Karma or God ?

July 18, 2001

Excellent. Thank you very much. I guess my

question wasn't phrased correctly. Let me see if I can

word it better. In the events of my life, I've

felt that God was guiding me and helping me along in

my life. I believe strongly that there is such a

thing as fate. Is that the same as God's will? Our free

will overcomes this, obviously, and this is where

karma comes in...or is it? Does God help us make

decisions in our lives? Guide us along? Or does God not

judge either way?

July 18, 2001

Pranams, Blessed Self, Karma Queen I

basically agree with your post -- such points as (1) we

don't earn God's grace so much as we leave ourselves

open to it; (2) no distinction between 'good' and

'bad' karma; (3) sadhana (i.e. your 'letting go of

hatred, anger and the need to feel the ego, etc.) enables

us to become aware of God's 'unconditional love' ,

but I would phrase things a little

differently. Also, I would add that God's unconditional love is not

an emotion and not something that can be withheld or

withdrawn. God's unconditional love is an intrinsic and

definitive aspect of His Being. It is a part of our

intrinsic nature as well for we are all manifestations of

Brahman. It is not something that can be developed or

needs to be developed. The purpose of sadhana is to

decondition our minds, to see maya as maya, to see the

futility of constantly trying to satisfy the ego, to see

that our desires for the things of maya are

detrimental to our knowledge of who we really are, and most

importantly, to eventually think and act as our authentic

selves, as manifestations of Brahman. Om namah

Sivaya Omprem

July 19, 2001

There are 3 schools of thought : 1. Dvaitic

Philosophy (Dualism) 2. Visishta-Advaitic Philosophy

(Qualified Non-Dualism.) 3. Advaitic Philosphy

(Non-Dualism.) Before climbing higher to Vishishtadvaita and Advaita,

let us understand Dvaita, and stick to it.

Fate is destiny. What governs destiny? Our karma. How

does karma govern our destiny? There are 3 types of

karma: 1. sanchita karma (accumulated karmas of the

past) 2. prarabdha karma (the past karma that we are

experiencing now- fructifying karma) 3. kriyamana karma

(the karma that we are doing now, which will affect

our future). Karma is anything you do in

thought, word and deed. Karma is not only these 3 actions,

but also their result. A result of any action cannot

be subdivided from it. Hence the action and the

result together constitute the karma. Every

action has a reaction. Any action in thought, word,

deed, sentiment, imagination etc, bring about a

reaction of similar force and nature. Hence, virtue brings

about rewards, and vice, punishment. God

neither is the bestower of rewards for the good, nor

gives punishment to the bad. It is our own karma that

determines the rewards and the punishment. This is the Law

of causation. Coming to free will : Both

sanchita karma and prarabdha karma are of the

past/present, and obviously you cannot change your past /

present. But the future can be changed, by doing good

kriyamana karma. This is where free will comes in. That is

why they say, " you can win fate with

freewill". >>Does God help us make decisions in our lives?

Guide us along? Or does God not judge either

way?<< As Ramana Maharshi said, " If you seek God with your

whole heart, then you may be assured that the Grace of

God is also seeking you. " When you have a problem

and run to your parent, or elder sibling or a friend,

do they not help you? When people with finite love

themselves help/guide their dear ones when they are in

trouble; will God - the Infinite Ocean of Divine Love -

refrain Himself? Please note: Karma is too big a

topic to be discussed in posts. The above said points,

are only a bare skeleton of karma ( compiled from

"Bliss Divine " by Swami Sivananda ). I do not mind

emails, but please do write "Sadhna Club" in the subject

field. Hope This Helps Hari Aum !!!

July 19, 2001

Hello, chitrasrinivas. Thak you for responding to

my post. Ok, so this loving boy healed enough karma

to fill 12 lifetimes. That's wonderful! So how do I

heal my eyes? I'm not trying to be

disagreeable... not today anyway. <playful smile> I just

don't get the point. <knocks on her head in the

hopes that some one is home> Confused but

happy still, Audra ps. *hugs* I can tell that

you are sincer.

July 19, 2001

//Karma is too big a topic to be discussed in

posts.// so? It's so fun to discuss!

<smile> Seriously though. I enjoyed your last post very much. It

gave me allot to think about. It was helpful. Thank

you. With love, Audra

July 21, 2001

O Dear One! As we near the end of our physical

existences on this plane, we must pay off the karmic debt we

have accumulated in past lifetimes, blessed be the

dear ones that accept what is given in love as a

blessing, for surely you are near your final incarnation to

realize as much as you do. And the Saints in the final

heaven have granted each of us lovingly only the bearest

of debt to work off, taking on as much as they can

themselves. It is a wonderous universe, and workings theirin

are mind boggling, but all loving. Look within

and be warm! Peace, Anna

July 21, 2001

Thanks for the beautiful thought annapurna.

>>And the Saints in the final heaven have granted each

of us lovingly only the bearest of debt to work off,

taking on as much as they can

themselves>> I'm curious though about this statement. In

Christianity, one has the concept of 'Christ dying to cleanse

the sins of the world'. Does that have an equivalent

in Hindu scriptures too? My scriptural

knowledge is limited, but am I wrong in my understanding

that, at least in eastern philosophy, no one takes

anyone's Karmic debt away, unless one has earned it?

Grace, or 'GOD's' love exsits unconditionally,

irrespective of good or bad karma; however that very 'GOD'

allows us, the jivatma* (embodied spirit) to work out

one's karma themselves. HE/SHE/ holds the hand of the

travelor, as they pave their own pathway back

'home'. Just curious.. Yes .. I agree .. the ways of

the Universe are wonderous indeed! Tat twam

asi UMA *Jivatma = embodied spirit

July 21, 2001

Hi Uma. Actually, whenever I read the bible, I

come up with a more "mystical" or Eastern

interpretation of scripures, so your question interests me a

great deal. I too have thought about this issue of

Crist taking on the sins of the world and working off

karma. //My scriptural knowledge is limited, but am I wrong

in my understanding that, at least in eastern

philosophy, no one takes anyone's Karmic debt away, unless

one has earned it? Grace...// Perhaps this is

why the church under Constantine (spelling?) spoke

out against the concept of reincarnation. Before the

canonisation, many early Christians beleived in reincarnation.

The Jews of Jesus' time did too. I know

nothing of Hidu scriptures so I have no answer for you.

sorry. I am wondering about the idea myself. If Christ

took on the sins of humanity, then why should we need

to work off karma? God be with you, Audra

July 21, 2001

Hello Anna. I must say that you make the most

wonderful posts! I love reading your soft warm words of

wisdom. I'm not trying to be anoying or disagreeable,

but..... How do I heal my eyes? The reason I keep

asking is because the people in this club seem to know

allot, not because I am bitter or angry. I got over the

bitterness about my eyes at about age 7 or so. I sill would

like to see better though. Speaking of

bitterness, does anyone know how I might let go of all of

mine? I have racked up allot of it over the years, and

I am having trouble letting go. Much love

to all of you, Audra

July 23, 2001

Tks Uma, this question is very important as I

have heard many of my chiristian friends saying this

and hoping they were also burning Karmas of their

loved ones. I personally feel that as per the

karma theory of Hinduism, one has to get results of

one's past karma....No other can bear the fruits of

good/bad Karma of others. Had it been possible, parents

would not have let their children suffer...or some

crooks would have stolen good karma of others...it is

childish to say we can bear others good/bad karma.

But i will admit this is possible for enlightened

souls...they will not do this for an individual but keeping in

view the latent plan of Mother Nature, they may bear

the brunt of negative energies themselves, so that

the negativity thus ready to make thousands suffer,

may be destroyed. I think this happened in the case

of Christ as he was not a common man, but an

Avtaraa. Thanks Babu for the beautiful story. What

happened to the thief ? Well i think he, by this incident,

turned his negative energies to positive ones, and would

have made a fast progress. Thanks Blessed self

OMprem for the word of caution. It would be useful if

you could pinpoint some of the usual disturbances

felt while Kundalini awakening for the benefit of

members. dear Raghana Your post is wonderful. pls continue

with the next parts of it. Those who have a

question on their meditation, obstacles, or results but

feel shy to put it on board, may e-mail them at

silentsoul_55. Their quesion will be put on the board by

founders, without disclosing their name, as we have done in

past. With our Warm welcome to all new Sadhakas who

have recently joined our satsang Hari

Aum silent soul ps: & a big hug to Audra for keeping

the forum alive by her great and honest thoughts !

July 23, 2001

*a huge hug in return to silent soul* Careful! I am a very honest person.

<smile> Warm love, Audra

July 24, 2001

>>Speaking of bitterness, does anyone know

how I might let go of all of mine? I have racked up

allot of it over the years, and I am having trouble

letting go.<< I'm afraid I cannot offer much

help, but I would like to relate to you a story. I have

been having trouble with a woman I had inadvertantly

offended by stating my beliefs concerning Jesus, I had

appologized several times and yet her bitterness over my

statement continued. When I told my husband about the

situation he said to me, "tell her this story: Once

long ago there were three monks making a journey to a

villiage some 10 miles away. They had walked nearly 3

miles when they came to a stream that had over run it's

banks. Standing along side the steam was a young woman

who was trying to find a simple way across. She was

clearly frightened of the water, and though the monks

wished to help her cross, each had taken a vow to never

touch a woman. Suddenly the eldest monk stepped

forward, lifted the woman in his arms, and carried her

across the stream setting her down safe and dry on the

opposite bank. The younger monks were shocked, but said

nothing as they crossed the stream themselves.

The three monks continued their journey in silence.

When they reached the village the younger monks could

contain themselves no longer and finally confronted the

eldest, "You have broken your vow by touching a woman -

and yet have nothing to say for yourself?" The

eldest simply replied, "I set the young woman down on

the banks of the stream, yet you have carried her

these last seven miles." :-)

July 24, 2001

Oh, thak you, MEofUI. I love that story... only

when I heard it it was only two monks crossing the

stream. More the marrier! <smile> My own

interpretation of the story is that there is a time to carry

whatever emotion/ thought/ intent/ word/ deed/ memory...

whatever, and then a time to let it go. Why haven't I let

go of my bitterness? I don't know. Perhaps it makes

me feel secure. Perhaps is gives me a reason for

being. Or maybe I just won't know what to do without it.

I don't know... I want to let go though. No use

hating people and events that aren't even happening

anymore! Sill would apreciate advice or meditation techniques

for letting of of old anger. Thaks again,

WEofUI. With love, Audra

July 24, 2001

Perhaps you might feel comfortable sharing where your bitterness stems from? I

know that my meditation techniques vary according to the areas I am moving in.

July 25, 2001

Audra- I let go of old anger after I

realized that the only reason I held onto it was to soothe

and coddle my ego. My anger was doing nothing

positive for me or for anyone else, so every day I made

the effort to become a little bit more quiet and let

the anger go a little bit more. It takes time, but I

really feel like a different person now. You'll

let go of it when you're ready and when you really

internalize the feeling that holding onto anger only feeds

the ego. Om Shanti, Erica

July 25, 2001

Dear Audra, I know not how you can heal your

eyes. But I do know what you can do when you have a

problem. Before telling you that, I will give a few

examples: 1. Imagine there is an ore of gold in front of you.

To extract gold from its ore, you need to purify and

separate gold, and then subject it to a lot of heat, mold

it to the desired shape, and finally you have the

ornament. 2. When a child has an infection, the mother gives

the child a bitter medicine. The child should not

think that the mother is torturing him/her by

subjecting him/her to this bitterness. This medicine is

given only for the benefit of the

child. Similarly, we are like the golden ore with a lot of

impurities (we are basically gold deep inside ;-)). God

separates the golden core inside from the external

impurities by purifying it. This purification process is

what we construe as misery. Hence, when a

misery befalls us, we must take it as a purification /

treatment process. Then the misery ceases to be a misery.

When the child is given the medicine, the medicine

fights the bacteria, but the child is not aware of it.

Only after it recovers in a day or two, does it

realise the usefullness of the medicine. Similarly, when

we are undergoing the misery, we don't know the

reason behind it. Only after some time ( say a few

years), we realise how the misery has benefited us, and

has changed our outlook towards the

better. The purification process can be quickened by using a

catalyst. Similarly let's use the catalyst of faith and

love (Bhakthi) towards God, and let's quicken this

process, and finish it. Hari Aum !!!

July 26, 2001

Truely truely, holding onto anger only feeds the ego! So how did you let go a

little each day? thank you for the advice, by the way. With

love, Audra

July 26, 2001

In all honesty, WEofUI, I do not know. I know

that I am agry with those who would hurt, kill,

torture or persicute others in the name of God and

country. I am bitter tword all governments and religions.

But where does my bitterness stem from? <shrug>

Thank you though for the invitation to share. Will this

bit of info help you grab a technique for

me? With love, Audra

July 26, 2001

Thank yoi, chitrasrinivas. This is very

interesting, if not confusing advice. I truely understand the

adversity thing. I have lived it. I know that "pain" and

"suffering" can teach us a great deal. It is a true seer who

can stare down the barel of a gun and see the beauty

of a sunrise. I like that thought. I had it the

other day, and now I have an opropriate place to slap

that little musing. I do not understand how

faith can allow me to overcome my own bitterness. All I

know about faith is that stupid hipocritical people

beleive in the things I expiriance but some how see me as

a freak. I learn from expiriance. Faith is an

obsticle to truth/God. This is just my perspective.

Perhaps we have differant deffinitions of faith. Maybe

you can explain faith a bit more to me.... Maybe I'me

just dence. lol I don't know. With

love, Audra

July 26, 2001

>>Will this bit of info help you grab a

technique for me?<< While I understand how you

might be bitter over the intolerance and oppression you

mentioned in your post I'm afraid I'm unable to advise you.

However, I am far less knowledgeable than many others in

this club, perhaps someone else will know.

Personally - Tantra desolved my bitterness associated with

rape, Yoga desolved my bitterness associated with a

poor body image, and simple meditation desolved my

bitterness associated with religiously biggoted family

members. I'm sure that the answer will come when you are

most able to receive it. :-)

July 27, 2001

I made an effort to, Audra. I was aware that I

was bitter and angry and made an effort to release

it. That's really all I can say because that's really

all it took. I realized that I am more in control of

my own emotions and my attachments to them than I

ever thought. I cut the cord, so to speak, and let

them go. I observed them and felt them as long as they

were valid for me, and then just let them

go. Om Shanti Erica

July 27, 2001

Thank you, WEofUI for responding even if you do

not know THE answer... I am sure there are many valid

ways of doing it.... By the way, it takes a wise

person to admit when she does not know! Thank you for

being honest and caring. *hugs* With

love, Audra

July 27, 2001

Thank you very much, Erica. I understand the

concept. You held the bitterness as long as you felt like

you needed it, then let go. Well then... I must

envent my own technique...saaaaaayyy visualisation. I am

visual person. With love, Audra

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