 

>>This is what exactly Sri ThoNdaradippodi AzhwAr says in ThirumAlAi

pAsuram 'mEmporuL pOga viTTu.........vAzhum sOmbarai ugatthi pOlum

madhiL thiruvarangatthAnE'. Look at the words 'vAZhum sOmbar'. This

pAsuram is the lifeline of ThirumAlai, just like the Charama slOkam

for Sri Bhagavadh Gita. In this pAsuram the AzhwAr asks all of us to

renounce everthing and just do nothing to earn anything. It is only

His mercy and grace which will give one the mOksha.

 

I accept that we should not do anything to earn anything but then we should do

all the karmas as kainkaryam to bhagavan. Sure nothing we do can earn us moksha

only his nirheduka krupai can but then why did the alwars sing paasurams and cry

since once we are involved in bhakthi we cannot just sit. We do everything for

his sake and enjoy seeing him smile at what we do(padiyai kidandhu vun pavala

vAi kAnbhEnE)

 

******** Quote ********

>>There was an AchAryA who lived true to these above words. He is Sri

ThirukkaNNamangai ANdAn. His story is very well known to everybody as

it is quite often quoted in Sri Vachana BhooshaNam et al. He once saw

two masters fighting and dying over the death of a dog. Then he

realized, "if for the sake of just a lowly animal like dog, its owner

can enter into a fight and die, will the emberumAn who is the owner

of this lowly animal that is me (what a humility on part of him), not

take care of me and give me the mOksham". Thinking so, he just

remained without doing anything to earn the mOksham and eventually

got it.

********End Quote ********

 

True the acharya didnt do anything to earn moksham but did he leave his nithya

karmas and kainkaryams. Sri Venkatesh adiyen understands what you are trying to

convey but then your words may highly mislead others.

 

>>Accepted. But how do you know, what you are doing is pleasing him?

 

When we act according to the words of bhagavan in the sastras and in the

bhagavat gita it surely pleases him.

 

******** Quote ********

>>Does He come and tell you in person that, 'I liked this deed of

yours. So continue this'. No not at all.

********End Quote ********

 

I strongly abjuct to this. Do you think perumal doesnt have the capacity to

guide us when we consider him as our driving force? A prapannan acts according

to the orders of perumal and do you think perumal cannot point out our mistakes

when we look at him for clarification. When we consider emperuman as

everything, surely emperuman answers our queries and guides us in the right

path. Sri Parthasarathi in gita declares that he does so. "Ananyath

chintayanthOmam yE jana par yupAsathE thEsham nithyAbhiyukthAnAm yOgashEmam

vahamyaham" So whatever kainkaryam we do is only to please him. Kainkaryam is

for his happiness and not for ours. So whatever we do should be aimed to please

him only. We are not impossing anything on him and we can never do so. We do

it for the sake of pleasing him and by his apara karunyam he gets pleased that

is it. He is a svathantran getting pleased or not is left to him but he also

has karunyam which makes him accept our even small bit of kainkaryam and get

pleased with the same. As you have said acharyas do show us the right path but

even they are given to us only by the emperuman. True in our sampradayam

acharyas are considered as par or even more than bhagavan himself but whatever

the acharya preaches is also only to please the bhagavan nothing against it.

Again we prapannas do not thing pleasing perumal to be a upaya to attain moksham

it is just the gratefulness we show for what all he has done for us to the

extent we can or rather we should call it to be our svabhavam to do kainkaryam

to bhagavan and please him rather than for anything else. Like our acharyas say

that nammazhvar's bhakthi was not sadhya bhakthi or sadhana bhakthi it was

sahaja bhakthi. It was his svabhavam to do bhakthi.

 

Sri Venkatesh adiyen totally know what you feel and what you wanted to convey.

But then in some places adiyen felt that your words may mislead others so just

to clarify, this mail.

 

Any mistakes may be please pardoned and corrected by the learned bhagavatas.

 

Alwar EmperumANAr jEEyer thiruvadigalE sharanam

 

Adiyen Ramanuja dasyai

 

Sumithra Varadarajan

[Guest guest]

Sri:

Srimathe Ramanujaya nama:

 

Dear Smt Sumitra,

adiyAl feels that you have mixed up the views of the

two schools. Vinjamoor Venkatesh's post is very clear from the

standpoint of Srirangam AchAryAs/TennAchArya sampradAyam.

This is an addition to his reply.

 

Srirangam AchAryAs:

 

Insist that living with the bhAgavatAs is essential for a

prapanna. The virtues of bhAgavatAs and the benefits of contact with

them are praised in superlatives which rival the value of the vEda

sAstrAs in MaNavaLa mAmunigaL's jnAna sAra [JS 40]. According to

AchArya Hrdaya, MM says that sAstric karmAs are inferior and might be

dropped in favor of archAvatAra. The superiority of prapanna, over

the followers of other upAyAs who abstain themselves from prohibited

objects,is in abstaining even from "permitted" obejcts[sVB 101]. For

a prapanna,cultivation of virtues should be left to the Grace of the

Lord,who works through the AchAryA and the contact with the

bhAgavatAs to instill in the soul, the knowledge,devotion,aversion to

wordly pleasures,non-egoism than trying to cultivate on his own[sVB

177]. It is similar to PiLLAn's milk analogy:"the goodness one

cultivates for oneself(self-eefort)is like milk bought from the store

but the goodness, the Lord fosters in the soul is natural like

mother's milk.

 

KAnchi AchAryAs/vEdAnta Desikan:

 

All the daily(nitya)and occasional(naimmittika)rites

enjoined in the sAstrAs according to varNAsrama are obligatory and

can not be omitted except in extreme cases without incurring the

Lord's anger. On the other hand, temple services(like offering

garlands,sweeping,chanting etc)are optional and may be done when time

permits to heighten the Lord's pleasure.

 

 

Swami Desikan makes it clear that the service which the prapanna does, must be

within the limits of varNAsrama dharmA[RTS 15]. Scriptural passages which praise

sUdrA devotees as brahmins and call brahmin non-devotees as sUdrA are not to be

interpreted to mean that "there is no distinction of varNa/jAti

among the devotees of the Lord" [RTS 25]. Further he says:

 

It is not proper to interpret the lives of the AzhvArs or incidences in

the itihAsa purANas as normative;sAtrA is to be the primary guide to conduct;

it is inappropriate to make the deeds of AzhvArs as examples

for our performance and even so, if we examine their behavior we find

no transgression of the rules of their own jAti[RTS 25]. As far epic

and purANic incidences,which apparaently conflict with sAstrA, are

concerned, Desikan claims that some people(srirangam AchAryAs) unable

to grasp the essential meaning of these various anecdotes have

exaggerated the tumultuous sport of the Lord of Lakshmi in the

kaliyugA[RTS 29].

 

NOTE:Desika's position is very clear and directly conflicts with the

arguments of AchArya Hrdaya. Rahasya Traya Sara(RTS),Desika's magnum

opus, was his last work.

 

[Moderator's note: Even though there were small Abhipraya Bhedam

(Differrences of opinion) after/during Swami Pillai LokaCharyan's time

esp. With Swami Desikan, there were no two Kalai's etc at that time,

There was only one Ramanuja Sampradaya at that time.]

 

WRT Ramanuja doing nitya karmAs:SBh 1.3.39

 

When a competent and trustworthy person asserts that what

was mistaken for silver is merely a sparkling shell,the error of a

sUdrA no less than of a brAhmaNA comes to an end;in the same way a

sUdrA also will free himself from the great cosmic error as soon as

the knowledge of the true nature of things has arisen in his mind

through a statement resting on the traditional lore of men knowing

the vEdA. Nor must you(all the previous bhASyAs written by different

people including Sankara)object to this on the groung that men

knowing the vEdA do not instruct sUdrAs and so on,because the text "he

(brAhmaNA) is not to teach him(sUdrA) sacred things" forbids them to

do so; for men,who have learned- from texts such as "Thou art that

(Tat tvam asi-Ch Up)"- that Brahman is their Self,and thus standing

on the very top of the vEdA, move no longer in the sphere of those to

whom "injunctions and prohibitions" apply,and the prohibition quoted

does not therefore touch them. Knowledge of Brahman may thus spring

in the mind of sUdrAs and the like,owing to the instruction recieved

from one of those men who have passed beyond all prohibition.

 

Ramanuja's explanation(above text)must have been influenced by his

own experiences with kAnchipUrNA(Tirukkachi nambi),who was not well

versed in vEdAntic studies but had a clear knowledge of the

conclusion based on it. Yet Ramanuja did nitya karmAs because his

time period was dominated by the brahmin communtity which had an

upperhand in most of the socio-religio matters. He must have had the

real courage and audacity to introduce revolutionary changes in

TirunArAyaNapuram temple. Why did he insist that every srivaiSNava

should stay in TiruNArAyaNapuram atleast for some time? Because it's

jnAna mandapam/house of knowledge(in the eyes of God,all are equal.

How can there be distinctions among His devotees which is above the

level of varNAsrama! But in RTS,Desika clearly says there is a

distinction between a brahmin and sUdra devotee. RAmAnujA didn't care

about caste etc,he was all set for samAsrayaNam under Tirukkachi

Nambi. But it's Tirukkachi nambi out of humbleness and egolessness

says that the society will not accept and he is not the person to do

the same for RAmAnujA. No wonder PiLLai LOkAchAryA claims that a

lower birth is superior because it's more conducive to sEshatva and

less prone to egoism than a superior birth which is prone to egoism

[sVB 208-10,241-2]. A prapanna's stand is similar to this and above

the varNAsrama. Even if a prapanna commits sins by not doing nitya

karmAs,like Tirumazhisai,he can offer the sins as merits to the Lord.

 

Another angle to look at: Ramanuja did nitya karmAs out of compassion

(lOkasangraha)to uplift the disciples and sons etc. Only when the

karmAs are done for selfish purposes that it becomes contrary to the

soul's true nature of dependence.

 

Whatever it's the acceptance(to do nitya karmAs or not)has to come

from Him. The paradox of extremes of the Lord's Supremacy(paratva)on

one side and His accessibility(saulabhya)on the other side,is the

central feature of Ramanuja's conception of Deity.

 

Both in RAmA and KrSNAvatAra,HE failed miserably to uplift all the

jivAtmAs. Did everybody realize RAmA/KrSNA as God? NO.

 

The unpredictability of the autonomous Lord motivates srirangam

acharyas to seek a safer means of salvation through the "AchAryA".

PiLLai lOkAchAryA says that only when the Lord is chosen as the upAya

that the soul alternatively exxperiences fear(from karmA)and non-fear

(from Lord's Grace)[sVB 406-7]. MaNavALa mAmunigaL explains that when

the unpredictable Lord and Judge of karmA is chosen as the

upAya,there is the possibility to think that He may,at any

point/time,reject the soul on account of his sins. But AchAryA is all

merciful with no autonomous power to punish the soul for his sins and

hence salvation through his love is without the fear of karma.

 

It's precisely due to these reasons, "AchArya abhimAnam/bhakti" had

such an impact on Ramanuja's disciples that they strongly believed in

Ramanuja's power to grant salvation(AchAryA as the "sole" means of

salvation) whoever was connected with him and Ramanuja's prapatti to

the Lord(SriRanganAthA)extended over even to future generations of

srivaiSNvAs. One group, with PeriavAchchAn piLLai of srirangam,[AD

1167-1262]as head, strongly believed in the above while the other

group,with NadathUr ammAL of kAnchi[AD 1181-1275]as head,apart from

believing in AchArya abhimAnam,stressed the importance of individual

efforts/human endeavor in attaining the same(salvation). This rift

grew wider and wider and deepened in the writings of PiLLai lOkAchAryA

[AD 1205-1311]and Vedanta Desikan[AD 1270-1368]. The two groups had

differences of opinion on the issues of human initiative,Divine Grace

and also prapatti and finally spilt into two sects.

 

This post should also set up the background for carama slOkam and

pardon for such a lengthy mail.

 

AzhvAr EmperumAnAr Jeeyar TiruvadigaLE saraNam

En iniya rAmAnujan tiruvadigaLE saraNam

nappinnai

[Guest guest]

Alwar emberumanar jeer tiruvadigale charanam.

avkrishnaa's reply was well presented.

Usha Narayan

 

 

--- avkrishnaa <avkrishnaa wrote:

> My sincere and respectful pranams to all sri vaishnavas

>

> ALL JEEVATHMAS are measured by their deeds. we have come to do karma.

>

> But every person is vested with some responsibility based on his

> birth. He has to full fill all his responsibility. For example all

> Brahmins have to do Nithya Karmas/ Nithya Anushthanam.

>

> [Msg. From Moderator: Nithya Karmas and Anushtanams is for all those

> who undergo Upanayanam. Brahmana, Kshatriya & Viashya are all

> eligible]

>