Guest guest Posted July 12, 2001 Report Share Posted July 12, 2001 hmmmm I think good karma is necessary to start even meditation, god comes next.<br><br> If we dont have good karma, we can not start the journey. So Good karma is more powerful than God on the physical plane, as god never comes to us to say "Start meditation".<br><br>kitti Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 12, 2001 Report Share Posted July 12, 2001 Grace leads us to good karma and grace leads us to God.<br><br>Where does this grace come from?<br><br>From the source of all: God Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 12, 2001 Report Share Posted July 12, 2001 Pointing:<br><br>Right!<br><br>Good karma is a reward...brownie points in heaven...money in the bank....treasures stored in our Causal Bodies. Bad karma....result of our own actions. By the grace of God we transmute the bad karma into good.<br><br>Blueray Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 13, 2001 Report Share Posted July 13, 2001 Welcome new members and so wonderful to see you all jump right into saadhna (the practice)! <br><br>Some questions for dialogue ..<br><br>What is Grace? Is there an equivalent for the term in Eastern philosophy? <br><br>Does 'Grace' have to be earned through right actions (good karma) or is it just given by "God"? <br><br>Hoping to see lots of members get into this discussion. All levels of interest are welcome!<br><br>Peace to you all!<br><br>Tat twam asi<br>UMA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 13, 2001 Report Share Posted July 13, 2001 The Grace one received from God is directly proportional to the self-effort that one puts in. Hence it does have to be earned through right actions.<br><br>"The spiritual path is twenty-five percent the disciple's effort, twenty-five percent the Guru's effort on his behalf and fifty percent the grace of God. Don't forget however that the twenty-five percent that is your part represents one hundred percent of your own efforts and sincerity!" (Sayings of Paramahansa Yogananda)<br><br>Hence, self-effort on the disciple's part to the best of his abilities with full faith in God and Guru is the only way towards attaining Self-Realization.<br><br>In Divine Love and Bliss<br><br>-Mukund Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 13, 2001 Report Share Posted July 13, 2001 Wow, what an interesting discussion we have going here with equally interesting responses.<br><br>Here's my take. My own personal definition of grace is the love that cannot be earned. Not that we deserve to be cast out or punished but get love anyway. Rather it is the unconditional love of God of even the most rotten to the core people with the worst karma of them all. That is to say, even though you may have racked up allot of black marks against you, God still loves you enough to help in your spiritual growth.<br><br>Where does the individual come in? If we cannot willingly earn grace, what can we do? We can receive it. We can accept it, do our best to take chances that are given to us and using them to grow spiritually... and that means, in my opinion, letting go of hatred, anger, need to feel the ego etc. and remembering who we really are.<br><br>I do not make much of a distinction between good and bad karma. I think if you ask for it, you get it. If you put out love, it will ripple back to you. Same goes for wealth, war, intilectualism etc. In my opinion (I've said that sllot haven't I?) the goal is to get rid of or let go of karma, thus becomming less involved in our self made illusions and more aware of God/Truth.<br><br>I respect all opinions here, and am more than happy to listen to some one who disagrees with me.<br><br>With karma to kill,<br>Audra<br><br>ps. I may be the karma queen, but I love each and every one of ya! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 13, 2001 Report Share Posted July 13, 2001 Dear Friend:<br><br>That was wonderful! And I guess I'd add a point to it.....God always loves us no matter what, however, the question is whether WE are open to receiving this love from the Spirit. The only thing or the 'door' that might come between us and God is the evil selfishness. Hence, no matter how much karma we have accumulated in the past, if we let go of the evil selfishness (which results in anger, hatred, fear, pride, etc.) NOW, we would find MORE of the Divine Love pouring into our being cleasing us in body, mind and spirit. <br><br>By the way, I've used the term 'evil-selfishness' since it's different from 'spiritual selfishness', which is actually a very positive trait and brings goodness for us as well as the world around us :-)<br><br>In Divine Love and Bliss<br><br>-Mukund Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 13, 2001 Report Share Posted July 13, 2001 Hello:<br>I enjoyed your question about grace. Here is what I came up with:<br><br>Grace is as mysterious as life itself.<br>Grace is of an entirely spiritual nature.<br>It is the appearance of the spirit in a manifest way.<br>Grace is always uplifting and is the force that expels obstacles from our path.<br><br>The Guru is called the grace-bestowing power of God in the Eastern Philosophy.<br><br>Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 13, 2001 Report Share Posted July 13, 2001 Hi:<br><br>Someone once said that Grace and Self-effort are like the two wings of the bird that carries us towards our true home.<br><br>Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 15, 2001 Report Share Posted July 15, 2001 <<If we dont have good karma, we can not start the journey. So Good karma is more powerful than God on the physical plane, as god never comes to us to say "Start meditation".>><br><br>Here is another perspective. Wayne Liquorman, aka Ram Tzu was a chronic alcoholic for about nineteen years, when he suddenly and automatically gave up that habit and became interested in things spiritual. He read Confucious, Osho,dabbled in various kinds of meditations, etc. This went on for sixth months. <br><br>Finally he met his Guru who told him that he was not the doer of his actions, so he need not worry. He gave up his meditations and other spiritual 'practices', and in a very short period, enlightenment happened.<br><br>So where was the good karma that we so much talk about?<br><br>If God wants that enlightenment should happen in a particular body-mind mechanism, He will make it happen no matter what you think you are doing. <br><br>More later.<br><br>Hare Krishna.<br>Rajeev Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 15, 2001 Report Share Posted July 15, 2001 >>He gave up his meditations and other spiritual 'practices', and in a very short period, enlightenment happened.>><br><br>What did he do when he gave up the spiritual practices? Did he choose the life of avidya (ignorance) as a rougue, living in anger, vengence, resentment, arrogantly hurting people? Or did he just give up his attachment and need to control his goals and followed his prescribed duties .. as in nishkaam (without desire) Karma?<br><br>Peace<br><br>Tat twam asi<br>UMA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 15, 2001 Report Share Posted July 15, 2001 This conversation is GREAT brain food!<br><br>In aw and fascination,<br>Audra Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 16, 2001 Report Share Posted July 16, 2001 Mr Rajeev has written <If God wants that enlightenment should happen in a particular body-mind mechanism, He will make it happen no matter what you think you are doing. ><br><br> Well I do not agree. It implies, we need not do any thing and whether we are good of bad God will give us enlightenment when he wishes.<br><br> -God does not distribute enlightenment on lottery draws (like american visa lol which i did not get ), that any tom dick and harry can get it.<br><br> - If he does as he wishes, then He can not be called a justified God, and then why should I be nice, why should I be helpful to others, why should I not cheat, kill and hurt others why should I not induldge in Drinking gambling and sex ?<br><br>- There is certainly something which attracts the attention of God to take us to the path of enlightenment besides his wish. WHAT IS THAT CRITERIA ?<br><br>vinod Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 16, 2001 Report Share Posted July 16, 2001 << Well I do not agree. It implies, we need not do any thing and whether we are good of bad God will give us enlightenment when he wishes.>><br><br>Absolutely. You need not do anything and whether we think we are good or bad, God will give us enlightenment if and exactly when He wishes. In fact, you are not doing anything, anyway. 'You are not the doer of your actions', says the Geeta.<br><br><<If he does as he wishes, then He can not be called a justified God, and then why should I be nice, why should I be helpful to others, why should I not cheat, kill and hurt others why should I not indulge in Drinking gambling and sex ?>><br><br>The concept of a just God is a Pandora’s box. The moment we assign the role of an ethical supreme power to God, we have to create the opposite concept of Satan, who creates all the disturbance. I need not elaborate. Suffice it to say that once we accept the whole universe as His play (Leela), why expect him to play it to the satisfaction of the imagined characters of the play? God has given us no promise to always reward good deeds and punish the evil ones. He would rather not get involved into this business of rewards and punishment (naadatte kasyachit paapam, na chaiva sukritam vibhuh: Geeta). That is too mechanical a job for someone like God.<br><br>If that is so, why shouldn’t you cheat, kill, and hurt others… that is because if you get caught you will be sent to jail, and you don’t want that to happen, do you? Why shouldn’t you indulge in drinking and sex… because too much indulgence in these things is injurious to your body. Why do we have to mystify these simple things?<br><br>Hare Krishna.<br>Rajeev Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 16, 2001 Report Share Posted July 16, 2001 <<What did he (Wayne Liquorman) do when he gave up the spiritual practices? Did he choose the life of avidya (ignorance) as a rougue, living in anger, vengence, resentment, arrogantly hurting people? Or did he just give up his attachment and need to control his goals and followed his prescribed duties .. as in nishkaam (without desire) Karma?>><br><br>What did he do?? The understanding was that he was not the doer of the actions that happened through the body-mind mechanism called Wayne. To ask what he did, is to put the question wrongly. He didn't 'do' anything. That is the understanding.<br><br>Hare krishna.<br>Rajeev Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 16, 2001 Report Share Posted July 16, 2001 Hello Vinod, you said:<br>//that any tom dick and harry can get it.//<br><br>Isn't that the point? I mean, why did Buddha or Jesus or any of the great teachers come? So every Tom, Dick and Harry can get it!<br><br>I'm sorry if you think I'm taking your words out of context. I don't mean to. It's jut something that caught my eye. I remind you that the teacher (when seen as some one speacial) can also serve as a destraction. There are two Zen sayings that come to mind. "As soon as you are attatched to a teacher, leave." and the more famous one "If you meet the Buddha, kill the Buddha.<br><br>With love,<br>Audra Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 16, 2001 Report Share Posted July 16, 2001 ok Here's an idea about not being the doer... Perhaps enlightenment is not done, earned, acheived or even attained. Perhaps it just is and all we need do is to stop doing. That is to say, what if we get very board of ->ME<- and stop being a ->ME<- When that happens.. when we stop doing all the things a ->ME<- does, we remember elightenment and be elightened rather than become enlightened.<br><br>Did I explain my idea well, or is it convoluded?<br><br>With love,<br>Audra<br><br>ps. wondering if I have to stop loving to be enlighened Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 17, 2001 Report Share Posted July 17, 2001 Once a devotee asked Ramana Maharshi the following question.<br><br>Q. Can destiny (karma) ever come to an end?<br>A. Karmas carry in themselves the seeds of their own destruction.<br><br>Note: Karma is the destiny created for oneself by one's free actions. In actions are included thoughts and sensations, motives, good or bad emotions, etc. While working out an old destiny one is bound to create a new one by the manner in which one reacts to its operation. Here then comes the place of free will. We are not free to alter the trend of an old Karma, for example, in the choice of our parents, country, the circumstances of our birth and environments; of our physical and mental fitness and abilities. These are forced on us : we cannot change them. What we can change is the manner in which we receive and work them out. We are all agreed that there are many things in which the decision lies in our hands : the decision is ours, the action is ours, the motive behind the action is ours, the mental attitude with which we do the action is ours too. This often is the field in which we are allowed freedom of will, and it contains the seeds of our future destiny. We can shape that destiny as we will, and if like most people, we are not aware of this truth, we allow ourselves to be carried away by our impulses. We shall eventually land in worse trouble than we are in already. Most often the new karma does not follow on the heel of the one which is being worked out now, so that we drag the chain of our slavery through several lives.<br><br> Here the salutary precepts of the Scriptures come to our rescue to make us rectify our views on life and our attitude towards others. These and the persistent knocks of the destiny gradually soften our impulses, modify our outlooks, sharpen our intellect, and slowly but surely turn us into seekers; then into yogis; and finally into full fledged jnanis, when karma ceases. Jnana totally annihilates it. Let us not forget that all these improved changes - or evolution - take place not in the man himself, but in the faculties which are superimposed on him, that is, in his views and actions. <br><br> Jnana is thus brought about by a good karma, generated by a good free will, which is the result of persistent suffering from a bad karma, generated by a bad free will. Karma is like an inanimate machine, which yields up what you put into it. That is why the master begins his Upadesa Saram with the statement that karma is jada, insentient, unintelligent. What makes it move and act as stern destiny is the energy generated by the exercise of our free will.<br><br> It may be asked that if a persistently bad free will caused by the embitterment resulting from a persistently bad karma brings about a worse karma, which drags us down and down, where is the change of our ever coming up to the surface again? We must not forget the saving Grace of suffering and the inherent purity of our nature, which will not permit us to remain for ever insensible to degradation and misery : we cannot for ever remain sunk in bottomless ignorance and never attempt to climb up to freedom. Suffering and the intense urge to return to ourselves act as flats and buoy us up from the depths of this vast ocean of samsara. Thus the action of karma through suffering gives the impetus to Jnana which destroys karma. This is what Bhagavan means by " karma carries in itself the seeds of its own destruction. " <br><br> It goes without saying that karma takes effect only in the physical body; for a debt incurred in a physical body has to be paid also in such a body, either in this very body or in a future one. The Vedanta does not believe in an after death payment; hence rebirth is necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 17, 2001 Report Share Posted July 17, 2001 <<ps. wondering if I have to stop loving to be enlighened >><br><br>You don't have to deliberately stop anything. If you decide and stop something, the 'me' is very much there! Stopping something is doing something.<br><br>Hare krishna.<br>Rajeev Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 17, 2001 Report Share Posted July 17, 2001 Wow. Excellent post, chitrasrinivas. I just joined this club today and am very impressed already. Just so you know, I'm a 25 year old American born, Catholic raised woman with deep questions about where I should be, religious-wise. I have quite a long story about it that I am willing to share if anyone's interested. But for now, let me just state that I am definitely leaning towards the Hindu path. I'm learning more and more every day.<br><br>I've had quite a bit of struggle myself with this particular topic recently. See, life has been going really well for me (new job, new apartment, losing weight, quitting smoking, off anti-depressants, etc etc etc) and I'm not quite sure exactly why. I do know that I've recently felt God for the first time in this life, and I know that since that instance I've changed my attitude about my karma and my actions. The feeling of knowing God's presence was so powerful to me that I can't help to think that my life is being lead and helped along by the Divine. <br><br>I was told by a Hindu friend that she doesn't "believe in a God that doles out problems and rewards as He/She sees fit". I tend to agree with that statement. However, I do believe that God has a definite role in my life and in my choices. My question is this: Where does karma end and Divine Love begin? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 17, 2001 Report Share Posted July 17, 2001 Hi Sugarandbrine ... and welcome to the club! I am a new member too, upon the kind invitation of Silent Soul (who, I should add, has been most kind and helpful in his correspondence, and encouraged me to go ahead and post here ... so here goes!) ...<br><br>Like you, I am "American born, Catholic raised" and found myself "with deep questions about where I should be, religious-wise." And like you, I was also "definitely leaning towards the Hindu path." I would be honored to hear your story -- and perhaps tell you something of mine, so that we might compare notes. Please drop me a note either here or via e-mail ... I'd love to hear from you.<br><br>In the meantime, here's one possible approach to your question ... IMHO, there is no doubt that your life is being helped along by the Divine, because the Divine is all that there is. What has changed in *your* life is the degree to which you have begun to feel and intuit this. And perhaps now you are ready to feel and recognize it even more ... which brings us to the whole purpose of Saadhnaa, as I understand it.<br><br>Karma begins to end where Divine Love begins to grow. In this view, God does not bind us or punish us; in our darkness, we do this to ourselves. Our karma binds us until we enjoy the continuous firsthand experience of our Oneness with the Divine -- that is where Karma "ends." But since most of us cannot yet claim such an attainment, it is through Saadhnaa and Divine Love that we will continue to strive.<br><br>My two cents, with all good wishes! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 17, 2001 Report Share Posted July 17, 2001 //It goes without saying that karma takes effect only in the physical body; for a debt incurred in a physical body has to be paid also in such a body, either in this very body or in a future one. The Vedanta does not believe in an after death payment; hence rebirth is necessary.//<br><br>Do you know how I might heal my eyes or get rid of my allergy to the cold?<br><br>With love,<br>Audra Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 17, 2001 Report Share Posted July 17, 2001 //You don't have to deliberately stop anything. If you decide and stop something, the 'me' is very much there! Stopping something is doing something.//<br><br>a very good point. If ->I<- stop doing, then ->I<-am doing the act of stoping. hm... It's a bit like desiring not to desire. lol<br><br>Still with love,<br>Audra Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 18, 2001 Report Share Posted July 18, 2001 Karma ends with the birth of Jnana. The following question posed to Ramana Maharshi might make it clearer :<br><br>Q. Is there such a thing as free will?<br>A. Whose free will is it? You believe it is yours, but you are beyond will and fate. Abide as That and you will transcend them both. That is the meaning of conquering destiny by will. Fate can be conquered. Fate is the result of karma, but bad vasanas are conquered by satsang and one's experiences are viewed in the proper perspective.<br> I now enjoy the fruit of karma, I did in the past and will in the future. Who is this 'I'? Finding this 'I' to be pure Consciousness beyond karma and enjoyment, freedom and happiness are discovered. There is then no effort, for the Self is perfect and there is nothing to gain. So long as there is individuality, one is the enjoyer and the doer. But if it is lost, the divine will act and guide the course of events. Restrictions and discipline are for jives and not for muktas. The scriptures imply that free will is good and can overcome fate. It is done by jnana, "As the fire which is kindled reduces all fuel to ashes, oh Arjuna, so does the fire of knowledge reduce all karma to ashes', <br> Others are not responsible for what happens to us. They are only instruments for what would happen to us some way or other. Let us be strong in faith and not succumb to fear. Whatever happens, happens according to ur prarabdha. Let it exhaust itself. Evil intentions and evil actions are natural to the evil-minded. But their evil will only turn back on themselves, and not affect us simply because they desire it. One is required not to think of oneself, so why should there be anxiety regarding others. <br><br>Individual human beings have to suffer their karma, but Iswara manages to make the best of it for His purpose. God manipulates the fruit of karma; He does not add or take away from it. A human being's subconscious state is a warehouse of good and bad karma. Iswara chooses from this warehouse what will best suit the person's spiritual evolution at the time, whether pleasant or painful. Thus nothing is arbitrary. <br>------------<br>Divine Love has no beginning. It is also called Grace. The very fact, that you feel the presence of God inside you is itself Grace.<br><br>Ramana Maharshi says, "If you seek God with your whole heart, then you may be assured that the Grace of God is also seeking you."<br><br>Divine Love has neither beginning, nor end. It has always existed, and will always exist. <br><br>Hari Aum ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 18, 2001 Report Share Posted July 18, 2001 We can heal anything or overcome anything through Jnana or Bhakthi. <br><br>Once there was a boy who was a great devotee. He had the desire to attain Liberation in this birth itself, and expressed his desire to Bhagavan Sai Baba. He had 12 more births to go. But his love was so pure and sincere that Bhagavan yielded. <br>On the day that the boy left his earthly abode, Bhagavan went to the river and did a ritual to forego his future 12 births!<br><br>Hence, if all that prarabdha which fills 12 births can be overlooked, why not an allergy? All we need to have, is pure faith and bhakthi. <br><br>Hari Aum ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.