Karma or God ?

July 12, 2001

hmmmm I think good karma is necessary to start

even meditation, god comes next. If we dont

have good karma, we can not start the journey. So Good

karma is more powerful than God on the physical plane,

as god never comes to us to say "Start

meditation". kitti

July 12, 2001

Grace leads us to good karma and grace leads us to God. Where does this

grace come from? From the source of all: God

July 12, 2001

Pointing: Right! Good karma is a

reward...brownie points in heaven...money in the bank....treasures

stored in our Causal Bodies. Bad karma....result of our

own actions. By the grace of God we transmute the bad

karma into good. Blueray

July 13, 2001

Welcome new members and so wonderful to see you

all jump right into saadhna (the practice)!

Some questions for dialogue .. What is Grace?

Is there an equivalent for the term in Eastern

philosophy? Does 'Grace' have to be earned through

right actions (good karma) or is it just given by

"God"? Hoping to see lots of members get into

this discussion. All levels of interest are

welcome! Peace to you all! Tat twam asi UMA

July 13, 2001

The Grace one received from God is directly

proportional to the self-effort that one puts in. Hence it

does have to be earned through right

actions. "The spiritual path is twenty-five percent the

disciple's effort, twenty-five percent the Guru's effort on

his behalf and fifty percent the grace of God. Don't

forget however that the twenty-five percent that is your

part represents one hundred percent of your own

efforts and sincerity!" (Sayings of Paramahansa

Yogananda) Hence, self-effort on the disciple's part to the best of

his abilities with full faith in God and Guru is the

only way towards attaining Self-Realization. In

Divine Love and Bliss -Mukund

July 13, 2001

Wow, what an interesting discussion we have going

here with equally interesting responses. Here's

my take. My own personal definition of grace is the

love that cannot be earned. Not that we deserve to be

cast out or punished but get love anyway. Rather it is

the unconditional love of God of even the most rotten

to the core people with the worst karma of them all.

That is to say, even though you may have racked up

allot of black marks against you, God still loves you

enough to help in your spiritual growth. Where

does the individual come in? If we cannot willingly

earn grace, what can we do? We can receive it. We can

accept it, do our best to take chances that are given to

us and using them to grow spiritually... and that

means, in my opinion, letting go of hatred, anger, need

to feel the ego etc. and remembering who we really

are. I do not make much of a distinction between good

and bad karma. I think if you ask for it, you get it.

If you put out love, it will ripple back to you.

Same goes for wealth, war, intilectualism etc. In my

opinion (I've said that sllot haven't I?) the goal is to

get rid of or let go of karma, thus becomming less

involved in our self made illusions and more aware of

God/Truth. I respect all opinions here, and am more than happy

to listen to some one who disagrees with

me. With karma to kill, Audra ps. I may be the

karma queen, but I love each and every one of ya!

July 13, 2001

Dear Friend: That was wonderful! And I

guess I'd add a point to it.....God always loves us no

matter what, however, the question is whether WE are

open to receiving this love from the Spirit. The only

thing or the 'door' that might come between us and God

is the evil selfishness. Hence, no matter how much

karma we have accumulated in the past, if we let go of

the evil selfishness (which results in anger, hatred,

fear, pride, etc.) NOW, we would find MORE of the

Divine Love pouring into our being cleasing us in body,

mind and spirit. By the way, I've used the

term 'evil-selfishness' since it's different from

'spiritual selfishness', which is actually a very positive

trait and brings goodness for us as well as the world

around us :-) In Divine Love and

Bliss -Mukund

July 13, 2001

Hello: I enjoyed your question about grace.

Here is what I came up with: Grace is as

mysterious as life itself. Grace is of an entirely

spiritual nature. It is the appearance of the spirit in

a manifest way. Grace is always uplifting and is

the force that expels obstacles from our

path. The Guru is called the grace-bestowing power of God

in the Eastern Philosophy. Chris

July 13, 2001

Hi: Someone once said that Grace and Self-effort are like the two wings

of the bird that carries us towards our true home. Chris

July 15, 2001

<<If we dont have good karma, we can not

start the journey. So Good karma is more powerful than

God on the physical plane, as god never comes to us

to say "Start meditation".>> Here is

another perspective. Wayne Liquorman, aka Ram Tzu was a

chronic alcoholic for about nineteen years, when he

suddenly and automatically gave up that habit and became

interested in things spiritual. He read Confucious,

Osho,dabbled in various kinds of meditations, etc. This went

on for sixth months. Finally he met his Guru

who told him that he was not the doer of his actions,

so he need not worry. He gave up his meditations and

other spiritual 'practices', and in a very short

period, enlightenment happened. So where was the

good karma that we so much talk about? If God

wants that enlightenment should happen in a particular

body-mind mechanism, He will make it happen no matter what

you think you are doing. More

later. Hare Krishna. Rajeev

July 15, 2001

>>He gave up his meditations and other

spiritual 'practices', and in a very short period,

enlightenment happened.>> What did he do when he

gave up the spiritual practices? Did he choose the

life of avidya (ignorance) as a rougue, living in

anger, vengence, resentment, arrogantly hurting people?

Or did he just give up his attachment and need to

control his goals and followed his prescribed duties ..

as in nishkaam (without desire)

Karma? Peace Tat twam asi UMA

July 15, 2001

This conversation is GREAT brain food! In aw and fascination, Audra

July 16, 2001

Mr Rajeev has written <If God wants that

enlightenment should happen in a particular body-mind

mechanism, He will make it happen no matter what you think

you are doing. > Well I do not agree. It

implies, we need not do any thing and whether we are good

of bad God will give us enlightenment when he

wishes. -God does not distribute enlightenment on lottery

draws (like american visa lol which i did not get ),

that any tom dick and harry can get it. - If

he does as he wishes, then He can not be called a

justified God, and then why should I be nice, why should I

be helpful to others, why should I not cheat, kill

and hurt others why should I not induldge in Drinking

gambling and sex ? - There is certainly something

which attracts the attention of God to take us to the

path of enlightenment besides his wish. WHAT IS THAT

CRITERIA ? vinod

July 16, 2001

<< Well I do not agree. It implies, we need

not do any thing and whether we are good of bad God

will give us enlightenment when he

wishes.>> Absolutely. You need not do anything and whether we think

we

are good or bad, God will give us enlightenment if

and exactly when He wishes. In fact, you are not

doing anything, anyway. 'You are not the doer of your

actions', says the Geeta. <<If he does as he

wishes, then He can not be called a justified God, and

then why should I be nice, why should I be helpful to

others, why should I not cheat, kill and hurt others why

should I not indulge in Drinking gambling and sex

?>> The concept of a just God is a Pandora’s box. The

moment we assign the role of an ethical supreme power to

God, we have to create the opposite concept of Satan,

who creates all the disturbance. I need not

elaborate. Suffice it to say that once we accept the whole

universe as His play (Leela), why expect him to play it to

the satisfaction of the imagined characters of the

play? God has given us no promise to always reward good

deeds and punish the evil ones. He would rather not get

involved into this business of rewards and punishment

(naadatte kasyachit paapam, na chaiva sukritam vibhuh:

Geeta). That is too mechanical a job for someone like

God. If that is so, why shouldn’t you cheat, kill, and

hurt others… that is because if you get caught you

will be sent to jail, and you don’t want that to

happen, do you? Why shouldn’t you indulge in drinking and

sex… because too much indulgence in these things is

injurious to your body. Why do we have to mystify these

simple things? Hare Krishna. Rajeev

July 16, 2001

<<What did he (Wayne Liquorman) do when he

gave up the spiritual practices? Did he choose the

life of avidya (ignorance) as a rougue, living in

anger, vengence, resentment, arrogantly hurting people?

Or did he just give up his attachment and need to

control his goals and followed his prescribed duties ..

as in nishkaam (without desire)

Karma?>> What did he do?? The understanding was that he was not

the doer of the actions that happened through the

body-mind mechanism called Wayne. To ask what he did, is to

put the question wrongly. He didn't 'do' anything.

That is the understanding. Hare

krishna. Rajeev

July 16, 2001

Hello Vinod, you said: //that any tom dick and

harry can get it.// Isn't that the point? I

mean, why did Buddha or Jesus or any of the great

teachers come? So every Tom, Dick and Harry can get

it! I'm sorry if you think I'm taking your words out of

context. I don't mean to. It's jut something that caught

my eye. I remind you that the teacher (when seen as

some one speacial) can also serve as a destraction.

There are two Zen sayings that come to mind. "As soon

as you are attatched to a teacher, leave." and the

more famous one "If you meet the Buddha, kill the

Buddha. With love, Audra

July 16, 2001

ok Here's an idea about not being the doer...

Perhaps enlightenment is not done, earned, acheived or

even attained. Perhaps it just is and all we need do

is to stop doing. That is to say, what if we get

very board of ->ME<- and stop being a

->ME<- When that happens.. when we stop doing all the

things a ->ME<- does, we remember elightenment and

be elightened rather than become

enlightened. Did I explain my idea well, or is it

convoluded? With love, Audra ps. wondering if I have to

stop loving to be enlighened

July 17, 2001

Once a devotee asked Ramana Maharshi the

following question. Q. Can destiny (karma) ever come

to an end? A. Karmas carry in themselves the

seeds of their own destruction. Note: Karma is

the destiny created for oneself by one's free

actions. In actions are included thoughts and sensations,

motives, good or bad emotions, etc. While working out an

old destiny one is bound to create a new one by the

manner in which one reacts to its operation. Here then

comes the place of free will. We are not free to alter

the trend of an old Karma, for example, in the choice

of our parents, country, the circumstances of our

birth and environments; of our physical and mental

fitness and abilities. These are forced on us : we cannot

change them. What we can change is the manner in which

we receive and work them out. We are all agreed that

there are many things in which the decision lies in our

hands : the decision is ours, the action is ours, the

motive behind the action is ours, the mental attitude

with which we do the action is ours too. This often is

the field in which we are allowed freedom of will,

and it contains the seeds of our future destiny. We

can shape that destiny as we will, and if like most

people, we are not aware of this truth, we allow

ourselves to be carried away by our impulses. We shall

eventually land in worse trouble than we are in already.

Most often the new karma does not follow on the heel

of the one which is being worked out now, so that we

drag the chain of our slavery through several

lives. Here the salutary precepts of the Scriptures come to

our rescue to make us rectify our views on life and

our attitude towards others. These and the persistent

knocks of the destiny gradually soften our impulses,

modify our outlooks, sharpen our intellect, and slowly

but surely turn us into seekers; then into yogis; and

finally into full fledged jnanis, when karma ceases.

Jnana totally annihilates it. Let us not forget that

all these improved changes - or evolution - take

place not in the man himself, but in the faculties

which are superimposed on him, that is, in his views

and actions. Jnana is thus brought about by

a good karma, generated by a good free will, which

is the result of persistent suffering from a bad

karma, generated by a bad free will. Karma is like an

inanimate machine, which yields up what you put into it.

That is why the master begins his Upadesa Saram with

the statement that karma is jada, insentient,

unintelligent. What makes it move and act as stern destiny is

the energy generated by the exercise of our free

will. It may be asked that if a persistently bad free will

caused by the embitterment resulting from a persistently

bad karma brings about a worse karma, which drags us

down and down, where is the change of our ever coming

up to the surface again? We must not forget the

saving Grace of suffering and the inherent purity of our

nature, which will not permit us to remain for ever

insensible to degradation and misery : we cannot for ever

remain sunk in bottomless ignorance and never attempt to

climb up to freedom. Suffering and the intense urge to

return to ourselves act as flats and buoy us up from the

depths of this vast ocean of samsara. Thus the action of

karma through suffering gives the impetus to Jnana

which destroys karma. This is what Bhagavan means by "

karma carries in itself the seeds of its own

destruction. " It goes without saying that karma

takes effect only in the physical body; for a debt

incurred in a physical body has to be paid also in such a

body, either in this very body or in a future one. The

Vedanta does not believe in an after death payment; hence

rebirth is necessary.

July 17, 2001

<<ps. wondering if I have to stop loving to

be enlighened >> You don't have to

deliberately stop anything. If you decide and stop something,

the 'me' is very much there! Stopping something is

doing something. Hare krishna. Rajeev

July 17, 2001

Wow. Excellent post, chitrasrinivas. I just

joined this club today and am very impressed already.

Just so you know, I'm a 25 year old American born,

Catholic raised woman with deep questions about where I

should be, religious-wise. I have quite a long story

about it that I am willing to share if anyone's

interested. But for now, let me just state that I am

definitely leaning towards the Hindu path. I'm learning more

and more every day. I've had quite a bit of

struggle myself with this particular topic recently. See,

life has been going really well for me (new job, new

apartment, losing weight, quitting smoking, off

anti-depressants, etc etc etc) and I'm not quite sure exactly why.

I do know that I've recently felt God for the first

time in this life, and I know that since that instance

I've changed my attitude about my karma and my

actions. The feeling of knowing God's presence was so

powerful to me that I can't help to think that my life is

being lead and helped along by the Divine. I

was told by a Hindu friend that she doesn't "believe

in a God that doles out problems and rewards as

He/She sees fit". I tend to agree with that statement.

However, I do believe that God has a definite role in my

life and in my choices. My question is this: Where

does karma end and Divine Love begin?

July 17, 2001

Hi Sugarandbrine ... and welcome to the club! I

am a new member too, upon the kind invitation of

Silent Soul (who, I should add, has been most kind and

helpful in his correspondence, and encouraged me to go

ahead and post here ... so here goes!) ... Like

you, I am "American born, Catholic raised" and found

myself "with deep questions about where I should be,

religious-wise." And like you, I was also "definitely leaning

towards the Hindu path." I would be honored to hear your

story -- and perhaps tell you something of mine, so

that we might compare notes. Please drop me a note

either here or via e-mail ... I'd love to hear from

you. In the meantime, here's one possible approach to

your question ... IMHO, there is no doubt that your

life is being helped along by the Divine, because the

Divine is all that there is. What has changed in *your*

life is the degree to which you have begun to feel and

intuit this. And perhaps now you are ready to feel and

recognize it even more ... which brings us to the whole

purpose of Saadhnaa, as I understand it. Karma

begins to end where Divine Love begins to grow. In this

view, God does not bind us or punish us; in our

darkness, we do this to ourselves. Our karma binds us until

we enjoy the continuous firsthand experience of our

Oneness with the Divine -- that is where Karma "ends."

But since most of us cannot yet claim such an

attainment, it is through Saadhnaa and Divine Love that we

will continue to strive. My two cents, with all

good wishes!

July 17, 2001

//It goes without saying that karma takes effect

only in the physical body; for a debt incurred in a

physical body has to be paid also in such a body, either

in this very body or in a future one. The Vedanta

does not believe in an after death payment; hence

rebirth is necessary.// Do you know how I might

heal my eyes or get rid of my allergy to the

cold? With love, Audra

July 17, 2001

//You don't have to deliberately stop anything.

If you decide and stop something, the 'me' is very

much there! Stopping something is doing

something.// a very good point. If ->I<- stop doing, then

->I<-am doing the act of stoping. hm... It's a bit like

desiring not to desire. lol Still with

love, Audra

July 18, 2001

Karma ends with the birth of Jnana. The following

question posed to Ramana Maharshi might make it clearer

: Q. Is there such a thing as free will? A. Whose

free will is it? You believe it is yours, but you are

beyond will and fate. Abide as That and you will

transcend them both. That is the meaning of conquering

destiny by will. Fate can be conquered. Fate is the

result of karma, but bad vasanas are conquered by

satsang and one's experiences are viewed in the proper

perspective. I now enjoy the fruit of karma, I did in the past

and will in the future. Who is this 'I'? Finding this

'I' to be pure Consciousness beyond karma and

enjoyment, freedom and happiness are discovered. There is

then no effort, for the Self is perfect and there is

nothing to gain. So long as there is individuality, one

is the enjoyer and the doer. But if it is lost, the

divine will act and guide the course of events.

Restrictions and discipline are for jives and not for muktas.

The scriptures imply that free will is good and can

overcome fate. It is done by jnana, "As the fire which is

kindled reduces all fuel to ashes, oh Arjuna, so does the

fire of knowledge reduce all karma to ashes',

Others are not responsible for what happens to us. They

are only instruments for what would happen to us some

way or other. Let us be strong in faith and not

succumb to fear. Whatever happens, happens according to

ur prarabdha. Let it exhaust itself. Evil intentions

and evil actions are natural to the evil-minded. But

their evil will only turn back on themselves, and not

affect us simply because they desire it. One is required

not to think of oneself, so why should there be

anxiety regarding others. Individual human beings

have to suffer their karma, but Iswara manages to make

the best of it for His purpose. God manipulates the

fruit of karma; He does not add or take away from it. A

human being's subconscious state is a warehouse of good

and bad karma. Iswara chooses from this warehouse

what will best suit the person's spiritual evolution

at the time, whether pleasant or painful. Thus

nothing is arbitrary. ------------ Divine Love has

no beginning. It is also called Grace. The very

fact, that you feel the presence of God inside you is

itself Grace. Ramana Maharshi says, "If you seek

God with your whole heart, then you may be assured

that the Grace of God is also seeking

you." Divine Love has neither beginning, nor end. It has

always existed, and will always exist. Hari Aum

!

July 18, 2001

We can heal anything or overcome anything through

Jnana or Bhakthi. Once there was a boy who was

a great devotee. He had the desire to attain

Liberation in this birth itself, and expressed his desire to

Bhagavan Sai Baba. He had 12 more births to go. But his

love was so pure and sincere that Bhagavan yielded.

On the day that the boy left his earthly abode,

Bhagavan went to the river and did a ritual to forego his

future 12 births! Hence, if all that prarabdha

which fills 12 births can be overlooked, why not an

allergy? All we need to have, is pure faith and bhakthi.

Hari Aum !

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