Gita Satsangh; Chapter 8 Verses 23 to 28

[Guest guest]

Namaste:

 

Let me provide you with a quick summary of the essence of the message

contained in those verses. ProfVK will provide an elaborate

commentary on the basis of his scholarly understanding. As I

indicated before, Satsangh will only be fruitful with active

participation from the members. ProfVK is looking forward to hear

from you all.

 

Warmest regards,

 

Ram Chandran

 

 

 

A quick summary:

 

In these verses, Lord Krishna describes the differences between the

Karmis (performers of Shastraic Karmas or rituals) and the Upasakas

(meditators on Paramatman). Karmis after death go to various lokas

such as the Chandraloka (world of the Moon) after experiencing the

fruit of their righteous deeds and after some stipulated time period,

once again return to Samsara. Only the Upasakas go through Shukla

Marga (Path of Brightness or the Vision of Light) obtain the Krama

Mukti and merge into Paramaatman. Thus there is a great difference or

gap between Karma and Upasana or meditation, on Paramatman.

Vedadhyayana (study of Vedas or the scriptures), Yagna (sacrifice),

Dana (charity), Tapas (austerity), whichever; Karma among these even

if done properly, (by that) one cannot obtain the fruit that is

yielded by meditation on Paramaaman at the time of death. Lord

Krishna implicitly suggests Arjuna to become a Yogi who performs this

kind of Upasana (meditation or contemplation).

[Guest guest]

Namaste:

 

These verses can be taken literally or symbolically. All

traditionalists have taken them literally.

What is there during the day that is absent at night.? The Sun,

that is. Light. Thus these verses may mean that if you have

lived an enlightened life in full consciousness, in clarity, in

doubtlessness, then you go to brahman, you are liberated, free.

But if the life characteristic has been darkness, ignorance,

full of doubts, regrets and remorses, you have to come back to

this transmigratory cycle of this world-life. These are the

bright and the dark paths and the Yogin who knows them is not

misled into any error.

 

In this context Aurobindo, adds the following footnote:

 

“Yogic experience shows in fact that there is a real

psycho-physical truth, not indeed absolute in its application,

behind this idea, viz., that in the inner struggle between the

powers of the Light and the powers of the Darkness, the former

tend to have a natural prevalence in the bright periods of the

day or the year, the latter in the dark periods, and the balance

may last until the fundamental victory is won”.

 

Whatever psycho-physical fact or else symbolism there may be

behind this notion of bright and dark paths, continues Aurobindo

in his main essay on the subject, “it comes down from the age of

the mystics who saw in every physical thing an effective symbol

of the psychological and who traced everywhere an interaction

and a sort of identity of the outward with the inward, light and

knowledge, the fiery principle and the spiritual energy, -- we

need observe only the turn by which the Gita closes the passage:

‘Therefore at all times be in Yoga’”

 

It is significant that here as well as in VIII-7 (and only at

these two places), the Lord uses: ‘tasmAt sarveShu kAleShu’,

meaning, ‘Therefore at all times’. Thus we may conclude that

verses 7 and 27 are the bottom lines of this chapter, and, in an

extended sense, of the Gita also. ‘Remember Me and keep

fighting; Be in Yoga; At all times’.

 

praNAms to all advaitins

profvk

 

 

 

=====

Prof. V. Krishnamurthy

My website on Science and Spirituality is http://www.geocities.com/profvk/

You can access my book on Gems from the Ocean of Hindu Thought Vision and

Practice, and my father R. Visvanatha Sastri's manuscripts from the site.

 

 

 

Finance - Get real-time stock quotes

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[Guest guest]

Namaste.

 

Here are some more references on the topic. Extracted from 'Atma

Darshani' by Smt.K.Suryakantham (in Telugu).

 

Brahma Sutras 14.2.18, 14.2.20, 14.2.21, Gita 8.26, Katha Upanishad

2.2.7.

 

Regards,

Raghava

[Guest guest]

Raghavji,

 

I am not able to locate the references to the Brahmasutras, you

have given. What is 14? What is 2? What is 18?

Kindly give more specific references. Thanks.

 

praNAms to all advaitins

profvk

 

=====

Prof. V. Krishnamurthy

My website on Science and Spirituality is http://www.geocities.com/profvk/

You can access my book on Gems from the Ocean of Hindu Thought Vision and

Practice, and my father R. Visvanatha Sastri's manuscripts from the site.

 

 

 

Finance - Get real-time stock quotes

http://finance.

[Guest guest]

advaitin, "V. Krishnamurthy" <profvk> wrote:

> Kindly give more specific references. Thanks.

 

Namaste,

 

As this may be the only on-line bhashya on Brahmasutras, it

may be recommended as a source for locating references (different

printed editions seem to have varying numbering systems!)

 

http://www.swami-krishnananda.org/bs_4/bs_4-2-10.html

 

The actual reference seems to be : Adhyaya 4; Pada 2; Sutras 18-21.

(The adhikarana nos. are usually omitted!)

 

Regards,

 

Sunder

[Guest guest]

>

> Adi Shankara's commentary, translated by Swami Gambhirananda, at

URL:

>

advaitinGita/Shankara1/gmbCH6.htm

>

>

> Swami Chinmayananda's commentary at URL:

> advaitinGita/Chinmaya/COMM6.HTM

 

Namaste

 

Above links are incorrect - they point to the sixth chapter. The

links for 8th chapter should be:

advaitinGita/Shankara1/gmbCH8.htm

 

advaitinGita/Chinmaya/COMM8.HTM

 

regards

Sundar Rajan

[Guest guest]

Namaste:

Raghav Kaluri wrote:

Here are some more references on the topic. Extracted from 'Atma

Darshani' by Smt.K.Suryakantham (in Telugu).

Brahma Sutras 14.2.18, 14.2.20, 14.2.21, Gita 8.26, Katha

Upanishad 2.2.7.

 

And Sunderji gave me the corrections to these references as

Brahma sutra adhyaya 4 pada 2, sutras 18 to 21. These indeed

have direct relevance to the slokas of the gita under

discussion.These sutras and a gist of Sankara’s commentary on

them are given below:

 

Sutra 18: rashmyanusArI

 

One who knows brahman leaves the body through the 101st nADI

which goes direct to the brahmarandhra centre. When life passes

through any of the the other 100 nADIs they take the jIva only

to other lower lokas. But he whose life passes through the

brahmarandhra nADI reaches Immortality. This much is the content

of the sutras immediately prior to the 18th. In the 18th the

sutra declares that such a one follows the path of the rays of

the Sun and reaches the region of the Sun.

In the commentary on this sutra Sankara answers the question

whether this means there is a difference between dying in

daytime and dying in night time. He establishes that there is no

such difference. He quotes again Chandogya Upanishad 8-6-6 ‘tayA

UrdhvamAyan amR^itatvam eti’ meaning, ‘Rising up through that

nADI, he goes upward to Immortality’.

 

Sutra 19: nishineti cet na sambandhasya yAvat deha-bhAvitvAt

darshayati

 

The argument that one who dies by night has no connection with

the rays of the Sun does not carry weight. The connection with

the rays of the Sun is there as long as there is the body. In

Ch.U. 8-6-2 it says: ‘Those rays emanate from this Sun.

Impacting on these nADIs, they expressly manifest. They also

certainly link with the Sun’. That the Sun is indirectly

impacting even in the night is well-known.

 

Sutra 20. atasca ayane’pi dakshiNe

 

The doubt here is whether one who dies in dakshiNAyana (period

of Sun’s southern path) obtains the fruit of his sAdhanA. The

doubter raises the issue of the northern path versus southern

path and the story of Bhishma preferring to wait until the Sun

turned towards its northern path. But the reality is,

(according to Sankara) Bhishma had the option to cast off his

body whenever he liked and he just preferred to exercise that

option and also make his father's boon to him come true.

Sankara’s conclusion is therefore that whether one dies in the

‘northern half’ of the year or the ‘southern half’, he certainly

obtains what is due to him by his sAdhanA. The main reason

advocated by him for this conclusion is 'the unreasonableness

of making the result of knowledge depend on the accident of

death happening at a particular time'

'prAshastya-prasiddhiH avidvad-viShayA' - this is Sankara's

verdict. That is, the theory that the northern path of the Sun

is the best for dying, is aimed at the non-knower of brahman.

 

Sutra 21: yoginaH pratica smaryate smArte ca ete

 

This is a reply to those who quote the gita slokas – which we

are discussing now - . Sankara comments on this sutra and says

that all these are mentioned in the context of practising yogis.

These yoga-sAnkhyas (this word is used by Sankara) are mentioned

in the smr^iti and not in the Sruti.

By the way, a knowledgeable editor of Brahma sutras – one

Kadalangudi Natesa Sastrigal, who wrote in Tamil – writes here :

‘the yoga that is mentioned here is any act that is concordant

with a worshipful bhakti and the sAnkhya mentioned here is any

experience that goes with the contemplation of ‘I am not the

doer-enjoyer’’ .

 

praNAms to all advaitins

profvk

 

 

=====

Prof. V. Krishnamurthy

My website on Science and Spirituality is http://www.geocities.com/profvk/

You can access my book on Gems from the Ocean of Hindu Thought Vision and

Practice, and my father R. Visvanatha Sastri's manuscripts from the site.

 

 

 

Finance - Get real-time stock quotes

http://finance.

[Guest guest]

Namaste:

 

Swami Krishnananda's Gita commentary in the book, "THE UNIVERSAL

SCOPE OF THE BHAGAVADGITA" contains the enclosed paragraphs at the

end of chapter 8. These paragraphs contain significant messages

pertain to the ongoing Gita Satsangh discussions.

 

Warmest regards,

 

Ram Chandran

 

Swami Krishnanada's Extended Commentary:

========================================

The practice of Yoga is enjoined upon every seeker throughout his

life, for the purpose of entertaining this supreme completeness,

which is the cumulative outcome of the whole of thought, feeling and

will, a veritable cosmic thought which one has to enshrine in one's

heart as the final goal. Here, again, we have a little philosophy

behind the entertaining of thoughts and feelings in our lives, how

they have a spacial significance and decide our future because of

their relationship with the total pattern of creation. What happens

to us after we die? Where do we go? To some extent, this question has

been answered by what we have said already. Whatever we want, that we

shall get; and where we wish to go, there we will be taken; and what

we have done here, that will be repaid to us. Very terrible law, and

yet deeply consoling. It is impartial like justice, and the law of

gravitation, or the working of the universe. There are no friends and

no foes for this law. It becomes, therefore, incumbent on every

seeker of Truth to be honestly aspiring for God, to live the life of

a search for the Spirit, rather than a seeking for material

possessions and the pleasure of the senses.

 

The Karma that we perform in life has to be set in tune with the

great Will of God, a reference to which has already been made

earlier. If we regard our actions as our own personal effort directed

for an ulterior motive or a little material benefit, that force, that

particular action, will recoil upon us as the Karmaphala or the fruit

of action. But, what for is the philosophy of the Bhagavadgita if not

to enlighten us on the fact that all action is divine action with a

universal motivation. If we can plant ourselves this knowledge of the

universality of all activities that take place in the world, we

become instruments in the hands of the Universal Power, and we are no

more agents of action but vehicles of action. Then, it is unavoidable

on our part to entertain the thought and feeling of God as the

supreme Actor or the Agent of everything. A life that is propelled by

the principle of Karma-Yoga cannot avoid the enshrining of God-

Thought throughout its tenure. If we forget the presence of the

mighty Absolute even for a moment, action becomes our action, and it

rebounds upon us, and we shall be responsible, then, for its

consequences. We are, therefore, to perpetually maintain the

consciousness of our inseparability from the Supreme Creator:

 

This is a mighty gospel before us of God's creation, of birth and

death, and the fate of the soul after the passing from this body.

Some more explanation is offered in this very Chapter on the peculiar

courses followed by the soul after death, a subject which is dealt

with in detail in the Upanishads but very briefly touched upon in the

Bhagavadgita. There are various avenues of exit from this world. And

the way in which we shall leave this plane, the path that we shall

trek, will depend upon the thoughts that we entertained, once again

to repeat the same point. The extent of the unselfishness that

motivated our life here will decide also the extent of our success in

approximating God-realization.

 

The Gita mentions two important paths; known as the Northern and the

Southern, or the path of Light and the path of darkness, as they are

usually called. The path of Light is supposed to be that particular

way of the ascent of the soul by which it rises from one stage of

perception to another, from one level to a next level. These are all,

mystical steps inexplicable by ordinary language, and unintelligible

to the mind.

 

Commentators have gone into great details in the explanation of these

paths, but they are all inadequate in the end. No one can know what

these mysteries are. But suffice it to say that the path of Light

implies a gradually ascending series of movements of the

consciousness of the soul in the direction of larger and larger

dimensions of experience, until it reaches the consummate position,

viz., merger in God, entry into the being of the Absolute. It is

available only to those who have practiced meditation, throughout,

their lives, on God, in an unselfish manner, expecting nothing from

God, and seeking only union with God. But the path of darkness is the

path of return. Whatever good we do in this world is repaid in its

own coin and our good deeds bear fruit in the after life. And just as

our bank-balance can get exhausted one day if we go on drawing checks

continuously, our good deeds can exhaust themselves by experience.

And when the momentum of our good deeds is spent out by experience in

our future lives, we are supposed to revert to the condition from

where we started. Hence, actions should not be per formed with any

personal motivation. Even when we per form a charitable deed, it

should not be done as if it is a prerogative of our effort. The great

point made out in the statement, `let not the left hand know what the

right hand does,' has a philosophical meaning behind it, apart from

its being an injunction on good motivation. Our good deeds are not

supposed to be `our' deeds, they do not belong to `us', for no action

can belong to us, really. But if we insist, `I have done a good deed,

I have performed, a charitable act, I have shown mercy', then we

shall reap the fruit of that mercy and good deed, no doubt. When the

force of that particular action is over, we are reborn, to continue

our old work again. Otherwise, when we do our deeds and works in this

world as a vehicle through the Will of God, neither good nor bad will

cling to our personality. The good and the bad are words which we use

to signify the quality of an action, and when the action is not ours,

the quality also does not belong to us, it goes to Him who has done

it. All this is difficult for us to contemplate, for we are not made

in this way. We cannot think in an impersonal manner. We cannot

imagine, even for a moment, that we are not the doers of deeds. We

have to be very humble on the spiritual path and cannot imagine that

we are on the topmost pedestal. Who can believe, even for a second,

that one is not the doer of action? We may not say this in words, but

do not we feel in our hearts that we are doers? Well, this is a very

serious matter, indeed. But, if God has taken possession of us, and

if we know that these two paths, the Northern and the Southern, or

whatever they are, the only the empirical movements of the

consciousness lodged in the body. Then no such passage would be

necessary for the soul that is united with God. To such a soul that

we are to be, liberation is assured, and God becomes the All-in-All,

the Friend, the Supporter and the Benefactor in every way.

 

God comes nearer and nearer to us as we proceed through the Chapters

of the Gita. In the very early Chapters, no mention was made,

practically, of God. It was all an emphasis on self discipline and

effort for self integration; then we were introduced into the

cosmology and the creative forces that were operating behind things.

And then the question was raised as to what happens to one after one

leaves the body, and our relationship with God, the Creator, was

discussed. The Eighth Chapter somewhat: stands midway between the

earlier chapters and the later ones, giving us a taste of something

of the earlier phases and something of the future ones, also. From

the Ninth Chapter onwards, the religious consciousness gets unfolded,

WHEREBY TO LIVE LIFE WOULD BE TO LIVE RELIGION, AND TO EXIST IN THE

WORLD WOULD MEAN TO LIVE FOR GOD.

[Guest guest]

advaitin, "V. Krishnamurthy" <profvk> wrote:

> Namaste:

> Raghav Kaluri wrote:

> Here are some more references on the topic. Extracted from 'Atma

> Darshani' by Smt.K.Suryakantham (in Telugu).

> Brahma Sutras 14.2.18, 14.2.20, 14.2.21, Gita 8.26, Katha

> Upanishad 2.2.7.

>

> And Sunderji gave me the corrections to these references as

> Brahma sutra adhyaya 4 pada 2, sutras 18 to 21. These indeed

> have direct relevance to the slokas of the gita under

> discussion.These sutras and a gist of Sankara's commentary on

> them are given below:

>

Namaste.

 

Thanks to Sunder-ji and Shree profvk-ji for the corrections and

explanations.

 

Regards,

Raghava

[Guest guest]

advaitin, "Ram Chandran" <rchandran@c...> wrote:

>

> Swami Krishnananda's Gita commentary in the book, "THE UNIVERSAL

> SCOPE OF THE BHAGAVADGITA" contains the enclosed paragraphs at the

> end of chapter 8.

 

Namaste,

 

It may also be well to remember Shankara's statement from

Upadeshasahsri:

 

( http://sanskrit.gde.to/doc_z_misc_shankara/US_itran_new.itx )

 

##US-P15.049cd ## bandhamokShAdayo bhAvAstadvadAtmani kalpitAH ||

 

"The ideas such as bondage, liberation, etc. are likewise

superimposed on the Self". ('likewise refers to 'agency and

knowingness' stated in the previous 3 lines.)

 

[Also a reminder of ProfVK's quotation from Sri Ramana: "I tell you

there is no snake, but you want to discuss what kind of snake it is!"]

 

 

Regards,

 

Sunder

[Guest guest]

Sri gurubhyo namaH

 

Here is a gist of my interpretation and loose translation of Sri

Sachchidanandendra Saraswathi Swamiji's commentary on the above

verses:

 

[i hope I will be able to do justice to Swamiji's writings. I am

reminded of Sunderji's earlier comment to the effect – it is only the

tapas or austerity/integrity of speech of a person that protects

their translation. Very true.]

 

The essence of the above verses is to indicate that the destination

of the soul is far superior for upaasakas, and bhaktas than those who

follow the path of karma. The vedas declare a superior abode for the

staunch performers of yagnas and rituals, but upaasakas reach a even

superior abode – brahman himself, from which there is no return. The

path of the soul described here is in accordance with shaastras and

purANas, this has to be accepted with devotion. GaruDa purANa

describes the paths of the soul in great details. Description here of

Agni, day, Jyothi, shuklapaksha, and uttarAyaNa vs. smoke, rAtri,

krishNapaksha and dakshiNayaNa is symbolic, not necessarily to be

taken literally. Swamiji gives the example of a guard and a prisoner,

both entering the jail at the same time. Could their soul and mental

orientations ever be the same? – One enters cheerfully to fulfill his

responsibility and the other, fearful and dejected. Similarly, though

the passing away of a layman and an upAsaka may appear the same

externally (can be taken as same time), each takes his own path

depending on his internal orientation. One is the lighted path,

illumined by jnAna, and the other is the dark path.

Even an ordinary traveler gets acquainted with his destination, and

the path to get there. He learns of the landmarks, the milestones on

the way and familiarizes himself with them – so should that not be

the case for this great journey (mahA prasthAna)? Swamiji says that

the other reason for these verses is for upAsakas to be aware of

their path to reach the Lord in addition to meditation on Him, just

like the traveler above.

The key is, whatever we have aspired for our entire life, that we

will get, and where we wish to go, there we will be taken; and what

we have done here, we will get that back in kind. The gist of the

chapter – also called dhAraNa yoga – those who are immersed in

paramAtma, or fix their mind steadfastly in Him when alive, reach Him

when they pass from this world.

 

Namaste,

Savithri

[Guest guest]

Namaste.

 

I know Indian astrology. I cast the chart of the heavens for the

exact time Bhagwan Ramana Maharshi left this mortal plane, i.e. for

8.47 p.m. IST on 14th April 1950 (Tuesday) (Tiruvannamalai). The

findings are as follows:

 

1. The Sun (at 0 degree 57 minutes in Nirayana Mesha) had just begun

his northern journey (uttarayana) less than 24 hours before the

event. Although Sun is exalted in Nirayana Mesha, the day being

equinoxial (nirayana), it is a very borderline uttarayana case. By

declination, the Sun was still very much to the south of the place of

event.

 

2. Moon was waning just behind the Sun in Nirayana Meena (1 degree

11 minutes). So, it was the extreme dark half (krishna thrayodashi –

the thirteenth lunar day of the dark half)

 

3. The time was night (after sunset).

 

The requirements of 8.24 are not thus fulfilled.

 

I selected Bhagwan's case because there is a recorded time of event

and he is the most renowned mahayogi of recent times who is

acceptable to both the traditionalists as well as the moderners.

 

If we apply the BG verses literally, we will have to assume that

Bhagwan has returned to us. That is a very consoling thought

indeed. But, for the sake of the verses, we would like the time of

the event to be farther into uttarayana, while the Moon was waxing

and during daytime.

 

We see that even Sankara is very studied and cautious in the

interpretation of these verses. A literal interpretation that will

require yogis to constantly carry and consult almanacs in order to

make right departure bookings, therefore, appears out of question.

 

Then, what do the words signify? It is clearly a case of "fire,

light, day-time, bright half of the Moon, Sun's northern course"

vs. "smoke (darkness), night, Moon's waning and Sun's southern

course". In a nutshell, it is light vs. darkness. Verse 8.24

should, therefore, signify full and total enlightenment and 8.25 just

the opposite.

 

Otherwise, we would commit the crime of making a universal philosophy

geocentric – nay northern-hemisphere-centric. Logic demands that it

should be applicable anywhere in this universe and in anti-universe

if one exists as speculated.

 

Most of our old astrological works attach strength to the Sun when it

is in the northern course because they were penned by civilizations

that flourished in the northern hemisphere. Had Varahamihira been

born in Australia, the southern Sun would have received more

attention. That a southern Sun should be considered strong in

birth-charts of southern latitudes was accepted (by the Indians) only

recently.

 

Why the Sun at all? The Sun has ruled Indian thought and destiny for

a very very long time. We had a Surya Vamsha. Ramanayana has the

Aditya Hridayam extolling the Sun to the level of the Ultimate. We

have the Gayatri Mantra on Sun God – saviturvarenyam. Sun is

jnAnavijnAna mokshada (the bestower of knowledge and liberation).

So, Sun is not an ordinary star any more. He is jagatkartA – the

creator of the universe.

 

The same applies to the northern direction. Our immortal Dhruva

became the northern pole star – not southern. North indicates

immortality. Our Devi is uttarAmnAyamanita. Immortal

Dakshinamoorthy sits in the north and faces his mortal disciples

(immortality-seekers) in the south! The concept of immortality in

Indian thought is thus intricately linked to the north.

 

This is the case of agni too which belongs to the same group as Sun

and north. The Vedas and rituals can't be without agni. We show agni

to the lord when we chant daily: "na tatra sUryo bhAti....".

Knowledge is called the agni that burns ignorance and agni is the

principle of the Sun, the jnAnavijnAnamokshada.

 

Then verse 8.24 should mean a yogi in whose awareness the Sun of

Truth shines constantly without any blemish. Attaining such a state

is the very purpose of Gayatri mantra. Such a yogi verily becomes

that Awareness, whereas if a little of the opposite remains,

repetition results. Death is the essence of such repetition where

there is a sense of departing. South signifies death – the opposite

of immortality. It is said that one who is dead goes to the south to

the abode of the God of Death (Yama or Kala) . That is why we are

advised by our elders not to sleep keeping our head to the south.

That is why dead bodies are laid on the funeral pyre with their heads

to the south.

 

Repetition means ordinary death – a transmigration from one plane of

existence to another plane. Darkness signifies death. A yogi does

not die. He becomes That. That is why we pray "urvArukamiva mrityor

moksIya" in Mahamrithyunjaya Mantra. We are seeking liberation from

darkness, victory (jaya) over Dakshina that is mrityu or kAla

(death). Contrasted with death, liberation is just "becoming" THAT,

spontaneous like the ripe urvAruka fruit getting automatically

detached from its parent plant. An enlightened becomes light, the

Sun, Total Awareness. Chapter 8 exhorts us to be just THAT!

 

This is how I would like to understand 8.23 to 8.28.

 

Pranams to all advaitins.

 

Madathil Nair

[Guest guest]

Message #14731

 

advaitin, "savithri_devaraj" <savithri_devaraj>

wrote:

> The essence of the above verses is to indicate that the destination

> of the soul is far superior for upaasakas, and bhaktas than those

who

> follow the path of karma.

 

 

Namaste,

 

A very important footnote to Shankara Bhashya translation by A.

Mahadeva Shastry, verse 8:24 , is that he has covered this topic in

Brahma Sutra Bhashya Adhyaya 4, Padas 3 & 4 (extending the concluding

Sutra in Adhyaya 4, Pada 2, Sutra 21).

 

[ http://www.swami-krishnananda.org/bs_4/bs_4-3-insy.html ]

 

Regards,

 

Sunder

[Guest guest]

>From "Madathil Rajendran Nair" <madathilnair@>:

> Then, what do the words signify? It is clearly a case of "fire,

> light, day-time, bright half of the Moon, Sun's northern course" vs.

> "smoke (darkness), night, Moon's waning and Sun's southern course".

> In a nutshell, it is light vs. darkness. Verse 8.24 should,

> therefore, signify full and total enlightenment and 8.25 just the

> opposite.

 

 

This is what is meant in Shankara's commentary 26.1 right?

 

There is a another point. It is said that a person who has transcended the

Earthly chain

of birth and death may choose to return to Earth VOLUNTARILY to help mankind.

Where does that fit in?

 

--

Warmest regards,

Ruben V. M.

rubenn

_____________

The end of wisdom is freedom.

The end of culture is perfection.

The end of knowledge is love.

The end of education is character. -Sathya Sai Baba.

[Guest guest]

Ruben writes:

 

There is a another point. It is said that a person who has

transcended the Earthly chain

of birth and death may choose to return to Earth VOLUNTARILY to

help mankind.

-----------------------------

 

Is there an authority for this statement ?

 

praNAms to all advaitins

Yours, profvk

 

 

=====

Prof. V. Krishnamurthy

My website on Science and Spirituality is http://www.geocities.com/profvk/

You can access my book on Gems from the Ocean of Hindu Thought Vision and

Practice, and my father R. Visvanatha Sastri's manuscripts from the site.

 

 

 

New DSL Internet Access from SBC &

http://sbc.

[Guest guest]

praNAm Prof. prabhuji,

Hare Krishna

 

I think we could take the below verses 7 & 8 in Chapter - 4 as reference

:

 

yadA yadAhi dharmasya glanirbhavati bhArata!

abyutaanam adharmasya tadAtmAnam srujAmyaham!!

 

paritraNAya sAdhunam vinashaayacha dushkrutam!

dharma samstaapanaarthaya sambhavAmi yuge yuge!!

 

 

Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

bhaskar

[Guest guest]

Namaste,

 

Adding 4:6 also would be helpful:

 

ajo.api sannavyayaatmaa bhuutaanaamiishvaro.api san.h .

prakR^iti.n svaamadhishhThaaya saMbhavaamyaatmamaayayaa .. 4\.6 ..

 

Regards,

 

Sunder

 

 

 

advaitin, bhaskar.yr@i... wrote: (modified to Itrans

encoding)-

>

yadaa yadaa hi dharmasya glaanirbhavati bhaarata .

abhyutthaanamadharmasya tadaatmaanaM sR^ijaamyaham.h .. 4\.7..

 

paritraaNaaya saadhuunaa.n vinaashaaya cha dushhkR^itaam.h .

dharmasa.nsthaapanaarthaaya saMbhavaami yuge yuge .. 4\.8..

[Guest guest]

Namaste.

 

Rubenji, your question screams for an answer notwithstanding the

authorities quoted by Bhaskerji and Sunderji. Sadly, my personal

feeling is that the answer may not be readily available in the

scriptures. We will have to invent one with the help of the

scriptures.

 

To begin with, let us ask Andrew Cohen style: "What is

Enlightenment?". It is a non-question for the simple reason that

Enlightenment encompasses everything under the Sun, above the Sun and

the Sun and does not permit a questioner or question outside It

demanding an explanation! Only a non-enlightened truly non-existing

entity can ask that non-question and invariably reach unenlightened

non-existing non-answers. That is the sad state of affairs we are in.

>From this premise, let us try to understand the Bhagwat Geetha.

There are the two verses. One talks about the enlightened ones

who "go" without return-tickets. The other refers to "repeaters".

 

For the first group, duality has already ended. They have no more any

vision of Enlightenment or the unenlightened suffering humanity

existing outside them. They are jnAni. I am using the singular in

order to be consistent with Shri Atmachaitanyaji's right observation

on this List that there cannot be more than one JnAni.

 

The "repeaters" are the innumerable non-jnAnis from the most imbecile

to the ones at the apex of spiritual evolution, the latter almost

knocking at the door of Enlightenment. This is an objectified vision

or scene for us and beyond the objectified door of Enlightenment we

see our beloved Bhagwan Ramana Maharshi and other great sages (again

objectified) seated, smiling at us, pouring out spiritual guidance.

Thus, it is for the "repeaters" only that the Bhagwat Geetha exists

in its plurality of 18 chapters and so many verses singing about the

One Unity Beyond Words! So do the Upanishads, other spiritual tomes

and sages too!

 

These non-jnAnis are in a state of constant flux and naturally,

therefore, create a lot of hullabaloo. The intelligent among them

spend a lot of their time conjecturing visions of Enlightenment as

something like a "state" to which one slides in after completing a

specific course of sAdhana like ice melting into water and salt

dissolving to form a solution. Sadly, however much they try,

Enlightenment and the Enlightened escape their powers of expression

because invariably in all their attempts they end up describing

something in the manner of an object and thereby miss the total

point. In their heart of hearts most of them, however, do know that

they have missed the point!

 

I am reminded of a declaration made by Swami Vivekananda. I don't

have his exact words. I have read that he was willing to take even a

thousand births as long as one human being remained bound in misery

on the surface of this earth. In other words, he was prepared to be

a "repeater" any number of times! Who said that? Swamiji? Being an

Enlightened One, he couldn't have said that! But, there is the

recorded evidence like we see in the Bhagwad Geetha and as quoted by

Bhaskerji "SambhavAmi yuge yuge"! What does it all amount to?

 

Yes, Sir. In this non-jnAnis' vyavahAra, such statements are

explainable and acceptable. Non-jnAnis are fortunately endowed with

something called sankalpa sakti. It is this power of sankalpa that

makes the verses quoted by Bhaskerji and Sunderji and the statement

of Swami Vivekananda operable. In a nutshell, we the non-jnAnis are

their authors as well as their operators and due to our ajnAna

(avidya) we assume that the "Enlightened from the Land of

Enlightenment" take mortal bodies and descend to save the suffering

humanity. Only non-JnAnis discern suffering. It is, therefore, they

who need avatArAs – a Krishna, Rama, Christ or Prophet. With

Enlightenment, there is no suffering, suffering non-jnAnis, or

incarnations. There, there is no there, here, to, from, now, when or

then, one or more than one, question asked or question answered.

Leave It alone – then you are It!

 

Warmest regards and pranams to all advaitins.

 

Madahtil Nair

______________________

 

 

advaitin, "Ruben" <rubenn@p...> wrote:

> There is a another point. It is said that a person who has

transcended the Earthly chain

> of birth and death may choose to return to Earth VOLUNTARILY to

help mankind.

> Where does that fit in?

[Guest guest]

advaitin, "Madathil Rajendran Nair" <madathilnair>

wrote:

>

> I am reminded of a declaration made by Swami Vivekananda. I don't

> have his exact words. I have read that he was willing to take even

a

> thousand births as long as one human being remained bound in misery

> on the surface of this earth. In other words, he was prepared to

be

> a "repeater" any number of times!

 

Namaste,

 

http://www.vivekananda.btinternet.co.uk/veda.htm

 

Addressing Girish Babu now, Swami Vivekananda said, "Do you know,

Girish Babu, it occurs to me that even if a thousand births have to

be taken in order to relieve the sorrows of the world, surely I will

take them. If by my doing that, even a single soul may have a little

bit of his grief relieved, why, I will do it. What avails it at all

to have only one's own liberation? Everyone should be taken along

with oneself on that way. Can you say why a feeling like this comes

up foremost in my mind?

 

67. CW, Vol.6: Conversation, pp.499-503.

----

Have faith in yourself. You people were once Vedic rishis. Only, you

have come in a different form, that is all. I see it clear as

daylight that you all have infinite power within you. Rouse that up;

arise, arise - apply yourselves heart and soul, gird up your loins.

What will you do with wealth and fame, which are so transitory? Do

you know what I think? I don't care for mukti [liberation] and all

that. My mission is to arouse within you all such ideas; I am ready

to undergo a hundred thousand rebirths to train up a single man. (41)

 

41. CW, Vol.7: Conversation with Sharat Chandra Chakravarty, Belur,

1899, p.176.

 

 

Regards.

 

Sunder

 

p.s. Buddha spoke similarly.

[Guest guest]

advaitin, "Madathil Rajendran Nair" wrote:

> In a nutshell, we the non-jnAnis are

> their authors as well as their operators and due to our ajnAna

> (avidya) we assume that the "Enlightened from the Land of

> Enlightenment" take mortal bodies and descend to save the suffering

> humanity. Only non-JnAnis discern suffering. It is, therefore, they

> who need avatArAs – a Krishna, Rama, Christ or Prophet. With

> Enlightenment, there is no suffering, suffering non-jnAnis, or

> incarnations. There, there is no there, here, to, from, now, when

 

This is wonderful indeed.

 

Just a curious experiment - within one's dream when adharma dominates

then to restore dharma ... what happens ?

Regards,

Raghava

[Guest guest]

Namaste Raghavaji:

 

When the dreamer realizes that "adharma dominates during the dream"

the restoration process starts instantenously. Sins and adharmas are

our own realizations of crossing the self-created boundaries. All

creations including 'sins' and 'adharmas' are never permanant and

this is a never ending cycles of creattions and demolitions. The

entire process of creations and demolitions fall within the

confinement of mAyA or Brahma Leela!

 

regards,

 

Ram Chandran

 

advaitin, "raghavakaluri" <raghavakaluri> wrote:

> Just a curious experiment - within one's dream when adharma

dominates

> then to restore dharma ... what happens ?

> Regards,

> Raghava

[Guest guest]

advaitin, "Ram Chandran" <rchandran@c...> wrote:

The

> entire process of creations and demolitions fall within the

> confinement of mAyA or Brahma Leela!

 

Namaste,

 

"Were Christ born a thousand times in Bethlehem and not in you, you

would still be eternally lost."

 

Angelus Silesius [Johann Scheffler - 1624-1677]

 

 

Regards,

 

Sunder

[Guest guest]

Namaste Sunderji:

 

Your statement is quite valid with respect to thoughts also!

Interestingly wherever thoughts arise they still be eternally lost.

Our scriptures went one step further and stated - 'the only thought

on Him remain eternal and all other thoughts become eternally lost!'

 

All beings and non-beings of the nature are governed by the Eternal

Law of Naure or equivalantly the rule of the Lord. Nature (God) is

the doer and the rest are witnessing His doings (or not doings). The

Natural law is controlled by the well known feed-back mechanism which

keeps the Balance in the Nature. For example the number of snakes

and rats are likely to be always in balance. If the number of snakes

increase in greater number, then more snakes are likely to die of

starvation to keep the balance. Also if the number of rats rise in

greater number, it enables the snake population to rise due to the

abundance and consequently the balance is again restored.

Environmentalists rightly argue that we the human beings shouldn't

undo the things that happens and going to happen naturally! Instead

of being non-doers we want to be over-doers!

 

Coming back to dreamer situation, the dreamer is a non-doer and

he/she is true observer (witness) and not affected by the events of

the dream. Even after dreaming of eating a bag full of tasty snacks

and food, when the dreamer wakes up, he/she is hungry and stomach is

still empty!

 

regards,

 

Ram Chandran

 

advaitin, "sunderh" <sunderh> wrote:

> Namaste,

>

> "Were Christ born a thousand times in Bethlehem and not in you, you

> would still be eternally lost."

>

> Angelus Silesius [Johann Scheffler - 1624-1677]

[Guest guest]

Namaste Raghavaji,

 

I don't think I understood your question (experiment as you call it)

well. I believe you are asking if sankalpa sakti will operate when

adharma predominates in the dream world.

 

I have no scriptures to go by here. Let me look into my personal

experience.

 

Yes. I do have dreams in which I am tormented or unjust acts are

perpetrated on me. The following may happen then:

 

1. If the torment is unbearable, then of course, I wake up screaming

and realize that it was after all a dream.

 

2. Most of the time, my knowledge of advaita percolates to the dream

world. (People say this is a good sign of spiritual development!)

Then, I do muster courage and face the situation chanting the name of

my beloved Mother (the Devi - my ishtadevata) and eventually wake up.

 

3. A third scenario is that, like in the waking state, the dream me

and other dream subjects may plan and organize a revolt against the

dream tormentor. I think it is the dream sankalpa sakti that

operates the revolt here. In this case, the dream may as well go on

and a saviour may appear at the end and grant us a dream liberation.

Mind you this is not enlightenment. Just a dushtanigraha. The dream

then continues with other dream situations which may bring in more

tormentors and saviours.

 

No. 1 is dream death. No. 2 is dream enlightenment. No. 3 is dream

struggle.

 

Here both death and enlightenment (1 and 2)lead to the non-jnAni

waking state. Both entail "repetitions" (punarAvritti), i.e. the

dreamer can relapse into the dream state. That is why I used the

small "e" for enlightenment. However, there is a difference. No. 2

teaches a lesson towards final deliverance in the waking state. If

you have time and patience, Raghavaji, kindly read one of my very

early posts to this List - # 12119 of 25th Jan. '02 where I have

detailed a dream and how it helped my advaitic understanding. No. 1

perpetuates the avidya status quo. There is not an inch of progress

gained in this. In No. 3, dream sankalpa operates, dream

incarnations appear and dream deliverance (within the dream) takes

place. The dream continues. The dream struggle can perhaps equip the

dreamer for his struggle in waking hours.

 

Best regards and pranams to all advaitins.

 

Madathil Nair

_________________

 

advaitin, "raghavakaluri" <raghavakaluri> wrote:

> Just a curious experiment - within one's dream when adharma

dominates

> then to restore dharma ... what happens ?

[Guest guest]

advaitin, "Madathil Rajendran Nair" <madathilnair>

wrote:

> Here both death and enlightenment (1 and 2)lead to the non-jnAni

> waking state. Both entail "repetitions" (punarAvritti), i.e. the

> dreamer can relapse into the dream state. That is why I used the

> small "e" for enlightenment. However, there is a difference. No. 2

> teaches a lesson towards final deliverance in the waking state. If

> you have time and patience, Raghavaji, kindly read one of my very

> early posts to this List - # 12119 of 25th Jan. '02 where I have

> detailed a dream and how it helped my advaitic understanding. No. 1

> perpetuates the avidya status quo. There is not an inch of progress

> gained in this. In No. 3, dream sankalpa operates, dream

> incarnations appear and dream deliverance (within the dream) takes

> place. The dream continues. The dream struggle can perhaps equip the

> dreamer for his struggle in waking hours.

 

Namaste NairJi,

Thanks for the explanations. Yes, my question is answered along with

Shree RamchandranJi's reply together - especially #3. I read post #

12119 with delight and got a new understanding of Christ's smile.

Thanks.

 

Regards,

Raghava