sex slaves in Asia, AND the world at large

January 12, 2005

Lili Masamura wrote: So, with this sort of all-pervasive,

oblivious, "no blaming" attitude towards the root cause of the

grotesquely burgeoning dynamic of sexual exploitation on the part

of the general public, the Madonnas and Britneys and the L'il Kims

of the world laugh all the way to the bank, and the pornographers

and pimps are free to ply their evil trade among an ever-growing

supply of ever-younger women and children who have been led to

believe by the media that being a "ho" or a porn star is perfectly

all right, and even glamourous! I mean, "Snoop Dogg" said so, so it

must be true! While all the "decent citizens" stand around not

blaming anyone, shaking their heads and tsk-tsking at how awful it

all is.

Your point taken, But still I disagree with your permises. This is

like the same attitude of some people have particuarly in certain

country : they covered their women even the voices of the women are

said to be "harm" to be heard aloud. Why? because they say, when

men hears woman's voice, that too can arouse their sexual urges. So

the problem is the women as far as they are concern and not with

the men. You dare not to look at our own weakness, weakness in our

system, we use scapegoat instead.

I still do not blame Britney Spears nor Madonna for what is

happening in the social circle. Those you mentions are all social

issues which have been existing for a long time. Madonna and

Britney Spears as I see, is just a tool being used by DEVI to

highlight the social issues. Those sex preparators dont just exist

over night. Somebody dont just wake up one day and decides to rape

another, so go to Thailand to seek child sex slave. Instead of

using another as a punch bag to hit your frustration, why not

really look into the social issues. It is said media partly to blame

for the rise in violence? But the violence such as rape is already

there. Perhaps it is more being featured because people are more

daring to come out and talk about it. To report about it. Do you

actually believe if we curb such entertainers like Britney Spears

and Madonna, things will improve. NO! I dont think so. There are

those who will try to exploit and use for their own advantage.

These entertainers are doing what they know best: to entertain. It

is us who get carried away and couldnt control our own action. That

is what we know best, always blaming on others for our own

weakness.

So that goes with my opinion, I do not blame just these

entertainers, I blame people [ myself included ] who have seen the

problems but are not doing enough. We just talk and argue all the

time but no action. we just know how to complain: yeah! this is bad,

yeah! this is horrible, but we have no solutions. We dont even want

to think about any solution because to think about it can be very

painful. To go out there and really do something about it takes a

lot of energy and time. Why should we waste on all these! Better sit

infront of our computer, go to eforum, tell the world about this

problem and let others take care of it. At least we can get the

credit : hey! you are good you know! really good.

January 12, 2005

You are correct about what you said about those who go

online and complain about the state of the world, but

do little to solve the problem. And it is also true

that rape and sexual exploitation existed long before

TV. And it is true that the responsibility for action

or non-action lies with the person themself. However.

If someone has been brought up parked in front of the

TV, then they will have only TV values. Therefore how

can they have a true sense of the result of their

actions? We are enjoined not to "blame" or to "make

someone feel guilty". Well, sometimes people SHOULD

feel guilty and ashamed! Madonna should feel guilty

and ashamed for profiting obscenely from her slutty

degrading "boy toy" image. Britney Spears should feel

guilty and ashamed for constantly lying to her young

public about being so pure and virginal when she was

in fact partying and screwing around, and for

glamourizing the "pimp" dynamic. All this is not the

same thing as blaming a woman for simply speaking and

supposedly "tempting men" with the sound of her voice.

These media women are deliberately exploiting

sexuality for their own profit, and they do not care

who gets hurt in the process, making them just as

culpable as the sleaziest pimp alive. The

pornographers and sexual predators are licking their

chops, because the more young women and men that

believe porn is "cool", (because Madonna said so) the

bigger the pool of victims they have to choose from.

Social attitudes towards women in certain countries

definitely has to change, no doubt about it. But this

is not the same thing as covert media programming for

profit, directed at young people. We have to wake up

and smell the coffee real real soon, and see where the

real evil is. The Aghori Master "Vimalananda" said

that three things were never intended for

commercialization: women, food, and knowledge, because

they represent the Mother, and how can you sell your

Mother? Quite easily, if present conditions are any

indication. Thus we have no cause to complain when

Devi suddenly decides to wipe us out. We show Her in a

million ways we do not place any value on Her, so why

should She then place any value on us?

Lilith M.

"Evil men know not what should be done or what should

not be done...they say 'This world has no truth, no

moral foundation, no God. There is no law of creation;

what is the cause of birth but lust?'

Firm in this belief, these ones of dead

souls...undertake their work of evil; they are the

enemies of this fair world, working for its

destruction."

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

> Lili Masamura wrote: So, with this sort of

> all-pervasive,

> oblivious, "no blaming" attitude towards the root

> cause of the

> grotesquely burgeoning dynamic of sexual

> exploitation on the part

> of the general public, the Madonnas and Britneys

> and the L'il Kims

> of the world laugh all the way to the bank, and the

> pornographers

> and pimps are free to ply their evil trade among an

> ever-growing

> supply of ever-younger women and children who have

> been led to

> believe by the media that being a "ho" or a porn

> star is perfectly

> all right, and even glamourous! I mean, "Snoop

> Dogg" said so, so it

> must be true! While all the "decent citizens" stand

> around not

> blaming anyone, shaking their heads and tsk-tsking

> at how awful it

> all is.

>

> Your point taken, But still I disagree with your

> permises. This is

> like the same attitude of some people have

> particuarly in certain

> country : they covered their women even the voices

> of the women are

> said to be "harm" to be heard aloud. Why? because

> they say, when

> men hears woman's voice, that too can arouse their

> sexual urges. So

> the problem is the women as far as they are concern

> and not with

> the men. You dare not to look at our own weakness,

> weakness in our

> system, we use scapegoat instead.

>

> I still do not blame Britney Spears nor Madonna for

> what is

> happening in the social circle. Those you mentions

> are all social

> issues which have been existing for a long time.

> Madonna and

> Britney Spears as I see, is just a tool being used

> by DEVI to

> highlight the social issues. Those sex preparators

> dont just exist

> over night. Somebody dont just wake up one day and

> decides to rape

> another, so go to Thailand to seek child sex slave.

> Instead of

> using another as a punch bag to hit your

> frustration, why not

> really look into the social issues. It is said media

> partly to blame

> for the rise in violence? But the violence such as

> rape is already

> there. Perhaps it is more being featured because

> people are more

> daring to come out and talk about it. To report

> about it. Do you

> actually believe if we curb such entertainers like

> Britney Spears

> and Madonna, things will improve. NO! I dont think

> so. There are

> those who will try to exploit and use for their own

> advantage.

> These entertainers are doing what they know best:

> to entertain. It

> is us who get carried away and couldnt control our

> own action. That

> is what we know best, always blaming on others for

> our own

> weakness.

>

> So that goes with my opinion, I do not blame just

> these

> entertainers, I blame people [ myself included ] who

> have seen the

> problems but are not doing enough. We just talk and

> argue all the

> time but no action. we just know how to complain:

> yeah! this is bad,

> yeah! this is horrible, but we have no solutions. We

> dont even want

> to think about any solution because to think about

> it can be very

> painful. To go out there and really do something

> about it takes a

> lot of energy and time. Why should we waste on all

> these! Better sit

> infront of our computer, go to eforum, tell the

> world about this

> problem and let others take care of it. At least we

> can get the

> credit : hey! you are good you know! really good.

>

January 12, 2005

Lili wrote : You are correct about what you said about those who go

online and complain about the state of the world, but do little to

solve the problem. And it is also true that rape and sexual

exploitation existed long before TV. And it is true that the

responsibility for action or non-action lies with the person

themself. However. If someone has been brought up parked in front of

the TV, then they will have only TV values. Therefore how can they

have a true sense of the result of their actions?

So should we say the TV stations are at fault then for keeping these

people hook on to them?

"We are enjoined not to "blame" or to "make someone feel guilty".

Well, sometimes people SHOULD feel guilty and ashamed! Madonna

should feel guilty and ashamed for profiting obscenely from her

slutty degrading "boy toy" image."

The point is they do not and they will not. That is the fact. The

true fact is that they are proud of what they have become. They are

the symbol of success per say. They have proven to the younger ones

that they have made it.

"Britney Spears should feel guilty and ashamed for constantly

lying to her young public about being so pure and virginal when she

was in fact partying and screwing around, and for glamourizing

the "pimp" dynamic."

The president of USA lies, the public knows about it and I doubt he

feel ashamed about it. So if the President don't, why should

Britney Spears. She is just protraying the true human nature,

because that is what she is just an ordinary human who have made it

into the big screen.

"All this is not the same thing as blaming a woman for simply

speaking and supposedly "tempting men" with the sound of her

voice."

Yes they are not the same. But the reality is that it is happening

at this moment.

"These media women are deliberately exploiting sexuality for

their own profit, and they do not care who gets hurt in the process,

making them just as culpable as the sleaziest pimp alive."

Isnt this what commercialisation is all about?. Why point only to

sexuality. Spiritualist use media too for their own benefit. People

are smart, they know how to make use of media. Media serve as what

they are meant to be : dissemination of information. How we

interprete and used these infromation is another issue.

"The pornographers and sexual predators are licking their chops,

because the more young women and men that believe porn is "cool",

(because Madonna said so) the bigger the pool of victims they have

to choose from."

You have clearly stated the fact here : these young women and man

are easily influence by popular icon like Madonna. What does this

tells us? Where is the weakness here. As I have said before, I see

Madonna or Britney Spears as tools used by DEVI to hightlight the

weakness in our social system. When I see madonna, I look for

massagae : okay what is SHE telling me here? Etc Instead of going

around condemning Madonna or Britney Spears, I look for lesson that

I can learn or something I can teach my younger one. This to me

leads to Self Awareness within us all. People talk about IQ's,

but there are different form of Intelligence, namely Emotional

Intelligence, Cultural Intelligence and a new concept I have just

learn is Spiritual Intelligence. These are rarely born but which you

can learn. And learning process does not only confine to institution

or specific parameters. We can use the so called "bad" value

and learn from it. Using these to strengthen our weakness.

"The Aghori Master "Vimalananda" said that three things were

never intended for commercialization: women, food, and knowledge,

because they represent the Mother, and how can you sell your Mother?"

But if the women allow themselves to be commercialised, what can you

say. Hey! Ive got to feed my kids, pay my bills. Are you going to do

it for me. If you cant and will not, who are you to stop me. As long

as there are people willing to see and pay for it, why not. Back to

the basic economic lesson: demand and supply.

I observe that you have quoted a lot from the Aghori seris. Yes! I

have read them but I have my doubts. Certain things dosen't make

sense to me. Books can be a good source of information but we must

be very careful and should not take in everything that is being

written there.

Okay time out, have to go out now : duty calls. I shall end it here

with regards to this thread of conversation.

Take care Lili, tomorrow is Poongal. I am tempted to say : Happy

Poongal but I shall exercise restrain for I believe everyday is a

Happy day if we want to.

January 13, 2005

Namaste,

Just want to say, I love Madonna. Always have. I think she's great.

Second topic: violence against women, sexual and otherwise. It's been going on

for all of

recorded history. It's a very big part of war, but it's also a harrowing part of

peace. It takes

place in societies that are quite liberal and in societies quite conservative.

Go to the RAWA

website and find out that in countries where women cannot move about without

being

covered from head to toe as though they are walking around in body bags they are

still

traumatized by rape and forced prostitution. My personal theory is that until we

find an

answer to end rape and domestic violence we will never find an end to war.

But that answer has NOTHING to do with what women are wearing. Burkas, body

bags,

booty hugging low rise jeans...it doesn't keep you safe. The answer is not about

stigmatizing women's wardrobes and women's sexuality.

Third topic: television and popular culture. Lots and lots of money, going to a

handful of

people. The folks you see in front of the camera are just there to keep you from

seeing the

real power that is behind it. But we all particpate. If you don't like

it....turn it off. Change

the channel. Give money to public television or Democracy Now! or LinkTV... or

better yet,

move to a large city and get yourself involved with community television and

produce the

things you want to see.

Two thirds of the U.S. economy is consumer spending. That's huge! It really does

make a

difference...so vote with your money.

But don't bother trying to censor what other people want to watch. Most of the

time it

won't work...but if it does, the money makers will just use it against you

eventually. Once

censorship becomes acceptable, what becomes censored will depend on who has the

power, not on any real objective standards.

Its good to express indignation, to clarify the things that really bother you,

but if you stop

there and don't get into action so that you can see your dreams out in the world

in front of

you you're doing yourself a disservice.

I'm against blaming celebrities the same way that I'm against having the details

of their

lives pass for news...it's all a smokescreen. Blaming or Glorifying...what's the

difference,

we're still trapped in the run around of pop culture, we're still TALKING about

celebrities,

instead of talking about the networks that promote them, instead of talking

about U.S. tax

dollars being used to buy off a journalist to promote White House policy.

....instead of writing to our congress representatives, instead of producing

local tv.

Action. We need action. And clarity, lumping all of these things together just

makes it all

muddy and frustrating. It doesn't clarify a path to change.

namaste,

pr

, "NMadasamy" <nmadasamy@s...> wrote:

>

> Lili wrote : You are correct about what you said about those who go

> online and complain about the state of the world, but do little to

> solve the problem. And it is also true that rape and sexual

> exploitation existed long before TV. And it is true that the

> responsibility for action or non-action lies with the person

> themself. However. If someone has been brought up parked in front of

> the TV, then they will have only TV values. Therefore how can they

> have a true sense of the result of their actions?

>

> So should we say the TV stations are at fault then for keeping these

> people hook on to them?

>

> "We are enjoined not to "blame" or to "make someone feel guilty".

> Well, sometimes people SHOULD feel guilty and ashamed! Madonna

> should feel guilty and ashamed for profiting obscenely from her

> slutty degrading "boy toy" image."

>

> The point is they do not and they will not. That is the fact. The

> true fact is that they are proud of what they have become. They are

> the symbol of success per say. They have proven to the younger ones

> that they have made it.

>

> "Britney Spears should feel guilty and ashamed for constantly

> lying to her young public about being so pure and virginal when she

> was in fact partying and screwing around, and for glamourizing

> the "pimp" dynamic."

>

> The president of USA lies, the public knows about it and I doubt he

> feel ashamed about it. So if the President don't, why should

> Britney Spears. She is just protraying the true human nature,

> because that is what she is just an ordinary human who have made it

> into the big screen.

>

> "All this is not the same thing as blaming a woman for simply

> speaking and supposedly "tempting men" with the sound of her

> voice."

>

> Yes they are not the same. But the reality is that it is happening

> at this moment.

>

> "These media women are deliberately exploiting sexuality for

> their own profit, and they do not care who gets hurt in the process,

> making them just as culpable as the sleaziest pimp alive."

>

> Isnt this what commercialisation is all about?. Why point only to

> sexuality. Spiritualist use media too for their own benefit. People

> are smart, they know how to make use of media. Media serve as what

> they are meant to be : dissemination of information. How we

> interprete and used these infromation is another issue.

>

> "The pornographers and sexual predators are licking their chops,

> because the more young women and men that believe porn is "cool",

> (because Madonna said so) the bigger the pool of victims they have

> to choose from."

>

> You have clearly stated the fact here : these young women and man

> are easily influence by popular icon like Madonna. What does this

> tells us? Where is the weakness here. As I have said before, I see

> Madonna or Britney Spears as tools used by DEVI to hightlight the

> weakness in our social system. When I see madonna, I look for

> massagae : okay what is SHE telling me here? Etc Instead of going

> around condemning Madonna or Britney Spears, I look for lesson that

> I can learn or something I can teach my younger one. This to me

> leads to Self Awareness within us all. People talk about IQ's,

> but there are different form of Intelligence, namely Emotional

> Intelligence, Cultural Intelligence and a new concept I have just

> learn is Spiritual Intelligence. These are rarely born but which you

> can learn. And learning process does not only confine to institution

> or specific parameters. We can use the so called "bad" value

> and learn from it. Using these to strengthen our weakness.

>

> "The Aghori Master "Vimalananda" said that three things were

> never intended for commercialization: women, food, and knowledge,

> because they represent the Mother, and how can you sell your Mother?"

>

> But if the women allow themselves to be commercialised, what can you

> say. Hey! Ive got to feed my kids, pay my bills. Are you going to do

> it for me. If you cant and will not, who are you to stop me. As long

> as there are people willing to see and pay for it, why not. Back to

> the basic economic lesson: demand and supply.

>

> I observe that you have quoted a lot from the Aghori seris. Yes! I

> have read them but I have my doubts. Certain things dosen't make

> sense to me. Books can be a good source of information but we must

> be very careful and should not take in everything that is being

> written there.

>

> Okay time out, have to go out now : duty calls. I shall end it here

> with regards to this thread of conversation.

>

> Take care Lili, tomorrow is Poongal. I am tempted to say : Happy

> Poongal but I shall exercise restrain for I believe everyday is a

> Happy day if we want to.

January 13, 2005

I appreciate this thread. A lot of bases got covered here.

About celebrities: Britney Spears was proud of supporting

George W. Bush (gleaned from Michael Moore's movie Farenheit

9/11). It's important to remember that just because someone

(whoever it is) is a celebrity does not mean that person is

capable of deep personal and political analysis, or capable of an

analysis we would agree with.

In Madonna's children's books (I took a look several months ago

online), she examines difficult feelings like jealousy and shows

that there are more things in common to create love and respect

instead of competition between girls, which is valuable work.

And no matter what anyone else thought, I appreciated Madonna

and Britney tongue-kissing on camera.

Mary Ann

, "prainbow61"

<paulie-rainbow@u...> wrote:

>

> Namaste,

>

> Just want to say, I love Madonna. Always have. I think she's

great.

>

> Second topic: violence against women, sexual and otherwise.

It's been going on for all of

> recorded history. It's a very big part of war, but it's also a

harrowing part of peace. It takes

> place in societies that are quite liberal and in societies quite

conservative. Go to the RAWA

> website and find out that in countries where women cannot

move about without being

> covered from head to toe as though they are walking around in

body bags they are still

> traumatized by rape and forced prostitution. My personal theory

is that until we find an

> answer to end rape and domestic violence we will never find

an end to war.

>

> But that answer has NOTHING to do with what women are

wearing. Burkas, body bags,

> booty hugging low rise jeans...it doesn't keep you safe. The

answer is not about

> stigmatizing women's wardrobes and women's sexuality.

>

> Third topic: television and popular culture. Lots and lots of

money, going to a handful of

> people. The folks you see in front of the camera are just there

to keep you from seeing the

> real power that is behind it. But we all particpate. If you don't

like it....turn it off. Change

> the channel. Give money to public television or Democracy

Now! or LinkTV... or better yet,

> move to a large city and get yourself involved with community

television and produce the

> things you want to see.

>

> Two thirds of the U.S. economy is consumer spending. That's

huge! It really does make a

> difference...so vote with your money.

>

> But don't bother trying to censor what other people want to

watch. Most of the time it

> won't work...but if it does, the money makers will just use it

against you eventually. Once

> censorship becomes acceptable, what becomes censored will

depend on who has the

> power, not on any real objective standards.

>

> Its good to express indignation, to clarify the things that really

bother you, but if you stop

> there and don't get into action so that you can see your dreams

out in the world in front of

> you you're doing yourself a disservice.

>

> I'm against blaming celebrities the same way that I'm against

having the details of their

> lives pass for news...it's all a smokescreen. Blaming or

Glorifying...what's the difference,

> we're still trapped in the run around of pop culture, we're still

TALKING about celebrities,

> instead of talking about the networks that promote them,

instead of talking about U.S. tax

> dollars being used to buy off a journalist to promote White

House policy.

>

> ...instead of writing to our congress representatives, instead of

producing local tv.

>

> Action. We need action. And clarity, lumping all of these things

together just makes it all

> muddy and frustrating. It doesn't clarify a path to change.

>

> namaste,

>

> pr

>

> , "NMadasamy"

<nmadasamy@s...> wrote:

> >

> > Lili wrote : You are correct about what you said about those

who go

> > online and complain about the state of the world, but do little

to

> > solve the problem. And it is also true that rape and sexual

> > exploitation existed long before TV. And it is true that the

> > responsibility for action or non-action lies with the person

> > themself. However. If someone has been brought up parked

in front of

> > the TV, then they will have only TV values. Therefore how can

they

> > have a true sense of the result of their actions?

> >

> > So should we say the TV stations are at fault then for keeping

these

> > people hook on to them?

> >

> > "We are enjoined not to "blame" or to "make someone feel

guilty".

> > Well, sometimes people SHOULD feel guilty and ashamed!

Madonna

> > should feel guilty and ashamed for profiting obscenely from

her

> > slutty degrading "boy toy" image."

> >

> > The point is they do not and they will not. That is the fact. The

> > true fact is that they are proud of what they have become.

They are

> > the symbol of success per say. They have proven to the

younger ones

> > that they have made it.

> >

> > "Britney Spears should feel guilty and ashamed for

constantly

> > lying to her young public about being so pure and virginal

when she

> > was in fact partying and screwing around, and for

glamourizing

> > the "pimp" dynamic."

> >

> > The president of USA lies, the public knows about it and I

doubt he

> > feel ashamed about it. So if the President don't, why should

> > Britney Spears. She is just protraying the true human nature,

> > because that is what she is just an ordinary human who

have made it

> > into the big screen.

> >

> > "All this is not the same thing as blaming a woman for simply

> > speaking and supposedly "tempting men" with the sound of

her

> > voice."

> >

> > Yes they are not the same. But the reality is that it is

happening

> > at this moment.

> >

> > "These media women are deliberately exploiting sexuality for

> > their own profit, and they do not care who gets hurt in the

process,

> > making them just as culpable as the sleaziest pimp alive."

> >

> > Isnt this what commercialisation is all about?. Why point only

to

> > sexuality. Spiritualist use media too for their own benefit.

People

> > are smart, they know how to make use of media. Media serve

as what

> > they are meant to be : dissemination of information. How we

> > interprete and used these infromation is another issue.

> >

> > "The pornographers and sexual predators are licking their

chops,

> > because the more young women and men that believe porn

is "cool",

> > (because Madonna said so) the bigger the pool of victims

they have

> > to choose from."

> >

> > You have clearly stated the fact here : these young women

and man

> > are easily influence by popular icon like Madonna. What does

this

> > tells us? Where is the weakness here. As I have said before,

I see

> > Madonna or Britney Spears as tools used by DEVI to

hightlight the

> > weakness in our social system. When I see madonna, I look

for

> > massagae : okay what is SHE telling me here? Etc Instead of

going

> > around condemning Madonna or Britney Spears, I look for

lesson that

> > I can learn or something I can teach my younger one. This to

me

> > leads to Self Awareness within us all. People talk about IQ's,

> > but there are different form of Intelligence, namely Emotional

> > Intelligence, Cultural Intelligence and a new concept I have

just

> > learn is Spiritual Intelligence. These are rarely born but which

you

> > can learn. And learning process does not only confine to

institution

> > or specific parameters. We can use the so called "bad" value

> > and learn from it. Using these to strengthen our weakness.

> >

> > "The Aghori Master "Vimalananda" said that three things

were

> > never intended for commercialization: women, food, and

knowledge,

> > because they represent the Mother, and how can you sell

your Mother?"

> >

> > But if the women allow themselves to be commercialised,

what can you

> > say. Hey! Ive got to feed my kids, pay my bills. Are you going

to do

> > it for me. If you cant and will not, who are you to stop me. As

long

> > as there are people willing to see and pay for it, why not.

Back to

> > the basic economic lesson: demand and supply.

> >

> > I observe that you have quoted a lot from the Aghori seris.

Yes! I

> > have read them but I have my doubts. Certain things dosen't

make

> > sense to me. Books can be a good source of information but

we must

> > be very careful and should not take in everything that is being

> > written there.

> >

> > Okay time out, have to go out now : duty calls. I shall end it

here

> > with regards to this thread of conversation.

> >

> > Take care Lili, tomorrow is Poongal. I am tempted to say :

Happy

> > Poongal but I shall exercise restrain for I believe everyday is

a

> > Happy day if we want to.

January 13, 2005

Yes, well, none of these replies surprise me at all.

They are simply a concrete demonstration of the exact

attitude I encounter over and over again, and a

glaring illustration of why humanity can never seem to

"get ahead" spiritually. We see only what is before us

and never probe any deeper, thus the social problems

that plague us not only do not get solved, they get a

firmer grip. There really IS no hope at all; it is

becoming more and more clear every day, that Devi is

getting ready to wash Her hands of humanity very

shortly, just wait and see... For the record, I am not

and never have been, a TV watcher. Whatever TV I see,

is dependent on me being around where one is on, and

if I have the option, I ask that it be turned off.

Once, a number of years ago,I caught a brief clip of

"Married with Children" and it was so unbelievably

stupid and puerile, I couldn't believe anyone with any

sort of intelligence at all could waste their time

watching it. Yet, tellingly, the show was popular for

many years. So, if this sort of thing is more

important to people than pursuing more worthwhile

activities with the limited time that we have, then it

is no mystery as to why the world is in its present

state, or why it will continue its slide into the

Ghora Yuga.

Lilith M.

--- prainbow61 <paulie-rainbow wrote:

>

> Namaste,

>

> Just want to say, I love Madonna. Always have. I

> think she's great.

>

> Second topic: violence against women, sexual and

> otherwise. It's been going on for all of

> recorded history. It's a very big part of war, but

> it's also a harrowing part of peace. It takes

> place in societies that are quite liberal and in

> societies quite conservative. Go to the RAWA

> website and find out that in countries where women

> cannot move about without being

> covered from head to toe as though they are walking

> around in body bags they are still

> traumatized by rape and forced prostitution. My

> personal theory is that until we find an

> answer to end rape and domestic violence we will

> never find an end to war.

>

> But that answer has NOTHING to do with what women

> are wearing. Burkas, body bags,

> booty hugging low rise jeans...it doesn't keep you

> safe. The answer is not about

> stigmatizing women's wardrobes and women's

> sexuality.

>

> Third topic: television and popular culture. Lots

> and lots of money, going to a handful of

> people. The folks you see in front of the camera are

> just there to keep you from seeing the

> real power that is behind it. But we all particpate.

> If you don't like it....turn it off. Change

> the channel. Give money to public television or

> Democracy Now! or LinkTV... or better yet,

> move to a large city and get yourself involved with

> community television and produce the

> things you want to see.

>

> Two thirds of the U.S. economy is consumer spending.

> That's huge! It really does make a

> difference...so vote with your money.

>

> But don't bother trying to censor what other people

> want to watch. Most of the time it

> won't work...but if it does, the money makers will

> just use it against you eventually. Once

> censorship becomes acceptable, what becomes censored

> will depend on who has the

> power, not on any real objective standards.

>

> Its good to express indignation, to clarify the

> things that really bother you, but if you stop

> there and don't get into action so that you can see

> your dreams out in the world in front of

> you you're doing yourself a disservice.

>

> I'm against blaming celebrities the same way that

> I'm against having the details of their

> lives pass for news...it's all a smokescreen.

> Blaming or Glorifying...what's the difference,

> we're still trapped in the run around of pop

> culture, we're still TALKING about celebrities,

> instead of talking about the networks that promote

> them, instead of talking about U.S. tax

> dollars being used to buy off a journalist to

> promote White House policy.

>

> ...instead of writing to our congress

> representatives, instead of producing local tv.

>

> Action. We need action. And clarity, lumping all of

> these things together just makes it all

> muddy and frustrating. It doesn't clarify a path to

> change.

>

> namaste,

>

> pr

>

> , "NMadasamy"

> <nmadasamy@s...> wrote:

> >

> > Lili wrote : You are correct about what you said

> about those who go

> > online and complain about the state of the world,

> but do little to

> > solve the problem. And it is also true that rape

> and sexual

> > exploitation existed long before TV. And it is

> true that the

> > responsibility for action or non-action lies with

> the person

> > themself. However. If someone has been brought up

> parked in front of

> > the TV, then they will have only TV values.

> Therefore how can they

> > have a true sense of the result of their actions?

> >

> > So should we say the TV stations are at fault then

> for keeping these

> > people hook on to them?

> >

> > "We are enjoined not to "blame" or to "make

> someone feel guilty".

> > Well, sometimes people SHOULD feel guilty and

> ashamed! Madonna

> > should feel guilty and ashamed for profiting

> obscenely from her

> > slutty degrading "boy toy" image."

> >

> > The point is they do not and they will not. That

> is the fact. The

> > true fact is that they are proud of what they have

> become. They are

> > the symbol of success per say. They have proven to

> the younger ones

> > that they have made it.

> >

> > "Britney Spears should feel guilty and ashamed for

> constantly

> > lying to her young public about being so pure and

> virginal when she

> > was in fact partying and screwing around, and for

> glamourizing

> > the "pimp" dynamic."

> >

> > The president of USA lies, the public knows about

> it and I doubt he

> > feel ashamed about it. So if the President don't,

> why should

> > Britney Spears. She is just protraying the true

> human nature,

> > because that is what she is just an ordinary human

> who have made it

> > into the big screen.

> >

> > "All this is not the same thing as blaming a woman

> for simply

> > speaking and supposedly "tempting men" with the

> sound of her

> > voice."

> >

> > Yes they are not the same. But the reality is that

> it is happening

> > at this moment.

> >

> > "These media women are deliberately exploiting

> sexuality for

> > their own profit, and they do not care who gets

> hurt in the process,

> > making them just as culpable as the sleaziest pimp

> alive."

> >

> > Isnt this what commercialisation is all about?.

> Why point only to

> > sexuality. Spiritualist use media too for their

> own benefit. People

> > are smart, they know how to make use of media.

> Media serve as what

> > they are meant to be : dissemination of

> information. How we

> > interprete and used these infromation is another

> issue.

> >

> > "The pornographers and sexual predators are

> licking their chops,

> > because the more young women and men that believe

> porn is "cool",

> > (because Madonna said so) the bigger the pool of

> victims they have

> > to choose from."

> >

> > You have clearly stated the fact here : these

> young women and man

> > are easily influence by popular icon like Madonna.

> What does this

> > tells us? Where is the weakness here. As I have

> said before, I see

> > Madonna or Britney Spears as tools used by DEVI to

> hightlight the

> > weakness in our social system. When I see madonna,

> I look for

> > massagae : okay what is SHE telling me here? Etc

> Instead of going

> > around condemning Madonna or Britney Spears, I

> look for lesson that

> > I can learn or something I can teach my younger

> one. This to me

> > leads to Self Awareness within us all. People talk

> about IQ's,

> > but there are different form of Intelligence,

> namely Emotional

> > Intelligence, Cultural Intelligence and a new

> concept I have just

>

=== message truncated ===

Mail - You care about security. So do we.

January 13, 2005

>My personal theory is that until we find an answer to end rape and

>domestic violence we will never find an end to war.

I agree, because they are war.

>But that answer has NOTHING to do with what women are wearing.

>Burkas, body bags, booty hugging low rise jeans...it doesn't keep

>you safe. The answer is not about stigmatizing women's wardrobes and

>women's sexuality.

I don't think Lili was saying this. At least for myself, what I

object to is the behavior-mod dimension of mass culture, amplified by

the deep cultural belief that women's worth is in their appearance

and their sexual use. It's not just a question of turning it off. The

rest of the world is still consuming these obsessions, and they

affect everyone.

Most of all, to protest is _not_ the same as censoring.

In any case, I see the compulsive (and compulsory in some circles,

such as mass teen culture) display in my country as the obverse side

of the burka. As Nawal el-Sadaawi says, Makeup is the veil of the

West. And dieting, anorexia, plastic surgery, because girls and women

hate their bodies as they are, for not fitting the fascion.

Max

--

Max Dashu

Suppressed Histories Archives

Global Women's History

http://www.suppressedhistories.net

January 13, 2005

--- prainbow61 <paulie-rainbow wrote:

>

> Namaste,

>

> Just want to say, I love Madonna. Always have. I

> think she's great.

###############################################

Her music is a matter of taste, I suppose. The very

fact that her music is popular with the masses is a

glaring indictment of its sheer mediocrity, from where

I stand. But one can hardly expect musical genius to

arise from a trailer park in Michigan, can one? What

she IS certainly good at is self-promotion for

personal material gain, that's for sure. I see her

rather as "Paris Hilton with brains". Two centuries

from now, people will still be listening to Mozart,

but Madonna will only be a mere footnote in a musical

history book (if that), one that may or may not get

published.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

>

> Second topic: violence against women, sexual and

> otherwise. It's been going on for all of

> recorded history. It's a very big part of war, but

> it's also a harrowing part of peace. It takes

> place in societies that are quite liberal and in

> societies quite conservative. Go to the RAWA

> website and find out that in countries where women

> cannot move about without being

> covered from head to toe as though they are walking

> around in body bags they are still

> traumatized by rape and forced prostitution. My

> personal theory is that until we find an

> answer to end rape and domestic violence we will

> never find an end to war.

###############################################

True enough. The way to end it is through smarts, as

has been the way of human beings since the evolution

of the human brain. But I see only tentative signs of

women developing any sort of smarts that will enable

them to make a concrete start, and it is a little late

now, as I see it. All I see, when I look at "pop

culture", is an image of "Woman" with nothing whatever

to offer but looks and a vagina. We idolize artificial

parodies of Woman, sex dollies with their own

life-support systems, grotesqueries like Paris Hilton

and Pamela Anderson, while overlooking women of

serious intelligence. You can be sure if either of

these got killed in a car accident tomorrow, it would

be all over the news, but when Susan Sontag bit the

dust, how many young women even knew who she was or

what she was known for? But that sure wouldn't be the

case with ol' Paris, now, would it? Her list of

genuine accomplishments to date is about three

sentences long (and I am being generous), and if by

some misfortune that car accident doesn't come about,

you can expect at most another three if she lives as

long as Susan Sontag.

###############################################

>

> But that answer has NOTHING to do with what women

> are wearing. Burkas, body bags,

> booty hugging low rise jeans...it doesn't keep you

> safe. The answer is not about

> stigmatizing women's wardrobes and women's

> sexuality.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Any woman of any intelligence whatever is perfectly

aware that how she dresses conveys a very clear signal

of intent. If she exposes a lot of skin, it is an

actual biological signal to the male of the species

that she desires male attention, sex and by extension,

impregnation. As Anton LaVey conveyed very clearly in

his book "The Satanic Witch", a woman's appearance is

a powerful magickal tool to mess with men's minds.

Every woman here has surely been somewhere where

another woman has shown up dressed in a completely

inappropriate manner to the occasion, and shared in

the hostile emotional reaction to such a stunt, like,

say, a woman showing up as a guest at a Catholic

wedding dressed in a red strapless lace-up

micro-minidress and stiletto heels, with a leopard

print purse. In cultures, where women are forced to

cover up completely, it is more about control and

power-over than sex, really, and rape is used as a

tool to subjugate and terrify women so that they

shouldn't get "uppity". People interested in exploring

this dynamic deeper should read an excellent book

"Nine Parts of Desire", a look at Muslim women by a

Western woman,Geraldine Brooks.

################################################

>

> Third topic: television and popular culture. Lots

> and lots of money, going to a handful of

> people. The folks you see in front of the camera are

> just there to keep you from seeing the

> real power that is behind it. But we all particpate.

> If you don't like it....turn it off. Change

> the channel. Give money to public television or

> Democracy Now! or LinkTV... or better yet,

> move to a large city and get yourself involved with

> community television and produce the

> things you want to see.

################################################

Judging by popular tastes, no one would watch

anything I produced...I would LOVE to do the computer

animated version of the "Mahabharata". And as I have

already stated, I do not watch TV at all. My partner

bought a DVD player, and now I watch more movies than

ever before in my life (maybe 10 or 15). On Sunday, we

watched Kurosawa's last collaboration with Toshiro

Mifune, "Red Beard". But that is IT.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

>

> Two thirds of the U.S. economy is consumer spending.

> That's huge! It really does make a

> difference...so vote with your money.

################################################

I do "vote with my money". I almost never buy

anything, and I own nothing that cost more than $1500

(my sewing machine).I do not own a car, a house, or

anything like that. All my clothes, jewelry,

accessories, kitchen gadgets, furniture, are

second-hand. Except my mini stereo system, which I

bought new over 10 years ago.I have all the CDs I will

ever need ("Jai Shiva" kirtan, "Sacred Chants of

Shiva", with the Shiva Manasa Puja on it,and the

"Shiva and Kali" Sahasranama by Bhaktimala).

#################################################

>

> But don't bother trying to censor what other people

> want to watch. Most of the time it

> won't work...but if it does, the money makers will

> just use it against you eventually. Once

> censorship becomes acceptable, what becomes censored

> will depend on who has the

> power, not on any real objective standards.

#############################################

One can only censor one's own self. We have been led

to believe by the system at large that happiness lies

in "things". But as was clearly demonstrated by the

huge power failure over a year ago at the end of

August, (Just as Mangala (Mars) approached so close,

don't forget) a huge chunk of those things will bring

no satisfaction anymore once the power goes out for

good. And I am firmly convinced, from all the portents

I see around me, that that day will come in my

lifetime.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

>

> Its good to express indignation, to clarify the

> things that really bother you, but if you stop

> there and don't get into action so that you can see

> your dreams out in the world in front of

> you you're doing yourself a disservice.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

"In this world there are two roads of perfection, as

i told the before, o prince without sin: Jnana Yoga,

the Path of Wisdom, and karma Yoga, the Path of

Action.

Not by refraining from action does man attain freedom

from action. Not by mere renunciation does he attain

supreme perfection.

For not even a moment can a man be without action.

Helplessly are all driven to action by the forces born

of nature.

He who withdraws from actions, but then ponders on

their pleasures in his heart, he is under a delusion

and is a false follower of the Path. But great is the

one who, free from attachment, and with a mind ruling

itself in harmony, works on the Path of Karma Yoga,

the Path of Consecrated Action.

Bhagavad-Gita, Ch3,v.3-7

#################################################

>

> I'm against blaming celebrities the same way that

> I'm against having the details of their

> lives pass for news...it's all a smokescreen.

> Blaming or Glorifying...what's the difference,

> we're still trapped in the run around of pop

> culture, we're still TALKING about celebrities,

> instead of talking about the networks that promote

> them, instead of talking about U.S. tax

> dollars being used to buy off a journalist to

> promote White House policy.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

It is thought in certain circles that the real

reason for 9-11 was to serve as a distraction to the

public from the Enron investigations, so egregious

were the violations committed by that body. As was

also the hoohah over the Clinton affair a media

distraction. Titillating revelations about blow jobs,

cigars and semen stains hogged the airwaves and

distracted the eyes and minds of the American public.

(I must mention here that I am a Canadian, BTW.) What

exactly was being distracted from is the job of the

American public to find out, but I doubt they will

like what they find!

##################################################

>

> ...instead of writing to our congress

> representatives, instead of producing local tv.

>

> Action. We need action. And clarity, lumping all of

> these things together just makes it all

> muddy and frustrating. It doesn't clarify a path to

> change.

#################################################

Well, action must be preceded by thought, else we

are liable to make rash errors of judgement. I agree

that it would be a step in the right direction if

there were more creativity of the right kind

demonstrated in the mass media, but that will never

happen until we dust off the ol' gray matter and put

it to work in new directions. Here, gender becomes

irrelevant, but it WOULD be nice to see more women

exerting themselves in this direction. I would be

happy to supply ideas; I have been told I am an

absolute WELLSPRING of cool ideas.

Lilith M.

>

> namaste,

>

> pr

>

> , "NMadasamy"

> <nmadasamy@s...> wrote:

> >

> > Lili wrote : You are correct about what you said

> about those who go

> > online and complain about the state of the world,

> but do little to

> > solve the problem. And it is also true that rape

> and sexual

> > exploitation existed long before TV. And it is

> true that the

> > responsibility for action or non-action lies with

> the person

> > themself. However. If someone has been brought up

> parked in front of

> > the TV, then they will have only TV values.

> Therefore how can they

> > have a true sense of the result of their actions?

> >

> > So should we say the TV stations are at fault then

> for keeping these

> > people hook on to them?

> >

> > "We are enjoined not to "blame" or to "make

> someone feel guilty".

> > Well, sometimes people SHOULD feel guilty and

> ashamed! Madonna

> > should feel guilty and ashamed for profiting

> obscenely from her

> > slutty degrading "boy toy" image."

> >

> > The point is they do not and they will not. That

> is the fact. The

> > true fact is that they are proud of what they have

> become. They are

> > the symbol of success per say. They have proven to

> the younger ones

> > that they have made it.

> >

> > "Britney Spears should feel guilty and ashamed for

> constantly

> > lying to her young public about being so pure and

> virginal when she

> > was in fact partying and screwing around, and for

> glamourizing

> > the "pimp" dynamic."

> >

> > The president of USA lies, the public knows about

> it and I doubt he

> > feel ashamed about it. So if the President don't,

> why should

> > Britney Spears. She is just protraying the true

> human nature,

> > because that is what she is just an ordinary human

> who have made it

> > into the big screen.

> >

> > "All this is not the same thing as blaming a woman

> for simply

> > speaking and supposedly "tempting men" with the

> sound of her

> > voice."

> >

> > Yes they are not the same. But the reality is that

> it is happening

> > at this moment.

> >

> > "These media women are deliberately exploiting

> sexuality for

> > their own profit, and they do not care who gets

> hurt in the process,

> > making them just as culpable as the sleaziest pimp

> alive."

> >

> > Isnt this what commercialisation is all about?.

> Why point only to

> > sexuality. Spiritualist use media too for their

> own benefit. People

> > are smart, they know how to make use of media.

> Media serve as what

> > they are meant to be : dissemination of

> information. How we

> > interprete and used these infromation is another

> issue.

> >

> > "The pornographers and sexual predators are

> licking their chops,

> > because the more young women and men that believe

> porn is "cool",

> > (because Madonna said so) the bigger the pool of

> victims they have

> > to choose from."

> >

> > You have clearly stated the fact here : these

> young women and man

> > are easily influence by popular icon like Madonna.

> What does this

> > tells us? Where is the weakness here. As I have

> said before, I see

> > Madonna or Britney Spears as tools used by DEVI to

> hightlight the

> > weakness in our social system. When I see madonna,

> I look for

> > massagae : okay what is SHE telling me here? Etc

> Instead of going

> > around condemning Madonna or Britney Spears, I

> look for lesson that

> > I can learn or something I can teach my younger

> one. This to me

> > leads to Self Awareness within us all. People talk

> about IQ's,

> > but there are different form of Intelligence,

> namely Emotional

> > Intelligence, Cultural Intelligence and a new

> concept I have just

>

=== message truncated ===

Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more.

http://info.mail./mail_250

January 13, 2005

In a message dated 1/13/2005 11:47:49 PM Eastern Standard Time,

paulie-rainbow writes:

But one can hardly expect musical genius to

> arise from a trailer park in Michigan, can one?

Namaste Lili,

I'm hoping that you did not intend for this to sound as mean spirited, biased

and class

concious as it does.

This was actually the only point in her argument that I had issues with. I

can speak for myself only, my family is basically uneducated manual laborers.

The only thing I was encouraged to do growing up was to stay out of prison and

be a slave to the money system. My family claimed Christianity, but practiced

no real spirituality.

Now I find myself a fanatic music student, learning tabla amongst other

things, also studying Indian languages and striving to perfect myself through

art.

All of this has come about through my devotion to Ma Kali. Spirituality is the

backbone and source of all my inspiration.

This is in sharp contrast to the rest of my family which by american

standards can be classed as "white trash" Certainly I am an exception and thank

Ma for

that!

Look at any of the great prophets from Christ to Ramakrishna and you will see

individuals who achieved godhead despite their simple upringings. Miracles

can happen.

With faith augmented by work all things are possible in this world.

BUT I do agree that people like Britney Spears, Paris Hilton and the like

feed into humanities negative trends. It makes it harder to break free, but it

can happen.

January 13, 2005

Lilith M.: Here, gender becomes irrelevant, but it WOULD be nice to

see more women exerting themselves in this direction. I would be

happy to supply ideas; I have been told I am an absolute WELLSPRING

of cool ideas.

I really had good laugh at this statement. Keep it up Lilith! Keep

it up! Okay I shall keep my mouth shut for a moment. I'm trying to

bahave myself today. Bhaskararaya's got my attention

for a moment. Hahhaaaaaaaa gosh!

January 13, 2005

namaste Max!

A pleasure to see you on the boards.

Actually, I am under the impression that our friend Lil was indeed saying this

because the

follow up was:

"

Any woman of any intelligence whatever is perfectly

aware that how she dresses conveys a very clear signal

of intent. If she exposes a lot of skin, it is an

actual biological signal to the male of the species

that she desires male attention, sex and by extension,

impregnation. As Anton LaVey conveyed very clearly in

his book "The Satanic Witch", a woman's appearance is

a powerful magickal tool to mess with men's minds.

Every woman here has surely been somewhere where

another woman has shown up dressed in a completely

inappropriate manner to the occasion, and shared in

the hostile emotional reaction to such a stunt, like,

say, a woman showing up as a guest at a Catholic

wedding dressed in a red strapless lace-up

micro-minidress and stiletto heels, with a leopard

print purse. In cultures, where women are forced to

cover up completely, it is more about control and

power-over than sex, really, and rape is used as a

tool to subjugate and terrify women so that they

shouldn't get "uppity". People interested in exploring

this dynamic deeper should read an excellent book

"Nine Parts of Desire", a look at Muslim women by a

Western woman,Geraldine Brooks.

"

Now, while I find that Lil smushes together a great deal of territory that I

feel is only

tangentially related, nonetheless what I see expressed is a blaming of the women

for the

alleged affects of the wardrobe.

First we have the interesting assumption that an outfit can "clearly convey

intent" which

any feminist knows is a vast oversimplification.

Then there is the (at least) culturally biased notion that exposing a lot of

skin is an

invitation to sexual attention. Something contradicted not only by personal

experience but

with a fun look at the Dani tribe of New Guinea where the men only wear penis

gourds and

the women only grass skirts but whose lives contain much less sex than you would

imagine.

http://www.pedropoint.com/dani.htm

After that in Lil's explanation there is the assertion that a woman's appearance

is "a

powerful magickal tool to mess with men's minds" an opinion to which I must

express

personal objection. My appearance may indeed be a powerful magikal tool, but

generally

I've got better things to do with my magikal tools than to mess with men's

minds.

Next we wander into the tangentially related territory of context, or rules of

context, with

the example of the classic "whore in church" situation, a Christian favorite, by

the way.

This is presented as a "universal" but rules of context is a subject that is

extremely broad.

Why not also talk about a fully covered, but brightly colorful woman at an

extremely

somber or formal affair? What about the men? Can we mention plaid golf pants

showing up

in the office? No, no, no! We are only talking about women being inappropriately

sexual

with their outfits, take those other nasty examples back to the closet!

Then this apparently non-Arab person starts talking about countries where hijab

is

enforced indicating that it is non-sexual. Oh really. Many devout Muslims of my

acquaintence feel that it is entirely sexual. Saudi writers call it the

Saudi-obsession-with-

women. But although I agree with you, Max, that any compulsive or compulsory

enforcement of a certain look for women is all related in some way, what really

irritates me

is the way this broad topic is tossed into the salad as simply a garnish for the

central

argument which appears to be that women simply ought to get appropriately

dressed,

according to the author's notions of appropriateness, or be thoroughly ashamed

of

themselves.

And don't make me go back and point out where "Lil" has actually made a case for

censorship.

The problem that I'm having with this thread is that it is very emotional but

not very

focussed. I really do not think that all of these things are related, but it

takes volumes to

sort them out properly.

Peace,

pr

, Max Dashu <maxdashu@l...> wrote:

> >My personal theory is that until we find an answer to end rape and

> >domestic violence we will never find an end to war.

>

> I agree, because they are war.

>

> >But that answer has NOTHING to do with what women are wearing.

> >Burkas, body bags, booty hugging low rise jeans...it doesn't keep

> >you safe. The answer is not about stigmatizing women's wardrobes and

> >women's sexuality.

>

> I don't think Lili was saying this. At least for myself, what I

> object to is the behavior-mod dimension of mass culture, amplified by

> the deep cultural belief that women's worth is in their appearance

> and their sexual use. It's not just a question of turning it off. The

> rest of the world is still consuming these obsessions, and they

> affect everyone.

>

> Most of all, to protest is _not_ the same as censoring.

>

> In any case, I see the compulsive (and compulsory in some circles,

> such as mass teen culture) display in my country as the obverse side

> of the burka. As Nawal el-Sadaawi says, Makeup is the veil of the

> West. And dieting, anorexia, plastic surgery, because girls and women

> hate their bodies as they are, for not fitting the fascion.

>

> Max

> --

> Max Dashu

> Suppressed Histories Archives

> Global Women's History

> http://www.suppressedhistories.net

>

January 13, 2005

, Lili Masamura <sephirah5> wrote:

>

> But one can hardly expect musical genius to

> arise from a trailer park in Michigan, can one?

Namaste Lili,

I'm hoping that you did not intend for this to sound as mean spirited, biased

and class

concious as it does.

History has shown that genius can arise from anyone and anywhere. This is the

blessing of

the Goddess that She shows up and surprises us from unexpected places.

Blessed be,

pr

January 14, 2005

Excellent point!

I also wanted to add that just because certain music appeals to

a lot of people does not make that music valueless by any

means.

This song comes to mind; no reflection on those holidays just

passed, but this song isn't about religious holidays. I did not

know before being inspired by this thread to research it that this

song wasn't written by Madonna. But she made it famous:

MADONNA LYRICS

Holiday

written by Curtis Hudson and Lisa Stevens

Holiday Celebrate

Chorus:

If we took a holiday

Took some time to celebrate

Just one day out of life

It would be, it would be so nice

Everybody spread the word

We're gonna have a celebration

All across the world

In every nation

It's time for the good times

Forget about the bad times, oh yeah

One day to come together

To release the pressure

We need a holiday

(chorus)

You can turn this world around

And bring back all of those happy days

Put your troubles down

It's time to celebrate

Let love shine

And we will find

A way to come together

And make things better

We need a holiday

(chorus)

Holiday Celebrate

(chorus)

Holiday Celebrate

Holiday, Celebration

Come together in every nation

Lyrics courtesy of:

http://www.lyricscafe.com/m/madonna/118.htm

, swastik108@a...

wrote:

> In a message dated 1/13/2005 11:47:49 PM Eastern Standard

Time,

> paulie-rainbow@u... writes:

> But one can hardly expect musical genius to

> > arise from a trailer park in Michigan, can one?

>

> Namaste Lili,

>

> I'm hoping that you did not intend for this to sound as mean

spirited, biased

> and class

> concious as it does.

> This was actually the only point in her argument that I had

issues with. I

> can speak for myself only, my family is basically uneducated

manual laborers.

> The only thing I was encouraged to do growing up was to stay

out of prison and

> be a slave to the money system. My family claimed Christianity,

but practiced

> no real spirituality.

>

> Now I find myself a fanatic music student, learning tabla

amongst other

> things, also studying Indian languages and striving to perfect

myself through art.

> All of this has come about through my devotion to Ma Kali.

Spirituality is the

> backbone and source of all my inspiration.

>

> This is in sharp contrast to the rest of my family which by

american

> standards can be classed as "white trash" Certainly I am an

exception and thank Ma for

> that!

>

> Look at any of the great prophets from Christ to Ramakrishna

and you will see

> individuals who achieved godhead despite their simple

upringings. Miracles

> can happen.

>

> With faith augmented by work all things are possible in this

world.

>

> BUT I do agree that people like Britney Spears, Paris Hilton

and the like

> feed into humanities negative trends. It makes it harder to

break free, but it

> can happen.

>

January 14, 2005

Namaste,

I think her "Like A Prayer" albumn was one of her best. The "Oh Father" tune and

video

really moved me, but also take a look at the lyrics to the title song:

Like A Prayer:

Written by: Madonna and Patrick Leonard

Life is a mystery, everyone must stand alone

I hear you call my name

And it feels like home

[Chorus]

When you call my name it's like a little prayer

I'm down on my knees, I wanna take you there

In the midnight hour I can feel your power

Just like a prayer you know I'll take you there

I hear your voice, it's like an angel sighing

I have no choice, I hear your voice

Feels like flying

I close my eyes, Oh God I think I'm falling

Out of the sky, I close my eyes

Heaven help me

[Chorus]

Like a child you whisper softly to me

You're in control just like a child

Now I'm dancing

It's like a dream, no end and no beginning

You're here with me, it's like a dream

Let the choir sing

[Chorus]

Just like a prayer, your voice can take me there

Just like a muse to me, you are a mystery

Just like a dream, you are not what you seem

Just like a prayer, no choice your voice can take me there

Just like a prayer, I'll take you there

It's like a dream to me

Blessings,

prainbow

, "Mary Ann" <buttercookie61> wrote:

>

> Excellent point!

>

> I also wanted to add that just because certain music appeals to

> a lot of people does not make that music valueless by any

> means.

>

> This song comes to mind; no reflection on those holidays just

> passed, but this song isn't about religious holidays. I did not

> know before being inspired by this thread to research it that this

> song wasn't written by Madonna. But she made it famous:

>

> MADONNA LYRICS

>

> Holiday

> written by Curtis Hudson and Lisa Stevens

>

> Holiday Celebrate

>

> Chorus:

> If we took a holiday

> Took some time to celebrate

> Just one day out of life

> It would be, it would be so nice

> Everybody spread the word

> We're gonna have a celebration

> All across the world

> In every nation

> It's time for the good times

> Forget about the bad times, oh yeah

> One day to come together

> To release the pressure

> We need a holiday

>

> (chorus)

>

> You can turn this world around

> And bring back all of those happy days

> Put your troubles down

> It's time to celebrate

> Let love shine

> And we will find

> A way to come together

> And make things better

> We need a holiday

>

> (chorus)

>

> Holiday Celebrate

>

> (chorus)

>

> Holiday Celebrate

> Holiday, Celebration

> Come together in every nation

>

> Lyrics courtesy of:

> http://www.lyricscafe.com/m/madonna/118.htm

>

> , swastik108@a...

> wrote:

> > In a message dated 1/13/2005 11:47:49 PM Eastern Standard

> Time,

> > paulie-rainbow@u... writes:

> > But one can hardly expect musical genius to

> > > arise from a trailer park in Michigan, can one?

> >

> > Namaste Lili,

> >

> > I'm hoping that you did not intend for this to sound as mean

> spirited, biased

> > and class

> > concious as it does.

> > This was actually the only point in her argument that I had

> issues with. I

> > can speak for myself only, my family is basically uneducated

> manual laborers.

> > The only thing I was encouraged to do growing up was to stay

> out of prison and

> > be a slave to the money system. My family claimed Christianity,

> but practiced

> > no real spirituality.

> >

> > Now I find myself a fanatic music student, learning tabla

> amongst other

> > things, also studying Indian languages and striving to perfect

> myself through art.

> > All of this has come about through my devotion to Ma Kali.

> Spirituality is the

> > backbone and source of all my inspiration.

> >

> > This is in sharp contrast to the rest of my family which by

> american

> > standards can be classed as "white trash" Certainly I am an

> exception and thank Ma for

> > that!

> >

> > Look at any of the great prophets from Christ to Ramakrishna

> and you will see

> > individuals who achieved godhead despite their simple

> upringings. Miracles

> > can happen.

> >

> > With faith augmented by work all things are possible in this

> world.

> >

> > BUT I do agree that people like Britney Spears, Paris Hilton

> and the like

> > feed into humanities negative trends. It makes it harder to

> break free, but it

> > can happen.

> >

January 14, 2005

Namaste Prainbow,

Thanks for writing out these lyrics. It brings back a lot of memories for

me. It's amazing how you can know every word to a song when you are very

young, and yet not really know what you are singing about at all. Know what

I mean? Thanks again;)

Blessings, Reese

>"prainbow61" <paulie-rainbow

>

> Re: sex slaves in Asia, AND the world at large

>Fri, 14 Jan 2005 14:50:17 -0000

>

>Namaste,

>

>I think her "Like A Prayer" albumn was one of her best. The "Oh Father"

>tune and video

>really moved me, but also take a look at the lyrics to the title song:

>

>Like A Prayer:

>

>Written by: Madonna and Patrick Leonard

>

>Life is a mystery, everyone must stand alone

>I hear you call my name

>And it feels like home

>

>[Chorus]

>

>When you call my name it's like a little prayer

>I'm down on my knees, I wanna take you there

>In the midnight hour I can feel your power

>Just like a prayer you know I'll take you there

>

>I hear your voice, it's like an angel sighing

>I have no choice, I hear your voice

>Feels like flying

>I close my eyes, Oh God I think I'm falling

>Out of the sky, I close my eyes

>Heaven help me

>

>[Chorus]

>

>Like a child you whisper softly to me

>You're in control just like a child

>Now I'm dancing

>It's like a dream, no end and no beginning

>You're here with me, it's like a dream

>Let the choir sing

>

>[Chorus]

>

>Just like a prayer, your voice can take me there

>Just like a muse to me, you are a mystery

>Just like a dream, you are not what you seem

>Just like a prayer, no choice your voice can take me there

>

>Just like a prayer, I'll take you there

>It's like a dream to me

>

>Blessings,

>

>prainbow

>

>, "Mary Ann" <buttercookie61>

>wrote:

> >

> > Excellent point!

> >

> > I also wanted to add that just because certain music appeals to

> > a lot of people does not make that music valueless by any

> > means.

> >

> > This song comes to mind; no reflection on those holidays just

> > passed, but this song isn't about religious holidays. I did not

> > know before being inspired by this thread to research it that this

> > song wasn't written by Madonna. But she made it famous:

> >

> > MADONNA LYRICS

> >

> > Holiday

> > written by Curtis Hudson and Lisa Stevens

> >

> > Holiday Celebrate

> >

> > Chorus:

> > If we took a holiday

> > Took some time to celebrate

> > Just one day out of life

> > It would be, it would be so nice

> > Everybody spread the word

> > We're gonna have a celebration

> > All across the world

> > In every nation

> > It's time for the good times

> > Forget about the bad times, oh yeah

> > One day to come together

> > To release the pressure

> > We need a holiday

> >

> > (chorus)

> >

> > You can turn this world around

> > And bring back all of those happy days

> > Put your troubles down

> > It's time to celebrate

> > Let love shine

> > And we will find

> > A way to come together

> > And make things better

> > We need a holiday

> >

> > (chorus)

> >

> > Holiday Celebrate

> >

> > (chorus)

> >

> > Holiday Celebrate

> > Holiday, Celebration

> > Come together in every nation

> >

> > Lyrics courtesy of:

> > http://www.lyricscafe.com/m/madonna/118.htm

> >

> > , swastik108@a...

> > wrote:

> > > In a message dated 1/13/2005 11:47:49 PM Eastern Standard

> > Time,

> > > paulie-rainbow@u... writes:

> > > But one can hardly expect musical genius to

> > > > arise from a trailer park in Michigan, can one?

> > >

> > > Namaste Lili,

> > >

> > > I'm hoping that you did not intend for this to sound as mean

> > spirited, biased

> > > and class

> > > concious as it does.

> > > This was actually the only point in her argument that I had

> > issues with. I

> > > can speak for myself only, my family is basically uneducated

> > manual laborers.

> > > The only thing I was encouraged to do growing up was to stay

> > out of prison and

> > > be a slave to the money system. My family claimed Christianity,

> > but practiced

> > > no real spirituality.

> > >

> > > Now I find myself a fanatic music student, learning tabla

> > amongst other

> > > things, also studying Indian languages and striving to perfect

> > myself through art.

> > > All of this has come about through my devotion to Ma Kali.

> > Spirituality is the

> > > backbone and source of all my inspiration.

> > >

> > > This is in sharp contrast to the rest of my family which by

> > american

> > > standards can be classed as "white trash" Certainly I am an

> > exception and thank Ma for

> > > that!

> > >

> > > Look at any of the great prophets from Christ to Ramakrishna

> > and you will see

> > > individuals who achieved godhead despite their simple

> > upringings. Miracles

> > > can happen.

> > >

> > > With faith augmented by work all things are possible in this

> > world.

> > >

> > > BUT I do agree that people like Britney Spears, Paris Hilton

> > and the like

> > > feed into humanities negative trends. It makes it harder to

> > break free, but it

> > > can happen.

> > >

>

January 14, 2005

Well, I am waiting...and waiting...and waiting...

Lilith M.

--- prainbow61 <paulie-rainbow wrote:

>

> , Lili Masamura

> <sephirah5> wrote:

> >

>

> > But one can hardly expect musical genius to

> > arise from a trailer park in Michigan, can one?

>

> Namaste Lili,

>

> I'm hoping that you did not intend for this to sound

> as mean spirited, biased and class

> concious as it does.

>

> History has shown that genius can arise from anyone

> and anywhere. This is the blessing of

> the Goddess that She shows up and surprises us from

> unexpected places.

>

> Blessed be,

>

> pr

>

The all-new My - Get yours free!

January 14, 2005

As much as Madonna and her origins may fascinate, it does stray a bit from the

group topic, does it not? please forgive me for saying so.

Lili Masamura <sephirah5 wrote:Well, I am waiting...and waiting...and

waiting...

Lilith M.

--- prainbow61 <paulie-rainbow wrote:

>

> , Lili Masamura

> <sephirah5> wrote:

> >

>

> > But one can hardly expect musical genius to

> > arise from a trailer park in Michigan, can one?

>

> Namaste Lili,

>

> I'm hoping that you did not intend for this to sound

> as mean spirited, biased and class

> concious as it does.

>

> History has shown that genius can arise from anyone

> and anywhere. This is the blessing of

> the Goddess that She shows up and surprises us from

> unexpected places.

>

> Blessed be,

>

> pr

>

The all-new My - Get yours free!

/

January 14, 2005

We all worship in our own ways, Kochu. The lyrics to Like a Prayer

are very evocative; it's really quite beautiful, and on topic, to my

understanding.

Mary Ann

, sankara menon <kochu1tz>

wrote:

> As much as Madonna and her origins may fascinate, it does stray a

bit from the group topic, does it not? please forgive me for saying

so.

>

> Lili Masamura <sephirah5> wrote:Well, I am waiting...and

waiting...and waiting...

> Lilith M.

> --- prainbow61 <paulie-rainbow@u...> wrote:

>

> >

> > , Lili Masamura

> > <sephirah5> wrote:

> > >

> >

> > > But one can hardly expect musical genius to

> > > arise from a trailer park in Michigan, can one?

> >

> > Namaste Lili,

> >

> > I'm hoping that you did not intend for this to sound

> > as mean spirited, biased and class

> > concious as it does.

> >

> > History has shown that genius can arise from anyone

> > and anywhere. This is the blessing of

> > the Goddess that She shows up and surprises us from

> > unexpected places.

> >

> > Blessed be,

> >

> > pr

> >

>

> The all-new My - Get yours free!

>

> Links

>

> /

>

> Terms of

Service.

>

January 14, 2005

I was just browsing through the "Group Conversation" portion of the

group website; the "Instant Goddess" discussion (eighth item) makes

an interesting supplement to the current Madonna discussion. If,

like me, you (members in general; I'm not specifically addressing

Kochu) weren't a member of the e-group at that time, you might want

to take a look:

http://shaktisadhana.50megs.com/Resource/Messageboardmain.html

> , sankara menon

> wrote:

> > As much as Madonna and her origins may fascinate [....]

January 14, 2005

Wow! Yes, a major THANK YOU to Nora, DB and the other moderators who

put meaningful discussions in a place where they can be referred to

by others and then added to in present and future.

Love to all,

Mary Ann

, "msbauju" <msbauju>

wrote:

>

> I was just browsing through the "Group Conversation" portion of

the

> group website; the "Instant Goddess" discussion (eighth item)

makes

> an interesting supplement to the current Madonna discussion. If,

> like me, you (members in general; I'm not specifically addressing

> Kochu) weren't a member of the e-group at that time, you might

want

> to take a look:

>

> http://shaktisadhana.50megs.com/Resource/Messageboardmain.html

>

> > , sankara menon

> <kochu1tz>

> > wrote:

> > > As much as Madonna and her origins may fascinate [....]

January 14, 2005

--- sankara menon <kochu1tz wrote:

> As much as Madonna and her origins may fascinate, it

> does stray a bit from the group topic, does it not?

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

Not at all. I am simply trying to point out one of the

greatest obstacles to spiritual enlightenment; our own

fixity in delusion. One cannot get ahead spiritually

while the delusions of the material world dominate

one's consciousness and knock the foundations of any

sort of a moral/dharmic structure out from under one's

feet.I am merely holding forth on the myriad ways in

which any sort of concrete spiritual progress is

subtly (and not-so-subtly)prevented by certain forces

around us, because when one is truly seized by the

Spirit, one then sees things for what they really are,

and thus one begins to unconsciously renounce interest

in participating in the baser aspects of existence.

This phenomenon is how one can tell one is making

progress, by the way! This sort of thing is not, of

course, in the greater interest of the asuric forces

of Big Business, and so they have a vested interest in

making sure people stay deluded by pandering

unceasingly to their animal appetites.

Many yatter on about how they are so interested in

Kali Ma, for instance, but She is the ultimate

Destroyer of Illusion. Those who prate on about

worshipping Her but are still merrily caught up

unchanged in their physical appetites have not even

come close to Her; they are wandering in the outer

court of the Temple, and the Inner Sanctum remains

shut. When Kali stepped into my life, the foundations

of it were dissolved, and my life as it was completely

went to pieces. I could no longer participate in the

illusion; I had an extremely lucrative body-piercing

business that went completely smash because after my

Kali worship started to bear fruit, the people that

were coming to me began to sicken me with their

rampant and total superficiality. It got to the point

I couldn't even maintain a semblance of politeness

anymore, because I no longer wanted to touch them,

talk to them, or accept anything from them, even if it

meant the loss of everything I had worked for up till

then. And it did.

Ramprasad Sen was quite right when he said, "Please

do not worship Kali if you wish to live as you have

lived before." How very true are these words; because

I myself know their truth from firsthand experience.

Jai Kali Ma!

Lilith M.

> please forgive me for saying so.

>

> Lili Masamura <sephirah5 wrote:Well, I am

> waiting...and waiting...and waiting...

> Lilith M.

> --- prainbow61 <paulie-rainbow wrote:

January 14, 2005

My dear Baiju:

You need not be apologetic. You can slam me if you want I will not be offendede.

I get het up only when India is slammed *wink*

msbauju <msbauju wrote:

I was just browsing through the "Group Conversation" portion of the group

website; the "Instant Goddess" discussion (eighth item) makes an interesting

supplement to the current Madonna discussion. If, like me, you (members in

general; I'm not specifically addressing Kochu) weren't a member of the e-group

at that time, you might want

to take a look:

http://shaktisadhana.50megs.com/Resource/Messageboardmain.html

> , sankara menon

> wrote:

> > As much as Madonna and her origins may fascinate [....]

/

January 14, 2005

???

Here I go being apologetic again, although I've just been told not to

be :-)

I didn't mean to make the message confusing (or to slam or shun

anyone). I was just trying to clarify the target audience for my

message. Suggesting that YOU to go look at the group web page would

be odd, nonsensical, and presumptuous, as you may well have taken

part in creating the web page content.

, sankara menon <kochu1tz>

wrote:

>

> You need not be apologetic. You can slam me if you want I will not

be offendede. I get het up only when India is slammed *wink*

>

> msbauju <msbauju> wrote:

>

> [....] (members in general; I'm not specifically addressing Kochu)

[if you] weren't a member of the e-group at that time, you might want

> to take a look:

>

> http://shaktisadhana.50megs.com/Resource/Messageboardmain.html

>

> > , sankara menon

> <kochu1tz>

> > wrote:

> > > As much as Madonna and her origins may fascinate [....]

January 14, 2005

C'mon baiju I did not mean u slammed me; what i meant was u can say anything and

I will not be offended *smile*.

msbauju <msbauju wrote:

???

Here I go being apologetic again, although I've just been told not to

be :-)

I didn't mean to make the message confusing (or to slam or shun

anyone). I was just trying to clarify the target audience for my

message. Suggesting that YOU to go look at the group web page would

be odd, nonsensical, and presumptuous, as you may well have taken

part in creating the web page content.

, sankara menon <kochu1tz>

wrote:

>

> You need not be apologetic. You can slam me if you want I will not

be offendede. I get het up only when India is slammed *wink*

>

> msbauju <msbauju> wrote:

>

> [....] (members in general; I'm not specifically addressing Kochu)

[if you] weren't a member of the e-group at that time, you might want

> to take a look:

>

> http://shaktisadhana.50megs.com/Resource/Messageboardmain.html

>

> > , sankara menon

> <kochu1tz>

> > wrote:

> > > As much as Madonna and her origins may fascinate [....]

/

The all-new My – Get yours free!

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