the poor in the USA

[Guest guest]

 dear sister Usha,

there are a lot of misconceptions both about Christianity and about Hinduism,

and we should try to cut through them and get to the facts.

What Jesus preached and practiced was amply contradicted in 2000 years of

history of Christians – including crusades, inquisition, exploitation of slavery

etc.

What Hindu scriptures and acharyas taught in a much longer period is that all

living entities are part of God and they should be treated as such. Charity is

considered in Vedic civilization as a basic requirement for progressive life.

Above all, charity is the duty of rich people.

It is said that any grihastha (family person), before sitting to his own table

to eat, should go out in the street and call 3 times “anyone who is hungry” and

feed all those who come, become starting to eat himself.

In all scriptures and stories, Kshatriyas are valued for their charity above all

qualities and Vaishyas have the duty to feed all the rest of society.

Employers have the duty to maintain and take care of their employees and their

families for all their lives, including in the times when they are unable to

work.

If Hindus do not do what they are supposed to do, the fault is not in Hinduism.

We cannot say that Christians are better.

If you want FACTS about Christian history (and not the Christian propaganda

myths), I can send you some extract from a book I am writing, “The Roots of

Globalization”.

 

PKD

 

 

 

 

On Mon, 30 May 2005 Sister Usha Devi wrote :

>> "Is there a Tantric Shakta Charities of New

>> York?  Witches' Unemployment Fund?  Buddhist Savings

>> and Loans?  No, no, and no."

>>

>> Here we have a big task. The last religion hasn't seen daylight

>yet. I do not understand why social work aren't more widespread among

>yoga-practitioners. As I see it one effect of yoga is making the

>problems of your fellow beings and fellow-animals yours!

>Charity for the poor is an integral part of Christianity as it was

>originally taught by Jesus. He was a very poor, homeless drifter

>himself, associating with lepers, prostitutes, tax collectors, and

>other outcastes from society. He encouraged everyone else to care for

>such people. He even said that rich people are by nature doomed to

>hell. Some present-day Christians practice this charity while others

>ignore it, but thost that do collect many millions from rich

>Christians to feed and shelter poor Christians. They consider this an

>essential part of their faith.

>    Does Hinduism have such strong arguments in favor of charity in

>its basic tenets? I am not criticising and certainly not saying that

>Christianity is preferable. Certanly not. I am simply asking the

>question inviting people on this list to compare the two.

>Sister Usha

> Links

>

>/

> 

>

>

>

> 

>

>Your use of is subject to the

> Terms of Service

>.

>

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

, "Parama Karuna Devi"

> What Jesus preached and practiced was amply contradicted in 2000

years of history of Christians – including crusades, inquisition,

exploitation of slavery etc.

 

I was not discussing the Crusades or the Inquisition or anything

having to do with the past. I was discussing how Christianity is

practiced in the USA in 2005. There are many thousands of large and

small charitable organizations connected with many Christian groups.

They raise millions of dollars from rich and middle class people and

use it to help the poor, sometimes here in the USA, sometimes in

other countries such as India. They do very good work and I respect

them.

Of course, sometimes they combine charity and prosetylization,

of which I disapprove. But other times they do not. And some groups

do no such charitable work at all.

The thing that surprised me the most about Christians when I

first arrived in the United States is the amazing diversity. There

are often thousands of churches within a single city, representing

hundreds of different organizations. The Catholics are the largest

group, but there are also Baptists and Methodists and Presbyterians

and Pentacostalists and Episcopalians and Congregationalists and

Adventists and Four Square Gospelists and Lutherans and Dutch

Reformists and Jehovah's Witnesses and many others. Even the Baptists

are divided into Southern Baptists, American Baptists, Free-will

Baptists, and others. So please do not tell me that they are all the

same and that they are all involved in imperialistic exploitation of

poor people in other countries. Some are guilty of things like this,

but others do good work trying to repair the bad effects of the

others.

> Charity is considered in Vedic civilization as a basic requirement

for progressive life. Above all, charity is the duty of rich people.

 

Good. I am very glad of this. Question: Are Hindus better at

following these teachings than Christians are at following the

teachings of Jesus?

> If you want FACTS about Christian history (and not the Christian

propaganda myths), I can send you some extract from a book I am

writing, "The Roots of Globalization".

 

I see. Where are you getting your information for this book? If you

are basing your conclusions on examination of one or two or a small

number of Christian organizations, I suggest that you expand it to

include many hundreds. And I suggest that you visit hundreds of

churches in the USA and talk to the people in these churches to ask

them their beliefs instead of reading what some non-Christian has

said about Christian beliefs.

I hope that you do not misunderstand my perspective. I am not

Christian and dislike many Christian practices. What I oppose most

strenuously is the members of any one religious group attacking

another. If Christians begin saying bad and ignorant things about

Hindus, I shall object most strongly. Indeed, I have done this many

thousands of times since I moved to the USA. You should hear some of

the ignorant things that I have heard Americans say about Hinduism.

What the world needs is bridges between peoples, increased trust and

understanding between different groups. We all need to be friends and

work together to solve the world's problems. Other faiths are not our

enemy. Ignorance and hatred are our enemies.

 

Sister Usha

[Guest guest]

Sister Usha Devi <sisterusha wrote:

 

, "Parama Karuna Devi"

 

What Jesus preached and practiced was amply contradicted in 2000 years of

history of Christians – including crusades, inquisition, exploitation of slavery

etc.

 

I was not discussing the Crusades or the Inquisition or anything having to do

with the past. I was discussing how Christianity is practiced in the USA in

2005. There are many thousands of large and small charitable organizations

connected with many Christian groups. They raise millions of dollars from rich

and middle class people and use it to help the poor, sometimes here in the USA,

sometimes in other countries such as India. They do very good work and I respect

them

 

 

 

 

..==è> I have not seen any genuine Christian charity in the 49 years I lived

there. There was only nasty prosetylisation followed by denigration of Hinduism.

They will conceal who has been converted to get State aid. And when ppl get too

fed up they react and then these uncultured whites will cry persecution. (Most

who come are utterly uncultured and have agendas of their own) I will not

recount their actions and social behaviour. Less said the better. They raise

millions and swallow millions. They also accept what has been stolen by the

crooks from the poor white pensioner’s funds – knowing to be stolen- and use it

for nefarious activities. They also indulge in pedophilia; sale of children for

adoption and the like. So I do not see anything worthwhile in their activities.

They are dirty and are to be kept out. In order to understand their attitude one

must remember how they canme up and to that extent their past history IS

RELEVANT.

 

 

Of course, sometimes they combine charity and prosetylization, of which I

disapprove. But other times they do not. And some groups do no such charitable

work at all.

 

 

 

 

=è Not SOMETIMES; ALWAYS. Show me one instance when that is not part of the

agenda. It is like saying a Doctor “sometimes” treats while most of the time he

does not!! That’s the very raison d’etre of their existence. To say that a

missionary is not attempting to convert and denigrate other religions is like

saying a fish does not swim. T is their very nature.

 

 

 

 

********

 

Good. I am very glad of this. Question: Are Hindus better at following these

teachings than Christians are at following the teachings of Jesus? =è yes I

think so. I have seen no Christian following Christ’s teachings. In Africa they

are still ranging about trying to destroy African culture in the name of

religion. They have destroyed 90% already. They are still at it.

 

If you want FACTS about Christian history (and not the Christian propaganda

myths), I can send you some extract from a book I am writing, "The Roots of

Globalization"

 

==> Good it would be good missionary propaganda eh?

 

 

I see. Where are you getting your information for this book? If you are basing

your conclusions on examination of one or two or a small number of Christian

organizations, I suggest that you expand it to include many hundreds. And I

suggest that you visit hundreds of churches in the USA and talk to the people in

these churches to ask them their beliefs instead of reading what some

non-Christian has

said about Christian beliefs.

 

OHHHHHHHH its OK for non Christians to read what Christians have said about

non-christians but vice versa is wrong?

 

 

I hope that you do not misunderstand my perspective. I am not Christian and

dislike many Christian practices. What I oppose most strenuously is the members

of any one religious group attacking another. If Christians begin saying bad and

ignorant things about Hindus, I shall object most strongly. Indeed, I have done

this many thousands of times since I moved to the USA. You should hear some of

the ignorant things that I have heard Americans say about Hinduism. What the

world needs is bridges between peoples, increased trust and understanding

between different groups. We all need to be friends and work together to solve

the world's problems. Other faiths are not our enemy. Ignorance and hatred are

our enemies.

 

 

How interesting!!

 

My Dear Usha devi have you any idea when “If Christians begin saying bad and

ignorant things about Hindus,” started? It was not yesterday or day before. It

was CENTURIES ago and the aim was to colonize. Now again the aim is economic

colonization. Why do u think the Pope and company specifically target India?

They fear the developing economy of India. So the church is but an instrument of

colonization as it has always been. The Christians are not STARTING. They are

CONTINUING. We Hindus are tolerant but there is a limit to tolerance. Let the

Christians learn to be tolerant. That’s one thing they are not!! Building

bridges is a two way process and it can start only when missionary work and

conversion efforts stop as well as attempts at economic colonization.

 

 

Sister Usha

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Mail - You care about security. So do we.

 

 

[Guest guest]

There is no such thing as christian charity.

Christianioty is no single phenomena. It is called foreign oppression

and comes 3 in 1.

 

1. First come the miltitary and they bomb and destroy,

2. after that the big companies come to enslave the people,

3. the christian charity further enslaves destroys and oppresses the

culture from within,

 

The companies and the church enslave the people by makeing them

dependend on their aid.

If the people are depend the miltary can leave the country and bomb the

next.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 5/30/2005 9:37:07 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

sisterusha writes:

The Catholics are the largest

group,

 

 

As far as Christian denominations go, they are the largest in the world, but

not in the USA otherwise we would have had more catholic presidents! Most of

our leaders have been protestants as well as the founding fathers of this

country. It is predominately protestant, but within that umbrealla there are

many

variations some more backwards then others.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 5/30/2005 10:56:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

mahahradanatha writes:

If there is something purly evil it has the name christianity

Come on man! I can see what you are saying but it is a little extreme. If

there is something purely evil it has the name humanity, don't be so limiting.

 

Who hasn't conquered, killed or subjugated others, not me! But every group of

people has done this in history and no one is guiltless. The Jews conquered

middle eastern lands destroyed idols raped and pillaged etc. So did the Roman,

the Greek, Various groups of Arabs, African tribes etc.

 

Humanity has some evil tendencies it is never so simple as to say this group

or that group is evil

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

I am greatly saddened by hearing such hatred coming from people who

profess to be Hindus. I think of Hinds as being above this sort of

thing, but perhaps I am mistaken.

I have had much more experience with Christians than you, having

lived in a predominately Christian country for many years and visited

many of their churches. I already said in my previous post that I

have seen some examples of Christians acting badly but other examples

of them acting nobly and charitably. Perhaps you have not seen their

charity and their kindness, but this does negate the fact that I have

seen it myself.

And I have seen much tolerance of people of other faiths among

Christians. There have been some that have tried in vain to convert

me, but most do not. Many Christians treat me and my faith with

respect. Again, the fact that you may not have seen this does not

negate the fact that I have seen it. For anyone to say that there is

no such thing as Christian charity is not an opinion but an error. It

is an error based on limited exposure to one side of Christianity

rather than a more broadly-based exposure to the entire spectrum of

Christians.

Let me further ask you this question: What good comes from you

continuing to say such hateful things about the members of other

faiths? Does it make the world a better place to keep telling

everyone how evil Christians are? Does this help bring peace to the

world? No. Quite the contrary, it fosters mistrust and further

animosity. Do you wish to be known as the spreader of hatred?

Yes, Christians need to learn more about Hindus and Moslems and

Buddhists and others, but Hindus and Moslems and Buddhists also need

to learn more about Christianity. This must be done objectively and

patiently, so that we may all become brothers and sisters.

We have only one planet to share, and we must all learn to

share it in peace. I say that the peace should begin with us. Let us

be the models for others to follow. Let us preach love and compassion

and tolerance. And let us not be hyporcrites. Let us feel and show

love and compassion. If we spread hatred, we sink to the level of

those whom we criticize. If we sink to their level, we are in fact no

better than they are.

 

Sister Usha

[Guest guest]

Yes, Christians need to learn more about Hindus and Moslems and

> Buddhists and others, but Hindus and Moslems and Buddhists also need

> to learn more about Christianity.

ok

than we start learning :

 

WONDERFUL EVENTS THAT TESTIFY TO GOD'S DIVINE GLORY

 

http://www.room23.org/artikel_47.html

[Guest guest]

AS TROOPS OUTSIDE BAGHDAD, CHRISTIAN MISSIONARIES READY FOR

PROSELYTIZING, "HUMANITARIAN" INVASION...

 

Christian missionary and relief organizations are ready to cross the

Jordanian border and begin operations in Iraq. One group is headed by

Franklin Graham, son of the prominent American evangelist, who has

described Islam as a wicked religion. Concerns are raised that with

food and medicine will come aggressive preaching and efforts to

convert vulnerable people to fundamentalist Christianity. Should

modern day Christian "Crusaders" be part of the mission to bring

democracy and human rights to the Middle East? (4-4-03)

 

Visit us on the world wide web at [http://www.atheists.org/]

for news, analysis and commentary.

 

AMERICAN ATHEISTS is a nationwide movement that defends civil rights

for nonbelievers; works for the total separation of church and state;

and addresses issues of First Amendment public policy

[Guest guest]

--- Sister Usha Devi <sisterusha wrote:

> ...There are many

> thousands of large and

> small charitable organizations connected with many

> Christian groups.

> They raise millions of dollars from rich and middle

> class people and

> use it to help the poor, sometimes here in the USA,

> sometimes in

> other countries such as India. They do very good

> work and I respect

> them.

 

But there was a long-standing tradition of the US

government providing assistance for the poor and

handicapped. Why is the Bush administartion

eliminating this? I would much prefer my country to

take care of its people, than have religious

organizations caring for people, because the

expectation of religious conversion in such situations

is common.

 

The United States Constitution is founded on a notion

called "separation of Church and State." The current

administration seems especially bent on eliminating

the separation.

 

I have friends who are atheists. It doesn't seem a

sensible attitude to me, but aren't they allowed to

believe (or dis-believe) whatever they want? Will

they be left without any recourse for assistance?

 

Bush's insistance that T-cell rsearch be forbidden,

when the fetuses the T-cells will be taken from are to

be destroyed, anyway -- does that make sense? If he's

so concerned with preserving human life, pull the

troops out of Iraq!

> I am not

> Christian and dislike many Christian practices. What

> I oppose most

> strenuously is the members of any one religious

> group attacking

> another. If Christians begin saying bad and ignorant

> things about

> Hindus, I shall object most strongly. Indeed, I have

> done this many

> thousands of times since I moved to the USA. You

> should hear some of

> the ignorant things that I have heard Americans say

> about Hinduism.

> What the world needs is bridges between peoples,

> increased trust and

> understanding between different groups. We all need

> to be friends and

> work together to solve the world's problems. Other

> faiths are not our

> enemy. Ignorance and hatred are our enemies.

 

I agree with you Usha-ji. And don't forget the

negative effects of greed. Desire for oil, desire for

control, desire for power-over. (I'm not thrilled

with the Israeli's treatment of the Palestineans,

either!)

 

-- Len

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

, swastik108@a... wrote:

> In a message dated 5/30/2005 10:56:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

> mahahradanatha writes:

> If there is something purly evil it has the name christianity

> Come on man! I can see what you are saying but it is a little

extreme.

Yes it needs some clarification i have already deleted the original

post and amendet it, but if you take a closer look at the history of

christianity i do not think it is that much exagerated Christianity

IS the purest form of evil that has ever existed on this planet in

the known history:

 

 

•from the beginning of Christianity to 1484 probably more than

several thousand killed.

•in the era of witch hunting (1484-1750) according to modern scholars

several hundred thousand (about 80% female) burned at the stake or

hanged.

•incomplete list of documented cases:

The Burning of Witches - A Chronicle of the Burning Times

 

Religious Wars

 

•15th century: Crusades against Hussites, thousands slain.

[DO30] •1538 pope Paul III declared Crusade against apostate England

and all English as slaves of Church (fortunately had not power to go

into action). [DO31]

•1568 Spanish Inquisition Tribunal ordered extermination of 3 million

rebels in (then Spanish) Netherlands. Thousands were actually slain.

•1572 In France about 20,000 Huguenots were killed on command of pope

Pius V. Until 17th century 200,000 flee. [DO31]

•17th century: Catholics slay Gaspard de Coligny, a Protestant

leader. After murdering him, the Catholic mob mutilated his

body, "cutting off his head, his hands, and his genitals... and then

dumped him into the river [...but] then, deciding that it was not

worthy of being food for the fish, they hauled it out again [... and]

dragged what was left ... to the gallows of Montfaulcon, 'to be meat

and carrion for maggots and crows'.

•17th century: Catholics sack the city of Magdeburg/Germany: roughly

30,000 Protestants were slain. "In a single church fifty women were

found beheaded," reported poet Friedrich Schiller, "and infants still

sucking the breasts of their lifeless mothers."

•17th century 30 years' war (Catholic vs. Protestant): at least 40%

of population decimated, mostly in Germany.

 

Jews

 

•Already in the 4th and 5th centuries synagogues were burned by

Christians. Number of Jews slain unknown.

•In the middle of the fourth century the first synagogue was

destroyed on command of bishop Innocentius of Dertona in Northern

Italy. The first synagogue known to have been burned down was near

the river Euphrat, on command of the bishop of Kallinikon in the year

388. [DA450]

•17. Council of Toledo 694: Jews were enslaved, their property

confiscated, and their children forcibly baptized.

•The Bishop of Limoges (France) in 1010 had the cities' Jews, who

would not convert to Christianity, expelled or killed.

•First Crusade: Thousands of Jews slaughtered 1096, maybe 12.000

total. Places: Worms 5/18/1096, Mainz 5/27/1096 (1100 persons),

Cologne, Neuss, Altenahr, Wevelinghoven, Xanten, Moers, Dortmund,

Kerpen, Trier, Metz, Regensburg, Prag and others (All locations

Germany except Metz/France, Prag/Czech)

•Second Crusade: 1147. Several hundred Jews were slain in Ham, Sully,

Carentan, and Rameru (all locations in France).

•Third Crusade: English Jewish communities sacked 1189/90.

•Fulda/Germany 1235: 34 Jewish men and women slain.

•1257, 1267: Jewish communities of London, Canterbury, Northampton,

Lincoln, Cambridge, and others exterminated.

•1290 in Bohemian (Poland) allegedly 10,000 Jews killed.

•1337 Starting in Deggendorf/Germany a Jew-killing craze reaches 51

towns in Bavaria, Austria, Poland.

•1348 All Jews of Basel/Switzerland and Strasbourg/France (two

thousand) burned.

•349 In more than 350 towns in Germany all Jews murdered, mostly

burned alive (in this one year more Jews were killed than Christians

in 200 years of ancient Roman persecution of Christians).

•1389 In Prag 3,000 Jews were slaughtered.

•1391 Seville's Jews killed (Archbishop Martinez leading). 4,000 were

slain, 25,000 sold as slaves. Their identification was made easy by

the brightly colored "badges of shame" that all jews above the age of

ten had been forced to wear.

•1492: In the year Columbus set sail to conquer a New World, more

than 150,000 Jews were expelled from Spain, many died on their way:

6/30/1492.

•1648 Chmielnitzki massacres: In Poland about 200,000 Jews were slain.

 

 

Native Peoples

 

•Beginning with Columbus (a former slave trader and would-be Holy

Crusader) the conquest of the New World began, as usual understood as

a means to propagate Christianity.

•Within hours of landfall on the first inhabited island he

encountered in the Caribbean, Columbus seized and carried off six

native people who, he said, "ought to be good servants ... [and]

would easily be made Christians, because it seemed to me that they

belonged to no religion."

While Columbus described the Indians as "idolators" and "slaves, as

many as [the Crown] shall order," his pal Michele de Cuneo, Italian

nobleman, referred to the natives as "beasts" because "they eat when

they are hungry," and made love "openly whenever they feel like it."

•On every island he set foot on, Columbus planted a cross, "making

the declarations that are required" - the requerimiento - to claim

the ownership for his Catholic patrons in Spain. And "nobody

objected." If the Indians refused or delayed their acceptance (or

understanding), the requerimiento continued:

"I certify to you that, with the help of God, we shall powerfully

enter in your country and shall make war against you ... and shall

subject you to the yoke and obedience of the Church ... and shall do

you all mischief that we can, as to vassals who do not obey and

refuse to receive their lord and resist and contradict him."

•Likewise in the words of John Winthrop, first governor of

Massachusetts Bay Colony: "justifieinge the undertakeres of the

intended Plantation in New England ... to carry the Gospell into

those parts of the world, ... and to raise a Bulworke against the

kingdome of the Ante-Christ."

•In average two thirds of the native population were killed by

colonist-imported smallpox before violence began. This was a great

sign of "the marvelous goodness and providence of God" to the

Christians of course, e.g. the Governor of the Massachusetts Bay

Colony wrote in 1634, as "for the natives, they are near all dead of

the smallpox, so as the Lord hath cleared our title to what we

possess."

•On Hispaniola alone, on Columbus visits, the native population

(Arawak), a rather harmless and happy people living on an island of

abundant natural resources, a literal paradise, soon mourned 50,000

dead.

•The surviving Indians fell victim to rape, murder, enslavement and

spanish raids.

•As one of the culprits wrote: "So many Indians died that they could

not be counted, all through the land the Indians lay dead everywhere.

The stench was very great and pestiferous."

•The indian chief Hatuey fled with his people but was captured and

burned alive. As "they were tying him to the stake a Franciscan friar

urged him to take Jesus to his heart so that his soul might go to

heaven, rather than descend into hell. Hatuey replied that if heaven

was where the Christians went, he would rather go to hell."

 

•What happened to his people was described by an eyewitness:

 

"The Spaniards found pleasure in inventing all kinds of odd

cruelties ... They built a long gibbet, long enough for the toes to

touch the ground to prevent strangling, and hanged thirteen [natives]

at a time in honor of Christ Our Saviour and the twelve Apostles...

then, straw was wrapped around their torn bodies and they were burned

alive."

 

"The Spaniards cut off the arm of one, the leg or hip of another, and

from some their heads at one stroke, like butchers cutting up beef

and mutton for market. Six hundred, including the cacique, were thus

slain like brute beasts...Vasco [de Balboa] ordered forty of them to

be torn to pieces by dogs."

•The "island's population of about eight million people at the time

of Columbus's arrival in 1492 already had declined by a third to a

half before the year 1496 was out." Eventually all the island's

natives were exterminated, so the Spaniards were "forced" to import

slaves from other caribbean islands, who soon suffered the same fate.

Thus "the Caribbean's millions of native people [were] thereby

effectively liquidated in barely a quarter of a century". "In less

than the normal lifetime of a single human being, an entire culture

of millions of people, thousands of years resident in their homeland,

had been exterminated."

•"Ad then the Spanish turned their attention to the mainland of

Mexico and Central America. The slaughter had barely begun. The

exquisite city of Tenochtitlán [Mexico city] was next."

•Cortez, Pizarro, De Soto and hundreds of other spanish conquistadors

likewise sacked southern and mesoamerican civilizations in the name

of Christ (De Soto also sacked Florida).

•"When the 16th century ended, some 200,000 Spaniards had moved to

the Americas. By that time probably more than 60,000,000 natives were

dead."

[Guest guest]

mahahradanatha wrote:

 

 

"There is no such thging as christian charity.

First come the miltitary and they bomb and destroy,

after that the big comapanies to enslave the people,

Then the christian come and further enslave destroy and opress the

culture from within.

If there is something purly evil it has the name christianity"

 

I can atleast tell about my country and here salvation army does a real good

job, for example taking care of down-and-outs.

 

They do not wave with the bible either when helping people. Reportedly it was

the salvation army which in the beginning of last century stopped

childprostitution in UK.

 

I think it is wrong to cathegorize people as you do.

 

Regards

 

Lars

 

 

 

 

 

 

..

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

swastik wrote:

>Humanity has some evil tendencies it is never so simple as to say this group

>or that group is evil

 

"Our salvation depends on the power we own to keep the evil at distance. This

struggle is eternal."

 

- Sessue Hayakawa

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

"i do not think it is that much exagerated Christianity

IS the purest form of evil that has ever existed on this planet in

the known history: <snip>"

 

This is not a record of a certain outlook it is a record of man. And don't

forget all wars before christianity. The Roman Empire and Djingis Kahn and

Alexander the Great.

 

We also have Japan during ww2 not to mention all wars of communism.

 

Lars

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

> As far as Christian denominations go, they are the largest in the

world, but

> not in the USA otherwise we would have had more catholic presidents!

 

The Roman Catholic Church is the largest religious organization in the

United States. There are more Protestants than Catholics, but the

Protestants are divided into hundreds of different groups. Not one of

these groups has more members than the Catholic Church.

 

Sister Usha

[Guest guest]

> I think it is wrong to cathegorize people as you do.

 

 

Yes it is wrong.

 

But the whole planet will be destroyed if the 3 in 1 : Christianity

plus globalization plus US domination suceeds.

 

That is why one must by all means bring these matters up even if it

means to provoke and categorize

[Guest guest]

> But there was a long-standing tradition of the US

> government providing assistance for the poor and

> handicapped.

 

Not so long-standing. Some of this began in the 1930s, and got much

larger in the 1960s, but nothing older than that.

>Why is the Bush administartion

> eliminating this? ...

> The United States Constitution is founded on a notion

> called "separation of Church and State." The current

> administration seems especially bent on eliminating

> the separation.

 

You answered your own question. Mr. Bush wants power transfered from

the government to the churches. He wants his own narrow brand of

Christianity making the laws for the country.

It is important to note that not all Christians agree with Mr.

Bush. Some of the more liberal groups such as Methodists and

Congregationalists have been openly opposing his policies, trying to

stop him.

> I have friends who are atheists. It doesn't seem a

> sensible attitude to me, but aren't they allowed to

> believe (or dis-believe) whatever they want?

 

Traditionally, yes, but their rights are under attack. In much more

serious position are the moslems. The government has been persecuting

moslems in direct violation of the constitution.

>Will

> they be left without any recourse for assistance?

 

Possibly.

> Bush's insistance that T-cell rsearch be forbidden,

> when the fetuses the T-cells will be taken from are to

> be destroyed, anyway -- does that make sense? If he's

> so concerned with preserving human life, pull the

> troops out of Iraq!

 

I certainly agree. Invading Iraq was a stupid and immoral action.

Many many Americans agree.

 

Sister Usha

[Guest guest]

> If Hindus do not do what they are supposed to do, the fault is not in

Hinduism.

 

I was just rereading your posts and found this very wise statement that

I had overlooked. This is very true and very astute.

But can you blame Jesus and Christianity if people claiming to be

Christians have ignored Jesus and his teachings? It is the fault of the

followers, not the founder and not of his faith.

Let me repeat. Yes, people claiming to be Christians have done

some horrible things in history. But Jesus taught peace and love and

charity. Some Christians follow his teachings and therefore you

overlook them in your listings of the crimes that alleged Christians

have committed. There are other wonderful things that true Christians

have done that you overlook.

 

Sister Usha

[Guest guest]

What is the toll now ? I think something like 15 % of the world

population is using aroud 85 & of ALL the world resources?

 

...and they still need more all other countries in econmic dependence

(globalization=modern colonialism) and debt and agrressive wars against

iraq ..maybe . iran and what then?

>

[Guest guest]

Being tolerant is commendable. But allowing onesself

to be abused and mistreated is not going to improve

things.

 

Lars complimented me for my honesty -- he said most

people would be ashamed of being poor, and keep quiet

about it. I believe in crying out about injustice,

and fighting for the rights of the underpriviledged.

It is the squeeky wheel that gets the grease.

 

-- Len/ Kalipadma

 

 

--- sankara menon <kochu1tz wrote:

>

>[from Sister Usha]

> Let me further ask you this question: What good

> comes from you continuing to say such hateful things

> about the members of other faiths? Does it make the

> world a better place to keep telling everyone how

> evil Christians are? Does this help bring peace to

> the world? No. Quite the contrary, it fosters

> mistrust and further animosity. Do you wish to be

> known as the spreader of hatred?

>

> Very nice; what are you asking? That Hindus e

> tolerant while the Churh continues its depradations?

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi, guys. I have been watching this silly argument and laughing. You

guys are shouting at each other but not listening to each other. Let

me give you a fresh perspective from a former Chrisitian.

 

Hi! My name is Yvonne. I am 22, American, tall, blonde and of

Norwegian ancestry. My mother is a Christian minister of the Lutheran

variety. She is very, very conservative and very strict about

Christian moral values. I came to resent this when I was a teenager,

and by the time I was 15 I passionately hated my mother and her

religion.

 

Fortunately, years ago, my uncle visited India and met a beautiful

woman there named Usha. Wisest woman in the entire history of the

world. He married her and brought her home to the USA. I decided I

wanted to join her and worship Kali instead of Jesus, so my Auntie

Usha started teaching me years ago. Wonderful teacher she is.

 

One thing my Auntie Usha taught me is that nobody has a monopoly on

wisdom. Everybody has something to teach and only a fool thinks he or

she has nothing to learn. Every religion has to have something

positive to teach. Nobody would believe in it otherwise. My Auntie

Usha practices this herself. Even if she dislikes somebody's faith,

she will sit there listening patiently, trying to learn everything

she can. Nothing will change her own faith in Kali, she says, but by

studying other religions she can come to understand Kali better.

Jesus and Allah and all the thousands of other names people have used

for the divine are all different names for the great and glorious

Mother Kali.

 

Now, as for what you guys have been saying about the evils of

Christianity, that is just silly. Yes, there were horrible things

that happened centuries ago, but everybody else in the world at that

time did things like too. How many people did the Mongols kill? The

Chinese during all their civil wars and such? The Turks? I could go

on and on. I don't give a damn who did what centuries ago. Ask what

is going on now.

 

And don't blame Christianity for what that imbecile cowboy in the

White House is doing. There are many Christians who oppose Bush and

join our prostest rallies trying to stop him. He is twisting

Christinity for his own purposes. Even my conservative minister

mother agrees with that.

 

My mother always quoted Jesus in church every Sunday when she was

preaching. She taught love and peace and charity. There was always

some sort of charity drive raising money for the poor. And people did

give lots of money. I don't think any of it left the country. I think

it all went to the other side of our city, to help poor people right

here in America, people with no jobs and no food. And we just passed

the stuff out to the poor people without even asking what church they

went to. No proselytizing. Just pure charity. My mother taught that

we would be rewarded in heaven if we gave without asking for anything

in return.

 

This is not what I hated about my mother's religion. I hated the part

about her telling me what to wear and where I could go and what I

could do with my friends, espeically the boys. That I hated.

 

My auntie Usha said that there are hundreds of Christian groups

around, and it is silly to blame all Christians for what some bad

people calling themselves Christians have been doing. Right as usual,

my wise Auntie Usha. Maybe there are some bad people in India calling

themselves Christians but ignoring the teachings of Jesus. I don't

doubt that. But there are millions of other Christians who do follow

Jesus and do good things that you people are ignoring.

 

I don't hate my mother's religion now. My Auntie Usha taught me not

to. I am not Christian and never will be again. But I accept that

that is what works for my mother, so let her do whatever makes her

happy.

 

So you guys please stop all this silly name-calling and talk about

something more positive.

 

Jai Mahakali!

 

Yvonne

[Guest guest]

Yvonne wrote: Hi! My name is Yvonne. I am 22, American, tall, blonde

and of Norwegian ancestry. My mother is a Christian minister of the

Lutheran variety. She is very, very conservative and very strict

about Christian moral values. I came to resent this when I was a

teenager, and by the time I was 15 I passionately hated my mother and

her religion.

 

 

Interesting. Ive read that introduction many times and how often you

come here praising your aunty usha all the time etc.... It seems to

me like some self promotion strategy. Now I want to ask : are you

what you claim yourself to be? I have this image keeps on coming to me

is that behind these two character there is that some young aspiring

fiction character trying very hard to convince the list here that such

character as Sister Usha and Yvonne exist. They both makes a very

interesting character dont you agree. The real person behind all this

is sitting in silence watching having a good laugh.

 

Oh! he is indeed with us here in the group!

[Guest guest]

, sankara menon <kochu1tz>

wrote [to Sister Usha]:

> [....]

> Do ou think putting Hindu Gods on Toilet seats and

> wipes and shoes are random actions ? [....]

 

You forgot stockings. Also on stockings and socks. And beer bottles!

> I do not think so;

> it is part of a concerted campaign. [....]

 

Rather than "random", I'd use the word "stupid" or "ignorant."

I wouldn't attribute to malice what can be explained by stupidity or

ignorance. It's not quite a cheerful thought, but ignorance *is* the

more common commodity.

[Guest guest]

, Len Rosenberg

<kalipadma108> wrote:

> But there was a long-standing tradition of the US

> government providing assistance for the poor and

> handicapped. Why is the Bush administartion

> eliminating this?

 

Thought you might appreciate the following quote, off-topic though

it might be:

 

"Should any political party attempt to abolish social security,

unemployment insurance, and eliminate labor laws and farm programs,

you would not hear of that party again in our political history.

There is a tiny splinter group, of course, that believes that you

can do these things. Among them are [...] a few [...] Texas oil

millionaires and an occasional politician or businessman from other

areas. Their number is negligible and THEY ARE STUPID."

 

[Emphasis added]

 

[u.S. President] Dwight D. Eisenhower

http://www.snopes.com/politics/quotes/ike.asp

> [....] And don't forget the

> negative effects of greed. Desire for oil, desire for

> control, desire for power-over. [....]

[Guest guest]

Would you mind elaborating a little further?

 

This sudden love of CATHOLICISM had me wondering too. Mind you what was being

defended was not CHRISTIANITY but catholicism!!

 

And when the questions and details became too uncomfortable and irrefutable,

there was a withdrawal and entry of a new charector with an air of superiority

(the basic charecterestic of a missionary or evangelist). but everything comes

with a triad no? who is the third? is it a teacher or is it a bookseller? I am

not sure. The seedy bookshop seems closed most of the time though.

 

As someone said, on the net one can masqurade as anything. Not that it matters.

Let us look at the writing and not the writer. So it does not matter whether it

is Curazon, Usha or Yvonne or the part time lecturer or seedy bookseller. Lets

look at the writing.

 

 

NMadasamy <nmadasamy wrote:

Yvonne wrote: Hi! My name is Yvonne. I am 22, American, tall, blonde and of

Norwegian ancestry. My mother is a Christian minister of the Lutheran variety.

She is very, very conservative and very strict about Christian moral values. I

came to resent this when I was a teenager, and by the time I was 15 I

passionately hated my mother and

her religion.

 

 

Interesting. Ive read that introduction many times and how often you come here

praising your aunty usha all the time etc.... It seems to me like some self

promotion strategy. Now I want to ask : are you what you claim yourself to be?

I have this image keeps on coming to me is that behind these two character there

is that some young aspiring fiction character trying very hard to convince the

list here that such character as Sister Usha and Yvonne exist. They both makes a

very interesting character dont you agree. The real person behind all this is

sitting in silence watching having a good laugh.

 

Oh! he is indeed with us here in the group!

 

 

 

 

 

/

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

!