The Mahashakti vs. Just Another Deity

[Guest guest]

I am curious, given all that was said, where and how does freewill

come into the picture? I am really enjoying this thread, please keep

it up!!! Thanks.

 

Sparrow

 

Kali_Ma, "jodyrrr" <jodyrrr> wrote:

> Kali_Ma, sarina Helton <forestowl2>

wrote:

> >

> > Very well put. It is easy enough to remember that people who

you

> > like are Ma, but it is not so easy to remember that people who

> > don't really mesh with you are also Ma. So, just to be sure I

> > understand you, All action and interaction is Ma?

>

> Yes Sarina. *Everything*, all action and events which occur,

> and all the beings which are involved in them, is/are Ma.

>

> If someone enters my home and murders me, that was Ma.

>

> > How are you feeling today?

>

> I'm feeling a tiny bit better. Still bouncing off 102,

> but perhaps not quite as ill as I felt yesterday. I went

> to the doctor today, but all we could come up with was an

> unspecified viral infection. She suggested I return on

> Sunday if I'm still febrile then.

>

> Thanks for asking and for the help.

>

> --jody.

[Guest guest]

Kali_Ma, "weepingbluesparrow"

<weepingbluesparrow> wrote:

 

> I am curious, given all that was said, where and how does freewill

> come into the picture? I am really enjoying this thread, please keep

> it up!!! Thanks.

>

> Sparrow

 

That's a good question. To have free will, one must be an

individual who makes decisions and engages in actions based

on them. This would seem to be the apparent case with us.

I just seemingly made a decision to try to answer your question.

 

However, according to vedanta, we are not these individuals

we have been led to believe we are. The individual, as defined

by vedanta, is illusory. It's just an idea that we have that we

are individuals. This idea developed in the context of our

development as individuals by the events of our lives and

how we learned to deal with them. A baby is not an individual

right out of the womb. S/he has to learn that they are such.

Once they do, they can learn language and behavior and establish

their apparent free will in the process.

 

So, according to vedanta, there are no individuals, and hence

no free will. But that's completely counterintuitive, and not

very practical. Once must be living in jnana, that special

knowledge which comes to a life when Brahman is realized directly

and experientially. The rest have only got ourselves to

work with, which forms the basis of our existence as we know it.

 

So, some of us decide to become devotees of Ma. If we do so

within the framework of traditional shaktism, then we really

give up our free will, along with all our hopes and fears,

wants and needs, to Ma. This doesn't mean we stop making

decisions, just that we know that any decision we seem to

make is actually the activity of Ma, along with everything

else that seems to go on around us. We make decisions in

accordance to events which occur in our life. If Ma was the

generator of those events, any decisions we make in response

to them are also, at the very least, influenced by Ma. If

you add the vedantic paradigm to this, that I am not this

individual I appear to be, then you come to the conclusion that

everything that happens is by Ma's will, because I can only

really be the actionless Brahman, despite the seeming evidence

to the contrary.

 

So, as a devotee, I acknowledge the supremacy of Ma in each

and every action in my life, and sacrifice my free will on the

altar of devotion to Her. As the actionless Brahman, whether

or not I live in the recognition of that, there is no such

thing as free will, as all being is essentially one, and in

one very important way, completely transcendent of everything

that happens in the world, and even those things which appear

to happen to us an individuals.

 

I guess the bottom line is that you've got to believe in your

own free will as long as you believe in your own individuality.

When you realize yourself to be a sage, where all sense of

individuality leaves one, then you may come to have a sense of

having no will at all, even as you watch your apparent body

seem to make decisions and take actions.

 

--jody.

 

> Kali_Ma, "jodyrrr" <jodyrrr> wrote:

> > Kali_Ma, sarina Helton <forestowl2>

> wrote:

> > >

> > > Very well put. It is easy enough to remember that people who

> you

> > > like are Ma, but it is not so easy to remember that people who

> > > don't really mesh with you are also Ma. So, just to be sure I

> > > understand you, All action and interaction is Ma?

> >

> > Yes Sarina. *Everything*, all action and events which occur,

> > and all the beings which are involved in them, is/are Ma.

> >

> > If someone enters my home and murders me, that was Ma.

> >

> > > How are you feeling today?

> >

> > I'm feeling a tiny bit better. Still bouncing off 102,

> > but perhaps not quite as ill as I felt yesterday. I went

> > to the doctor today, but all we could come up with was an

> > unspecified viral infection. She suggested I return on

> > Sunday if I'm still febrile then.

> >

> > Thanks for asking and for the help.

> >

> > --jody.

[Guest guest]

Many years ago, when I had first determined that I was some sort of a

Shakta, I browsed through an Indian Import store in the Little India

section of New York (Lexington Avenue near E. 28th Street). Among the

many bronze deity statues they had on display, there was a beautiful

image of Parvati (Lord Shiva's wife in her peaceful aspect). I fell

head-over-heels in love, and asked the proprietor if I could examine the

statue.

 

The store owner called an assistant, pointed at the statue, and said,

"Bring me the Kali."

 

I was taken aback, for the statue had only two arms, had her hair tucked

into an ornate headdress, held no weapons. "Aren't you mistaken?" I

asked the store owner. "I've read a little about Hindu iconography.

Kali has long, wild hair. She weilds a sword, she dances on the body of

Lord Shiva, and her tongue is sticking out. Surely this is Parvati..."

 

The proprietor gestured for me to come closer, and in a conspiratorial

whisper, said, "Young man, ALL the goddesses are Kali!"

 

It's true. Peaceful or wrathful, ancient or brand new, everything that

is caught up in time, that casts a shadow, that partakes of a form,

contains Kali at the core.

 

I still wave incense and lamps before the image of Parvati, who stands to

the left of the dancing Shiva on my altar. But the years have led me to

appreciate the Goddess in her wrathful as well as peaceful forms. It's

all Ma's <leela>, Her game. And I cannot reject Her, in whatever of her

one thousand names and millions of aspects she choses to reveal Herself

to me.

 

Jai jai Ma!

 

-- Len/ Kalipadma

 

 

 

 

On Sat, 28 Aug 2004 15:45:51 -0000 "jodyrrr" <jodyrrr writes:

> Kali_Ma, "weepingbluesparrow"

> <weepingbluesparrow> wrote:

>

> > I am curious, given all that was said, where and how does freewill

>

> > come into the picture? I am really enjoying this thread, please

> keep

> > it up!!! Thanks.

> >

> > Sparrow

>

> That's a good question. To have free will, one must be an

> individual who makes decisions and engages in actions based

> on them. This would seem to be the apparent case with us.

> I just seemingly made a decision to try to answer your question.

>

> However, according to vedanta, we are not these individuals

> we have been led to believe we are. The individual, as defined

> by vedanta, is illusory. It's just an idea that we have that we

> are individuals. This idea developed in the context of our

> development as individuals by the events of our lives and

> how we learned to deal with them. A baby is not an individual

> right out of the womb. S/he has to learn that they are such.

> Once they do, they can learn language and behavior and establish

> their apparent free will in the process.

>

> So, according to vedanta, there are no individuals, and hence

> no free will. But that's completely counterintuitive, and not

> very practical. Once must be living in jnana, that special

> knowledge which comes to a life when Brahman is realized directly

> and experientially. The rest have only got ourselves to

> work with, which forms the basis of our existence as we know it.

>

> So, some of us decide to become devotees of Ma. If we do so

> within the framework of traditional shaktism, then we really

> give up our free will, along with all our hopes and fears,

> wants and needs, to Ma. This doesn't mean we stop making

> decisions, just that we know that any decision we seem to

> make is actually the activity of Ma, along with everything

> else that seems to go on around us. We make decisions in

> accordance to events which occur in our life. If Ma was the

> generator of those events, any decisions we make in response

> to them are also, at the very least, influenced by Ma. If

> you add the vedantic paradigm to this, that I am not this

> individual I appear to be, then you come to the conclusion that

> everything that happens is by Ma's will, because I can only

> really be the actionless Brahman, despite the seeming evidence

> to the contrary.

>

> So, as a devotee, I acknowledge the supremacy of Ma in each

> and every action in my life, and sacrifice my free will on the

> altar of devotion to Her. As the actionless Brahman, whether

> or not I live in the recognition of that, there is no such

> thing as free will, as all being is essentially one, and in

> one very important way, completely transcendent of everything

> that happens in the world, and even those things which appear

> to happen to us an individuals.

>

> I guess the bottom line is that you've got to believe in your

> own free will as long as you believe in your own individuality.

> When you realize yourself to be a sage, where all sense of

> individuality leaves one, then you may come to have a sense of

> having no will at all, even as you watch your apparent body

> seem to make decisions and take actions.

>

> --jody.

>

> > Kali_Ma, "jodyrrr" <jodyrrr> wrote:

> > > Kali_Ma, sarina Helton <forestowl2>

> > wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Very well put. It is easy enough to remember that people who

> > you

> > > > like are Ma, but it is not so easy to remember that people who

>

> > > > don't really mesh with you are also Ma. So, just to be sure I

>

> > > > understand you, All action and interaction is Ma?

> > >

> > > Yes Sarina. *Everything*, all action and events which occur,

> > > and all the beings which are involved in them, is/are Ma.

> > >

> > > If someone enters my home and murders me, that was Ma.

> > >

> > > > How are you feeling today?

> > >

> > > I'm feeling a tiny bit better. Still bouncing off 102,

> > > but perhaps not quite as ill as I felt yesterday. I went

> > > to the doctor today, but all we could come up with was an

> > > unspecified viral infection. She suggested I return on

> > > Sunday if I'm still febrile then.

> > >

> > > Thanks for asking and for the help.

> > >

> > > --jody.

>

>

>

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>

>

>

> Links

>

>

>

>

>

>

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Jai Ma

Kalimirkalipadma (AT) juno (DOT) com wrote:

Many years ago, when I had first determined that I was some sort of aShakta, I

browsed through an Indian Import store in the Little Indiasection of New York

(Lexington Avenue near E. 28th Street). Among themany bronze deity statues

they had on display, there was a beautifulimage of Parvati (Lord Shiva's wife

in her peaceful aspect). I fellhead-over-heels in love, and asked the

proprietor if I could examine thestatue.The store owner called an assistant,

pointed at the statue, and said,"Bring me the Kali."I was taken aback, for the

statue had only two arms, had her hair tuckedinto an ornate headdress, held no

weapons. "Aren't you mistaken?" Iasked the store owner. "I've read a little

about Hindu iconography. Kali has long, wild hair. She weilds a sword, she

dances on the body ofLord Shiva,

and her tongue is sticking out. Surely this is Parvati..."The proprietor

gestured for me to come closer, and in a conspiratorialwhisper, said, "Young

man, ALL the goddesses are Kali!"It's true. Peaceful or wrathful, ancient or

brand new, everything thatis caught up in time, that casts a shadow, that

partakes of a form,contains Kali at the core.I still wave incense and lamps

before the image of Parvati, who stands tothe left of the dancing Shiva on my

altar. But the years have led me toappreciate the Goddess in her wrathful as

well as peaceful forms. It'sall Ma's <leela>, Her game. And I cannot reject

Her, in whatever of herone thousand names and millions of aspects she choses to

reveal Herselfto me.Jai jai Ma!-- Len/ KalipadmaOn Sat, 28 Aug 2004 15:45:51

-0000 "jodyrrr" <jodyrrr > writes:> Kali_Ma,

"weepingbluesparrow"> <weepingbluesparrow> wrote:> > > I am curious, given

all that was said, where and how does freewill > > > come into the picture? I

am really enjoying this thread, please > keep > > it up!!! Thanks.> > > >

Sparrow> > That's a good question. To have free will, one must be an>

individual who makes decisions and engages in actions based> on them. This

would seem to be the apparent case with us.> I just seemingly made a decision

to try to answer your question.> > However, according to vedanta, we are not

these individuals> we have been led to believe we are. The individual, as

defined > by vedanta, is illusory. It's just an idea that we have that we> are

individuals. This idea developed in the context of our> development as

individuals by the events of our lives and

> how we learned to deal with them. A baby is not an individual> right out of

the womb. S/he has to learn that they are such.> Once they do, they can learn

language and behavior and establish> their apparent free will in the process.>

> So, according to vedanta, there are no individuals, and hence> no free will.

But that's completely counterintuitive, and not> very practical. Once must be

living in jnana, that special> knowledge which comes to a life when Brahman is

realized directly> and experientially. The rest have only got ourselves to>

work with, which forms the basis of our existence as we know it.> > So, some of

us decide to become devotees of Ma. If we do so> within the framework of

traditional shaktism, then we really> give up our free will, along with all our

hopes and fears,> wants and needs, to Ma. This doesn't mean we

stop making> decisions, just that we know that any decision we seem to> make is

actually the activity of Ma, along with everything> else that seems to go on

around us. We make decisions in> accordance to events which occur in our life.

If Ma was the> generator of those events, any decisions we make in response> to

them are also, at the very least, influenced by Ma. If> you add the vedantic

paradigm to this, that I am not this> individual I appear to be, then you come

to the conclusion that> everything that happens is by Ma's will, because I can

only> really be the actionless Brahman, despite the seeming evidence> to the

contrary.> > So, as a devotee, I acknowledge the supremacy of Ma in each> and

every action in my life, and sacrifice my free will on the> altar of devotion

to Her. As the actionless Brahman, whether> or not I live in the recognition

of that, there is no such> thing as free will, as all being is essentially one,

and in> one very important way, completely transcendent of everything> that

happens in the world, and even those things which appear> to happen to us an

individuals.> > I guess the bottom line is that you've got to believe in your>

own free will as long as you believe in your own individuality.> When you

realize yourself to be a sage, where all sense of > individuality leaves one,

then you may come to have a sense of> having no will at all, even as you watch

your apparent body> seem to make decisions and take actions. > > --jody.> > >

Kali_Ma, "jodyrrr" <jodyrrr> wrote:> > > --- In

Kali_Ma, sarina Helton <forestowl2> > > wrote:> > > > > >

> > Very well put. It is easy

enough to remember that people who > > you > > > > like are Ma, but it is not so

easy to remember that people who > > > > > don't really mesh with you are also

Ma. So, just to be sure I > > > > > understand you, All action and interaction

is Ma?> > > > > > Yes Sarina. *Everything*, all action and events which occur,>

> > and all the beings which are involved in them, is/are Ma.> > > > > > If

someone enters my home and murders me, that was Ma.> > > > > > > How are you

feeling today?> > > > > > I'm feeling a tiny bit better. Still bouncing off

102,> > > but perhaps not quite as ill as I felt yesterday. I went> > > to the

doctor today, but all we could come up with was an> > > unspecified viral

infection. She suggested I return

on> > > Sunday if I'm still febrile then.> > > > > > Thanks for asking and for

the help.> > > > > > --jody.> > > > ------------------------

Sponsor > --------------------~--> > Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads.

Companion Toolbar.> Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free!>

http://us.click./L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/CSdplB/TM>

--~->> > > >

Links> > > > > >

______________The best thing

to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand!Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES

FASTER!Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up

today!

 

Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Enter now.

[Guest guest]

I'm older than you think. I'm talking about over 20 years ago. I don't

think Butala Emporium existed back then. And the shop I'm thinking of

closed many years ago.

 

-- Len/ Kalipadma

 

 

On Sat, 28 Aug 2004 17:44:02 -0700 (PDT) Maha Kali Tara Ma

<jai_ma_kali writes:

> ohh thats the Butala Emporium! I went there but I will say the one in

> 74th street and Jackson Heights is better, its right off of

> roosevelt and going towrds 34th Ave its on the same section with all

> the jewlery stores are at. Its right on the otherside of the street

> where the Jackson dinner and Taj mahal is. Oh when you are there if

> you love Indian food go to the ashoka ok go on the side of the

> Jackson Dinner and Taj Mahal go to the end of the block you will see

> a drugstore on the opposite side of the street do not go that way

> just make a right on that cornor and do not cross any streets its

> right there next to an afgani eatery. Its awesome food its a buffet

> and you can also order stuff off the menu. You are so lucky to live

> in NY!

> Jai Ma

> Kalimir

>

> kalipadma wrote:

>

> Many years ago, when I had first determined that I was some sort of

> a

> Shakta, I browsed through an Indian Import store in the Little India

> section of New York (Lexington Avenue near E. 28th Street). Among

> the

> many bronze deity statues they had on display, there was a beautiful

> image of Parvati (Lord Shiva's wife in her peaceful aspect). I fell

> head-over-heels in love, and asked the proprietor if I could examine

> the

> statue.

>

> The store owner called an assistant, pointed at the statue, and

> said,

> "Bring me the Kali."

>

> I was taken aback, for the statue had only two arms, had her hair

> tucked

> into an ornate headdress, held no weapons. "Aren't you mistaken?" I

> asked the store owner. "I've read a little about Hindu iconography.

>

> Kali has long, wild hair. She weilds a sword, she dances on the

> body of

> Lord Shiva, and her tongue is sticking out. Surely this is

> Parvati..."

>

> The proprietor gestured for me to come closer, and in a

> conspiratorial

> whisper, said, "Young man, ALL the goddesses are Kali!"

>

> It's true. Peaceful or wrathful, ancient or brand new, everything

> that

> is caught up in time, that casts a shadow, that partakes of a form,

> contains Kali at the core.

>

> I still wave incense and lamps before the image of Parvati, who

> stands to

> the left of the dancing Shiva on my altar. But the years have led

> me to

> appreciate the Goddess in her wrathful as well as peaceful forms.

> It's

> all Ma's <leela>, Her game. And I cannot reject Her, in whatever of

> her

> one thousand names and millions of aspects she choses to reveal

> Herself

> to me.

>

> Jai jai Ma!

>

> -- Len/ Kalipadma

>

>

>

>

> On Sat, 28 Aug 2004 15:45:51 -0000 "jodyrrr" <jodyrrr

> writes:

> > Kali_Ma, "weepingbluesparrow"

> > <weepingbluesparrow> wrote:

> >

> > > I am curious, given all that was said, where and how does

> freewill

> >

> > > come into the picture? I am really enjoying this thread, please

> > keep

> > > it up!!! Thanks.

> > >

> > > Sparrow

> >

> > That's a good question. To have free will, one must be an

> > individual who makes decisions and engages in actions based

> > on them. This would seem to be the apparent case with us.

> > I just seemingly made a decision to try to answer your question.

> >

> > However, according to vedanta, we are not these individuals

> > we have been led to believe we are. The individual, as defined

> > by vedanta, is illusory. It's just an idea that we have that we

> > are individuals. This idea developed in the context of our

> > development as individuals by the events of our lives and

> > how we learned to deal with them. A baby is not an individual

> > right out of the womb. S/he has to learn that they are such.

> > Once they do, they can learn language and behavior and establish

> > their apparent free will in the process.

> >

> > So, according to vedanta, there are no individuals, and hence

> > no free will. But that's completely counterintuitive, and not

> > very practical. Once must be living in jnana, that special

> > knowledge which comes to a life when Brahman is realized directly

> > and experientially. The rest have only got ourselves to

> > work with, which forms the basis of our existence as we know it.

> >

> > So, some of us decide to become devotees of Ma. If we do so

> > within the framework of traditional shaktism, then we really

> > give up our free will, along with all our hopes and fears,

> > wants and needs, to Ma. This doesn't mean we stop making

> > decisions, just that we know that any decision we seem to

> > make is actually the activity of Ma, along with everything

> > else that seems to go on around us. We make decisions in

> > accordance to events which occur in our life. If Ma was the

> > generator of those events, any decisions we make in response

> > to them are also, at the very least, influenced by Ma. If

> > you add the vedantic paradigm to this, that I am not this

> > individual I appear to be, then you come to the conclusion that

> > everything that happens is by Ma's will, because I can only

> > really be the actionless Brahman, despite the seeming evidence

> > to the contrary.

> >

> > So, as a devotee, I acknowledge the supremacy of Ma in each

> > and every action in my life, and sacrifice my free will on the

> > altar of devotion to Her. As the actionless Brahman, whether

> > or not I live in the recognition of that, there is no such

> > thing as free will, as all being is essentially one, and in

> > one very important way, completely transcendent of everything

> > that happens in the world, and even those things which appear

> > to happen to us an individuals.

> >

> > I guess the bottom line is that you've got to believe in your

> > own free will as long as you believe in your own individuality.

> > When you realize yourself to be a sage, where all sense of

> > individuality leaves one, then you may come to have a sense of

> > having no will at all, even as you watch your apparent body

> > seem to make decisions and take actions.

> >

> > --jody.

> >

> > > Kali_Ma, "jodyrrr" <jodyrrr> wrote:

> > > > Kali_Ma, sarina Helton

> <forestowl2>

> > > wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > Very well put. It is easy enough to remember that people

> who

> > > you

> > > > > like are Ma, but it is not so easy to remember that people

> who

> >

> > > > > don't really mesh with you are also Ma. So, just to be sure

> I

> >

> > > > > understand you, All action and interaction is Ma?

> > > >

> > > > Yes Sarina. *Everything*, all action and events which occur,

> > > > and all the beings which are involved in them, is/are Ma.

> > > >

> > > > If someone enters my home and murders me, that was Ma.

> > > >

> > > > > How are you feeling today?

> > > >

> > > > I'm feeling a tiny bit better. Still bouncing off 102,

> > > > but perhaps not quite as ill as I felt yesterday. I went

> > > > to the doctor today, but all we could come up with was an

> > > > unspecified viral infection. She suggested I return on

> > > > Sunday if I'm still febrile then.

> > > >

> > > > Thanks for asking and for the help.

> > > >

> > > > --jody.

> >

> >

> >

> > ------------------------ Sponsor

> > --------------------~-->

> > Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Companion Toolbar.

> > Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free!

> > http://us.click./L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/CSdplB/TM

> >

> --~->

>

> >

> >

> >

> > Links

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

>

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>

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>

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[Guest guest]

I'm older than you think. I'm talking about over 20 years ago. I don'tthink

Butala Emporium existed back then. And the shop I'm thinking ofclosed many

years ago.-- Len/ KalipadmaOn Sat, 28 Aug 2004 17:44:02 -0700 (PDT) Maha Kali

Tara Ma<jai_ma_kali > writes:> ohh thats the Butala Emporium! I went

there but I will say the one in > 74th street and Jackson Heights is better,

its right off of > roosevelt and going towrds 34th Ave its on the same section

with all > the jewlery stores are at. Its right on the otherside of the street

> where the Jackson dinner and Taj mahal is. Oh when you are there if > you

love Indian food go to the ashoka ok go on the side of the > Jackson Dinner and

Taj Mahal go to the end of the block you will see > a drugstore on the opposite

side of the street do not go that way > just make a right on that cornor and do

not cross any streets its > right there next to an afgani eatery. Its awesome

food its a buffet > and you can also order stuff off the menu. You are so lucky

to live > in NY!> Jai Ma> Kalimir> > kalipadma (AT) juno (DOT) com wrote:> > Many years

ago, when I had first determined that I was some sort of > a> Shakta, I browsed

through an Indian Import store in the Little India> section of New York

(Lexington Avenue near E. 28th Street). Among > the> many bronze deity statues

they had on display, there was a beautiful> image of Parvati (Lord Shiva's wife

in her peaceful aspect). I fell> head-over-heels in love, and asked the

proprietor if I could examine > the> statue.> > The store owner called an

assistant, pointed at the statue, and > said,>

"Bring me the Kali."> > I was taken aback, for the statue had only two arms, had

her hair > tucked> into an ornate headdress, held no weapons. "Aren't you

mistaken?" I> asked the store owner. "I've read a little about Hindu

iconography. > > Kali has long, wild hair. She weilds a sword, she dances on

the > body of> Lord Shiva, and her tongue is sticking out. Surely this is >

Parvati..."> > The proprietor gestured for me to come closer, and in a >

conspiratorial> whisper, said, "Young man, ALL the goddesses are Kali!"> > It's

true. Peaceful or wrathful, ancient or brand new, everything > that> is caught

up in time, that casts a shadow, that partakes of a form,> contains Kali at the

core.> > I still wave incense and lamps before the image of Parvati, who >

stands to> the left of the dancing Shiva

on my altar. But the years have led > me to> appreciate the Goddess in her

wrathful as well as peaceful forms. > It's> all Ma's <leela>, Her game. And I

cannot reject Her, in whatever of > her> one thousand names and millions of

aspects she choses to reveal > Herself> to me.> > Jai jai Ma!> > -- Len/

Kalipadma> > > > > On Sat, 28 Aug 2004 15:45:51 -0000 "jodyrrr"

<jodyrrr > > writes:> > Kali_Ma,

"weepingbluesparrow"> > <weepingbluesparrow> wrote:> > > > > I am curious,

given all that was said, where and how does > freewill > > > > > come into the

picture? I am really enjoying this thread, please > > keep > > > it up!!!

Thanks.> > > > > > Sparrow> > >

> That's a good question. To have free will, one must be an> > individual who

makes decisions and engages in actions based> > on them. This would seem to be

the apparent case with us.> > I just seemingly made a decision to try to answer

your question.> > > > However, according to vedanta, we are not these

individuals> > we have been led to believe we are. The individual, as defined

> > by vedanta, is illusory. It's just an idea that we have that we> > are

individuals. This idea developed in the context of our> > development as

individuals by the events of our lives and > > how we learned to deal with

them. A baby is not an individual> > right out of the womb. S/he has to learn

that they are such.> > Once they do, they can learn language and behavior and

establish> > their apparent free will in the

process.> > > > So, according to vedanta, there are no individuals, and hence> >

no free will. But that's completely counterintuitive, and not> > very

practical. Once must be living in jnana, that special> > knowledge which comes

to a life when Brahman is realized directly> > and experientially. The rest

have only got ourselves to> > work with, which forms the basis of our existence

as we know it.> > > > So, some of us decide to become devotees of Ma. If we do

so> > within the framework of traditional shaktism, then we really> > give up

our free will, along with all our hopes and fears,> > wants and needs, to Ma.

This doesn't mean we stop making> > decisions, just that we know that any

decision we seem to> > make is actually the activity of Ma, along with

everything> > else that seems to go on around

us. We make decisions in> > accordance to events which occur in our life. If

Ma was the> > generator of those events, any decisions we make in response> >

to them are also, at the very least, influenced by Ma. If> > you add the

vedantic paradigm to this, that I am not this> > individual I appear to be,

then you come to the conclusion that> > everything that happens is by Ma's

will, because I can only> > really be the actionless Brahman, despite the

seeming evidence> > to the contrary.> > > > So, as a devotee, I acknowledge the

supremacy of Ma in each> > and every action in my life, and sacrifice my free

will on the> > altar of devotion to Her. As the actionless Brahman, whether> >

or not I live in the recognition of that, there is no such> > thing as free

will, as all being is essentially one, and in> > one very

important way, completely transcendent of everything> > that happens in the

world, and even those things which appear> > to happen to us an individuals.> >

> > I guess the bottom line is that you've got to believe in your> > own free

will as long as you believe in your own individuality.> > When you realize

yourself to be a sage, where all sense of > > individuality leaves one, then

you may come to have a sense of> > having no will at all, even as you watch

your apparent body> > seem to make decisions and take actions. > > > > --jody.>

> > > > Kali_Ma, "jodyrrr" <jodyrrr> wrote:> > > >

Kali_Ma, sarina Helton > <forestowl2> > > > wrote:>

> > > > > > > > > Very well put. It is easy enough to remember

that people > who > > > you > > > > > like are Ma, but it is not so easy to

remember that people > who > > > > > > > don't really mesh with you are also

Ma. So, just to be sure > I > > > > > > > understand you, All action and

interaction is Ma?> > > > > > > > Yes Sarina. *Everything*, all action and

events which occur,> > > > and all the beings which are involved in them,

is/are Ma.> > > > > > > > If someone enters my home and murders me, that was

Ma.> > > > > > > > > How are you feeling today?> > > > > > > > I'm feeling a

tiny bit better. Still bouncing off 102,> > > > but perhaps not quite as ill

as I felt yesterday. I went> > > > to the doctor today, but all we could come

up with was an> > > > unspecified viral infection. She suggested I return on> >

> > Sunday if I'm still febrile then.> > > > > > > > Thanks for asking and for

the help.> > > > > > > > --jody.> > > > > > > > ------------------------

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