Guest guest Report post Posted October 21, 1995 For the last few days we had some interesting discussions on the differences of Bhakti and Prapatti. I want to thank Sridharan and others to have pointed out to me that Prapatti is unconditional surrender resulting in the grace of God. Hera are a few questions stemming out of the idea of unconditional surrender. 1. Is unconditional surrender possible without divine grace? 2. For an aspirant, the unconditional surrender can at best be a mental resignation. How can this be advanced to true surrender of will? 3. Is bhakti possible without prapatti? And, is prapatti possible without bhakti? The question here is can bhakti and prapatti be truly separated? When we take the example of Arjuna, he is first a bhakta in the sakhya bhava and goes through a number of mental turmoils before coming to the stage where he says to Lord Krishna, "Now, I am a soul surrenderd unto you." Does not God create the favorable situation to surrender unto Him? Typically what we consider as "difficulties" when we lose a job, money, people we love, etc. can be understood as favorable situations created by God if we have faith in Him. It is these "difficulties" we try so hard to avoid, by having a fat bank balance, etc. A few other points of interest. I have seen the term used by a SriVaisnava religious scholar that gave how Bhakti contrasts prapatti and how bhakti's fruit is inferior to prapatti. This kind of contradistinctions, I think are dangerous. Those having this opinion can, without guilt, practice bhakti without ever thinking to surrender. Surely, they would be rewarded for all the pious deeds, but that is not the ultimate goal of a vaisnava. Acts of bhakti then become mechanical wihtout developin any love for the Godhead. The same scholar gives some interesting points. Alvaandar, according to Tirumalai-Andan's explanation interpreted Nammaazhvar Vidumin hymn in Tiruvaimozhi as teaching the prapatti. However, Sri Ramanuja explained this as bhakti for fear of exposing the doctrine of prapatti to people without preparing them in bhakti. So, tha acaryas taught in such a way that bhakti precedes prapatti. Prapatti without bhakti can be confusing and lead to active and passive retirement from life itself. Later, Sri Ramanuja explained prapatti in his work, "Saranagati Gadya." Murali Karamchedu's article, in which says the Lord has Daya element in Him, so why not make the best use of this by surrendering to Him. Taking some of these points into consideration, I like what Dileepan pointed out that bhakti and prapatti go hand-in-hand. -Eswar Josyula Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted October 21, 1995 On 21 Oct 95 07:52:40 EDT Eswar Josyula said: > [ .. snip .. ] > >3. Is bhakti possible without prapatti? And, is prapatti possible without >bhakti? The question here is can bhakti and prapatti be truly separated? Technically this is possible. Here is an example, perhaps from RTS. I have no direct knowledge of RTS, only through upanyaasams. A king was defeated and killed in a battle. The victor entered the kingdom and took it over. To save the child-prince from certain death the ministers coached the boy to go up to the new king and say to him in his language, "save me my king, I will for ever serve you." The new king is moved by this sweet young child say the words of surrender and makes him the king of conquered land. Two points tonote; (1) the child did not know what he was saying, the king himself realized that the child was put up to this task by the ministers, yet he saved him, and (2) if a mere mortal king can be so moved, our Lord who is an ocean of mercy will save you even if you did prapatti without bhakthi. So, prapatti has no prerequisites! -- Dileepan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted October 21, 1995 On Sat, 21 Oct 95 15:18:59 EDT I said: >> [ .. snip .. ] > So, prapatti has no prerequisites! > > I was a little hasty with this statement. One must have faith I think for prapatti. More knowledeable members may comment on this. There are five "angas" that describe how one who has performed total surrender must behave. Adaikkala paththu describes this. Perhaps later. -- Dileepan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted October 22, 1995 P. Dileepan wrote: * > So, prapatti has no prerequisites! * > * > * * I was a little hasty with this statement. * One must have faith I think for prapatti. You have hit on the central point of debate between the Thengalai philosophy of surrender and the Vadagalai. According to Pillai Lokacharya, prapatti as no prerequisites at all. Faith is not a prerequisite but something that just falls into place if true prapatti is done. Prapatti involves 'akincanyam' (a feeling of helplessness) and 'ananygatitvam' (having no other refuge). The two examples cited time and time again are Kaakaasura, the bird who tormented Sita and then performed prapatti, and Draupadi, who when tormented by Duhsasana, surrendered to Lord Krishna. Mani Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted October 23, 1995 Mani, I have serious doubts about your view : that akinchanyam and ananya gathitvam are main for tankalais. in fact they are the protogonists for the view that "prapattir vishvasaha" ie. prapatti is mainly trust ! in fact they use this view to retort the need for performance of prapatti as a karma - action. instead they state that prapatti is trust which is a mental attitude and knowledge. krishna ----- Begin Included Message ----- >From mani Sun Oct 22 14:49:22 1995 Sun, 22 Oct 1995 11:42:16 -0700 mani (Mani Varadarajan) prapatti, Parthasarati Dileepan <MFPD Re: Bhakti and Prapatti P. Dileepan wrote: * > So, prapatti has no prerequisites! * > * > * * I was a little hasty with this statement. * One must have faith I think for prapatti. You have hit on the central point of debate between the Thengalai philosophy of surrender and the Vadagalai. According to Pillai Lokacharya, prapatti as no prerequisites at all. Faith is not a prerequisite but something that just falls into place if true prapatti is done. Prapatti involves 'akincanyam' (a feeling of helplessness) and 'ananygatitvam' (having no other refuge). The two examples cited time and time again are Kaakaasura, the bird who tormented Sita and then performed prapatti, and Draupadi, who when tormented by Duhsasana, surrendered to Lord Krishna. Mani ----- End Included Message ----- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted October 23, 1995 Krishna Prasad wrote: * Mani, * * I have serious doubts about your view : that akinchanyam and ananya * gathitvam are main for tankalais. in fact they are the protogonists for * the view that "prapattir vishvasaha" ie. prapatti is mainly trust ! * in fact they use this view to retort the need for performance of prapatti * as a karma - action. instead they state that prapatti is trust which is * a mental attitude and knowledge. * * krishna I think my original note was unclear. As I understand it, for Pillai Lokacharya and Manavala Mamunigal, prapatti is a mental attitude, involving non-resistance to the overflowing grace of the Lord. You are correct about this. But there are *no* prerequisites, not even faith. One cannot even say that there are co-requisities, since prapatti stands by itself. My reference to Akincanyam and Ananyagatitvam was not to a unique belief of the Thengalai, but to a general attitude surrounding prapatti adhered to by both traditions. After looking at Sri Lokacharya's Sri Vachana Bhushana, I have found his comments on the nature of prapatti: palattukku AtmajnAnamum apratishetamumE vENDuvadu. Only knowledge of the (nature of the) self and non-denial (of His grace) are needful for the fruit. (SVB 60) So prapatti involves an understanding of the self as a "sesha" of the Lord and a non-denial of His grace. Knowledge of the self as sesha, as far as I know, means understanding ananyagatitvam and aakincanyam. Sri Lokacharya goes on to say that the Lord is thinking about us at all times; such is the nature of His grace. All that is needed is a change in our attitude, and the Lord's thought has fruition. When the individual self gives up the thought that it is able to protect itself through its own efforts (aakincanyam and ananyagatitvam), the Lord's grace opens like a floodgate upon it. He quotes the acharya Nanjiyar as saying, ``The refuge at the time of death is to give up the thought, `What is our refuge?' '' Mani Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted October 23, 1995 Note: mani, I do agree that akinchanya and ananyagatitva are needed and non-denial of grace will all be sufficient for a complete prapatti. if one states prapatti has 5 angas or subsidiary requisites, this rule is from ahirbudhnya samhita and is common for all srivaishnavas : tenkalai and vadagalai. one of the main angas is : rakshisyati iti vishwasaha : the trust that srimannarayana will protect. this is an important anga. you may be reading only some portions of tenkalai works .... I am not sure now since I am writing without having looked through the works today. I feel they cannot get away without this anga of prapatti which is a common item krishna Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
