The Mahashakti vs. Just Another Deity

[Guest guest]

I personally feel that when I am casting a spell, or drawing down the moon, or

anything else similary that I happen to do, It helps me to focus by making a

formal invatation to Kali. I know she is always everywhere, but for

concentration sake I call her, or put her picture in front of me when I

meditate. It simply gives me focus.

 

Just to clairfy, I didn't get on a particular religious right. I

thought I was getting on a Kali group. Sorry If I misunderstood.

 

Sarina

<jodyrrr > wrote:

There's a common misconception in American Neo-paganismthat Kali is a deity one

can call in to help completecertain tasks. While the intellectual conceit may

helpone to establish a belief in their imagined power, the fact is that Kali as

envisioned by the neo-pagans has very littleto do with Kali as envisioned by

shaktas.To a shakta, Kali is everything. There are no other deitiesto call in,

and there is no reason to call Her in, as Shehas already got all the bases

covered.Asking Kali to do something for you is like asking the skyto remain

blue. Everything is getting done by Her already.To a shakta, there is only one

thing a sincere devotee canever ask of Her, and that is for complete and total

surrenderto Her. This is already the state of all apparent beingsas it stands,

yet there is the

possibility of an experienceof this in the form of a shakta's

devotion.Ramakrishna said to never ask Ma for anything except moredevotion. He

used the example of a kitten as an illustrationof this. He pointed out that all

a kitten has to do is go"mew, mew." Everything that they need is taken care of

outof this simple request. They don't have to ask for more power,or a romantic

partner, or a better job, or world peace. Allof that kitten's needs are handled

by their simple request to their mother. Furthermore, the kitten knows that its

motheris much better qualified to make decisions about which wantsand needs are

to be fulfilled, and which aren't, despite whatthe kitten may or may not want

for itself.As apparent individuals, we have many wants and needs we aretrying

to get met. But if we are to consider ourselves true shaktas, as the practice

has evolved in India, there is

only one thing we should ever ask of Ma, and that is to be drawn as close to Her

as possible. All other wants and needs pale intoutter insignificance in the

light of the experience of truedevotion to Kali, one that comes only after one

has thrownaway any and all ideas of personal power, magic, and the manipulation

of the material plane by the casting of spells.--jody.

 

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[Guest guest]

I think you misunderstood the intent of my post, Sarina.

 

I'm not arguing for the neo-pagan view, I'm trying to make

it clear that neo-pagans have Kali wrong, at least in terms

of Her mythology and iconography as it exists in Her home

culture in India.

 

For instance, you call in Kali when you are casting a spell.

What are you casting a spell for? If Kali as the Mahashakti

is the cause of everything that happens, why would you want

to change that, or why would you even try?

 

The point I'm trying to make is that for a true shakta, as

the practice is defined in India, casting a spell is one of

the most trivial and petty actions one can take. It is the

opposite of the act of surrender to attempt to wield influence

over the material plane in this way, especially given the

fact that Ma's got it all under control already.

 

In other words, casting spells and Kali have as much to

do with one another as the Pope has with Britney Spears,

in my opinion.

 

Of course, everyone is free to do whatever they want with

whatever they believe. Kali as a cultural phenomenon has

got a lot of traction in the West as a result of the neo-

pagan fascination with Her. I'm only trying to make it

clear that their "uses" for Kali have practically nothing

to do with Kali as She exists in India, in terms of the

mythology and iconography which evolved there.

 

--jody.

 

 

Kali_Ma, sarina Helton <forestowl2> wrote:

> I don't really know how anyone else views Kali, I only know what

> she has shown to me. If "neo-pagans" feel that they need to make

> a formal call to Kali to focus their intent than that is what they

need to do.

> To each their own worship and growth.

> I personally feel that when I am casting a spell, or drawing down

the moon, or anything else similary that I happen to do, It helps me

to focus by making a formal invatation to Kali. I know she is always

everywhere, but for concentration sake I call her, or put her picture

in front of me when I meditate. It simply gives me focus.

>

> Just to clairfy, I didn't get on a particular religious

right. I thought I was getting on a Kali group. Sorry If I

misunderstood.

>

> Sarina

> <jodyrrr> wrote:

> There's a common misconception in American Neo-paganism

> that Kali is a deity one can call in to help complete

> certain tasks. While the intellectual conceit may help

> one to establish a belief in their imagined power, the fact

> is that Kali as envisioned by the neo-pagans has very little

> to do with Kali as envisioned by shaktas.

>

> To a shakta, Kali is everything. There are no other deities

> to call in, and there is no reason to call Her in, as She

> has already got all the bases covered.

>

> Asking Kali to do something for you is like asking the sky

> to remain blue. Everything is getting done by Her already.

> To a shakta, there is only one thing a sincere devotee can

> ever ask of Her, and that is for complete and total surrender

> to Her. This is already the state of all apparent beings

> as it stands, yet there is the possibility of an experience

> of this in the form of a shakta's devotion.

>

> Ramakrishna said to never ask Ma for anything except more

> devotion. He used the example of a kitten as an illustration

> of this. He pointed out that all a kitten has to do is go

> "mew, mew." Everything that they need is taken care of out

> of this simple request. They don't have to ask for more power,

> or a romantic partner, or a better job, or world peace. All

> of that kitten's needs are handled by their simple request to

> their mother. Furthermore, the kitten knows that its mother

> is much better qualified to make decisions about which wants

> and needs are to be fulfilled, and which aren't, despite what

> the kitten may or may not want for itself.

>

> As apparent individuals, we have many wants and needs we are

> trying to get met. But if we are to consider ourselves

> true shaktas, as the practice has evolved in India, there is

> only one thing we should ever ask of Ma, and that is to be drawn

> as close to Her as possible. All other wants and needs pale into

> utter insignificance in the light of the experience of true

> devotion to Kali, one that comes only after one has thrown

> away any and all ideas of personal power, magic, and the

> manipulation of the material plane by the casting of spells.

>

> --jody.

>

>

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[Guest guest]

I was very moved by your post here, I am a Neo-Pagan Kali priest. I agree with

your post with everything but this last few lines, (for me and only me I am

speaking) I am not arguing your post just expressing my beliefs, and hope to

learn more by the posts I read on this wonderful list.

 

 

John

one that comes only after one has thrownaway any and all ideas of personal

power, magic, and the manipulation of the material plane by the casting of

spells.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hey John.

 

The bottom line is that the Mahashakti is responsible for

all activity in the manifest universe, including the creation

and activity of neo-pagan Kali priests. Also, Indian tradition

and practice has no exclusive contract or licensing agreement

with Her. Neo-pagans are just as free to appropriate and syncretize

Her into their own ideology as anyone else.

 

However, in terms of the more famous shaktas of India: Ramakrishna,

Vivekananda, Sankara, Ramprasad and Kamala-kanta, etc., they

would all be completely horrified at the idea of asking Ma to

accomplish tasks for them, regardless of the intent of the request.

 

In my opinion, it is the antithesis of surrender to cast spells.

Such action completely ignores the omnipotence of the Mahashakti,

and in many ways, is just plain human arrogance and conceit.

 

I realize you may have only the best intentions in your heart

when you cast spells, but I feel compelled to point out the

futility of such, as I see it, with regards with what I've

come to understand and experience of shaktism.

 

So, keep up the good work. But in my opinion, if you *really*

want to get to know Ma as the shaktas of India have, you should

drop all spell making altogether, and reduce all your requests

of Her to this one: Ma, please grant me only total devotion and

surrender at your holy lotus feet.

 

The priests of India make requests of Ma for others all the time,

but they don't accomplish this by way of casting spells. They

simply put the request of the devotee in front of Ma, and let

Her take whatever action She manifests, completely regardless of

the outcome.

 

If you asked me, that's the only way real way to deal with Ma.

Give it all up, without *any* attachment to *any* outcome,

regardless of what is being requested at the time.

 

--jody.

 

Kali_Ma, John Soulard <johnsoulard> wrote:

 

> Hi Jody,

> I was very moved by your post here, I am a Neo-Pagan Kali priest.

> I agree with your post with everything but this last few lines,

> (for me and only me I am speaking) I am not arguing your post just

> expressing my beliefs, and hope to learn more by the posts I read

> on this wonderful list.

>

>

> John

>

>

>

> one that comes only after one has thrown

> away any and all ideas of personal power, magic, and the

> manipulation of the material plane by the casting of spells.

>

>

>

>

>

> Mail - 50x more storage than other provider

[Guest guest]

Jody,

thank you again for your post. I really appreciate the insight you have to share

and I love to learn form all sides so I can grow.

 

truly thank you

 

Johnjodyrrr <jodyrrr > wrote:

Hey John.The bottom line is that the Mahashakti is responsible forall activity

in the manifest universe, including the creationand activity of neo-pagan Kali

priests. Also, Indian tradition and practice has no exclusive contract or

licensing agreementwith Her. Neo-pagans are just as free to appropriate and

syncretizeHer into their own ideology as anyone else.However, in terms of the

more famous shaktas of India: Ramakrishna,Vivekananda, Sankara, Ramprasad and

Kamala-kanta, etc., theywould all be completely horrified at the idea of asking

Ma toaccomplish tasks for them, regardless of the intent of the request.In my

opinion, it is the antithesis of surrender to cast spells.Such action

completely ignores the omnipotence of the Mahashakti,and in many ways, is just

plain human arrogance and conceit.I realize

you may have only the best intentions in your heartwhen you cast spells, but I

feel compelled to point out thefutility of such, as I see it, with regards with

what I'vecome to understand and experience of shaktism.So, keep up the good

work. But in my opinion, if you *really*want to get to know Ma as the shaktas

of India have, you shoulddrop all spell making altogether, and reduce all your

requests of Her to this one: Ma, please grant me only total devotion and

surrender at your holy lotus feet.The priests of India make requests of Ma for

others all the time,but they don't accomplish this by way of casting spells.

Theysimply put the request of the devotee in front of Ma, and letHer take

whatever action She manifests, completely regardless ofthe outcome.If you asked

me, that's the only way real way to deal with Ma.Give it all up, without *any*

attachment to *any* outcome,regardless of what is being

requested at the time.--jody.Kali_Ma, John Soulard

<johnsoulard> wrote:> Hi Jody,> I was very moved by your post here, I am a

Neo-Pagan Kali priest. > I agree with your post with everything but this last

few lines, > (for me and only me I am speaking) I am not arguing your post just

> expressing my beliefs, and hope to learn more by the posts I read > on this

wonderful list.> > > John > > > > one that comes only after one has thrown>

away any and all ideas of personal power, magic, and the > manipulation of the

material plane by the casting of spells.> > > >

> > Mail - 50x more

storage than other providerDo

You ?

 

[Guest guest]

The Mahavidyas especially Chinnamasta grants siddhis. For me a lot of my magick

works and I do use Kali and she does answer me. She has gotten me out of a lot

of bad situations and potentially bad situations just by calling her name.

Though what you say is true for you and I respect that. I hope you can respect

what my beliefs as well as John's beliefs.

Hecate is not just another deity she like Tripura Sundari and Tripura Bhairavi,

Hecate is also the Queen of the 3 worlds. Magick is my life and my life is

magick. When i change things according to my will I create the act of that. My

spells as a witch is natural to me. Kali chose me to be this way. that is who I

am. I am a priestess as well. I have been initiated as a Grand High Priestess at

that. I chose Kali when I took that oath. I am also a priestess of Isis as well

and I do not considder her "just another deity".

Blessed be

and Jai ma Kali!

Kalimir John Soulard <johnsoulard > wrote:

Hi Jody,

I was very moved by your post here, I am a Neo-Pagan Kali priest. I agree with

your post with everything but this last few lines, (for me and only me I am

speaking) I am not arguing your post just expressing my beliefs, and hope to

learn more by the posts I read on this wonderful list.

 

 

John

one that comes only after one has thrownaway any and all ideas of personal

power, magic, and the manipulation of the material plane by the casting of

spells.

 

Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Enter now.

[Guest guest]

Kalimir

John Soulard <johnsoulard > wrote:

Jody,

thank you again for your post. I really appreciate the insight you have to share

and I love to learn form all sides so I can grow.

 

truly thank you

 

Johnjodyrrr <jodyrrr > wrote:

Hey John.The bottom line is that the Mahashakti is responsible forall activity

in the manifest universe, including the creationand activity of neo-pagan Kali

priests. Also, Indian tradition and practice has no exclusive contract or

licensing agreementwith Her. Neo-pagans are just as free to appropriate and

syncretizeHer into their own ideology as anyone else.However, in terms of the

more famous shaktas of India: Ramakrishna,Vivekananda, Sankara, Ramprasad and

Kamala-kanta, etc., theywould all be completely horrified at the idea of asking

Ma toaccomplish tasks for them, regardless of the intent of the request.In my

opinion, it is the antithesis of surrender to cast spells.Such action

completely ignores the omnipotence of the Mahashakti,and in many ways, is just

plain human arrogance and conceit.I realize

you may have only the best intentions in your heartwhen you cast spells, but I

feel compelled to point out thefutility of such, as I see it, with regards with

what I'vecome to understand and experience of shaktism.So, keep up the good

work. But in my opinion, if you *really*want to get to know Ma as the shaktas

of India have, you shoulddrop all spell making altogether, and reduce all your

requests of Her to this one: Ma, please grant me only total devotion and

surrender at your holy lotus feet.The priests of India make requests of Ma for

others all the time,but they don't accomplish this by way of casting spells.

Theysimply put the request of the devotee in front of Ma, and letHer take

whatever action She manifests, completely regardless ofthe outcome.If you asked

me, that's the only way real way to deal with Ma.Give it all up, without *any*

attachment to *any* outcome,regardless of what is being

requested at the time.--jody.Kali_Ma, John Soulard

<johnsoulard> wrote:> Hi Jody,> I was very moved by your post here, I am a

Neo-Pagan Kali priest. > I agree with your post with everything but this last

few lines, > (for me and only me I am speaking) I am not arguing your post just

> expressing my beliefs, and hope to learn more by the posts I read > on this

wonderful list.> > > John > > > > one that comes only after one has thrown>

away any and all ideas of personal power, magic, and the > manipulation of the

material plane by the casting of spells.> > > >

> > Mail - 50x more

storage than other provider

Tired of spam?

Mail has the best spam protection around

 

 

[Guest guest]

Jodi,

 

Thank you for your post, you have brought clarity to quandary I have been

having. Pieces that didn't seem to fit are making much more sense now.

 

Namaste',

Sue

 

 

"Your vision will become clear only when you look into your heart. Who looks

outside, dreams. Who looks inside, awakens." ~Carl Gustav Jung

-

jodyrrr

Kali_Ma

Thursday, August 26, 2004 1:59 PM

The Mahashakti vs. Just Another Deity

There's a common misconception in American Neo-paganismthat Kali is a deity one

can call in to help completecertain tasks. While the intellectual conceit may

helpone to establish a belief in their imagined power, the fact is that Kali as

envisioned by the neo-pagans has very littleto do with Kali as envisioned by

shaktas.To a shakta, Kali is everything. There are no other deitiesto call in,

and there is no reason to call Her in, as Shehas already got all the bases

covered.Asking Kali to do something for you is like asking the skyto remain

blue. Everything is getting done by Her already.To a shakta, there is only one

thing a sincere devotee canever ask of Her, and that is for complete and total

surrenderto Her. This is already the state of all apparent beingsas it stands,

yet there is the possibility of an experienceof this in the form of a shakta's

devotion.Ramakrishna said to never ask Ma for anything except moredevotion. He

used the example of a kitten as an illustrationof this. He pointed out that all

a kitten has to do is go"mew, mew." Everything that they need is taken care of

outof this simple request. They don't have to ask for more power,or a romantic

partner, or a better job, or world peace. Allof that kitten's needs are handled

by their simple request to their mother. Furthermore, the kitten knows that its

motheris much better qualified to make decisions about which wantsand needs are

to be fulfilled, and which aren't, despite whatthe kitten may or may not want

for itself.As apparent individuals, we have many wants and needs we aretrying

to get met. But if we are to consider ourselves true shaktas, as the practice

has evolved in India, there is only one thing we should ever ask of Ma, and

that is to be drawn as close to Her as possible. All other wants and needs

pale intoutter insignificance in the light of the experience of truedevotion to

Kali, one that comes only after one has thrownaway any and all ideas of personal

power, magic, and the manipulation of the material plane by the casting of

spells.--jody.

[Guest guest]

Hi Sue.

 

I'm glad the words are working for you. I enjoy putting

these thoughts to the screen.

 

Take care.

 

--jody.

 

Kali_Ma, "Sue Sullivan" <frausull@a...> wrote:

> Jodi,

>

> Thank you for your post, you have brought clarity to quandary

> I have been having. Pieces that didn't seem to fit are making

> much more sense now.

>

> Namaste',

> Sue

>

>

> "Your vision will become clear only when you look into your heart.

Who looks outside, dreams. Who looks inside, awakens."

> ~Carl Gustav Jung

>

> -

> jodyrrr

> Kali_Ma

> Thursday, August 26, 2004 1:59 PM

> The Mahashakti vs. Just Another Deity

>

>

> There's a common misconception in American Neo-paganism

> that Kali is a deity one can call in to help complete

> certain tasks. While the intellectual conceit may help

> one to establish a belief in their imagined power, the fact

> is that Kali as envisioned by the neo-pagans has very little

> to do with Kali as envisioned by shaktas.

>

> To a shakta, Kali is everything. There are no other deities

> to call in, and there is no reason to call Her in, as She

> has already got all the bases covered.

>

> Asking Kali to do something for you is like asking the sky

> to remain blue. Everything is getting done by Her already.

> To a shakta, there is only one thing a sincere devotee can

> ever ask of Her, and that is for complete and total surrender

> to Her. This is already the state of all apparent beings

> as it stands, yet there is the possibility of an experience

> of this in the form of a shakta's devotion.

>

> Ramakrishna said to never ask Ma for anything except more

> devotion. He used the example of a kitten as an illustration

> of this. He pointed out that all a kitten has to do is go

> "mew, mew." Everything that they need is taken care of out

> of this simple request. They don't have to ask for more power,

> or a romantic partner, or a better job, or world peace. All

> of that kitten's needs are handled by their simple request to

> their mother. Furthermore, the kitten knows that its mother

> is much better qualified to make decisions about which wants

> and needs are to be fulfilled, and which aren't, despite what

> the kitten may or may not want for itself.

>

> As apparent individuals, we have many wants and needs we are

> trying to get met. But if we are to consider ourselves

> true shaktas, as the practice has evolved in India, there is

> only one thing we should ever ask of Ma, and that is to be drawn

> as close to Her as possible. All other wants and needs pale into

> utter insignificance in the light of the experience of true

> devotion to Kali, one that comes only after one has thrown

> away any and all ideas of personal power, magic, and the

> manipulation of the material plane by the casting of spells.

>

> --jody.

>

>

> Sponsor

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

 

> Links

>

>

> Kali_Ma/

>

> b..

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Service.

[Guest guest]

Kali_Ma, sarina Helton <forestowl2> wrote:

 

> You present a very intellectuall point.

> if I realize that everything I do is Kali then casting a spell

> is her will. Who is to say that she is not the reason I'm casting

> the spell in the first place.

 

She is the reason for everything, including your casting of spells.

However, as a proponent of shaktism as expounded by Ramakrishna,

such activity is not, in any way, shape, or form, an act of

surrender.

 

Think about it. You as an individual come to decide that you

want to change something. If Kali is the manifestor of all

activity, why would a surrendered devotee want to change that?

 

Regardless of the positive or negative effects of Her activity

in yours, or anyone else's life, it's all Ma. To ask Her to

do something specific for you is disregarding Her wisdom in place

of your own.

 

For instance, right now I'm running a 103 degree fever. I

definitely want to change that as I'm very uncomfortable at the

moment. However, I would never in a million years ask Ma to do

so for me. If I end up dying as a result of this infection, I

know that was Ma's will for me. This is what Ramakrishna meant

by surrender.

 

> Aside from that, I really don't know a lot about her mythology in

> India, I only know what she has shown me. One of the things is

> that, being her daughter, I should take control of myself and be a

> powerful woman. In so being a powerful woman Kali manifests

> through me.

 

That's certainly a primary aspect of Kali as She is emerging in the

West, as a symbol of feminine power and value and a motivating factor

in the improvement of people's lives.

 

> I love learning about Indian culture, but I believe that religious

> groups in India do not have a franchise over Kali any more than the

> Pope has a franchise over Mary (or Britney Spears for that matter

> ;0) )

> Sarina

 

I totally agree, Sarina. Ma will take whoever comes to Her with

whatever they have to offer of themselves. I only mean to point

out that casting spells is not, in any way, shape or form, an

act of surrender to Ma, as the practice as been expounded by

the great shaktas of India. In other words, cast away to your

heart's content. However, doing so is a much lower and trivial

form of devotion, in my opinion, than just leaving everything

ENTIRELY up to Her.

 

--jody.

 

> jodyrrr <jodyrrr> wrote:

> I think you misunderstood the intent of my post, Sarina.

>

> I'm not arguing for the neo-pagan view, I'm trying to make

> it clear that neo-pagans have Kali wrong, at least in terms

> of Her mythology and iconography as it exists in Her home

> culture in India.

>

> For instance, you call in Kali when you are casting a spell.

> What are you casting a spell for? If Kali as the Mahashakti

> is the cause of everything that happens, why would you want

> to change that, or why would you even try?

>

> The point I'm trying to make is that for a true shakta, as

> the practice is defined in India, casting a spell is one of

> the most trivial and petty actions one can take. It is the

> opposite of the act of surrender to attempt to wield influence

> over the material plane in this way, especially given the

> fact that Ma's got it all under control already.

>

> In other words, casting spells and Kali have as much to

> do with one another as the Pope has with Britney Spears,

> in my opinion.

>

> Of course, everyone is free to do whatever they want with

> whatever they believe. Kali as a cultural phenomenon has

> got a lot of traction in the West as a result of the neo-

> pagan fascination with Her. I'm only trying to make it

> clear that their "uses" for Kali have practically nothing

> to do with Kali as She exists in India, in terms of the

> mythology and iconography which evolved there.

>

> --jody.

>

>

> Kali_Ma, sarina Helton <forestowl2> wrote:

> > I don't really know how anyone else views Kali, I only know what

> > she has shown to me. If "neo-pagans" feel that they need to make

> > a formal call to Kali to focus their intent than that is what they

> need to do.

> > To each their own worship and growth.

> > I personally feel that when I am casting a spell, or drawing down

> the moon, or anything else similary that I happen to do, It helps me

> to focus by making a formal invatation to Kali. I know she is always

> everywhere, but for concentration sake I call her, or put her picture

> in front of me when I meditate. It simply gives me focus.

> >

> > Just to clairfy, I didn't get on a particular religious

> right. I thought I was getting on a Kali group. Sorry If I

> misunderstood.

> >

> > Sarina

> > <jodyrrr> wrote:

> > There's a common misconception in American Neo-paganism

> > that Kali is a deity one can call in to help complete

> > certain tasks. While the intellectual conceit may help

> > one to establish a belief in their imagined power, the fact

> > is that Kali as envisioned by the neo-pagans has very little

> > to do with Kali as envisioned by shaktas.

> >

> > To a shakta, Kali is everything. There are no other deities

> > to call in, and there is no reason to call Her in, as She

> > has already got all the bases covered.

> >

> > Asking Kali to do something for you is like asking the sky

> > to remain blue. Everything is getting done by Her already.

> > To a shakta, there is only one thing a sincere devotee can

> > ever ask of Her, and that is for complete and total surrender

> > to Her. This is already the state of all apparent beings

> > as it stands, yet there is the possibility of an experience

> > of this in the form of a shakta's devotion.

> >

> > Ramakrishna said to never ask Ma for anything except more

> > devotion. He used the example of a kitten as an illustration

> > of this. He pointed out that all a kitten has to do is go

> > "mew, mew." Everything that they need is taken care of out

> > of this simple request. They don't have to ask for more power,

> > or a romantic partner, or a better job, or world peace. All

> > of that kitten's needs are handled by their simple request to

> > their mother. Furthermore, the kitten knows that its mother

> > is much better qualified to make decisions about which wants

> > and needs are to be fulfilled, and which aren't, despite what

> > the kitten may or may not want for itself.

> >

> > As apparent individuals, we have many wants and needs we are

> > trying to get met. But if we are to consider ourselves

> > true shaktas, as the practice has evolved in India, there is

> > only one thing we should ever ask of Ma, and that is to be drawn

> > as close to Her as possible. All other wants and needs pale into

> > utter insignificance in the light of the experience of true

> > devotion to Kali, one that comes only after one has thrown

> > away any and all ideas of personal power, magic, and the

> > manipulation of the material plane by the casting of spells.

> >

> > --jody.

> >

> >

> > Sponsor

> >

> >

> >

> > Links

> >

> >

> > Kali_Ma/

> >

> >

> > Kali_Ma

> >

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Service.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > New and Improved Mail - Send 10MB messages!

>

>

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>

>

>

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>

[Guest guest]

alters as well. Kali is spreading like the wind across many countries and

religions and this is probably what she had intended. This may just be Her

Divine Will. sarina Helton <forestowl2 > wrote:

You present a very intellectuall point.

if I realize that everything I do is Kali then casting a spell is her will.

Who is to say that she is not the reason I'm casting the spell in the first

place.

Aside from that, I really don't know a lot about her mythology in India, I only

know what she has shown me. One of the things is that, being her daughter, I

should take control of myself and be a powerful woman. In so being a powerful

woman Kali manifests through me.

 

I love learning about Indian culture, but I believe that religious groups in

India do not have a franchise over Kali any more than the Pope has a franchise

over Mary (or Britney Spears for that matter ;0) )

Sarinajodyrrr <jodyrrr > wrote:

I think you misunderstood the intent of my post, Sarina.I'm not arguing for the

neo-pagan view, I'm trying to makeit clear that neo-pagans have Kali wrong, at

least in termsof Her mythology and iconography as it exists in Her homeculture

in India.For instance, you call in Kali when you are casting a spell.What are

you casting a spell for? If Kali as the Mahashaktiis the cause of everything

that happens, why would you wantto change that, or why would you even try?The

point I'm trying to make is that for a true shakta, asthe practice is defined

in India, casting a spell is one ofthe most trivial and petty actions one can

take. It is theopposite of the act of surrender to attempt to wield

influenceover the material plane in this way, especially given the fact that

Ma's got it all under control

already.In other words, casting spells and Kali have as much to do with one

another as the Pope has with Britney Spears,in my opinion.Of course, everyone

is free to do whatever they want withwhatever they believe. Kali as a cultural

phenomenon hasgot a lot of traction in the West as a result of the neo-pagan

fascination with Her. I'm only trying to make it clear that their "uses" for

Kali have practically nothingto do with Kali as She exists in India, in terms

of themythology and iconography which evolved there.--jody.--- In

Kali_Ma, sarina Helton <forestowl2> wrote:> I don't really

know how anyone else views Kali, I only know what > she has shown to me. If

"neo-pagans" feel that they need to make > a formal call to Kali to focus their

intent than that is what theyneed to do. > To each their own worship and

growth. > I

personally feel that when I am casting a spell, or drawing downthe moon, or

anything else similary that I happen to do, It helps meto focus by making a

formal invatation to Kali. I know she is alwayseverywhere, but for

concentration sake I call her, or put her picturein front of me when I

meditate. It simply gives me focus.> > Just to clairfy, I didn't get on a

particular religious right. I thought I was getting on a Kali

group. Sorry If Imisunderstood.> > Sarina> <jodyrrr> wrote:> There's a

common misconception in American Neo-paganism> that Kali is a deity one can

call in to help complete> certain tasks. While the intellectual conceit may

help> one to establish a belief in their imagined power, the fact > is that

Kali as envisioned by the neo-pagans has very little> to do with Kali as

envisioned by

shaktas.> > To a shakta, Kali is everything. There are no other deities> to

call in, and there is no reason to call Her in, as She> has already got all the

bases covered.> > Asking Kali to do something for you is like asking the sky> to

remain blue. Everything is getting done by Her already.> To a shakta, there is

only one thing a sincere devotee can> ever ask of Her, and that is for complete

and total surrender> to Her. This is already the state of all apparent beings>

as it stands, yet there is the possibility of an experience> of this in the

form of a shakta's devotion.> > Ramakrishna said to never ask Ma for anything

except more> devotion. He used the example of a kitten as an illustration> of

this. He pointed out that all a kitten has to do is go> "mew, mew."

Everything that they need is taken care of out> of this

simple request. They don't have to ask for more power,> or a romantic partner,

or a better job, or world peace. All> of that kitten's needs are handled by

their simple request to > their mother. Furthermore, the kitten knows that its

mother> is much better qualified to make decisions about which wants> and needs

are to be fulfilled, and which aren't, despite what> the kitten may or may not

want for itself.> > As apparent individuals, we have many wants and needs we

are> trying to get met. But if we are to consider ourselves > true shaktas, as

the practice has evolved in India, there is > only one thing we should ever ask

of Ma, and that is to be drawn > as close to Her as possible. All other wants

and needs pale into> utter insignificance in the light of the experience of

true> devotion to Kali, one that comes only after one has thrown> away any and

all ideas of personal power, magic, and the > manipulation of the material plane

by the casting of spells.> > --jody.> > > Sponsor> >

> > Links> > To visit your

group on the web, go to:> Kali_Ma/> > To

from this group, send an email to:>

Kali_Ma> > Your use of is

subject to the > > > >

> > New and Improved Mail

- Send 10MB messages!

 

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[Guest guest]

Jody.

I am a Reiki III. I can send distance Reiki. It's not magick, It's Japanese.

Would you like me to send Reiki. It may help you fever, no promises though.

 

 

SArina

 

New and Improved Mail - Send 10MB messages!

[Guest guest]

Kali_Ma, Maha Kali Tara Ma <jai_ma_kali>

wrote:

> I am actually loving this discussion. I see you point Jody but

> thats like saying when i have a tooth ache "I wont go to the

> dentist as Ma has it under control" or when a woman has breast

> cancer she wont see a doctor as Ma has it under control.

 

That's not what I'm saying, Kalimir. Believe me, I'm going

to be at the doctor's tomorrow if I make it through the night.

However, it's just not a matter I'd ever put to Ma, even if I

was on my deathbed.

 

Not having ever been on a deathbed, it's difficult to predict

what I would do in that situation. But if I did ask Ma to save

my life, such would not be an act of surrender to Her as

defined by the shaktas Ramakrishna, Vivekananda, Ramprasad, etc.

 

> When i enchant an herbal drink to help heal myself is just as valid

> as going to a doctor to get medicines. Bottom line for me

> God/Goddess helps those who helps themselves. In fact one of the

> oldest religions is actuall Strega which is Witchcraft and not to

> be confused with Wicca which is a nice and valid religion but Wicca

> was formed in the 1950's. Kali is all things for me and she gave

> me the path of being a Witch and Magician. Some will take the path

> of Hinduism, some will take the path of being a Christian, others

> will take the path of Santaria and all will debate or discuss why

> their beliefs are valid. Neo pagans are not the only one taking an

> interest in Kali some folks in Haiti who practice Vudu have Kali on

> their alters as well. Kali is spreading like the wind across many

> countries and religions and this is probably what she had intended.

> This may just be Her Divine Will.

 

There is nothing, not a solitary, single thing, that is not

Her will, including any resistance that comes up against Her

adoption by other cultures.

 

--jody.

 

>

> sarina Helton <forestowl2> wrote: You present a very

intellectuall point.

> if I realize that everything I do is Kali then casting a spell is

her will. Who is to say that she is not the reason I'm casting the

spell in the first place.

> Aside from that, I really don't know a lot about her mythology in

India, I only know what she has shown me. One of the things is that,

being her daughter, I should take control of myself and be a powerful

woman. In so being a powerful woman Kali manifests through me.

>

> I love learning about Indian culture, but I believe that religious

groups in India do not have a franchise over Kali any more than the

Pope has a franchise over Mary (or Britney Spears for that matter ;0) )

> Sarina

> jodyrrr <jodyrrr> wrote:

> I think you misunderstood the intent of my post, Sarina.

>

> I'm not arguing for the neo-pagan view, I'm trying to make

> it clear that neo-pagans have Kali wrong, at least in terms

> of Her mythology and iconography as it exists in Her home

> culture in India.

>

> For instance, you call in Kali when you are casting a spell.

> What are you casting a spell for? If Kali as the Mahashakti

> is the cause of everything that happens, why would you want

> to change that, or why would you even try?

>

> The point I'm trying to make is that for a true shakta, as

> the practice is defined in India, casting a spell is one of

> the most trivial and petty actions one can take. It is the

> opposite of the act of surrender to attempt to wield influence

> over the material plane in this way, especially given the

> fact that Ma's got it all under control already.

>

> In other words, casting spells and Kali have as much to

> do with one another as the Pope has with Britney Spears,

> in my opinion.

>

> Of course, everyone is free to do whatever they want with

> whatever they believe. Kali as a cultural phenomenon has

> got a lot of traction in the West as a result of the neo-

> pagan fascination with Her. I'm only trying to make it

> clear that their "uses" for Kali have practically nothing

> to do with Kali as She exists in India, in terms of the

> mythology and iconography which evolved there.

>

> --jody.

>

>

> Kali_Ma, sarina Helton <forestowl2> wrote:

> > I don't really know how anyone else views Kali, I only know what

> > she has shown to me. If "neo-pagans" feel that they need to make

> > a formal call to Kali to focus their intent than that is what they

> need to do.

> > To each their own worship and growth.

> > I personally feel that when I am casting a spell, or drawing down

> the moon, or anything else similary that I happen to do, It helps me

> to focus by making a formal invatation to Kali. I know she is always

> everywhere, but for concentration sake I call her, or put her picture

> in front of me when I meditate. It simply gives me focus.

> >

> > Just to clairfy, I didn't get on a particular religious

> right. I thought I was getting on a Kali group. Sorry If I

> misunderstood.

> >

> > Sarina

> > <jodyrrr> wrote:

> > There's a common misconception in American Neo-paganism

> > that Kali is a deity one can call in to help complete

> > certain tasks. While the intellectual conceit may help

> > one to establish a belief in their imagined power, the fact

> > is that Kali as envisioned by the neo-pagans has very little

> > to do with Kali as envisioned by shaktas.

> >

> > To a shakta, Kali is everything. There are no other deities

> > to call in, and there is no reason to call Her in, as She

> > has already got all the bases covered.

> >

> > Asking Kali to do something for you is like asking the sky

> > to remain blue. Everything is getting done by Her already.

> > To a shakta, there is only one thing a sincere devotee can

> > ever ask of Her, and that is for complete and total surrender

> > to Her. This is already the state of all apparent beings

> > as it stands, yet there is the possibility of an experience

> > of this in the form of a shakta's devotion.

> >

> > Ramakrishna said to never ask Ma for anything except more

> > devotion. He used the example of a kitten as an illustration

> > of this. He pointed out that all a kitten has to do is go

> > "mew, mew." Everything that they need is taken care of out

> > of this simple request. They don't have to ask for more power,

> > or a romantic partner, or a better job, or world peace. All

> > of that kitten's needs are handled by their simple request to

> > their mother. Furthermore, the kitten knows that its mother

> > is much better qualified to make decisions about which wants

> > and needs are to be fulfilled, and which aren't, despite what

> > the kitten may or may not want for itself.

> >

> > As apparent individuals, we have many wants and needs we are

> > trying to get met. But if we are to consider ourselves

> > true shaktas, as the practice has evolved in India, there is

> > only one thing we should ever ask of Ma, and that is to be drawn

> > as close to Her as possible. All other wants and needs pale into

> > utter insignificance in the light of the experience of true

> > devotion to Kali, one that comes only after one has thrown

> > away any and all ideas of personal power, magic, and the

> > manipulation of the material plane by the casting of spells.

> >

> > --jody.

> >

> >

> > Sponsor

> >

> >

> >

> > Links

> >

> >

> > Kali_Ma/

> >

> >

> > Kali_Ma

> >

> > Terms of

Service.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > New and Improved Mail - Send 10MB messages!

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Sponsor

>

>

>

> Links

>

>

> Kali_Ma/

>

>

> Kali_Ma

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Enter now.

[Guest guest]

Kali_Ma, sarina Helton <forestowl2> wrote:

>

> Jody.

>

> I am a Reiki III. I can send distance Reiki. It's not magick,

> It's Japanese. Would you like me to send Reiki. It may help you

> fever, no promises though.

 

This is very generous of you Sarina. I'll take whatever help

I can get at the moment.

 

Thanks so much for the gracious offer.

 

--jody.

 

>

>

>

>

> SArina

>

>

>

>

>

>

> New and Improved Mail - Send 10MB messages!

[Guest guest]

I have been told by Indian-born Shaktas that, while Kali is the source of

all boons, she is also (eventually) the remover of all things. Her

devotees can offer her those aspects of their life and personality which

they want to get rid of.

 

"Mother, take away my pain."

"Ma, please remove my bad habits."

"Mataji, banish my fear."

 

Such offerings are accepted by Kali Ma as gratefully as she accepts an

offering of incense, flowers, or the waving of lamps. Or (in some

temples) the sacrifice of an animal.

 

One of the prayers to Kali says that real animals should not be

sacrificed to Her. Rather, see your anger as a waterbuffalo given to Her

in sacrifice, your jealousy as a camel offered to Her, your greed as a

cat presented to Her, and so forth.

 

Be ever mindful that everything, good and bad, is a gift from Kali. And

that nothing is eternal but Her. Ramakrishna had a vision of Kali as a

pregnant mother emerging from the sea, giving birth and suckling her

child, then growing fangs and devouring the child, and returning into the

ocean.

 

-- Len/ Kalipadma

 

 

 

On Thu, 26 Aug 2004 17:59:42 -0000 "jodyrrr" <jodyrrr writes:

> There's a common misconception in American Neo-paganism

> that Kali is a deity one can call in to help complete

> certain tasks. While the intellectual conceit may help

> one to establish a belief in their imagined power, the fact

> is that Kali as envisioned by the neo-pagans has very little

> to do with Kali as envisioned by shaktas.

>

> To a shakta, Kali is everything. There are no other deities

> to call in, and there is no reason to call Her in, as She

> has already got all the bases covered.

>

> Asking Kali to do something for you is like asking the sky

> to remain blue. Everything is getting done by Her already.

> To a shakta, there is only one thing a sincere devotee can

> ever ask of Her, and that is for complete and total surrender

> to Her. This is already the state of all apparent beings

> as it stands, yet there is the possibility of an experience

> of this in the form of a shakta's devotion.

>

> Ramakrishna said to never ask Ma for anything except more

> devotion. He used the example of a kitten as an illustration

> of this. He pointed out that all a kitten has to do is go

> "mew, mew." Everything that they need is taken care of out

> of this simple request. They don't have to ask for more power,

> or a romantic partner, or a better job, or world peace. All

> of that kitten's needs are handled by their simple request to

> their mother. Furthermore, the kitten knows that its mother

> is much better qualified to make decisions about which wants

> and needs are to be fulfilled, and which aren't, despite what

> the kitten may or may not want for itself.

>

> As apparent individuals, we have many wants and needs we are

> trying to get met. But if we are to consider ourselves

> true shaktas, as the practice has evolved in India, there is

> only one thing we should ever ask of Ma, and that is to be drawn

> as close to Her as possible. All other wants and needs pale into

> utter insignificance in the light of the experience of true

> devotion to Kali, one that comes only after one has thrown

> away any and all ideas of personal power, magic, and the

> manipulation of the material plane by the casting of spells.

>

> --jody.

>

>

>

> ------------------------ Sponsor

> --------------------~-->

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> Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free!

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>

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>

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>

>

>

 

 

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Kali Ma is also a primary deity of the cult of Tantra. While Westerners

mis-understand Tantra to be about sexual practices, Easterners often

mis-understand Tantra to be about... spellcasting!

 

Tantra of course is much more complex than either such simplistic view,

but if you read books like Dr. L.R. Chawdhry's "Practicals of Tantra,"

you will find many ancient examples of spellcasting for particular

purposes (most of them falling under the description of <maleficia>!),

and some of them explicitly invoke the goddess as Kali. Kali's withered

crone aspect, Chamunda, rules the reproductive bodily fluids, and she is

especially invoked to ask for getting pregnant and having many children.

Raksha-Kali can be invoked to offer protection to her devotees.

 

-- Len/ Kalipadma

 

 

On Fri, 27 Aug 2004 01:53:17 -0000 "jodyrrr" <jodyrrr writes:

> Hey John.

>

> The bottom line is that the Mahashakti is responsible for

> all activity in the manifest universe, including the creation

> and activity of neo-pagan Kali priests. Also, Indian tradition

> and practice has no exclusive contract or licensing agreement

> with Her. Neo-pagans are just as free to appropriate and syncretize

> Her into their own ideology as anyone else.

>

> However, in terms of the more famous shaktas of India: Ramakrishna,

> Vivekananda, Sankara, Ramprasad and Kamala-kanta, etc., they

> would all be completely horrified at the idea of asking Ma to

> accomplish tasks for them, regardless of the intent of the request.

>

> In my opinion, it is the antithesis of surrender to cast spells.

> Such action completely ignores the omnipotence of the Mahashakti,

> and in many ways, is just plain human arrogance and conceit.

>

> I realize you may have only the best intentions in your heart

> when you cast spells, but I feel compelled to point out the

> futility of such, as I see it, with regards with what I've

> come to understand and experience of shaktism.

>

> So, keep up the good work. But in my opinion, if you *really*

> want to get to know Ma as the shaktas of India have, you should

> drop all spell making altogether, and reduce all your requests

> of Her to this one: Ma, please grant me only total devotion and

> surrender at your holy lotus feet.

>

> The priests of India make requests of Ma for others all the time,

> but they don't accomplish this by way of casting spells. They

> simply put the request of the devotee in front of Ma, and let

> Her take whatever action She manifests, completely regardless of

> the outcome.

>

> If you asked me, that's the only way real way to deal with Ma.

> Give it all up, without *any* attachment to *any* outcome,

> regardless of what is being requested at the time.

>

> --jody.

>

> Kali_Ma, John Soulard <johnsoulard>

> wrote:

>

> > Hi Jody,

> > I was very moved by your post here, I am a Neo-Pagan Kali priest.

> > I agree with your post with everything but this last few lines,

> > (for me and only me I am speaking) I am not arguing your post just

>

> > expressing my beliefs, and hope to learn more by the posts I read

> > on this wonderful list.

> >

> >

> > John

> >

> >

> >

> > one that comes only after one has thrown

> > away any and all ideas of personal power, magic, and the

> > manipulation of the material plane by the casting of spells.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Mail - 50x more storage than other provider

>

>

>

> ------------------------ Sponsor

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>

>

>

> Links

>

>

>

>

>

>

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Kali_Ma, kalipadma@j... wrote:

>

> I have been told by Indian-born Shaktas that, while Kali is

> the source of all boons, she is also (eventually) the remover

> of all things. Her devotees can offer her those aspects of their

> life and personality which they want to get rid of.

>

> "Mother, take away my pain."

> "Ma, please remove my bad habits."

> "Mataji, banish my fear."

>

> Such offerings are accepted by Kali Ma as gratefully as she accepts

> an offering of incense, flowers, or the waving of lamps. Or (in

> some temples) the sacrifice of an animal.

 

While such may be the custom of some shaktas in India, to ask

Ma for relief is not surrender as expounded by Ramakrishna, in

my opinion.

 

In other words, difficult circumstances can be constructive

as much as they may appear to be destructive.

 

> One of the prayers to Kali says that real animals should not be

> sacrificed to Her. Rather, see your anger as a waterbuffalo given

> to Her in sacrifice, your jealousy as a camel offered to Her, your

> greed as a cat presented to Her, and so forth.

 

And all that can be covered by asking for surrender and devotion.

In other words, all will fall into place with devotion, despite

what we think we may want or need.

 

> Be ever mindful that everything, good and bad, is a gift from Kali.

> And that nothing is eternal but Her.

 

Well, Brahman is unborn. That's eternal too.

 

> Ramakrishna had a vision of

> Kali as a pregnant mother emerging from the sea, giving birth and

> suckling her child, then growing fangs and devouring the child,

> and returning into the ocean.

>

> -- Len/ Kalipadma

 

If someone asks me to describe the Mahashakti, I tell them to

think of a gigantic black hole at the center of a gigantic

galaxy, swallowing whole star systems and civilizations,

wholesale.

 

--jody.

 

>

>

> On Thu, 26 Aug 2004 17:59:42 -0000 "jodyrrr" <jodyrrr> writes:

> > There's a common misconception in American Neo-paganism

> > that Kali is a deity one can call in to help complete

> > certain tasks. While the intellectual conceit may help

> > one to establish a belief in their imagined power, the fact

> > is that Kali as envisioned by the neo-pagans has very little

> > to do with Kali as envisioned by shaktas.

> >

> > To a shakta, Kali is everything. There are no other deities

> > to call in, and there is no reason to call Her in, as She

> > has already got all the bases covered.

> >

> > Asking Kali to do something for you is like asking the sky

> > to remain blue. Everything is getting done by Her already.

> > To a shakta, there is only one thing a sincere devotee can

> > ever ask of Her, and that is for complete and total surrender

> > to Her. This is already the state of all apparent beings

> > as it stands, yet there is the possibility of an experience

> > of this in the form of a shakta's devotion.

> >

> > Ramakrishna said to never ask Ma for anything except more

> > devotion. He used the example of a kitten as an illustration

> > of this. He pointed out that all a kitten has to do is go

> > "mew, mew." Everything that they need is taken care of out

> > of this simple request. They don't have to ask for more power,

> > or a romantic partner, or a better job, or world peace. All

> > of that kitten's needs are handled by their simple request to

> > their mother. Furthermore, the kitten knows that its mother

> > is much better qualified to make decisions about which wants

> > and needs are to be fulfilled, and which aren't, despite what

> > the kitten may or may not want for itself.

> >

> > As apparent individuals, we have many wants and needs we are

> > trying to get met. But if we are to consider ourselves

> > true shaktas, as the practice has evolved in India, there is

> > only one thing we should ever ask of Ma, and that is to be drawn

> > as close to Her as possible. All other wants and needs pale into

> > utter insignificance in the light of the experience of true

> > devotion to Kali, one that comes only after one has thrown

> > away any and all ideas of personal power, magic, and the

> > manipulation of the material plane by the casting of spells.

> >

> > --jody.

> >

> >

> >

> > ------------------------ Sponsor

> > --------------------~-->

> > Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Companion Toolbar.

> > Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free!

> > http://us.click./L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/CSdplB/TM

> >

--~->

>

> >

> >

> >

> > Links

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

>

> ______________

> The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand!

> Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER!

> Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today!

[Guest guest]

You mentioned ;

 

One of the prayers to Kali says that real animals should not besacrificed to

Her. Rather, see your anger as a waterbuffalo given to Herin sacrifice, your

jealousy as a camel offered to Her, your greed as a cat presented to Her, and

so forth.

 

Could you share with us which prayers are you refering to here?

 

Jai Maa!!!

 

 

 

 

 

Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Enter now.

[Guest guest]

I've a friend who is a native Keralan tantric shaman.

He has described epic battles between witches and shamans

of the surrounding villages. If you asked me, it's the

same village superstitions one might find in rural Mexico.

In other words, it's mythological nonsense. But you are

correct in that such practices do exist, and that Kali

in one of Her forms may be invoked in the process.

 

In my experience, and according to the Indologist Jeff

Kripal, tantra is primarily about transgression. In

other words, despite all the complicated rituals and

ideologies, tantra is really just about getting outside

yourself by doing things that are inappropriate to the

cultural envelope you inhabit. This serves to loosen

attachment to definitions of personal identity, as such

is defined primarily by cultural influence. Thus, a

brahmin eats meat during the chakra, violating caste and

taking him/her outside the idea that they are their

caste, or that their caste defines them as beings.

 

--jody.

 

Kali_Ma, kalipadma@j... wrote:

>

> Kali Ma is also a primary deity of the cult of Tantra. While Westerners

> mis-understand Tantra to be about sexual practices, Easterners often

> mis-understand Tantra to be about... spellcasting!

>

> Tantra of course is much more complex than either such simplistic view,

> but if you read books like Dr. L.R. Chawdhry's "Practicals of Tantra,"

> you will find many ancient examples of spellcasting for particular

> purposes (most of them falling under the description of <maleficia>!),

> and some of them explicitly invoke the goddess as Kali. Kali's withered

> crone aspect, Chamunda, rules the reproductive bodily fluids, and she is

> especially invoked to ask for getting pregnant and having many

children.

> Raksha-Kali can be invoked to offer protection to her devotees.

>

> -- Len/ Kalipadma

>

>

> On Fri, 27 Aug 2004 01:53:17 -0000 "jodyrrr" <jodyrrr> writes:

> > Hey John.

> >

> > The bottom line is that the Mahashakti is responsible for

> > all activity in the manifest universe, including the creation

> > and activity of neo-pagan Kali priests. Also, Indian tradition

> > and practice has no exclusive contract or licensing agreement

> > with Her. Neo-pagans are just as free to appropriate and syncretize

> > Her into their own ideology as anyone else.

> >

> > However, in terms of the more famous shaktas of India: Ramakrishna,

> > Vivekananda, Sankara, Ramprasad and Kamala-kanta, etc., they

> > would all be completely horrified at the idea of asking Ma to

> > accomplish tasks for them, regardless of the intent of the request.

> >

> > In my opinion, it is the antithesis of surrender to cast spells.

> > Such action completely ignores the omnipotence of the Mahashakti,

> > and in many ways, is just plain human arrogance and conceit.

> >

> > I realize you may have only the best intentions in your heart

> > when you cast spells, but I feel compelled to point out the

> > futility of such, as I see it, with regards with what I've

> > come to understand and experience of shaktism.

> >

> > So, keep up the good work. But in my opinion, if you *really*

> > want to get to know Ma as the shaktas of India have, you should

> > drop all spell making altogether, and reduce all your requests

> > of Her to this one: Ma, please grant me only total devotion and

> > surrender at your holy lotus feet.

> >

> > The priests of India make requests of Ma for others all the time,

> > but they don't accomplish this by way of casting spells. They

> > simply put the request of the devotee in front of Ma, and let

> > Her take whatever action She manifests, completely regardless of

> > the outcome.

> >

> > If you asked me, that's the only way real way to deal with Ma.

> > Give it all up, without *any* attachment to *any* outcome,

> > regardless of what is being requested at the time.

> >

> > --jody.

> >

> > Kali_Ma, John Soulard <johnsoulard>

> > wrote:

> >

> > > Hi Jody,

> > > I was very moved by your post here, I am a Neo-Pagan Kali priest.

> > > I agree with your post with everything but this last few lines,

> > > (for me and only me I am speaking) I am not arguing your post just

> >

> > > expressing my beliefs, and hope to learn more by the posts I read

> > > on this wonderful list.

> > >

> > >

> > > John

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > one that comes only after one has thrown

> > > away any and all ideas of personal power, magic, and the

> > > manipulation of the material plane by the casting of spells.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Mail - 50x more storage than other provider

> >

> >

> >

> > ------------------------ Sponsor

> > --------------------~-->

> > Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Companion Toolbar.

> > Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free!

> > http://us.click./L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/CSdplB/TM

> >

--~->

>

> >

> >

> >

> > Links

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

>

> ______________

> The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand!

> Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER!

> Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today!

[Guest guest]

My books are mostly in storage, but the shlokas were translated in

Woodruffe's "Hymns to Kali."

 

-- Len/ Kalipadma

 

On Thu, 26 Aug 2004 22:43:07 -0700 (PDT) kanna krishnan

<kanna_krishnan2002 writes:

> Dear Len/Kalipadma ,

>

> You mentioned ;

>

> One of the prayers to Kali says that real animals should not be

> sacrificed to Her. Rather, see your anger as a waterbuffalo given

> to Herin sacrifice, your jealousy as a camel offered to Her, your

> greed as a cat presented to Her, and so forth.

>

> Could you share with us which prayers are you refering to here?

>

> Jai Maa!!!

>

 

 

______________

The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand!

Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER!

Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today!

[Guest guest]

Kali is you. Simple as that. Then you are free. Within you and without

you, it is vibrating matter.

Namaste.

 

 

>"jodyrrr" <jodyrrr

>Kali_Ma

>Kali_Ma

> Re: The Mahashakti vs. Just Another Deity

>Fri, 27 Aug 2004 01:53:17 -0000

>

>Hey John.

>

>The bottom line is that the Mahashakti is responsible for

>all activity in the manifest universe, including the creation

>and activity of neo-pagan Kali priests. Also, Indian tradition

>and practice has no exclusive contract or licensing agreement

>with Her. Neo-pagans are just as free to appropriate and syncretize

>Her into their own ideology as anyone else.

>

>However, in terms of the more famous shaktas of India: Ramakrishna,

>Vivekananda, Sankara, Ramprasad and Kamala-kanta, etc., they

>would all be completely horrified at the idea of asking Ma to

>accomplish tasks for them, regardless of the intent of the request.

>

>In my opinion, it is the antithesis of surrender to cast spells.

>Such action completely ignores the omnipotence of the Mahashakti,

>and in many ways, is just plain human arrogance and conceit.

>

>I realize you may have only the best intentions in your heart

>when you cast spells, but I feel compelled to point out the

>futility of such, as I see it, with regards with what I've

>come to understand and experience of shaktism.

>

>So, keep up the good work. But in my opinion, if you *really*

>want to get to know Ma as the shaktas of India have, you should

>drop all spell making altogether, and reduce all your requests

>of Her to this one: Ma, please grant me only total devotion and

>surrender at your holy lotus feet.

>

>The priests of India make requests of Ma for others all the time,

>but they don't accomplish this by way of casting spells. They

>simply put the request of the devotee in front of Ma, and let

>Her take whatever action She manifests, completely regardless of

>the outcome.

>

>If you asked me, that's the only way real way to deal with Ma.

>Give it all up, without *any* attachment to *any* outcome,

>regardless of what is being requested at the time.

>

>--jody.

>

>Kali_Ma, John Soulard <johnsoulard> wrote:

>

> > Hi Jody,

> > I was very moved by your post here, I am a Neo-Pagan Kali priest.

> > I agree with your post with everything but this last few lines,

> > (for me and only me I am speaking) I am not arguing your post just

> > expressing my beliefs, and hope to learn more by the posts I read

> > on this wonderful list.

> >

> >

> > John

> >

> >

> >

> > one that comes only after one has thrown

> > away any and all ideas of personal power, magic, and the

> > manipulation of the material plane by the casting of spells.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Mail - 50x more storage than other provider

>

>

>

>

>

> Links

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Kali_Ma, "Leslie Connors" <leslie126@h...> wrote:

> Kali is you. Simple as that. Then you are free. Within you

> and without you, it is vibrating matter.

> Namaste.

 

[note to readers: I deleted my original reply and am

slightly rephrasing the first 'graph.]

 

Not exactly. Kali is me, as this individual who appears

to know himself as such. In other words, my knowing myself

as an individual *is* Kali, and everything else that is

manifest in the universe, *is* Kali. To put it another

way, Kali is Shakti and Maya, and these make up what

we know as the manifest universe

 

However, the unborn foundation of my being, which we

all are in truth, in every moment, in eternity, is

Brahman.

 

Now Brahman and Shakti are one, but there is a reason

for treating them separately. Shakti is action, Brahman

is actionless. As a person punching keys, I am Kali in

action, but as the source of being which supports the idea

of their being a person punching keys, I am Brahman.

 

In my opinion and rendering of Shankara's vedanta, all

dissolves into nirguna Brahman. In other words, according

to Shankara, it is Brahman who is ultimately ultimate,

not Kali. From the regard of the manifest universe, Kali

is ultimate, but from the regard of the source of my being,

none of this really exists at all.

 

So, I would say that ultimately, I am Brahman. But if

one is using the manifest universe as their point of

reference, than I would agree with you, that I (in my

existence as a seeming individual being) am Kali.

 

--jody.

>

>

> >"jodyrrr" <jodyrrr>

> >Kali_Ma

> >Kali_Ma

> > Re: The Mahashakti vs. Just Another Deity

> >Fri, 27 Aug 2004 01:53:17 -0000

> >

> >Hey John.

> >

> >The bottom line is that the Mahashakti is responsible for

> >all activity in the manifest universe, including the creation

> >and activity of neo-pagan Kali priests. Also, Indian tradition

> >and practice has no exclusive contract or licensing agreement

> >with Her. Neo-pagans are just as free to appropriate and syncretize

> >Her into their own ideology as anyone else.

> >

> >However, in terms of the more famous shaktas of India: Ramakrishna,

> >Vivekananda, Sankara, Ramprasad and Kamala-kanta, etc., they

> >would all be completely horrified at the idea of asking Ma to

> >accomplish tasks for them, regardless of the intent of the request.

> >

> >In my opinion, it is the antithesis of surrender to cast spells.

> >Such action completely ignores the omnipotence of the Mahashakti,

> >and in many ways, is just plain human arrogance and conceit.

> >

> >I realize you may have only the best intentions in your heart

> >when you cast spells, but I feel compelled to point out the

> >futility of such, as I see it, with regards with what I've

> >come to understand and experience of shaktism.

> >

> >So, keep up the good work. But in my opinion, if you *really*

> >want to get to know Ma as the shaktas of India have, you should

> >drop all spell making altogether, and reduce all your requests

> >of Her to this one: Ma, please grant me only total devotion and

> >surrender at your holy lotus feet.

> >

> >The priests of India make requests of Ma for others all the time,

> >but they don't accomplish this by way of casting spells. They

> >simply put the request of the devotee in front of Ma, and let

> >Her take whatever action She manifests, completely regardless of

> >the outcome.

> >

> >If you asked me, that's the only way real way to deal with Ma.

> >Give it all up, without *any* attachment to *any* outcome,

> >regardless of what is being requested at the time.

> >

> >--jody.

> >

> >Kali_Ma, John Soulard <johnsoulard> wrote:

> >

> > > Hi Jody,

> > > I was very moved by your post here, I am a Neo-Pagan Kali priest.

> > > I agree with your post with everything but this last few lines,

> > > (for me and only me I am speaking) I am not arguing your post just

> > > expressing my beliefs, and hope to learn more by the posts I read

> > > on this wonderful list.

> > >

> > >

> > > John

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > one that comes only after one has thrown

> > > away any and all ideas of personal power, magic, and the

> > > manipulation of the material plane by the casting of spells.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Mail - 50x more storage than other provider

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Links

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

I would just like to add that I as "Jody," this person punching

keys, doesn't consider himself to be Kali. "Jody" is defined as

just a devotee of Kali. When I look around me, all I see is

Ma, (not that it looks any different as Ma than anything else.)

In other words, it's me, the devotee, and Ma. That's it, the

whole cosmology.

 

So, you are all Ma responding to what I'm saying in whichever

way She does, and I am Her devotee staking my position and

defending it, and we are all mere puppets in Her lila. But

ultimately, we are all one due to the fact that we are all

Brahman, whether or not we live in the experiential understanding

(jnana) of that fact.

 

--jody.

 

Kali_Ma, "jodyrrr" <jodyrrr> wrote:

> Kali_Ma, "Leslie Connors" <leslie126@h...> wrote:

> > Kali is you. Simple as that. Then you are free. Within you

> > and without you, it is vibrating matter.

> > Namaste.

>

> [note to readers: I deleted my original reply and am

> slightly rephrasing the first 'graph.]

>

> Not exactly. Kali is me, as this individual who appears

> to know himself as such. In other words, my knowing myself

> as an individual *is* Kali, and everything else that is

> manifest in the universe, *is* Kali. To put it another

> way, Kali is Shakti and Maya, and these make up what

> we know as the manifest universe

>

> However, the unborn foundation of my being, which we

> all are in truth, in every moment, in eternity, is

> Brahman.

>

> Now Brahman and Shakti are one, but there is a reason

> for treating them separately. Shakti is action, Brahman

> is actionless. As a person punching keys, I am Kali in

> action, but as the source of being which supports the idea

> of their being a person punching keys, I am Brahman.

>

> In my opinion and rendering of Shankara's vedanta, all

> dissolves into nirguna Brahman. In other words, according

> to Shankara, it is Brahman who is ultimately ultimate,

> not Kali. From the regard of the manifest universe, Kali

> is ultimate, but from the regard of the source of my being,

> none of this really exists at all.

>

> So, I would say that ultimately, I am Brahman. But if

> one is using the manifest universe as their point of

> reference, than I would agree with you, that I (in my

> existence as a seeming individual being) am Kali.

>

> --jody.

> >

> >

> > >"jodyrrr" <jodyrrr>

> > >Kali_Ma

> > >Kali_Ma

> > > Re: The Mahashakti vs. Just Another Deity

> > >Fri, 27 Aug 2004 01:53:17 -0000

> > >

> > >Hey John.

> > >

> > >The bottom line is that the Mahashakti is responsible for

> > >all activity in the manifest universe, including the creation

> > >and activity of neo-pagan Kali priests. Also, Indian tradition

> > >and practice has no exclusive contract or licensing agreement

> > >with Her. Neo-pagans are just as free to appropriate and syncretize

> > >Her into their own ideology as anyone else.

> > >

> > >However, in terms of the more famous shaktas of India: Ramakrishna,

> > >Vivekananda, Sankara, Ramprasad and Kamala-kanta, etc., they

> > >would all be completely horrified at the idea of asking Ma to

> > >accomplish tasks for them, regardless of the intent of the request.

> > >

> > >In my opinion, it is the antithesis of surrender to cast spells.

> > >Such action completely ignores the omnipotence of the Mahashakti,

> > >and in many ways, is just plain human arrogance and conceit.

> > >

> > >I realize you may have only the best intentions in your heart

> > >when you cast spells, but I feel compelled to point out the

> > >futility of such, as I see it, with regards with what I've

> > >come to understand and experience of shaktism.

> > >

> > >So, keep up the good work. But in my opinion, if you *really*

> > >want to get to know Ma as the shaktas of India have, you should

> > >drop all spell making altogether, and reduce all your requests

> > >of Her to this one: Ma, please grant me only total devotion and

> > >surrender at your holy lotus feet.

> > >

> > >The priests of India make requests of Ma for others all the time,

> > >but they don't accomplish this by way of casting spells. They

> > >simply put the request of the devotee in front of Ma, and let

> > >Her take whatever action She manifests, completely regardless of

> > >the outcome.

> > >

> > >If you asked me, that's the only way real way to deal with Ma.

> > >Give it all up, without *any* attachment to *any* outcome,

> > >regardless of what is being requested at the time.

> > >

> > >--jody.

> > >

> > >Kali_Ma, John Soulard <johnsoulard>

wrote:

> > >

> > > > Hi Jody,

> > > > I was very moved by your post here, I am a Neo-Pagan Kali priest.

> > > > I agree with your post with everything but this last few lines,

> > > > (for me and only me I am speaking) I am not arguing your post just

> > > > expressing my beliefs, and hope to learn more by the posts I read

> > > > on this wonderful list.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > John

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > one that comes only after one has thrown

> > > > away any and all ideas of personal power, magic, and the

> > > > manipulation of the material plane by the casting of spells.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Mail - 50x more storage than other provider

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Links

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

Very well put. It is easy enough to remember that people who you like are Ma,

but it is not so easy to remember that people who don't really mesh with you

are also Ma. So, just to be sure I understand you, All action and interaction

is Ma?

How are you feeling today?

 

Sarina

 

When I look around me, all I see isMa, (not that it looks any different as Ma

than anything else.)In other words, it's me, the devotee, and Ma. That's it,

thewhole cosmology.So, you are all Ma responding to what I'm saying in

whicheverway She does, and I am Her devotee staking my position anddefending

it, and we are all mere puppets in Her lila. Butultimately, we are all one due

to the fact that we are allBrahman, whether or not we live in the experiential

understanding(jnana) of that fact.--jody.Kali_Ma,

"jodyrrr" <jodyrrr> wrote:> Kali_Ma, "Leslie

Connors" <leslie126@h...> wrote:> > Kali is you. Simple as that. Then you are

free. Within you > > and without you, it is vibrating matter.> > Namaste.> >

[note to readers: I deleted my original reply and am> slightly

rephrasing the first 'graph.]> > Not exactly. Kali is me, as this individual who

appears > to know himself as such. In other words, my knowing myself > as an

individual *is* Kali, and everything else that is> manifest in the universe,

*is* Kali. To put it another> way, Kali is Shakti and Maya, and these make up

what> we know as the manifest universe> > However, the unborn foundation of my

being, which we> all are in truth, in every moment, in eternity, is> Brahman.>

> Now Brahman and Shakti are one, but there is a reason> for treating them

separately. Shakti is action, Brahman> is actionless. As a person punching

keys, I am Kali in> action, but as the source of being which supports the idea>

of their being a person punching keys, I am Brahman.> > In my opinion and

rendering of Shankara's vedanta, all> dissolves into nirguna Brahman. In other

words, according> to Shankara, it is Brahman who is ultimately ultimate,> not

Kali. From the regard of the manifest universe, Kali> is ultimate, but from the

regard of the source of my being,> none of this really exists at all.> > So, I

would say that ultimately, I am Brahman. But if> one is using the manifest

universe as their point of> reference, than I would agree with you, that I (in

my> existence as a seeming individual being) am Kali.> > --jody.> > > > > >

>"jodyrrr" <jodyrrr>> > >Kali_Ma> > >To:

Kali_Ma> > > Re: The Mahashakti vs. Just

Another Deity> > >Fri, 27 Aug 2004 01:53:17 -0000> > >> > >Hey John.> >

>> > >The bottom line is that the Mahashakti is responsible for> >

>all activity in the manifest universe, including the creation> > >and activity

of neo-pagan Kali priests. Also, Indian tradition> > >and practice has no

exclusive contract or licensing agreement> > >with Her. Neo-pagans are just as

free to appropriate and syncretize> > >Her into their own ideology as anyone

else.> > >> > >However, in terms of the more famous shaktas of India:

Ramakrishna,> > >Vivekananda, Sankara, Ramprasad and Kamala-kanta, etc., they>

> >would all be completely horrified at the idea of asking Ma to> > >accomplish

tasks for them, regardless of the intent of the request.> > >> > >In my opinion,

it is the antithesis of surrender to cast spells.> > >Such action completely

ignores the omnipotence of the Mahashakti,> > >and in many ways, is just plain

human arrogance and conceit.> >

>> > >I realize you may have only the best intentions in your heart> > >when you

cast spells, but I feel compelled to point out the> > >futility of such, as I

see it, with regards with what I've> > >come to understand and experience of

shaktism.> > >> > >So, keep up the good work. But in my opinion, if you

*really*> > >want to get to know Ma as the shaktas of India have, you should> >

>drop all spell making altogether, and reduce all your requests> > >of Her to

this one: Ma, please grant me only total devotion and> > >surrender at your

holy lotus feet.> > >> > >The priests of India make requests of Ma for others

all the time,> > >but they don't accomplish this by way of casting spells.

They> > >simply put the request of the devotee in front of Ma, and let> > >Her

take whatever

action She manifests, completely regardless of> > >the outcome.> > >> > >If you

asked me, that's the only way real way to deal with Ma.> > >Give it all up,

without *any* attachment to *any* outcome,> > >regardless of what is being

requested at the time.> > >> > >--jody.> > >> > >--- In

Kali_Ma, John Soulard <johnsoulard>wrote:> > >> > > > Hi

Jody,> > > > I was very moved by your post here, I am a Neo-Pagan Kali priest.>

> > > I agree with your post with everything but this last few lines,> > > >

(for me and only me I am speaking) I am not arguing your post just> > > >

expressing my beliefs, and hope to learn more by the posts I read> > > > on

this wonderful list.> > > >> > > >> > > >

John> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > one that comes only after one has thrown> > > >

away any and all ideas of personal power, magic, and the> > > > manipulation of

the material plane by the casting of spells.> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >

> > > > > > > > Mail -

50x more storage than other provider> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >

Links> > >> > >> > >> > >> >

>Tired of spam?

Mail has the best spam protection around

[Guest guest]

Kali_Ma, sarina Helton <forestowl2> wrote:

>

> Very well put. It is easy enough to remember that people who you

> like are Ma, but it is not so easy to remember that people who

> don't really mesh with you are also Ma. So, just to be sure I

> understand you, All action and interaction is Ma?

 

Yes Sarina. *Everything*, all action and events which occur,

and all the beings which are involved in them, is/are Ma.

 

If someone enters my home and murders me, that was Ma.

 

> How are you feeling today?

 

I'm feeling a tiny bit better. Still bouncing off 102,

but perhaps not quite as ill as I felt yesterday. I went

to the doctor today, but all we could come up with was an

unspecified viral infection. She suggested I return on

Sunday if I'm still febrile then.

 

Thanks for asking and for the help.

 

--jody.

 

>

>

> Sarina

>

>

>

> When I look around me, all I see is

> Ma, (not that it looks any different as Ma than anything else.)

> In other words, it's me, the devotee, and Ma. That's it, the

> whole cosmology.

>

> So, you are all Ma responding to what I'm saying in whichever

> way She does, and I am Her devotee staking my position and

> defending it, and we are all mere puppets in Her lila. But

> ultimately, we are all one due to the fact that we are all

> Brahman, whether or not we live in the experiential understanding

> (jnana) of that fact.

>

> --jody.

>

> Kali_Ma, "jodyrrr" <jodyrrr> wrote:

> > Kali_Ma, "Leslie Connors" <leslie126@h...>

wrote:

> > > Kali is you. Simple as that. Then you are free. Within you

> > > and without you, it is vibrating matter.

> > > Namaste.

> >

> > [note to readers: I deleted my original reply and am

> > slightly rephrasing the first 'graph.]

> >

> > Not exactly. Kali is me, as this individual who appears

> > to know himself as such. In other words, my knowing myself

> > as an individual *is* Kali, and everything else that is

> > manifest in the universe, *is* Kali. To put it another

> > way, Kali is Shakti and Maya, and these make up what

> > we know as the manifest universe

> >

> > However, the unborn foundation of my being, which we

> > all are in truth, in every moment, in eternity, is

> > Brahman.

> >

> > Now Brahman and Shakti are one, but there is a reason

> > for treating them separately. Shakti is action, Brahman

> > is actionless. As a person punching keys, I am Kali in

> > action, but as the source of being which supports the idea

> > of their being a person punching keys, I am Brahman.

> >

> > In my opinion and rendering of Shankara's vedanta, all

> > dissolves into nirguna Brahman. In other words, according

> > to Shankara, it is Brahman who is ultimately ultimate,

> > not Kali. From the regard of the manifest universe, Kali

> > is ultimate, but from the regard of the source of my being,

> > none of this really exists at all.

> >

> > So, I would say that ultimately, I am Brahman. But if

> > one is using the manifest universe as their point of

> > reference, than I would agree with you, that I (in my

> > existence as a seeming individual being) am Kali.

> >

> > --jody.

> > >

> > >

> > > >"jodyrrr" <jodyrrr>

> > > >Kali_Ma

> > > >Kali_Ma

> > > > Re: The Mahashakti vs. Just Another Deity

> > > >Fri, 27 Aug 2004 01:53:17 -0000

> > > >

> > > >Hey John.

> > > >

> > > >The bottom line is that the Mahashakti is responsible for

> > > >all activity in the manifest universe, including the creation

> > > >and activity of neo-pagan Kali priests. Also, Indian tradition

> > > >and practice has no exclusive contract or licensing agreement

> > > >with Her. Neo-pagans are just as free to appropriate and syncretize

> > > >Her into their own ideology as anyone else.

> > > >

> > > >However, in terms of the more famous shaktas of India: Ramakrishna,

> > > >Vivekananda, Sankara, Ramprasad and Kamala-kanta, etc., they

> > > >would all be completely horrified at the idea of asking Ma to

> > > >accomplish tasks for them, regardless of the intent of the request.

> > > >

> > > >In my opinion, it is the antithesis of surrender to cast spells.

> > > >Such action completely ignores the omnipotence of the Mahashakti,

> > > >and in many ways, is just plain human arrogance and conceit.

> > > >

> > > >I realize you may have only the best intentions in your heart

> > > >when you cast spells, but I feel compelled to point out the

> > > >futility of such, as I see it, with regards with what I've

> > > >come to understand and experience of shaktism.

> > > >

> > > >So, keep up the good work. But in my opinion, if you *really*

> > > >want to get to know Ma as the shaktas of India have, you should

> > > >drop all spell making altogether, and reduce all your requests

> > > >of Her to this one: Ma, please grant me only total devotion and

> > > >surrender at your holy lotus feet.

> > > >

> > > >The priests of India make requests of Ma for others all the time,

> > > >but they don't accomplish this by way of casting spells. They

> > > >simply put the request of the devotee in front of Ma, and let

> > > >Her take whatever action She manifests, completely regardless of

> > > >the outcome.

> > > >

> > > >If you asked me, that's the only way real way to deal with Ma.

> > > >Give it all up, without *any* attachment to *any* outcome,

> > > >regardless of what is being requested at the time.

> > > >

> > > >--jody.

> > > >

> > > >Kali_Ma, John Soulard <johnsoulard>

> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > > Hi Jody,

> > > > > I was very moved by your post here, I am a Neo-Pagan Kali

priest.

> > > > > I agree with your post with everything but this last few lines,

> > > > > (for me and only me I am speaking) I am not arguing your

post just

> > > > > expressing my beliefs, and hope to learn more by the posts I

read

> > > > > on this wonderful list.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > John

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > one that comes only after one has thrown

> > > > > away any and all ideas of personal power, magic, and the

> > > > > manipulation of the material plane by the casting of spells.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Mail - 50x more storage than other provider

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Links

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

>

>

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