Statues of Gurus

May 8, 2005

A friend of mine (let's call her Carrie) is a big

devotee of a Tamil Siddha who calls himself Baba Shri

Siva. I've been a guest of Carrie's at public

satsangs held by Shri Siva in New York -- they are

expensive, I can't afford them, and Carrie can't treat

me to them very often.

Shri Siva has some power as a Guru, and his teachings

are interesting, but he obviously is aiming for a

following among America's money-ed Yuppies. I am a

devotee of Ammachi of Kerala, and I've taken Carrie to

have darshan of Ammachi as well. Carrie is not

impressed; she says Ammachi is a nice lady who hugs

people. Shri Siva, she says, chants in a way that

raises her kundalini, and besides, his teachings are

more valuable if they are expensive. (This makes me

laugh.)

Recently, Carrie told me that devotees who paid

hundreds of dollars to Shri Siva for private darshan

have gotten special E-mail notices. A source of

yantras and other Hindu religious devices is making

limited editions of panch-loka murthies of Shri Siva,

which the devotees can buy for lots of bucks. Carrie

is considering buying one.

My question: Is this a usual procedure in Hinduism?

I know that the ISKCON people sell statues of Swami

Prabhupad for worship. I also believe the SYDA Yoga

people make available statues of Swami Nityananda,

suitable for performing puja upon. But Prabhupad and

Nityananda have dropped their bodies. Is it normal to

worship a murthi of one's spiritual preceptor while he

is still alive?

Carrie points out that Ammachi's followers sell

huggable Amma dolls for plenty of money, too. But the

dolls aren't being worshipped (I don't think they are,

anyway). Carrie is thinking that the Shri Siva murthi

will be an investment, as well as a source of bhakti.

And besides, she points out, Shri Siva is thin and

distinguished-looking. She thinks Ammachi is fat and

commonplace.

I don't understand my friend Carrie at all.

Comments?

-- Len/ Kalipadma

May 8, 2005

Wow. Just from what you say, I much prefer the Carrie of Stephen

King's story from years ago (played by Sissie Spacek in the movie).

She was a very powerful person whose strong emotions caused some

havoc, but she was likeable.

Maybe Carrie can spring for you to scan that picture you posted

about awhile back...?

I guess, each to her/his own. But does Carrie need to justify her

attraction to her guru by putting your guru down? She is entitled to

choose what works best for her. The divine is still divine, and

works its wonders in its ways. If someone knows that this guru of

hers is a fraud, and/or is bilking folks out of their life savings

or something, that's another matter, too. It's nice that you brought

her to Amma for darshan. BTW I have read of Amma recommending that a

person go to another guru (other than herself, that is); not sure

which guru, but I recall either reading it or hearing about it, that

she recommended a man to go work with a male guru.

, Len Rosenberg

<kalipadma108> wrote:

>

> A friend of mine (let's call her Carrie) is a big

> devotee of a Tamil Siddha who calls himself Baba Shri

> Siva. I've been a guest of Carrie's at public

> satsangs held by Shri Siva in New York -- they are

> expensive, I can't afford them, and Carrie can't treat

> me to them very often.

>

> Shri Siva has some power as a Guru, and his teachings

> are interesting, but he obviously is aiming for a

> following among America's money-ed Yuppies. I am a

> devotee of Ammachi of Kerala, and I've taken Carrie to

> have darshan of Ammachi as well. Carrie is not

> impressed; she says Ammachi is a nice lady who hugs

> people. Shri Siva, she says, chants in a way that

> raises her kundalini, and besides, his teachings are

> more valuable if they are expensive. (This makes me

> laugh.)

>

> Recently, Carrie told me that devotees who paid

> hundreds of dollars to Shri Siva for private darshan

> have gotten special E-mail notices. A source of

> yantras and other Hindu religious devices is making

> limited editions of panch-loka murthies of Shri Siva,

> which the devotees can buy for lots of bucks. Carrie

> is considering buying one.

>

> My question: Is this a usual procedure in Hinduism?

> I know that the ISKCON people sell statues of Swami

> Prabhupad for worship. I also believe the SYDA Yoga

> people make available statues of Swami Nityananda,

> suitable for performing puja upon. But Prabhupad and

> Nityananda have dropped their bodies. Is it normal to

> worship a murthi of one's spiritual preceptor while he

> is still alive?

>

> Carrie points out that Ammachi's followers sell

> huggable Amma dolls for plenty of money, too. But the

> dolls aren't being worshipped (I don't think they are,

> anyway). Carrie is thinking that the Shri Siva murthi

> will be an investment, as well as a source of bhakti.

> And besides, she points out, Shri Siva is thin and

> distinguished-looking. She thinks Ammachi is fat and

> commonplace.

>

> I don't understand my friend Carrie at all.

>

> Comments?

>

> -- Len/ Kalipadma

>

May 8, 2005

Dear Len

I also see Ammachi and Sri Karunamayi when they come to NYC , at both visits

there are pictures of Amma's on brochures even pictures lets say of Devi

Gayatri who's head is replaced by one of the Amma's to make it look like Amma is

Sri Lalhita etc.... ultimately this is what they represent .

I have read in Awaken Children about how Amma guided one Swami to look at her

picture while meditating She sad that will bring him closer to His inner spirit

.. In India there are whole ceremonies devoted to Guru worship ( in this case a

statue would not surprise me ) . The fact that a certain Guru passed on does not

change the relevance or potency of a teacher Shirdi Baba is perfect example

here , to this day many devotees claim to feel or sense His guidance , Shirdi

Temple has Shirdi Statue that is being worshiped in sense of representation .

The only factor to me in your experience for myself that I would question is the

money being collected . As You know yourself both Ammas give free public

programs to me that is a sign of genuine teacher, however somebody else maybe

need to pay lots of money

to feel truth I personally don't . Guru Stotra describes Guru , it might give

you further insight on to worship of Guru .

You also mentioned your friends attitude towards the look of the Guru in this

case Amma's size hmmmmm, has your friend ever read ' Beauty and the Beast '

that is not to diminish on Amma's attractiveness however the morale of the story

can hardly be disregarded here. One of the favorite Goddesses comes to mind is

Dumati Goddess Who is anything but beautiful , Who protects Her children with

this cloud of unattractive illusion.

joanna p

May 8, 2005

Comments?

-- Len/ Kalipadma

=====We've all stepped in shit before, so if you smell it, you will know that

someone stepped in it. Don't ever not trust your intuition. It's all you have

between yourself and the wolves that circle. As for your friend. there's no

accounting for taste, but don't be judgemental towards her in any way. She is

doing what she thinks is right. Either way. that's pretty lovable. It's when

the emails stop and he himself starts calling at 2:00 am that would be truely

telling.

May 8, 2005

am that would be truely telling.

----Siva Baba at one point was Maharishi Mahesh Yogi's student and Maharishi

wanted him to head the India side of his operation but Sivababa decided to break

out on his own, though obviously not over ideological differences, but because

there was more money in being independent. Today religion is as big a seller as

street drugs with about as much benefit, and is being pushed much in the same

way. Personally I think street drugs are more beneficial than false religions

which have nothing but the creation of cash cows as their source course and

goal. At least street drugs work. I'm really surprised that people still buy

such patent crap but then people also are still addicted to crack cocaine.

May 8, 2005

, Len Rosenberg

<kalipadma108> wrote:

> And besides, she points out, Shri Siva is thin and

> distinguished-looking. She thinks Ammachi is fat and

> commonplace.

>

> I don't understand my friend Carrie at all.

>

> Comments?

>

> -- Len/ Kalipadma

Hi Kalipadma,

I think, all of your friend's points comparing the Guru's actions or

the practices of the organization may be valid (atleast for her). so

no comments on that.

But the one above (physical appearance) is an odious reason for

putting down.

Amma's superior beauty is that she hides her divinity in the

commonplace. Ever seen her eyes when she looks at somebody for just a

second? They flash! and then they go "commonplace" again.

All I can say is that your friend has a fixed idea of where divinity

can be found (noble, distinguished-looking etc), and hence she is not

able to see it in Amma...... for what it is worth, I had similar ideas

too, till Amma came into my life and subtly fixed my paradigm of

finding divinity.

BTW, I would not be surprised if some of Amma's devotees worship the

dolls (made as they are of Amma-worn garments). I know some of them

place the dolls on the altar when they are not travelling with them.

Jai Ma!

May 8, 2005

, swastik108@a... wrote:

> In a message dated 5/8/2005 2:24:26 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

> kalipadma108 writes:

> Comments?

> I have seen people praying to images of living Gurus who they are disciples

> of during pujas. Many people give offerings to pictures of Sai Baba and I have

> seen things like this so I would have to say it isn't totally unheard of

> although perhaps less common.

>

> It made me think of the Roman temples they would build to the emporers and

> the Eyptian belief of the Pharoah as sun god with temples to him also.

>

> You mentioned that the devotees can buy the pancha murthis for "lots of

> bucks" the money factor involved in his teachings raises a lot of questions

for me.

>

Namaste,

In the local Hindu temple I visited yesterday there is a statue of Sai Baba of

Shirdi installed

similar to the way the deities were installed and seemed to be worshipped in the

same

way. I was a little surprised myself, because this is the first time I had seen

this.

However, this is not at all different from the practices surrounding catholic

saints.

As to the young woman who prefers the thin rich male guru over the chubby huggy

female

guru, this may well because she has been taught over her life to associate

feelings of

spirituality and mystery with whatever this male guru is offering.

We are all called to the divine differently. There's no need to judge that.

However, if you are concerned that she is being ripped off, you may wish to

express your

concerns so to clear your conscience...and then leave the adult alone. We have a

right to

our own choices. People get ripped off in the name of religion every day.

If however, you're just miffed that she's being judgemental about your choices

and you're

trying to sting her back in return...perhaps you'll want to find a way to stop

the cycle of

bickering before you lose a friend with whom you seem to have a lot in

common....in

function if not in form.

Blessings,

prainbow

May 8, 2005

It is valuable to move beyond the surface - that is, while your

friend may not see beyond the surface of her judgments of Amma, are

you experiencing judgments of her guru? Or, maybe it's just

unfamiliar, another way than you know...?

I have been listening to Deepak Chopra's Creating Affluence on CD

recently. I purchased the book long ago, and then began buying

copies for friends. In fact, I found it through amazon.com for 1

penny per copy. Of course, shipping costs were $3.49, but still! And

how funny that a book called Creating Affluence - Wealth

Consciousness in the Field of All Possibilities, would be going

for .01! It's perfect, actually.

Deepak -- also a student of Maharishi Mahesh Yogi -- says that money

is life energy, and must flow, like blood, or it clots and clogs. He

said that years ago, when the Maharishi was talking about a world

hunger project, someone piped up after listening to the

plans: "Where's all the money going to come from?" His

answer: "From where it is at the moment." I love that -- it means

dream and plan and bring it to life in the world. Or, like that book

by Marsha Sinetar, Do What You Love: The Money Will Follow.

I don't know anything about your friend's guru, but I agree with

Deepak Chopra, Marsha Sinetar, and the Maharishi about money. And

Amma certainly knows the value of money, or she wouldn't have

pledged $23M to tsunami relief, in addition to all the other causes

to which Amma tirelessly contributes. And in addition to Amma's

flashing eyes, her voice is mellifluous. I just looked that word up -

- I thought it meant "melodious," but it means "flowing with honey."

Perfect!

BTW does anyone know what the Maharishi Mahesh Yogi is doing these

days? How old is he? Sorry for my ignorance - he may even be dead

for all I know. Someone in my office -- a bankruptcy attorney, no

less -- was referring to him judgmentally as someone who bilks

people. That seems to be a common fear or belief. But on what is it

based re the Maharishi?

May 8, 2005

BTW does anyone know what the Maharishi Mahesh Yogi is doing these

days? How old is he? Sorry for my ignorance - he may even be dead

for all I know. Someone in my office -- a bankruptcy attorney, no

less -- was referring to him judgmentally as someone who bilks

people. That seems to be a common fear or belief. But on what is it

based re the Maharishi?

---If you want to know what Maharishi is doing you need to join the

Fairfield Life.

May 8, 2005

True teacher Guru

A true teacher or Guru ( self realized master ) will never collect

money for self inclined pleasures and comforts such is belief in ancient India

, there is a lot of scam artists charging hundreds if not thousands opening the

road to money flowing river of nirvana ,

that is not the purpose of True Self Realized Guru .

Both Amma's Ammachi and Sri Karunamayi ask for donations to help once in need ,

however they do not use the money for their own comforts . Shirdi was also know

to take money from devotees and instantly passing

the money to someone in need. I am very weary of Chopras million dollars homes

and totally overpriced health spa's . If that is

being judgmental then where is common sense ? .

regards, jp

May 8, 2005

>

> My question: Is this a usual procedure in Hinduism?

> I know that the ISKCON people sell statues of Swami

> Prabhupad for worship. I also believe the SYDA Yoga

> people make available statues of Swami Nityananda,

> suitable for performing puja upon. But Prabhupad and

> Nityananda have dropped their bodies. Is it normal to

> worship a murthi of one's spiritual preceptor while he

> is still alive?

>

Len:

This Sri Siva definitely has some power, I have studied some of his

teachings and they are probably among the most potent practices I

have come across. Also he visited Guruji's Amrita's temple in India

and seems to have a high regard for Guruji Amrita. I am not sure if

he is enlightened though and am somewhat disappointed by the recent

attempts to deify him as a great divine master/incarnation (he does

have an association with self help guru Wayne Dyer). Considering that

his following is not very wide and he has not been around for long,

making statues of him are definitely unusual in my opinion.

> Carrie points out that Ammachi's followers sell

> huggable Amma dolls for plenty of money, too. But the

> dolls aren't being worshipped (I don't think they are,

> anyway). Carrie is thinking that the Shri Siva murthi

> will be an investment, as well as a source of bhakti.

> And besides, she points out, Shri Siva is thin and

> distinguished-looking. She thinks Ammachi is fat and

> commonplace.

>

Ah! Pearls cast before swine are just wasted LOL. All the money from

Ammachi.org sales go fully towards charity, I cannot say the same for

others.

-yogaman

May 8, 2005

, "childofdevi"

<childofdevi> wrote:

> >

> > Carrie points out that Ammachi's followers sell

> > huggable Amma dolls for plenty of money, too. But the

> > dolls aren't being worshipped (I don't think they are,

> > anyway). Carrie is thinking that the Shri Siva murthi

> > will be an investment, as well as a source of bhakti.

> > And besides, she points out, Shri Siva is thin and

> > distinguished-looking. She thinks Ammachi is fat and

> > commonplace.

> >

>

> Ah! Pearls cast before swine are just wasted LOL. All the money

from

> Ammachi.org sales go fully towards charity, I cannot say the same

for

> others.

>

> -yogaman

Yes. I think people are hugging the Amma dolls, but who knows what

goes on behind closed doors

I think that the money flows through Amma's organization(s) to where

it is needed and intended to go is proof of the 'money as life

energy, like blood' idea. I am reminded of Gandhi's autobiography in

which he said there was always some miracle that came along and made

ends meet financially. Each month he would fear he would have to

close the ashram, and on his doorstep would appear the money to keep

it going from sources he had never known existed until they showed

up.

And that reminds me of George Bush Senior's campaign song - of

course, it had nothing to do with George Bush other than that he

used it -- and I think the songwriter may have asked him to stop

using it -- but as an affluent person, GB Sr. would understand this

philosophy, even if he was out of touch with common folk:

Bobby McFerrin - "Don't Worry, Be Happy"

Here's a little song I wrote

You might want to sing it note for note

Don't worry, be happy.

In every life we have some trouble

But when you worry you make it double

Don't worry, be happy.

Don't worry, be happy now.

Chorus:

Don't worry, be happy. Don't worry, be happy.

Ain't got no place to lay your head

Somebody came and took your bed

Don't worry, be happy.

The landlord say your rent is late

He may have to litigate

Don't worry, be happy.

Chorus:

(Look at me -- I'm happy. Don't worry, be happy.

Here I give you my phone number. When you worry, call me,

I make you happy. Don't worry, be happy.)

Ain't got no cash, ain't got no style

Ain't got no gal to make you smile

Don't worry, be happy.

'Cause when you worry your face will frown

And that will bring everybody down

Don't worry, be happy.

Chorus:

(Don't worry, don't worry, don't do it.

Be happy. Put a smile on your face.

Don't bring everybody down.

Don't worry. It will soon pass, whatever it is.

Don't worry, be happy.

I'm not worried, I'm happy...)."

May 8, 2005

--- swastik108 wrote:

>

> I have seen people praying to images of living Gurus

> who they are disciples

> of during pujas. Many people give offerings to

> pictures of Sai Baba and I have

> seen things like this so I would have to say it

> isn't totally unheard of

> although perhaps less common.

Okay. I have a small framed photo of Ammachi (my

Guru) on my altar. At the beginning of every puja, I

bow to Ganesha, to the Guru, and to the Ishtadevata.

But I have to admit to feeling a little queasy about

doing a full puja TO Amma. I even feel funny about

reciting the 108 holy names that someone decided were

appropriate to apply towards Ammachi. But then, I'm

an ignorant Westerner!

When I'm in Ammachi's presence, I'm fully aware that

she is manifesting all the power and grace of

Parashakti or of Brahman (especially when she's in

Devi Bhava mode!). But worshipping the symbol of a

living human (albeit the vehicle of a Mahatma)

seems... odd? slightly sacriligious? presumptuous?

> You mentioned that the devotees can buy the pancha

> murthis for "lots of

> bucks" the money factor involved in his teachings

> raises a lot of questions for me.

For me, too, Swastik. For me, too.

-- Len/ Kalipadma

Make your home page

http://www./r/hs

May 8, 2005

--- prainbow61 <paulie-rainbow wrote:

>

> In the local Hindu temple I visited yesterday there

> is a statue of Sai Baba of Shirdi installed

> similar to the way the deities were installed and

> seemed to be worshipped in the same

> way. I was a little surprised myself, because this

> is the first time I had seen this.

>

> However, this is not at all different from the

> practices surrounding catholic saints.

Again, it seems different to me when one is

worshipping (or invoking divine intercession) from

saints who are no longer in their bodies. Puja to

living saints, I'm less comfortable with.

> As to the young woman who prefers the thin rich male

> guru over the chubby huggy female

> guru, this may well because she has been taught over

> her life to associate feelings of

> spirituality and mystery with whatever this male

> guru is offering.

Yeah. She's also obsessed with personal weight loss,

and judges heaviness in other people as a character

flaw. (She even has difficulty relating spiritually

to the deva Ganesha because "he's so unattractive!")

> We are all called to the divine differently. There's

> no need to judge that.

>

> However, if you are concerned that she is being

> ripped off, you may wish to express your

> concerns so to clear your conscience...and then

> leave the adult alone. We have a right to

> our own choices. People get ripped off in the name

> of religion every day.

>

> If however, you're just miffed that she's being

> judgemental about your choices and you're

> trying to sting her back in return...

Maybe I'm jealous. I enjoy Shri Siva's presentations,

but I can't afford them. He's aiming at a rich

audience, and that's not me, alas.

> perhaps you'll

> want to find a way to stop the cycle of

> bickering before you lose a friend with whom you

> seem to have a lot in common....in

> function if not in form.

We're not at the bickering stage, yet. Have we a lot

in common? She's a coven-sister. I co-run a Wiccan

group, which (since I have input in what gets taught)

has "a strong flavor of curry." Carrie obviously

enjoys the Hindu references I bring to my version of

Western Neo-Paganism (except for that sloppy-looking

Ganesha, of course).

-- Len/ Kalipadma

May 9, 2005

, Len Rosenberg

<kalipadma108> wrote:

>

> Again, it seems different to me when one is

> worshipping (or invoking divine intercession) from

> saints who are no longer in their bodies. Puja to

> living saints, I'm less comfortable with.

I share your discomfort; it seems to me that in worshipping a living

being there may be extra potential for confusion on the part of the

ordinary worshipper.

I seem to recall that Sri Ramakrishna performed puja to his wife, so

there is some sort of precedent, at least for the extraordinary

worshipper who is not at all confused about the nature of the divine!

> [Len's coven-sister] even has difficulty relating spiritually

> to the deva Ganesha because "he's so unattractive!")

> [....] that sloppy-looking Ganesha, [....]

Hmmm. I'm trying to imagine what a toned and buff Ganesha (Gold's

Gym Ganesha?) would look like. I think this may be beyond me. At

least on a Monday morning. :-)

May 9, 2005

If I can find a program that will let me do it -- and I'm looking for

just such a program now -- I will create the image of which you

speak, taking Ganesha's head (and why not, didn't Shiva himself do

this?) and putting onto the body of a muscleman

, "msbauju" <msbauju> wrote:

> , Len Rosenberg

> <kalipadma108> wrote:

> >

> > Again, it seems different to me when one is

> > worshipping (or invoking divine intercession) from

> > saints who are no longer in their bodies. Puja to

> > living saints, I'm less comfortable with.

>

> I share your discomfort; it seems to me that in worshipping a

living

> being there may be extra potential for confusion on the part of the

> ordinary worshipper.

>

> I seem to recall that Sri Ramakrishna performed puja to his wife,

so

> there is some sort of precedent, at least for the extraordinary

> worshipper who is not at all confused about the nature of the

divine!

>

> > [Len's coven-sister] even has difficulty relating spiritually

> > to the deva Ganesha because "he's so unattractive!")

> > [....] that sloppy-looking Ganesha, [....]

>

> Hmmm. I'm trying to imagine what a toned and buff Ganesha (Gold's

> Gym Ganesha?) would look like. I think this may be beyond me. At

> least on a Monday morning. :-)

May 9, 2005

You're right; there's precedent both east and west for this!

Jesus' image comes west and gets blond hair, blue eyes, and very Anglo

features.

Ganesha gets a diet, gym membership, and a personal trainer. ;-)

Just think--given how much fun particular Western scholars had

psychoanalyzing the imagery of Ganesha's limp trunk, they would have a

field day with *this* transformation.

, "Mary Ann" <buttercookie61>

wrote:

> If I can find a program that will let me do it -- and I'm looking for

> just such a program now -- I will create the image of which you

> speak, taking Ganesha's head

!!!!!

> (and why not, didn't Shiva himself do

> this?)

!!!!

> and putting onto the body of a muscleman

>

> , "msbauju" <msbauju>

> > Hmmm. I'm trying to imagine what a toned and buff Ganesha (Gold's

> > Gym Ganesha?) would look like. I think this may be beyond me. At

> > least on a Monday morning. :-)

May 9, 2005

For me, the common sense would be that if the principles work for

creating affluence, which isn't just about making money, but about

developing a state of awareness and being, then anyone can utilize

those principles and put the results of that into practice however they

see fit.

, joanna pollner

<joannapollner> wrote:

> True teacher Guru

>

> A true teacher or Guru ( self realized master ) will never collect

> money for self inclined pleasures and comforts such is belief in

ancient India , there is a lot of scam artists charging hundreds if

not thousands opening the road to money flowing river of nirvana ,

> that is not the purpose of True Self Realized Guru .

>

> Both Amma's Ammachi and Sri Karunamayi ask for donations to help once

in need , however they do not use the money for their own comforts .

Shirdi was also know to take money from devotees and instantly passing

> the money to someone in need. I am very weary of Chopras million

dollars homes and totally overpriced health spa's . If that is

> being judgmental then where is common sense ? .

>

> regards, jp

May 9, 2005

I see no connection between cash, flow and heart value, or value in general, as

one single rib has more value to a starving family of six, than a whole

truckload of cows to a fat rancher. Money is a symbol. Nothing more. When

spirituality is equated into money then the person doing the equating is

following money. It's pretty simple really. No sadhu in the entire world is

willing to sell God or spirituality for fear of falling into the greatest

mistake of karma, and then having to figure it all out again. If money is your

God then say so. That goes for Sivababa, Maharishi, Chopra, and the others who

care more for cash in wallet than faith in God. It's really pretty sick.

-

Mary Ann

Monday, May 09, 2005 3:19 PM

Re: Statues of Gurus

For me, the common sense would be that if the principles work for

creating affluence, which isn't just about making money, but about

developing a state of awareness and being, then anyone can utilize

those principles and put the results of that into practice however they

see fit.

, joanna pollner

<joannapollner> wrote:

> True teacher Guru

>

> A true teacher or Guru ( self realized master ) will never collect

> money for self inclined pleasures and comforts such is belief in

ancient India , there is a lot of scam artists charging hundreds if

not thousands opening the road to money flowing river of nirvana ,

> that is not the purpose of True Self Realized Guru .

>

> Both Amma's Ammachi and Sri Karunamayi ask for donations to help once

in need , however they do not use the money for their own comforts .

Shirdi was also know to take money from devotees and instantly passing

> the money to someone in need. I am very weary of Chopras million

dollars homes and totally overpriced health spa's . If that is

> being judgmental then where is common sense ? .

>

> regards, jp

Links

/

b..

c..

May 9, 2005

Dear Eve

i absolutely agree with you , there is no

connection of cash and heart,

unfortunately todays eastern or western evangelists

seem to make it look like cash flow energy makes the

heart beat . I am not saying sway off the money all

together , however a spiritual teacher cashing in on

gizmo Om chantings certainly is cheap trick of the

trade . The bright site to this is that there are

also very genuine teachers out there with true

perspective and common sense on such things even as

money. Wealth is ok only if it is based on balanced

principle meaning sharing . Both Ammas teach that

quite simply and so does Shirdi Baba.

regards, jp

i am sorry if that will sound offending , but i really

dont understand how can some people just believe such

fake Gurus ?

Mail

Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour:

http://tour.mail./mailtour.html

May 9, 2005

What I have read and heard in Deepak Chopra's teachings (and that's

the closest I've come to the Maharishi's teachings, other than the

high school experience I related earlier) is that money is an

energy, and as you say, a symbol, but not a stagnant thing. As such,

it is possible to enter the current (currency) of that symbol --

which also correlates with electromagnetism, energy force/source,

etc. -- and manifest from the place we/God/dess manifest(s) from. We

do it all the time unconsciously, mostly repeating past patterns,

karma, etc. -- including family or personal patterns of poverty. The

idea from the teachings I am familiar with is that it is possible to

bring more consciousness into the process, and to flow better with

the unconscious, to manifest what we choose. The principles I have

read about/listened to make sense and are in accordance with yogic

and/or Vedic teachings, and physics.

I don't think there's an automatic connection between cash flow and

heart value. But you can choose to do whatever you want with your

affluence, whether it's money, or all the other wondrous things and

qualities the universe holds. Remember, as Ralph Waldo Emerson said:

Without a rich heart, wealth is an ugly beggar.

, "Eve__69" <eve__69@h...>

wrote:

> I see no connection between cash, flow and heart value, or value

in general, as one single rib has more value to a starving family of

six, than a whole truckload of cows to a fat rancher. Money is a

symbol. Nothing more. When spirituality is equated into money then

the person doing the equating is following money. It's pretty simple

really. No sadhu in the entire world is willing to sell God or

spirituality for fear of falling into the greatest mistake of karma,

and then having to figure it all out again. If money is your God

then say so. That goes for Sivababa, Maharishi, Chopra, and the

others who care more for cash in wallet than faith in God. It's

really pretty sick.

> -

> Mary Ann

>

> Monday, May 09, 2005 3:19 PM

> Re: Statues of Gurus

>

> For me, the common sense would be that if the principles work

for

> creating affluence, which isn't just about making money, but

about

> developing a state of awareness and being, then anyone can

utilize

> those principles and put the results of that into practice

however they

> see fit.

>

> , joanna pollner

> <joannapollner> wrote:

> > True teacher Guru

> >

> > A true teacher or Guru ( self realized master ) will never

collect

> > money for self inclined pleasures and comforts such is belief

in

> ancient India , there is a lot of scam artists charging

hundreds if

> not thousands opening the road to money flowing river of

nirvana ,

> > that is not the purpose of True Self Realized Guru .

> >

> > Both Amma's Ammachi and Sri Karunamayi ask for donations to

help once

> in need , however they do not use the money for their own

comforts .

> Shirdi was also know to take money from devotees and instantly

passing

> > the money to someone in need. I am very weary of Chopras

million

> dollars homes and totally overpriced health spa's . If that is

> > being judgmental then where is common sense ? .

> >

> > regards, jp

>

> -

-----------

> Links

>

> /

>

> b..

>

> c.. Terms

of Service.

>

May 9, 2005

That was a lot of verbaige for a simple truth. Call money what you want but

don't equate its acquisition with holiness. Don't ever make that mistake.

Look at it differently. We are here discussing the worship of gurus most of whom

were either lowly, deemed crazy by society, or poor. So instead by your logic

we should worship donald trump, and all the other rich people. How about the

Bush dynasty? Yada, you get the idea.

-

Mary Ann

Monday, May 09, 2005 7:15 PM