Visit to Tiruvannamalai & Ramanashramam

February 1, 2003

Dear Murthy and everyone else,

Thanks for the comments and the encouragement. I have to admit, however,

that I have never in my wildest delusions found the pursuit 'heart-warming'

! And I don't believe there has been a great deal of pleasantness emanated

by me over the last 25 years (best ask my wife about that one)! I have

always found the pursuit a total pain in the posterior (not to mention the

knees and various other body parts). If I thought there was anyway I could

possibly avoid this ludicrous pursuit then I would do so gladly. This is

not a criticism of those who do find it pleasant, just a description of my

experience. I find the whole spiritual path about as pleasant as a visit to

the dentist or the doctor. I go to the doctor's because there is something

wrong with me, but I can't claim that I like the experience. Obviously if I

didn't go, then things would be worse.

I do not see how samsara can be pleasant until it comes to an end. The end

of course it to realize the truth that samsara is in fact nirvana. But this

needs to be fully realized. For me, just about every minute of every day I

am confronted by the fact that I am in a situation which I find tedious in

the extreme, along with being generally unpleasant and as far I can see -

pointless. There have been, of course, moments of clarity, but they were

just that - 'moments'. The belief that I may have that I am on a path which

will lead me to release from suffering is not sufficient to make that

suffering pleasant. I have been on meditation retreats where people have

said afterwards how wonderful it all was ! I thought they were totally

deluded. Even if they had pleasant experiences. A bit like somebody in an

airliner plunging to earth looking out the window and enjoying the view

(maybe that is wisdom ? maybe not ?). Or like being fed some disgusting

foul-smelling broth and then being happy because they found a piece of

tomato !

I could go on for a long time, but to sum up I would say - with the greatest

respect to Sri Ramana Maharshi whose teachings I endeavour to follow - I

really do not see the point of all this suffering and I feel totally

frustrated and annoyed at having had to endure it. Even if it is

self-created or non-existent. How much nicer would it have been to be free

from this deluded mind from the outset. If somebody sees a rope and thinks

it is a poisonous snake, does he say to himself 'What a nice snake ?' - I

suspect not, his reaction is much more likely to be negative. As mine has

been so far.

I read in Hindu scriptures about disciples continually wailing and moaning

'when and how will I be delivered from this loathsome samsara ?!' - believe

me such disciples do not exist only in ancient scriptures ! I empathize with

them fully.

Anyway, that's how I see things. Who knows, I may not be the only one ? It

may be important also for people to know that some seekers find the whole

process of seeking an unavoidable but not particularly pleasant pursuit. I

could go on, but I'll call it a day.

Shivoham

Vic

>

>Vic, the pursuit itself is so heart-warming, induces the sathvic

>qualities so much that the pleasantness felt by you and emanating

>from you (and felt by others) is a good enough reward both in

>material and spiritual plane.... (though one shouldn't become proud

>or even complacent with such rewards, the goal of enlightenment need

>not be brooded over, it will happen when it is time);

>

>how much of tilling (vichara) is needed before the seed can be

>planted depends on how hard or easy the land's vaasanaa's (or

>tendencies or karma) is.....

>

>if the conviction is there (thru intelligence and vichara) that

>God/Guru/Grace are all one and the same and is present everywhere and

>in everyone as the substratum, every single event/person/act in this

>world (both natural acts without man's involvement and natural acts

>with man's involvement) can be taken as a guide and the pursuit

>continued;

>

>for ex. think about sunshine and sun; we cannot see sun directly; Sun

>communicates to us thru sunrays; the rays are like jivaathmaa and Sun

>the paramaathmaa; sun rays dont exist by themselves; simple things

>like this should lead us into vichara...

>

>in this b/m/i's understanding it is a full-cycle learning; first you

>negate saying 'I am not this universe' ; 'I am not this body'; 'I am

>not this mind' etc. but when you actually reach the pinnacle of

>finding yourself to be the universal self, you understand and 'know'

>that you are indeed everything (all the things you said you are not);

>

>so, when the individual spirit leaves the body to don another garb in

>its next incarnation, we cannot say the 'self' is not present in the

>dead body left behind, because 'self' is everywhere; in lalitha

>sahasranama, there is a verse which goes: 'chit sakthi chethanaa

>roopa, jadsakthir jadaathmika' which roughly means 'You are the

>sentience in sentient objects and You are the insentience in

>insentient objects';

>

>deep and strong conviction and SINCERE pursuit is what is

>required...; In this case, the pursuit is not an exercise or a

>technique that is foreign to the individual; it cannot be even

>compared to 'swimming' because someone has to teach swimming to a

>human being; this b/m/i feels that the sadhana (or pursuit) suggested

>by Maharshi is so fundamental like breathing that it needs no

>external help; in fact, a sadhak will feel external help not only not

>helpful but also a hindrance....;

>

>if a sensual feeling like taste cannot be communicated by words but

>become fully and perfectly clear only when actually tasted, how can

>anyone describe how it feels to 'Be the Self' and 'what is the path

>and experiences to go there and 'Be the Self' when 'Self' is beyond

>the sense plane and which actually activates individual spirit's

>illusory senses...?

>

>that is the reason vedas proclaims themselves as something to be

>discarded eventually.... (not in the beginning..., lol)

>

>in short, there is no need to brood over the lack of a "physical"

>Guru; Maharshi's words act like Guru themselves and when the time is

>ripe, Maharshi will appear and you will "know" that he has appeared

>for you...

>

>all the above are purely this b/m/i's assimilation and may or may not

>be acceptable to others' view points; so review/comments/criticisms

>welcome; the idea is to openly share and not pose as an expert which

>this b/m/i knows for sure it is not... :-)

>

>love....

>

>RamanaMaharshi, Yamini Gourishankar

><yaminigs> wrote:

> > Hi Jacqueline and Joseph,

> >

> > I am copying my brother Vidyashankar here. I will

> > update him when I talk to him next time. But feel

> > free to connect with him and find out more about

> > Ramanasramam.

>

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February 1, 2003

Dear Jacqueline,

I hope you don’t mind my answering again. It just seems to flow out.

I never thought I had much use for astrology, even though I was closed to

people who were into western astrology.

A few years ago when still living in India most of the year, I came across a

book on Hindu astrology by deFouw/Svoboda. There was this strong urge to buy it

and so I did. I looked into it and didn’t understand anything. I also

realized that from Maharshi’s standpoint there is no need for astrology,

but its part of Hindu culture and so I started to study it seriously during the

last years..

Working as a psychologist Hindu astrology is a good aid for me. It helps me to

understand people’s life even better and its a good medium to help

people, who are not yet connected spiritually, to realize that there is

something bigger than them, to see that there is a purpose in live.

The birthchart is nothing but a map of your karmas. And even though there are

all sorts of remedies, like gemstones, mantras to soften the planet’s

impact, their working is doubtful. Everyone has to suffer their karmas. There

is no free will.

As you say with Maharshi, your only choice is to identify with the karmas or to

ask “for whom are those karmas” and let them happen.

Sure the astrologer can see a lot and he can give you some clues as to when a

better period starts or when to watch out, but in the end, you have to make the

effort. Its an aid, nothing more.

But it surely makes interesting study. It is part of the vedas and also a

sadhana, if done in the right spirit.

Namah Shivaya

Christina

Am 2/2/03 20:17 schrieb "jacqueline_jacques <jacqueline_jacques >"

unter <jacqueline_jacques >:

Dear Vic and all!

Happy New Year (Chinese Goat Year!)

I have read your other messages to this forum and I could feel

exactly what you felt. I believe that it is good that you expressed

your frustration (to take it out of you). I have felt like in

an "arid desert" for many years. I also did not understand God's

purpose for this whole creation etc. I went through all types of

emotions from anger to sorrow (I even envied those who quit this

earth......).

At one point, I used astrology to help me to cope with my life. I

have read somewhere in Baghavan's Teachings that using astrology

means that one has not COMPLETELY surrendered. Furthermore, astrology

reinforces the belief that one is a human, has a birth, etc. I

agreed with this in theory. But this is hard to apply when one is not

yet established in the Self ( an ajnani).

I would like to give you my perspective (one whose experiece with

Self is more theoritical that practical). I understand that I need to

go through some difficult times due to karma, etc.. My question in

those times is always: How Long O Lord? How Long? This is where I

believe true vedic astrology can help (I certainly do not talk about

those horoscope predictions). The key is to find a good vedic

astrologer!. The astrologer will tell what type of energy one is

dealing with. Everything is there in the chart to be decoded by a

good astrologer (karma, cycle, etc.). I do not say that one has to

depend on an astrologer for everything (in the past, I visited an

astrologer every 2 years). I always make a prayer to Shiva to

enlighten the astrologer so that the astrologer will tell me exactly

what I need at that particular moment. I am sure that some readers

might disagree with me but my experience is that astrology helped me

to understand my cycles (mainly as I did not have a physical

guru). .

I would like also to tell you that Amma (who is the self-

realized "hugging" hindu saint - I hope you know her) has an

astrologer traveling with her to give consultations to the devotees.

A few months ago, I read in Bhagavan'Teachings that we do not have

real free will (things are kind of predestined - this might not be

the right way of saying it). What a relief! I did not have to

struggle any more against my karma etc. As Ramana Maharshi puts it:

Whatever is destined to happen will happen and whatever is not

destined to happen will not happen. In that context, I really think

that having a good reading of one's astrology chart could be very

helpfull (for the ajnanis)! Those who disagree are welcome to comment.

Finally, I want to say that I know about Sri Lakshaman Swamy and

Mathru Sri Sarada. I have read their book in French "No mind I am the

Self" (the translator is my friend's friend). Wonderful! I was told

that the book is not available in English any more. I have experience

a lot of help from them. I hope you will find the book (look at his

picture on internet) I look at his eyes and give him my questions,

concerns, etc....I had amazing results). I was sorry to learn that he

does not give anymore darshan during MahaSivaratri. I will certainly

go back in Tiru... next December to receive his darshan.

Sorry for this long message.

I am sure that one day, we will directly experience the Infinite Self

within our Heart. Let's keep on keeping on.....

Om Namah Shivaya!

Jacqueline

RamanaMaharshi, "vic w" <shivaguy108@h...>

wrote:

> Dear Jacqueline and everyone else,

>

> I feel like I have been through the same turbulent Jupiter spin

cycle for

> the last 16 years ! Is it a general thing or does each of us get to

go

> through a different one ? Hopefully, I might benefit from the 19

year

> positive cycle too.

>

> After 25 years of seeking I can imagine what a relief it must have

been to

> find Sri Ramana. When I found him (or, when he found me, which I

suspect is

> closer to the truth) back in 1974, I was pretty desperate and it

was an

> amazing revelation to discover someone who not only understood all

the

> questions I was asking but also had all the answers ! What also

struck me

> was his total lack of ego, which I had never encountered in any of

the books

> I had read or people I had met. I knew virtually nothing of

Vedanta at the

> time.

>

> Have you read the 'Path of Sri Ramana Part I' by Sri Sadhu Om ? To

my mind

> it gives the best explanation of how to go about doing 'Who Am I ?'

although

> as I understand it, 'Who Am I ?' is the method suggested for those

who can't

> just 'Be Still'.

>

> I don't know if you intend leaving the Ashram at all while you are

there but

> people speak very highly of Sri Lakshmana Swami and Saradamma, I'm

not sure

> if someone has mentioned them already, - they have, I believe, an

Ashram

> just opposite Sri Ramanashraman (perhaps someone else could confirm

this ?)

>

> Good luck with all the various detoxes !

>

> Finally, if you, or anyone else, are interested in Hindu chanting

with a

> Western flavour you might like to visit this site

>

> http://www.americansanskrit.com/inspire/audio.html

>

> where you can download chanting (some of it free) - I recommend

the 'Songs

> to Shiva'. The site is nothing to do with me, so this is not an

ad. !

>

> Best regards

>

> Vic

>

> _______________

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February 1, 2003

Yes, empathy is definitely needed and also justified like you very

well put it...

samsaric misery is primarily due to attachment; attachment of the ego

to the body/personality which results in attachment to external

entities like relations/friends/society/wealth/hobbies etc and these

are the direct cause of misery;

the troubles this writer is undergoing in professional life and sees

other people undergoing in professional and/or personal life are

innumerable; in the midst of all this, seeking (to find the TRUTH

which brings permanent happiness) has got to be at least a change if

not a pleasant experience; of course, anything unusual or strange to

the ego will be foreign and annoying and even fearful in the

beginning.

in your case, may be it is the "exertion" or "hard striving" that

results in this pain or unpleasantness even in the spiritual pursuit;

or may be not....

if physically sitting (in exclusive meditative sessions) is causing

physical problems (stiff knees etc.), may be a lying posture may be

more helpful; there was one swamiji who suggested lying on the back

(in the sava-asana (or a 'dead body' pose) and 'letting go'

everything; this may make one feel lighter as they go (of course,

there is a risk of dozing off to sleep... :-) ;

if the pain is not physical but one of surroundings not being

conducive, occasional times in solitude (even that which is spent in

the bathroom) may be used to at least contemplate if not meditate;

this writer reads in bits and pieces (even sacred gurus' writings and

sometimes even religious oriented stuff) including, at times, in the

bathroom; yes, did wonder in the beginning if it is ok to read these

texts in the bathroom then thought as one purges the body of dirt and

filth, there is nothing wrong in purging the mind of dirt and filth

by pumping in 'wise' stuff...

as far as emanating pleasantness, I meant purely the sadhana (during

interactional times) of toning down one's ego, listening more, being

less judgemental etc. etc.

ha ha, yes, even in this writer's case, the wife always asks (or

chides), "if you reduce your ego level and consider others' abuses

and brickbats and mean behaviour as 'teachings' or 'training' for

your (spiritual) advancement , the whole world would become unfair to

you very soon. Isn't that a risk you are taking ?"; and the answer

that comes to mind is : "yes, that is true, but so be it";

the pleasantness comes because one is being less reactive and one is

able to handle such unfairness tactfully and properly...

(as they say here not being a jerk does not mean you should be a wimp)

in a conversation with a friend/work partner, this writer mentioned

that in Mahabharata, Kunti said to Krishna : "O Krishna, many may not

believe it, but I do know that you are the Lord of Universe; I also

know that we, lay humans, normally do not think of the Providence

unless we go through hardships. So, please give me only one boon:

please give grief to me always and in abundant measure so that I can

always think of you"; You know what, she got only more and more

grief" ha ha ha; So, I told my friend, we should also pray to get

grief and only grief...

the friend called back after 2 hours saying he just finished a

conversation with a customer and the customer was being very mean and

scheamy and does not understand our value despite all they have seen

so far and concluded "Murthy, here is your grief, you got it".... ha

ha ha;

life is intrinsically unfair, my dear friend; so ?

'so be it'; it doesn't matter....

instead, we may learn from this unfair world; yes, we do get

frustrated in the process; but does it lead us to dispassion or do we

continue to seek more and more 'transient' pleasure;

it is our choice to alter our course and say 'you know what, let me

see what will give me true and permanent happiness" ?; there lies our

wisdom....

of course, the above does not mean we do not take corrective action

when things go wrong or when people scheam against us; in fact, our

reaction will be more collected and proper (and immensely tactful) if

we stay (emotionally) unaffected by the unfair behaviour of the other

party...

remember reading either in Swami Vivekananda's life or somewhere

else: once a very wise disciple of a swamiji was being abused by the

other jealous disciples; I think the story goes, the mischevous ones

started throwing stones at the disciple while the latter was in

meditation and they also laughed saying ... 'haha, look at this wise

one, will the soul get affected by stones?'; after some time, it

seems the wise disciple said : 'the soul may not but the body could

and would'....

love.....

RamanaMaharshi, "vic w" <shivaguy108@h...>

wrote:

> Dear Murthy and everyone else,

>

> Thanks for the comments and the encouragement. I have to admit,

however,

> that I have never in my wildest delusions found the pursuit 'heart-

warming'

> ! And I don't believe there has been a great deal of pleasantness

emanated

February 2, 2003

Dear Murthy, Chris and everyone else,

Thanks for taking the time to consider my post and to comment upon it.

Firstly, I should apologize for some confusion which I seem to have

inadvertenly caused. The pain I feel is very rarely physical, in fact I

have had very little physical trouble, the reference to the knees was just

an aside really. No doubt I should be grateful that I have had so few

physical problems (I'm afraid gratitude is not one of my strong points !).

The pain I was referring to was purely mental. The pain which you feel when

you wake up in the morning and you wish you hadn't. As I mentioned in one of

my earlier posts - I have been on this 'path' since 1974, and since then

(after the relief at having found a way out of this samsaric existence)I

have felt mostly anger and frustration at still being stuck in this state.

I decided to write about it because I find it difficult to understand why so

many people find being on a spiritual path so pleasant, (or maybe everybody

is just putting a brave face on things as they don't want to burden everyone

else with their negative feelings). Clearly being on the path is better

than not being on it, but I find it hard to call it pleasant. Given the

choice would people rather be an enlightened jnani or a seeker ? And if one

is a seeker, how does one seek without feeling the frustration of the whole

process ? I suppose it is possible, but for me it has not been so. As you

say Murthy - 'prarabdha karma' - but highly annoying nevertheless. The idea

that the Self created duality in order to be reunited with itself I find

interesting but rather odd, but who knows maybe it's true.

Anyway, all that was yesterday, today strangely enough I had some insight

into the cause of my problems. Up until now I had been saying 'I am

unhappy' or 'why aren't I enlightened yet?' or words to that effect, whereas

in fact it was not me that was unhappy at all, it was my mind that was

unhappy ! So now when my mind says 'ugh what an awful place' or when the

thought arises 'why aren't I enlightened yet ?' - I just listen politely

until it stops. So the crux of the problem was identification with the

mind, - so now when identification with the mind arises I just wait till it

goes away. Thoughts come and go - but they are not me. Lol - simple really.

Shivoham

Vic

>ccameron

>RamanaMaharshi

><RamanaMaharshi>

>Re: [RamanaMaharshi] Re: Visit to Tiruvannamalai & Ramanashramam

>Sat, 01 Feb 2003 12:37:01 +0100

>

>Dear Vic,

>

>I have been thinking about your letter a lot and was going to answer last

>night also suggesting lying down if you have problems sitting for a long

>time in meditation. I admit that I was worried, of being ³corrected² by

>more

>³orthodox² practitioners. The truth is that I do a lot of enquiry while

>lying down. Of course, there is the danger of dropping of to sleep, but

>with

>practice it does not happen so much. And anyway it has been recommended to

>to enquiry just before going to sleep and also just as you are waking up

>before the I-thought rises again. The tibetans also have the ³sleeping

>lion²

>posture which is lying down on your right side, hand under the head, legs

>slighty bended. The important thing is to practice and if you are most

>comfortable standing on your head that¹s also ok, in my unimportant view.

>Of

>course at a retreat the group presssure might be to high to meditate in

>your

>way, but in your 4 walls, who cares.

>Anyway, our Bhagawan was an extremely tolerant Jnani. There is the story of

>an american lady not being able to sit in the correct way in his

>presence........i guess its a well known story. He took her side.

>Who is there to be sad, I know. But I am writing from the point of the

>seeker so I depense with terms like ³this person etc². We all know. Well,

>how can Samsara be pleasant? And you can regard the fact that you

>understand

>this as the greatest gift. Because as long as you seek pleasures in

>Samsara,

>there can be no Jnana. That doesn¹ t make it easier in the beginning, but

>as

>you get along with your practice you will find a new sense of humour rising

>and you will be able to face your karmas with more fortitude and sometimes

>you will even be able to laugh about it all.

>

> > . I find the whole spiritual path about as pleasant as a visit to

> > the dentist or the doctor. I go to the doctor's because there is

>something

> > wrong with me, but I can't claim that I like the experience. Obviously

>if I

> > didn't go, then things would be worse.

> >

> > Take heart from the fact that you recognized the ³illness² and whats

>more: you

> > have found the best doctor availabe to cure you. The Sadguru Ramana.

>That in

> > itself is the biggest boon.

> >

> > I do not see how samsara can be pleasant until it comes to an end. The

>end

> > of course it to realize the truth that samsara is in fact nirvana. But

>this

> > needs to be fully realized.

> >

> > First of all try to realize who you are. Sorry, I don¹t want to sound

> > oversmart

> >

> > For me, just about every minute of every day I

> > am confronted by the fact that I am in a situation which I find tedious

>in

> > the extreme, along with being generally unpleasant and as far I can see

>-

> > pointless. There have been, of course, moments of clarity, but they

>were

> > just that - 'moments'. The belief that I may have that I am on a path

>which

> > will lead me to release from suffering is not sufficient to make that

> > suffering pleasant.

> >

> > The sufferings you experience are your prarabdha karmas, the karmas that

>are

> > due in this life. The only choice you have is to identify with them or

>to ask

> > ³to whom are these karmas?² With Guruji¹s grace you will acquire more

> > fortitude to bear your load.

> >

> > Mine is also really heavy and at times I feel really sorry for my little

>self.

> > But these feelings get weakened the more you are able to surrender.

> >

> > I could go on for a long time, but to sum up I would say - with the

>greatest

> > respect to Sri Ramana Maharshi whose teachings I endeavour to follow - I

> > really do not see the point of all this suffering and I feel totally

> > frustrated and annoyed at having had to endure it. Even if it is

> > self-created or non-existent. How much nicer would it have been to be

>free

> > from this deluded mind from the outset. If somebody sees a rope and

>thinks

> > it is a poisonous snake, does he say to himself 'What a nice snake ?' -

>I

> > suspect not, his reaction is much more likely to be negative. As mine

>has

> > been so far.

> >

> > Without this negative reaction there would be no end to samsara

> >

> > I read in Hindu scriptures about disciples continually wailing and

>moaning

> > 'when and how will I be delivered from this loathsome samsara ?!' -

>believe

> > me such disciples do not exist only in ancient scriptures ! I empathize

>with

> > them fully.

> >

> > Two Sadhus were sitting under a tree. I think it was Lord Vishnu they

>asked

> > when they would get Moksha. To the first Sadhu he said, your time has

>almost

> > come, maybe only 5 or 6 lives. The sadhu started wailin. What not in

>this

> > life?. Still 5 or 6 lives. How terrible.... To the second sadhu he said:

>you

> > will get moksha after as many lives as this tree has leaves. The sadhu

>begab

> > dancing with joy. Only a few more lives and moksha will come, the lord

>himself

> > has confirmed it. How wonderful. In that minute a big storm rose and

>started

> > blowing off the leaves. As the last leaf got blown off, the sadhu

>realized the

> > self.

> >

> > So its just a matter of looking at it all more positive.

> >

> > Anyway, that's how I see things. Who knows, I may not be the only one ?

>It

> > may be important also for people to know that some seekers find the

>whole

> > process of seeking an unavoidable but not particularly pleasant pursuit.

> I

> > could go on, but I'll call it a day.

> >

> > I think most seekers struggle. Depending on karmas more or less. Maybe

> > focusing on the development of love for the sadguru (and all creatures)

>might

> > help. Read about Ramana and his life. A life so pure......it brings

>tears to

> > even contemplate it. Or fall in love with the Goddess in one of her

>forms.

> > (That¹s what I find so wonderful about Hinduism. There are so many

>loveable

> > forms of God, its easy to develop devotion. Look at God as a lover,

>friend,

> > father, sister, daughter. You know. I mean don¹t stop enquiry, just

>develop

> > the bhakti side also. Talk to Ramanana, tell him about your problems.

>After a

> > while you will find samsaric life easier as you start to see your

>beloved

> > Godess/Guru in all beings and start hearing his voice inside more and

>more

> > clear. Because in the end even vichara is not a mental process.

> >

> > If I sound confusing, please ask.

> >

> > Namah Shivaya

> >

> > Love from the unpleasant city of Berlin

> >

> > Chris

> >

> >> >

> >> >Vic, the pursuit itself is so heart-warming, induces the sathvic

> >> >qualities so much that the pleasantness felt by you and emanating

> >> >from you (and felt by others) is a good enough reward both in

> >> >material and spiritual plane.... (though one shouldn't become proud

> >> >or even complacent with such rewards, the goal of enlightenment need

> >> >not be brooded over, it will happen when it is time);

> >> >

> >> >how much of tilling (vichara) is needed before the seed can be

> >> >planted depends on how hard or easy the land's vaasanaa's (or

> >> >tendencies or karma) is.....

> >> >

> >> >if the conviction is there (thru intelligence and vichara) that

> >> >God/Guru/Grace are all one and the same and is present everywhere and

> >> >in everyone as the substratum, every single event/person/act in this

> >> >world (both natural acts without man's involvement and natural acts

> >> >with man's involvement) can be taken as a guide and the pursuit

> >> >continued;

> >> >

> >> >for ex. think about sunshine and sun; we cannot see sun directly; Sun

> >> >communicates to us thru sunrays; the rays are like jivaathmaa and Sun

> >> >the paramaathmaa; sun rays dont exist by themselves; simple things

> >> >like this should lead us into vichara...

> >> >

> >> >in this b/m/i's understanding it is a full-cycle learning; first you

> >> >negate saying 'I am not this universe' ; 'I am not this body'; 'I am

> >> >not this mind' etc. but when you actually reach the pinnacle of

> >> >finding yourself to be the universal self, you understand and 'know'

> >> >that you are indeed everything (all the things you said you are not);

> >> >

> >> >so, when the individual spirit leaves the body to don another garb in

> >> >its next incarnation, we cannot say the 'self' is not present in the

> >> >dead body left behind, because 'self' is everywhere; in lalitha

> >> >sahasranama, there is a verse which goes: 'chit sakthi chethanaa

> >> >roopa, jadsakthir jadaathmika' which roughly means 'You are the

> >> >sentience in sentient objects and You are the insentience in

> >> >insentient objects';

> >> >

> >> >deep and strong conviction and SINCERE pursuit is what is

> >> >required...; In this case, the pursuit is not an exercise or a

> >> >technique that is foreign to the individual; it cannot be even

> >> >compared to 'swimming' because someone has to teach swimming to a

> >> >human being; this b/m/i feels that the sadhana (or pursuit) suggested

> >> >by Maharshi is so fundamental like breathing that it needs no

> >> >external help; in fact, a sadhak will feel external help not only not

> >> >helpful but also a hindrance....;

> >> >

> >> >if a sensual feeling like taste cannot be communicated by words but

> >> >become fully and perfectly clear only when actually tasted, how can

> >> >anyone describe how it feels to 'Be the Self' and 'what is the path

> >> >and experiences to go there and 'Be the Self' when 'Self' is beyond

> >> >the sense plane and which actually activates individual spirit's

> >> >illusory senses...?

> >> >

> >> >that is the reason vedas proclaims themselves as something to be

> >> >discarded eventually.... (not in the beginning..., lol)

> >> >

> >> >in short, there is no need to brood over the lack of a "physical"

> >> >Guru; Maharshi's words act like Guru themselves and when the time is

> >> >ripe, Maharshi will appear and you will "know" that he has appeared

> >> >for you...

> >> >

> >> >all the above are purely this b/m/i's assimilation and may or may not

> >> >be acceptable to others' view points; so review/comments/criticisms

> >> >welcome; the idea is to openly share and not pose as an expert which

> >> >this b/m/i knows for sure it is not... :-)

> >> >

> >> >love....

> >> >

> >> >RamanaMaharshi, Yamini Gourishankar

> >> ><yaminigs> wrote:

> >>> > > Hi Jacqueline and Joseph,

> >>> > >

> >>> > > I am copying my brother Vidyashankar here. I will

> >>> > > update him when I talk to him next time. But feel

> >>> > > free to connect with him and find out more about

> >>> > > Ramanasramam.

> >> >

> >

> > _______________

> > Chat online in real time with MSN Messenger http://messenger.msn.co.uk

> >

> > Post message: RamanaMaharshi

> > Subscribe: RamanaMaharshi-

> > Un: RamanaMaharshi-

> > List owner: RamanaMaharshi-owner

> >

> > Shortcut URL to this page:

> > /community/RamanaMaharshi

> >

> > Terms of Service

> > <> .

>

_______________

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February 2, 2003

Dear Chris,

What a wonderful insight, that the issue is not the thoughts, but

rather your attachment to them. You are on the right path.

We are not two,

Richard

RamanaMaharshi, "vic w" <shivaguy108@h...>

wrote:

>

> Dear Murthy, Chris and everyone else,

>

> Thanks for taking the time to consider my post and to comment upon

it.

> Firstly, I should apologize for some confusion which I seem to have

> inadvertenly caused. The pain I feel is very rarely physical, in

fact I

> have had very little physical trouble, the reference to the knees

was just

> an aside really. No doubt I should be grateful that I have had so

few

> physical problems (I'm afraid gratitude is not one of my strong

points !).

> The pain I was referring to was purely mental. The pain which you

feel when

> you wake up in the morning and you wish you hadn't. As I mentioned

in one of

> my earlier posts - I have been on this 'path' since 1974, and since

then

> (after the relief at having found a way out of this samsaric

existence)I

> have felt mostly anger and frustration at still being stuck in this

state.

> I decided to write about it because I find it difficult to

understand why so

> many people find being on a spiritual path so pleasant, (or maybe

everybody

> is just putting a brave face on things as they don't want to burden

everyone

> else with their negative feelings). Clearly being on the path is

better

> than not being on it, but I find it hard to call it pleasant. Given

the

> choice would people rather be an enlightened jnani or a seeker ?

And if one

> is a seeker, how does one seek without feeling the frustration of

the whole

> process ? I suppose it is possible, but for me it has not been so.

As you

> say Murthy - 'prarabdha karma' - but highly annoying nevertheless.

The idea

> that the Self created duality in order to be reunited with itself I

find

> interesting but rather odd, but who knows maybe it's true.

>

> Anyway, all that was yesterday, today strangely enough I had some

insight

> into the cause of my problems. Up until now I had been saying 'I

am

> unhappy' or 'why aren't I enlightened yet?' or words to that

effect, whereas

> in fact it was not me that was unhappy at all, it was my mind that

was

> unhappy ! So now when my mind says 'ugh what an awful place' or

when the

> thought arises 'why aren't I enlightened yet ?' - I just listen

politely

> until it stops. So the crux of the problem was identification with

the

> mind, - so now when identification with the mind arises I just wait

till it

> goes away. Thoughts come and go - but they are not me. Lol -

simple really.

> Shivoham

> Vic

>

> >ccameron@t...

> >RamanaMaharshi

> ><RamanaMaharshi>

> >Re: [RamanaMaharshi] Re: Visit to Tiruvannamalai &

Ramanashramam

> >Sat, 01 Feb 2003 12:37:01 +0100

> >

> >Dear Vic,

> >

> >I have been thinking about your letter a lot and was going to

answer last

> >night also suggesting lying down if you have problems sitting for

a long

> >time in meditation. I admit that I was worried, of being

³corrected² by

> >more

> >³orthodox² practitioners. The truth is that I do a lot of enquiry

while

> >lying down. Of course, there is the danger of dropping of to

sleep, but

> >with

> >practice it does not happen so much. And anyway it has been

recommended to

> >to enquiry just before going to sleep and also just as you are

waking up

> >before the I-thought rises again. The tibetans also have the

³sleeping

> >lion²

> >posture which is lying down on your right side, hand under the

head, legs

> >slighty bended. The important thing is to practice and if you are

most

> >comfortable standing on your head that¹s also ok, in my

unimportant view.

> >Of

> >course at a retreat the group presssure might be to high to

meditate in

> >your

> >way, but in your 4 walls, who cares.

> >Anyway, our Bhagawan was an extremely tolerant Jnani. There is the

story of

> >an american lady not being able to sit in the correct way in his

> >presence........i guess its a well known story. He took her side.

> >Who is there to be sad, I know. But I am writing from the point of

the

> >seeker so I depense with terms like ³this person etc². We all

know. Well,

> >how can Samsara be pleasant? And you can regard the fact that you

> >understand

> >this as the greatest gift. Because as long as you seek pleasures

in

> >Samsara,

> >there can be no Jnana. That doesn¹ t make it easier in the

beginning, but

> >as

> >you get along with your practice you will find a new sense of

humour rising

> >and you will be able to face your karmas with more fortitude and

sometimes

> >you will even be able to laugh about it all.

> >

> > > . I find the whole spiritual path about as pleasant as a visit

to

> > > the dentist or the doctor. I go to the doctor's because there

is

> >something

> > > wrong with me, but I can't claim that I like the experience.

Obviously

> >if I

> > > didn't go, then things would be worse.

> > >

> > > Take heart from the fact that you recognized the ³illness² and

whats

> >more: you

> > > have found the best doctor availabe to cure you. The Sadguru

Ramana.

> >That in

> > > itself is the biggest boon.

> > >

> > > I do not see how samsara can be pleasant until it comes to an

end. The

> >end

> > > of course it to realize the truth that samsara is in fact

nirvana. But

> >this

> > > needs to be fully realized.

> > >

> > > First of all try to realize who you are. Sorry, I don¹t want to

sound

> > > oversmart

> > >

> > > For me, just about every minute of every day I

> > > am confronted by the fact that I am in a situation which I find

tedious

> >in

> > > the extreme, along with being generally unpleasant and as far I

can see

> >-

> > > pointless. There have been, of course, moments of clarity, but

they

> >were

> > > just that - 'moments'. The belief that I may have that I am on

a path

> >which

> > > will lead me to release from suffering is not sufficient to

make that

> > > suffering pleasant.

> > >

> > > The sufferings you experience are your prarabdha karmas, the

karmas that

> >are

> > > due in this life. The only choice you have is to identify with

them or

> >to ask

> > > ³to whom are these karmas?² With Guruji¹s grace you will

acquire more

> > > fortitude to bear your load.

> > >

> > > Mine is also really heavy and at times I feel really sorry for

my little

> >self.

> > > But these feelings get weakened the more you are able to

surrender.

> > >

> > > I could go on for a long time, but to sum up I would say - with

the

> >greatest

> > > respect to Sri Ramana Maharshi whose teachings I endeavour to

follow - I

> > > really do not see the point of all this suffering and I feel

totally

> > > frustrated and annoyed at having had to endure it. Even if it is

> > > self-created or non-existent. How much nicer would it have been

to be

> >free

> > > from this deluded mind from the outset. If somebody sees a rope

and

> >thinks

> > > it is a poisonous snake, does he say to himself 'What a nice

snake ?' -

> >I

> > > suspect not, his reaction is much more likely to be negative.

As mine

> >has

> > > been so far.

> > >

> > > Without this negative reaction there would be no end to samsara

> > >

> > > I read in Hindu scriptures about disciples continually wailing

and

> >moaning

> > > 'when and how will I be delivered from this loathsome

samsara ?!' -

> >believe

> > > me such disciples do not exist only in ancient scriptures ! I

empathize

> >with

> > > them fully.

> > >

> > > Two Sadhus were sitting under a tree. I think it was Lord

Vishnu they

> >asked

> > > when they would get Moksha. To the first Sadhu he said, your

time has

> >almost

> > > come, maybe only 5 or 6 lives. The sadhu started wailin. What

not in

> >this

> > > life?. Still 5 or 6 lives. How terrible.... To the second sadhu

he said:

> >you

> > > will get moksha after as many lives as this tree has leaves.

The sadhu

> >begab

> > > dancing with joy. Only a few more lives and moksha will come,

the lord

> >himself

> > > has confirmed it. How wonderful. In that minute a big storm

rose and

> >started

> > > blowing off the leaves. As the last leaf got blown off, the

sadhu

> >realized the

> > > self.

> > >

> > > So its just a matter of looking at it all more positive.

> > >

> > > Anyway, that's how I see things. Who knows, I may not be the

only one ?

> >It

> > > may be important also for people to know that some seekers find

the

> >whole

> > > process of seeking an unavoidable but not particularly pleasant

pursuit.

> > I

> > > could go on, but I'll call it a day.

> > >

> > > I think most seekers struggle. Depending on karmas more or

less. Maybe

> > > focusing on the development of love for the sadguru (and all

creatures)

> >might

> > > help. Read about Ramana and his life. A life so pure......it

brings

> >tears to

> > > even contemplate it. Or fall in love with the Goddess in one of

her

> >forms.

> > > (That¹s what I find so wonderful about Hinduism. There are so

many

> >loveable

> > > forms of God, its easy to develop devotion. Look at God as a

lover,

> >friend,

> > > father, sister, daughter. You know. I mean don¹t stop enquiry,

just

> >develop

> > > the bhakti side also. Talk to Ramanana, tell him about your

problems.

> >After a

> > > while you will find samsaric life easier as you start to see

your

> >beloved

> > > Godess/Guru in all beings and start hearing his voice inside

more and

> >more

> > > clear. Because in the end even vichara is not a mental process.

> > >

> > > If I sound confusing, please ask.

> > >

> > > Namah Shivaya

> > >

> > > Love from the unpleasant city of Berlin

> > >

> > > Chris

> > >

> > >> >

> > >> >Vic, the pursuit itself is so heart-warming, induces the

sathvic

> > >> >qualities so much that the pleasantness felt by you and

emanating

> > >> >from you (and felt by others) is a good enough reward both in

> > >> >material and spiritual plane.... (though one shouldn't become

proud

> > >> >or even complacent with such rewards, the goal of

enlightenment need

> > >> >not be brooded over, it will happen when it is time);

> > >> >

> > >> >how much of tilling (vichara) is needed before the seed can be

> > >> >planted depends on how hard or easy the land's vaasanaa's (or

> > >> >tendencies or karma) is.....

> > >> >

> > >> >if the conviction is there (thru intelligence and vichara)

that

> > >> >God/Guru/Grace are all one and the same and is present

everywhere and

> > >> >in everyone as the substratum, every single event/person/act

in this

> > >> >world (both natural acts without man's involvement and

natural acts

> > >> >with man's involvement) can be taken as a guide and the

pursuit

> > >> >continued;

> > >> >

> > >> >for ex. think about sunshine and sun; we cannot see sun

directly; Sun

> > >> >communicates to us thru sunrays; the rays are like jivaathmaa

and Sun

> > >> >the paramaathmaa; sun rays dont exist by themselves; simple

things

> > >> >like this should lead us into vichara...

> > >> >

> > >> >in this b/m/i's understanding it is a full-cycle learning;

first you

> > >> >negate saying 'I am not this universe' ; 'I am not this

body'; 'I am

> > >> >not this mind' etc. but when you actually reach the pinnacle

of

> > >> >finding yourself to be the universal self, you understand

and 'know'

> > >> >that you are indeed everything (all the things you said you

are not);

> > >> >

> > >> >so, when the individual spirit leaves the body to don another

garb in

> > >> >its next incarnation, we cannot say the 'self' is not present

in the

> > >> >dead body left behind, because 'self' is everywhere; in

lalitha

> > >> >sahasranama, there is a verse which goes: 'chit sakthi

chethanaa

> > >> >roopa, jadsakthir jadaathmika' which roughly means 'You are

the

> > >> >sentience in sentient objects and You are the insentience in

> > >> >insentient objects';

> > >> >

> > >> >deep and strong conviction and SINCERE pursuit is what is

> > >> >required...; In this case, the pursuit is not an exercise or a

> > >> >technique that is foreign to the individual; it cannot be even

> > >> >compared to 'swimming' because someone has to teach swimming

to a

> > >> >human being; this b/m/i feels that the sadhana (or pursuit)

suggested

> > >> >by Maharshi is so fundamental like breathing that it needs no

> > >> >external help; in fact, a sadhak will feel external help not

only not

> > >> >helpful but also a hindrance....;

> > >> >

> > >> >if a sensual feeling like taste cannot be communicated by

words but

> > >> >become fully and perfectly clear only when actually tasted,

how can

> > >> >anyone describe how it feels to 'Be the Self' and 'what is

the path

> > >> >and experiences to go there and 'Be the Self' when 'Self' is

beyond

> > >> >the sense plane and which actually activates individual

spirit's

> > >> >illusory senses...?

> > >> >

> > >> >that is the reason vedas proclaims themselves as something to

be

> > >> >discarded eventually.... (not in the beginning..., lol)

> > >> >

> > >> >in short, there is no need to brood over the lack of

a "physical"

> > >> >Guru; Maharshi's words act like Guru themselves and when the

time is

> > >> >ripe, Maharshi will appear and you will "know" that he has

appeared

> > >> >for you...

> > >> >

> > >> >all the above are purely this b/m/i's assimilation and may or

may not

> > >> >be acceptable to others' view points; so

review/comments/criticisms

> > >> >welcome; the idea is to openly share and not pose as an

expert which

> > >> >this b/m/i knows for sure it is not... :-)

> > >> >

> > >> >love....

> > >> >

> > >> >RamanaMaharshi, Yamini Gourishankar

> > >> ><yaminigs> wrote:

> > >>> > > Hi Jacqueline and Joseph,

> > >>> > >

> > >>> > > I am copying my brother Vidyashankar here. I will

> > >>> > > update him when I talk to him next time. But feel

> > >>> > > free to connect with him and find out more about

> > >>> > > Ramanasramam.

> > >> >

> > >

_______________

> > > Chat online in real time with MSN Messenger

http://messenger.msn.co.uk

> > >

> > > Post message: RamanaMaharshi

> > > Subscribe: RamanaMaharshi-

> > > Un: RamanaMaharshi-

> > > List owner: RamanaMaharshi-owner

> > >

> > > Shortcut URL to this page:

> > > /community/RamanaMaharshi

> > >

> > > Terms of

Service

> > > <> .

> >

>

> _______________

> Stay in touch with MSN Messenger http://messenger.msn.co.uk

February 2, 2003

Dear All: To all those who are suffering and to those who

think 'they' are the ones who are suffering, this poem (reproduced

from a publication called Mananam of Chinmaya Misson West) might help

to ponder:

*********

Rabbia, sick upon her bed,

By two saints was visited -

Holy Malik, Hassan wise,

Men of mark in Moslem eyes.

Hassan said, "Whose prayer is pure

Will God's chastisements endure."

Malik from a deeper sense

Uttered his experience:

"He who loves his Master's choice

Will in chastisement rejoice."

Rabbia saw some selfish will

In their maxims lingering still,

And replied, "O men of grace,

He who sees his Master's face

Will not in his prayers recall

That he is chastised at all."

Persian Poem

*********

for the writer, it took some time to understand but when re-read, the

key words : 'endure' , 'rejoice' and 'not recall' stood out as the

relative milestones in the quest to enternal bliss....

RamanaMaharshi, "Richard Clarke

<r_clarke@i...>" <r_clarke@i...> wrote:

> Dear Chris,

>

> What a wonderful insight, that the issue is not the thoughts, but

> rather your attachment to them. You are on the right path.

>

> We are not two,

> Richard

>

> RamanaMaharshi, "vic w" <shivaguy108@h...>

> wrote:

> >

> > Dear Murthy, Chris and everyone else,

> >

> > Thanks for taking the time to consider my post and to comment

upon

> it.

February 2, 2003