Guest guest Report post Posted February 8, 2004 OM aspirants Perhaps the final word on this discussion of siddhis could go to Swami Sivananda as expressed in the following poem taken from his short book, Vairagya Mala: MAYA'S VEIL At every step she puts a veil. Do not think that you will have to break Only one veil at the last stage of Sadhana. Maya puts countless veils: Attachment, cravings, desire, Likes and dislikes, infatuation, Pride, jealousy, hatred, greed, Sexual instincts, impulses and urges, The five Koshas, running after Siddhis, False contentment in Sadhana, Clouded understanding, grossness of intellect, Are all forms of Her veil. If you are a little careless and non-vigilant She puts veil after veil. You have to encounter countless veils, All of which have to be torn down. Persevere, plod on, march courageously. Be regular in your Sadhana. Practise eternal vigilance and introspection; Pray, do Japa, worship and meditate: Maya can never, never approach you. You will have the grace of the Lord; All the veils will be torn. Swami Sivananda views the Siddhis as yet another expression of Maya, a diversion from the Divine. So, accept Siddhis if they come to you but do not play with them and continue to use your Sadhana to move beyond them toward the Divine. OM Namah Sivaya Omprem Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted February 8, 2004 "Mayas evil" sound slike a very foolish statement to me. It reduces the wisdom of the east to ridiculous good/bad dualism just like what you find in christianity. Unfortunately many groups today, influence in part by western religions, have misinterpreted reality in this way, thinking, for example, that maya is "evil". Maya isn't even real, how can it be evil? Its only illusion. Nisarg --- omprem <omprem wrote: > OM aspirants > > Perhaps the final word on this discussion of siddhis > could go to > Swami Sivananda as expressed in the following poem > taken > from his short book, Vairagya Mala: > > > MAYA'S VEIL > > At every step she puts a veil. > Do not think that you will have to break > Only one veil at the last stage of Sadhana. > Maya puts countless veils: > Attachment, cravings, desire, > Likes and dislikes, infatuation, > Pride, jealousy, hatred, greed, > Sexual instincts, impulses and urges, > The five Koshas, running after Siddhis, > False contentment in Sadhana, > Clouded understanding, grossness of intellect, > Are all forms of Her veil. > If you are a little careless and non-vigilant > She puts veil after veil. > You have to encounter countless veils, > All of which have to be torn down. > Persevere, plod on, march courageously. > Be regular in your Sadhana. > Practise eternal vigilance and introspection; > Pray, do Japa, worship and meditate: > Maya can never, never approach you. > You will have the grace of the Lord; > All the veils will be torn. > > > Swami Sivananda views the Siddhis as yet another > expression > of Maya, a diversion from the Divine. So, accept > Siddhis if they > come to you but do not play with them and continue > to use your > Sadhana to move beyond them toward the Divine. > > OM Namah Sivaya > > Omprem > > Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online. http://taxes./filing.html Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted February 8, 2004 OM Swamiji If you prefer to consider Swami Sivananda as foolish or prone to making foolish statements that is your preogative. However, I should point out that Swami Sivananda is believed by millions to be one of the greatest, if not the greatest, Indian saint of the last century. Perhaps, you thought that the poem was written by me. Or, perhaps you have not heard of Swami Sivananda. Or, perhaps you simply did not understand what the poem was saying. It was saying that Maya locks one into dualism and keeps one estranged from the Divine and one's own Divine nature. Through Sadhana one eventually moves beyond Maya to rest in Oneness, to rest in one's own true identity - that of Brahman. You mention 'evil', but Swami Sivananda's poem does not mention 'evil'. It says quite clearly that Maya is a veiling force that obscures one's Divine nature. No emotional value was assigned to Maya. Nor should there be. If you would care to discuss the meaning of the poem as written instead of misusing it to veer off into your own agenda, we may all learn something. Perhaps you are somewhat dyslexic and transposed the 'v' and 'e' of 'veil' to arrive at 'evil'. As Swami Sivananda's poem says, "Practise eternal vigilance and introspection; Pray, do Japa, worship and meditate: Maya can never, never approach you." May I ask who your Guru is? Om Namah Sivaya Omprem , Swami Anand Nisarg <swamiji_nisarg> wrote: > > "Mayas evil" sound slike a very foolish statement to > me. It reduces the wisdom of the east to ridiculous > good/bad dualism just like what you find in > christianity. > > Unfortunately many groups today, influence in part by > western religions, have misinterpreted reality in this > way, thinking, for example, that maya is "evil". Maya > isn't even real, how can it be evil? Its only > illusion. > > Nisarg > > --- omprem <omprem> wrote: > > OM aspirants > > > > Perhaps the final word on this discussion of siddhis > > could go to > > Swami Sivananda as expressed in the following poem > > taken > > from his short book, Vairagya Mala: > > > > > > MAYA'S VEIL > > > > At every step she puts a veil. > > Do not think that you will have to break > > Only one veil at the last stage of Sadhana. > > Maya puts countless veils: > > Attachment, cravings, desire, > > Likes and dislikes, infatuation, > > Pride, jealousy, hatred, greed, > > Sexual instincts, impulses and urges, > > The five Koshas, running after Siddhis, > > False contentment in Sadhana, > > Clouded understanding, grossness of intellect, > > Are all forms of Her veil. > > If you are a little careless and non-vigilant > > She puts veil after veil. > > You have to encounter countless veils, > > All of which have to be torn down. > > Persevere, plod on, march courageously. > > Be regular in your Sadhana. > > Practise eternal vigilance and introspection; > > Pray, do Japa, worship and meditate: > > Maya can never, never approach you. > > You will have the grace of the Lord; > > All the veils will be torn. > > > > > > Swami Sivananda views the Siddhis as yet another > > expression > > of Maya, a diversion from the Divine. So, accept > > Siddhis if they > > come to you but do not play with them and continue > > to use your > > Sadhana to move beyond them toward the Divine. > > > > OM Namah Sivaya > > > > Omprem > > > > > > > > > Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online. > http://taxes./filing.html Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted February 8, 2004 I agree. The evil maya is the maya of advaita Vedanta which sees this world as an illusion, unreal. That is the anti-tantric view, for those who are afraid of the sense of touch, especially sexual touch. For Kashmiri Shaivites like Abhinavagupta and, contemporaneously, Swami Lakshmanjoo, this world is real, just as real as Shiva. Maya is a facet of Shiva's shakti/power. In terms of the modern physics described by David Bohm, maya/shakti is the explicate order and Shiva is the implicate order of one great holomovement. Sw. Prem Vedarthi Swami Anand Nisarg wrote: > > "Mayas evil" sound slike a very foolish statement to > me. It reduces the wisdom of the east to ridiculous > good/bad dualism just like what you find in > christianity. > > Unfortunately many groups today, influence in part by > western religions, have misinterpreted reality in this > way, thinking, for example, that maya is "evil". Maya > isn't even real, how can it be evil? Its only > illusion. > > Nisarg > > --- omprem <omprem wrote: > > OM aspirants > > > > Perhaps the final word on this discussion of siddhis > > could go to > > Swami Sivananda as expressed in the following poem > > taken > > from his short book, Vairagya Mala: > > > > > > MAYA'S VEIL > > > > At every step she puts a veil. > > Do not think that you will have to break > > Only one veil at the last stage of Sadhana. > > Maya puts countless veils: > > Attachment, cravings, desire, > > Likes and dislikes, infatuation, > > Pride, jealousy, hatred, greed, > > Sexual instincts, impulses and urges, > > The five Koshas, running after Siddhis, > > False contentment in Sadhana, > > Clouded understanding, grossness of intellect, > > Are all forms of Her veil. > > If you are a little careless and non-vigilant > > She puts veil after veil. > > You have to encounter countless veils, > > All of which have to be torn down. > > Persevere, plod on, march courageously. > > Be regular in your Sadhana. > > Practise eternal vigilance and introspection; > > Pray, do Japa, worship and meditate: > > Maya can never, never approach you. > > You will have the grace of the Lord; > > All the veils will be torn. > > > > > > Swami Sivananda views the Siddhis as yet another > > expression > > of Maya, a diversion from the Divine. So, accept > > Siddhis if they > > come to you but do not play with them and continue > > to use your > > Sadhana to move beyond them toward the Divine. > > > > OM Namah Sivaya > > > > Omprem > > > > > > > > > Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online. > http://taxes./filing.html > > > ------------------------------ > Links > > * > / > > * > > > * Terms of > Service. > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted February 8, 2004 Dear Omprem, Yes, maya is not evil, merely the veil that hides the Universal Selfís limitlessness and its powers of will (iccha), action (kriya) and knowledge (jnana). Thus is produced the limited self and its view of limited creation. Is this not all this just Shivaís play of concealment and revelation? Again, rigorous practice of sadhana is not the only way. For many, Shaktipat lifts the veil. Dear Sw. Nisarg, Have you found Sw. Sivanandaís poem a bit too serious, a bit too zealous? Sw. Prem Vedarthi omprem wrote: > OM Swamiji > > You mention 'evil', but Swami Sivananda's poem does not > mention 'evil'. It says quite clearly that Maya is a veiling force > that > obscures one's Divine nature. No emotional value was assigned > to Maya. Nor should there be. > > > > Om Namah Sivaya > > Omprem > > > > , Swami Anand Nisarg > <swamiji_nisarg> wrote: > > > > "Mayas evil" sound slike a very foolish statement to > > me. It reduces the wisdom of the east to ridiculous > > good/bad dualism just like what you find in > > christianity. > > > > Unfortunately many groups today, influence in part by > > western religions, have misinterpreted reality in this > > way, thinking, for example, that maya is "evil". Maya > > isn't even real, how can it be evil? Its only > > illusion. > > > > Nisarg > > > > --- omprem <omprem> wrote: > > > OM aspirants > > > > > > Perhaps the final word on this discussion of siddhis > > > could go to > > > Swami Sivananda as expressed in the following poem > > > taken > > > from his short book, Vairagya Mala: > > > > > > > > > MAYA'S VEIL > > > > > > At every step she puts a veil. > > > Do not think that you will have to break > > > Only one veil at the last stage of Sadhana. > > > Maya puts countless veils: > > > Attachment, cravings, desire, > > > Likes and dislikes, infatuation, > > > Pride, jealousy, hatred, greed, > > > Sexual instincts, impulses and urges, > > > The five Koshas, running after Siddhis, > > > False contentment in Sadhana, > > > Clouded understanding, grossness of intellect, > > > Are all forms of Her veil. > > > If you are a little careless and non-vigilant > > > She puts veil after veil. > > > You have to encounter countless veils, > > > All of which have to be torn down. > > > Persevere, plod on, march courageously. > > > Be regular in your Sadhana. > > > Practise eternal vigilance and introspection; > > > Pray, do Japa, worship and meditate: > > > Maya can never, never approach you. > > > You will have the grace of the Lord; > > > All the veils will be torn. > > > > > > > > > Swami Sivananda views the Siddhis as yet another > > > expression > > > of Maya, a diversion from the Divine. So, accept > > > Siddhis if they > > > come to you but do not play with them and continue > > > to use your > > > Sadhana to move beyond them toward the Divine. > > > > > > OM Namah Sivaya > > > > > > Omprem > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online. > > http://taxes./filing.html > > > ------------------------------ > Links > > * > / > > * > > > * Terms of > Service. > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted February 8, 2004 Beloved Omprem, It was a play on words. Evil for Veil. Sivananda may as well be saying it that way. Everyone thinks that the "saints" they happen to like is "loved by millions", consider Sai Baba or Osho, both loved and hated by millions. But to play along, which Sivananda are you referring to here? There have been many. Do you mean Swami Sivananda Radha, the female "swami" from Canada? Or Sri Swami Sivananda, her guru? Or some other Sivananda? Indeed, one should be regular in Sadhana, but to consider that Sadhana a struggle against the "world", or against human nature, rather than a discovery of human nature, then you are stuck in dualism. How can you use dualism to escape dualism? Love, Nisarg --- omprem <omprem wrote: > OM Swamiji > > If you prefer to consider Swami Sivananda as foolish > or prone to > making foolish statements that is your preogative. > > However, I should point out that Swami Sivananda is > believed by > millions to be one of the greatest, if not the > greatest, Indian saint > of the last century. > > Perhaps, you thought that the poem was written by > me. Or, > perhaps you have not heard of Swami Sivananda. > > Or, perhaps you simply did not understand what the > poem was > saying. It was saying that Maya locks one into > dualism and > keeps one estranged from the Divine and one's own > Divine > nature. Through Sadhana one eventually moves beyond > Maya to > rest in Oneness, to rest in one's own true identity > - that of > Brahman. > > You mention 'evil', but Swami Sivananda's poem does > not > mention 'evil'. It says quite clearly that Maya is > a veiling force that > obscures one's Divine nature. No emotional value was > assigned > to Maya. Nor should there be. > > If you would care to discuss the meaning of the poem > as written > instead of misusing it to veer off into your own > agenda, we may > all learn something. > > Perhaps you are somewhat dyslexic and transposed the > 'v' and > 'e' of 'veil' to arrive at 'evil'. > > As Swami Sivananda's poem says, "Practise eternal > vigilance > and introspection; Pray, do Japa, worship and > meditate: Maya > can never, never approach you." > > May I ask who your Guru is? > > Om Namah Sivaya > > Omprem > > > > , Swami Anand > Nisarg > <swamiji_nisarg> wrote: > > > > "Mayas evil" sound slike a very foolish statement > to > > me. It reduces the wisdom of the east to > ridiculous > > good/bad dualism just like what you find in > > christianity. > > > > Unfortunately many groups today, influence in part > by > > western religions, have misinterpreted reality in > this > > way, thinking, for example, that maya is "evil". > Maya > > isn't even real, how can it be evil? Its only > > illusion. > > > > Nisarg > > > > --- omprem <omprem> wrote: > > > OM aspirants > > > > > > Perhaps the final word on this discussion of > siddhis > > > could go to > > > Swami Sivananda as expressed in the following > poem > > > taken > > > from his short book, Vairagya Mala: > > > > > > > > > MAYA'S VEIL > > > > > > At every step she puts a veil. > > > Do not think that you will have to break > > > Only one veil at the last stage of Sadhana. > > > Maya puts countless veils: > > > Attachment, cravings, desire, > > > Likes and dislikes, infatuation, > > > Pride, jealousy, hatred, greed, > > > Sexual instincts, impulses and urges, > > > The five Koshas, running after Siddhis, > > > False contentment in Sadhana, > > > Clouded understanding, grossness of intellect, > > > Are all forms of Her veil. > > > If you are a little careless and non-vigilant > > > She puts veil after veil. > > > You have to encounter countless veils, > > > All of which have to be torn down. > > > Persevere, plod on, march courageously. > > > Be regular in your Sadhana. > > > Practise eternal vigilance and introspection; > > > Pray, do Japa, worship and meditate: > > > Maya can never, never approach you. > > > You will have the grace of the Lord; > > > All the veils will be torn. > > > > > > > > > Swami Sivananda views the Siddhis as yet another > > > expression > > > of Maya, a diversion from the Divine. So, accept > > > Siddhis if they > > > come to you but do not play with them and > continue > > > to use your > > > Sadhana to move beyond them toward the Divine. > > > > > > OM Namah Sivaya > > > > > > Omprem > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Finance: Get your refund fast by filing > online. > > http://taxes./filing.html > > Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online. http://taxes./filing.html Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted February 8, 2004 "It says quite clearly that Maya is a veiling force that obscures one's Divine nature. No emotional value was assigned to Maya. Nor should there be" "As Swami Sivananda's poem says, "Practise eternal vigilance and introspection; Pray, do Japa, worship and meditate: Maya can never, never approach you." I find this statement confusing ! DEVI herself being called the Mahamaya. How can we not have emotional value to HER? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted February 9, 2004 OM Swamiji I am, of course, referring to Sri Swami Sivananda of Rishikesh who, by the way, is not my Guru. I noticed that in referring to Swami Sivananda Radha you italicized 'swami'. Are you meaning to imply that she is not a swami? She was initiated into sannaysa by non other than Sri Swami Sivananda. Is there some cultural bias against female swamis creeping into your thought? It seems to me that it is you that playing with words. You say that if one says (as you incorrectly interprete the poem to be saying) that "Sadhana a struggle against the "world", or against human nature, rather than a discovery of human nature, then you are stuck in dualism." But the poem is not focussing on human nature. It is speaking about our Divine nature. If you wish to wallow in your human nature, then you are indeed stuck in dualism. But if you wish to know and identify fully with your Divine nature, then you are non-dual because you are Brahman. Of course, you will no longer have a human body, so if that is important to you, then stay focused on your human nature. OM Namah Sivaya Omprem , Swami Anand Nisarg <swamiji_nisarg> wrote: > > Beloved Omprem, > > It was a play on words. Evil for Veil. Sivananda may > as well be saying it that way. Everyone thinks that > the "saints" they happen to like is "loved by > millions", consider Sai Baba or Osho, both loved and > hated by millions. > But to play along, which Sivananda are you referring > to here? There have been many. Do you mean Swami > Sivananda Radha, the female "swami" from Canada? Or > Sri Swami Sivananda, her guru? Or some other > Sivananda? > > Indeed, one should be regular in Sadhana, but to > consider that Sadhana a struggle against the "world", > or against human nature, rather than a discovery of > human nature, then you are stuck in dualism. How can > you use dualism to escape dualism? > > Love, > Nisarg > > --- omprem <omprem> wrote: > > OM Swamiji > > > > If you prefer to consider Swami Sivananda as foolish > > or prone to > > making foolish statements that is your preogative. > > > > However, I should point out that Swami Sivananda is > > believed by > > millions to be one of the greatest, if not the > > greatest, Indian saint > > of the last century. > > > > Perhaps, you thought that the poem was written by > > me. Or, > > perhaps you have not heard of Swami Sivananda. > > > > Or, perhaps you simply did not understand what the > > poem was > > saying. It was saying that Maya locks one into > > dualism and > > keeps one estranged from the Divine and one's own > > Divine > > nature. Through Sadhana one eventually moves beyond > > Maya to > > rest in Oneness, to rest in one's own true identity > > - that of > > Brahman. > > > > You mention 'evil', but Swami Sivananda's poem does > > not > > mention 'evil'. It says quite clearly that Maya is > > a veiling force that > > obscures one's Divine nature. No emotional value was > > assigned > > to Maya. Nor should there be. > > > > If you would care to discuss the meaning of the poem > > as written > > instead of misusing it to veer off into your own > > agenda, we may > > all learn something. > > > > Perhaps you are somewhat dyslexic and transposed the > > 'v' and > > 'e' of 'veil' to arrive at 'evil'. > > > > As Swami Sivananda's poem says, "Practise eternal > > vigilance > > and introspection; Pray, do Japa, worship and > > meditate: Maya > > can never, never approach you." > > > > May I ask who your Guru is? > > > > Om Namah Sivaya > > > > Omprem > > > > > > > > , Swami Anand > > Nisarg > > <swamiji_nisarg> wrote: > > > > > > "Mayas evil" sound slike a very foolish statement > > to > > > me. It reduces the wisdom of the east to > > ridiculous > > > good/bad dualism just like what you find in > > > christianity. > > > > > > Unfortunately many groups today, influence in part > > by > > > western religions, have misinterpreted reality in > > this > > > way, thinking, for example, that maya is "evil". > > Maya > > > isn't even real, how can it be evil? Its only > > > illusion. > > > > > > Nisarg > > > > > > --- omprem <omprem> wrote: > > > > OM aspirants > > > > > > > > Perhaps the final word on this discussion of > > siddhis > > > > could go to > > > > Swami Sivananda as expressed in the following > > poem > > > > taken > > > > from his short book, Vairagya Mala: > > > > > > > > > > > > MAYA'S VEIL > > > > > > > > At every step she puts a veil. > > > > Do not think that you will have to break > > > > Only one veil at the last stage of Sadhana. > > > > Maya puts countless veils: > > > > Attachment, cravings, desire, > > > > Likes and dislikes, infatuation, > > > > Pride, jealousy, hatred, greed, > > > > Sexual instincts, impulses and urges, > > > > The five Koshas, running after Siddhis, > > > > False contentment in Sadhana, > > > > Clouded understanding, grossness of intellect, > > > > Are all forms of Her veil. > > > > If you are a little careless and non-vigilant > > > > She puts veil after veil. > > > > You have to encounter countless veils, > > > > All of which have to be torn down. > > > > Persevere, plod on, march courageously. > > > > Be regular in your Sadhana. > > > > Practise eternal vigilance and introspection; > > > > Pray, do Japa, worship and meditate: > > > > Maya can never, never approach you. > > > > You will have the grace of the Lord; > > > > All the veils will be torn. > > > > > > > > > > > > Swami Sivananda views the Siddhis as yet another > > > > expression > > > > of Maya, a diversion from the Divine. So, accept > > > > Siddhis if they > > > > come to you but do not play with them and > > continue > > > > to use your > > > > Sadhana to move beyond them toward the Divine. > > > > > > > > OM Namah Sivaya > > > > > > > > Omprem > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Finance: Get your refund fast by filing > > online. > > > http://taxes./filing.html > > > > > > > > > Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online. > http://taxes./filing.html Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted February 9, 2004 OM Swamiji I am, of course, referring to Swami Sivananda of Rishikesh, founder of the Divine Life Society, who, by the way, is not my Guru. In mentioning Swami Sivananda Radha you italicized 'swami'. Do you mean to imply that she was not an authentic swami? She was initiated into sannyasa by non other than Swami Sivananda of Rishikesh. Are you again challenging the wisdom of Swami Sivananda? Or, are you merely exhibiting cultural bias against female swamis? It seems to me that it is you that is playing with words. According to your misconstruct of Sivananda's poem you claim that to "consider that Sadhana a struggle against the "world", or against human nature, rather than a discovery of human nature, then you are stuck in dualism. How can you use dualism to escape dualism?" This dualism vs monism debate is a red herring and a load of rubbish that best left to those philosophy professors who have nothing better to do with their time than to exercise their debating skills. We may as well debate how angels can fit on the end of needle. Of course, Swami Sivananda never mentions 'human nature' in his poem. And it is debatable whether 'human nature' includes what you think it does or whether all the behaviours that Swami Sivananda mentions in his poem serve only to obscure one's full human nature. Swami Sivananda's poem is not focussing on your concept of human nature but rather on your Divine nature. Swami Sivananda is reminding you that you can wallow in your so-called human nature with its attractions and repulsions, ignorance and ego, or you can, through Sadhana, discover, know and identify with your Divine Nature, your true Self. Of course, when you are truly identified with your Divine Nature you enter the Turiya state of consciousness and usually leave the body in a few days as it is no longer needed to exhaust Karma. OM Namah Sivaya Omprem , Swami Anand Nisarg <swamiji_nisarg> wrote: > > Beloved Omprem, > > It was a play on words. Evil for Veil. Sivananda may > as well be saying it that way. Everyone thinks that > the "saints" they happen to like is "loved by > millions", consider Sai Baba or Osho, both loved and > hated by millions. > But to play along, which Sivananda are you referring > to here? There have been many. Do you mean Swami > Sivananda Radha, the female "swami" from Canada? Or > Sri Swami Sivananda, her guru? Or some other > Sivananda? > > Indeed, one should be regular in Sadhana, but to > consider that Sadhana a struggle against the "world", > or against human nature, rather than a discovery of > human nature, then you are stuck in dualism. How can > you use dualism to escape dualism? > > Love, > Nisarg > > --- omprem <omprem> wrote: > > OM Swamiji > > > > If you prefer to consider Swami Sivananda as foolish > > or prone to > > making foolish statements that is your preogative. > > > > However, I should point out that Swami Sivananda is > > believed by > > millions to be one of the greatest, if not the > > greatest, Indian saint > > of the last century. > > > > Perhaps, you thought that the poem was written by > > me. Or, > > perhaps you have not heard of Swami Sivananda. > > > > Or, perhaps you simply did not understand what the > > poem was > > saying. It was saying that Maya locks one into > > dualism and > > keeps one estranged from the Divine and one's own > > Divine > > nature. Through Sadhana one eventually moves beyond > > Maya to > > rest in Oneness, to rest in one's own true identity > > - that of > > Brahman. > > > > You mention 'evil', but Swami Sivananda's poem does > > not > > mention 'evil'. It says quite clearly that Maya is > > a veiling force that > > obscures one's Divine nature. No emotional value was > > assigned > > to Maya. Nor should there be. > > > > If you would care to discuss the meaning of the poem > > as written > > instead of misusing it to veer off into your own > > agenda, we may > > all learn something. > > > > Perhaps you are somewhat dyslexic and transposed the > > 'v' and > > 'e' of 'veil' to arrive at 'evil'. > > > > As Swami Sivananda's poem says, "Practise eternal > > vigilance > > and introspection; Pray, do Japa, worship and > > meditate: Maya > > can never, never approach you." > > > > May I ask who your Guru is? > > > > Om Namah Sivaya > > > > Omprem > > > > > > > > , Swami Anand > > Nisarg > > <swamiji_nisarg> wrote: > > > > > > "Mayas evil" sound slike a very foolish statement > > to > > > me. It reduces the wisdom of the east to > > ridiculous > > > good/bad dualism just like what you find in > > > christianity. > > > > > > Unfortunately many groups today, influence in part > > by > > > western religions, have misinterpreted reality in > > this > > > way, thinking, for example, that maya is "evil". > > Maya > > > isn't even real, how can it be evil? Its only > > > illusion. > > > > > > Nisarg > > > > > > --- omprem <omprem> wrote: > > > > OM aspirants > > > > > > > > Perhaps the final word on this discussion of > > siddhis > > > > could go to > > > > Swami Sivananda as expressed in the following > > poem > > > > taken > > > > from his short book, Vairagya Mala: > > > > > > > > > > > > MAYA'S VEIL > > > > > > > > At every step she puts a veil. > > > > Do not think that you will have to break > > > > Only one veil at the last stage of Sadhana. > > > > Maya puts countless veils: > > > > Attachment, cravings, desire, > > > > Likes and dislikes, infatuation, > > > > Pride, jealousy, hatred, greed, > > > > Sexual instincts, impulses and urges, > > > > The five Koshas, running after Siddhis, > > > > False contentment in Sadhana, > > > > Clouded understanding, grossness of intellect, > > > > Are all forms of Her veil. > > > > If you are a little careless and non-vigilant > > > > She puts veil after veil. > > > > You have to encounter countless veils, > > > > All of which have to be torn down. > > > > Persevere, plod on, march courageously. > > > > Be regular in your Sadhana. > > > > Practise eternal vigilance and introspection; > > > > Pray, do Japa, worship and meditate: > > > > Maya can never, never approach you. > > > > You will have the grace of the Lord; > > > > All the veils will be torn. > > > > > > > > > > > > Swami Sivananda views the Siddhis as yet another > > > > expression > > > > of Maya, a diversion from the Divine. So, accept > > > > Siddhis if they > > > > come to you but do not play with them and > > continue > > > > to use your > > > > Sadhana to move beyond them toward the Divine. > > > > > > > > OM Namah Sivaya > > > > > > > > Omprem > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Finance: Get your refund fast by filing > > online. > > > http://taxes./filing.html > > > > > > > > > Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online. > http://taxes./filing.html Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted February 9, 2004 OM James You claim that "rigorous practice of sadhana is not the only way. For many, Shaktipat lifts the veil." I don't know if you have experienced Shaktipat from a Guru, but I can assure that it is miraculous. I can also assure you that it only lasts on a conscious level as long as the Guru decides to manipulate your prana and direct your Kundalini. When he or she releases their prana from you, then that pale glimpse of Cosmic Consciousness that you experienced subsides because you are not strong enough or purified enough to maintain the conditions that give rise to it. That vision of the Divine fades quite quickly on a conscious level but continues to reverberate in your subconsious and indeed in every cell of your body and every aspect of your other Koshas. It continues to call you to perform Sadhana to strengthen and purify yourself, to turn your preoccupation with the physical world into devotion to the Divine. Those who experience Shaktipat 'spontaneously' do so only after a long period of intense yearning for the Divine and a willingness to not succumb to the attractions of Maya. Swami Sivananda says if we want to make the mind clean, sharp, subtle and pure so that we can become aware of our Divine nature, then we must "do Japa. Do selfless service. Pray to God from the bottom of your heart (Antarika). Have Satsang. Meditate. Read the Gita and the Upanishads. Live alone. Live in seclusion for six months. Take Sattvic food. Give up meat, fish, eggs, liquors, chillies, oil, black sugar, onions and garlic." If you are not serious and zealous about coming to the Divine, then you will not arrive there. Two of the biggest obstacles to being Self Realized are a lack of vigilance and wasting time. Enjoy your trip. We all arrive at the same place in the end although not necessarily at the same time. OM Namah Sivaya Omprem , James Rutke <jrutke@e...> wrote: > > > Dear Omprem, > > Yes, maya is not evil, merely the veil that hides the Universal Selfís > limitlessness and its powers of will (iccha), action (kriya) and > knowledge (jnana). Thus is produced the limited self and its view of > limited creation. Is this not all this just Shivaís play of concealment > and revelation? Again, rigorous practice of sadhana is not the only way. > For many, Shaktipat lifts the veil. > > Dear Sw. Nisarg, > > Have you found Sw. Sivanandaís poem a bit too serious, a bit too > zealous? > > Sw. Prem Vedarthi > > > omprem wrote: > > > OM Swamiji > > > > > You mention 'evil', but Swami Sivananda's poem does not > > mention 'evil'. It says quite clearly that Maya is a veiling force > > that > > obscures one's Divine nature. No emotional value was assigned > > to Maya. Nor should there be. > > > > > > > > Om Namah Sivaya > > > > Omprem > > > > > > > > , Swami Anand Nisarg > > <swamiji_nisarg> wrote: > > > > > > "Mayas evil" sound slike a very foolish statement to > > > me. It reduces the wisdom of the east to ridiculous > > > good/bad dualism just like what you find in > > > christianity. > > > > > > Unfortunately many groups today, influence in part by > > > western religions, have misinterpreted reality in this > > > way, thinking, for example, that maya is "evil". Maya > > > isn't even real, how can it be evil? Its only > > > illusion. > > > > > > Nisarg > > > > > > --- omprem <omprem> wrote: > > > > OM aspirants > > > > > > > > Perhaps the final word on this discussion of siddhis > > > > could go to > > > > Swami Sivananda as expressed in the following poem > > > > taken > > > > from his short book, Vairagya Mala: > > > > > > > > > > > > MAYA'S VEIL > > > > > > > > At every step she puts a veil. > > > > Do not think that you will have to break > > > > Only one veil at the last stage of Sadhana. > > > > Maya puts countless veils: > > > > Attachment, cravings, desire, > > > > Likes and dislikes, infatuation, > > > > Pride, jealousy, hatred, greed, > > > > Sexual instincts, impulses and urges, > > > > The five Koshas, running after Siddhis, > > > > False contentment in Sadhana, > > > > Clouded understanding, grossness of intellect, > > > > Are all forms of Her veil. > > > > If you are a little careless and non-vigilant > > > > She puts veil after veil. > > > > You have to encounter countless veils, > > > > All of which have to be torn down. > > > > Persevere, plod on, march courageously. > > > > Be regular in your Sadhana. > > > > Practise eternal vigilance and introspection; > > > > Pray, do Japa, worship and meditate: > > > > Maya can never, never approach you. > > > > You will have the grace of the Lord; > > > > All the veils will be torn. > > > > > > > > > > > > Swami Sivananda views the Siddhis as yet another > > > > expression > > > > of Maya, a diversion from the Divine. So, accept > > > > Siddhis if they > > > > come to you but do not play with them and continue > > > > to use your > > > > Sadhana to move beyond them toward the Divine. > > > > > > > > OM Namah Sivaya > > > > > > > > Omprem > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online. > > > http://taxes./filing.html > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Links > > > > * > > / > > > > * > > > > > > * Terms of > > Service. > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted February 9, 2004 OM Nora You will have emotional attachment to Devi as long as you do not truly know that you are Devi. As long as there is a distinction between you and Devi, then you have more Sadhana to do. As long as there is a distinction between you and Devi, you probably have an image of Her in your mind and, no doubt on your altar. But that icon or murti is not Devi. It serves to represent her, to provide a concrete focus for your love and adoration. Ot changes with time as you progress through your Sadhana. When you at last enter Cosmic Consciousness and become Self-Realized, forms drop away, you merge into the Infinite Ocean. Devi as Mahamaya perhps has two meanings. First, She is beyond the Maya of the eathly plane. As we move beyond the attractions, distractions and repulsions of the world, we enter into another plane of existence. Devi calls us there. Another meaning is that Devi is literally the Mahamaya, the Great Illusion. She is the final hurdle that we must overcome to enter into Cosmic Consciousness, Oneness with all, beyond space and time, beyond names and forms. Once we know ourselves as the Inifinite Divine, we have no need for the conventions of form or name. We just Are. Soham Tat Twam Asi Omprem , "N. Madasamy" <ashwini_puralasamy> wrote: > "It says quite clearly that Maya is a veiling force that > obscures one's Divine nature. No emotional value was assigned > to Maya. Nor should there be" > > "As Swami Sivananda's poem says, "Practise eternal vigilance > and introspection; Pray, do Japa, worship and meditate: Maya > can never, never approach you." > > I find this statement confusing ! DEVI herself being called the > Mahamaya. How can we not have emotional value to HER? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted February 9, 2004 > Dear Sw. Nisarg, > > Have you found Sw. Sivanandaís poem a bit too > serious, a bit too > zealous? > > Sw. Prem Vedarthi Beloved Vedarthi, While the poem was a bit too serious and a bit too zealous, that was not the point of my criticism. The point was that it was dualistic. It presents maya as a force that one must struggle and fight to try to overcome by setting one's self apart from the world. Nisarg Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online. http://taxes./filing.html Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted February 9, 2004 Beloved Omprem, Human nature is the only divinity there is. Enlightenment is found in the human, not out of it. People who speak flowery words about "being one with the divine" are really people who are scared or disgusted by the reality that they are human. The "wallowing" is not from being human, but from failing to do so. There are all these people in the world trying to be Gods or saints, who have never bothered to try to be good humans first. It cannot work that way. And dualism is not found when you are natural, and human. Dualism is found when you create this rift between the natural, the human and the divine. Love Nisarg "Be more human." -Osho --- omprem <omprem wrote: > OM Swamiji > > I am, of course, referring to Sri Swami Sivananda of > Rishikesh > who, by the way, is not my Guru. > > I noticed that in referring to Swami Sivananda Radha > you > italicized 'swami'. Are you meaning to imply that > she is not a > swami? She was initiated into sannaysa by non other > than Sri > Swami Sivananda. Is there some cultural bias against > female > swamis creeping into your thought? > > It seems to me that it is you that playing with > words. You say that > if one says (as you incorrectly interprete the poem > to be saying) > that "Sadhana a struggle against the "world", or > against human > nature, rather than a discovery of human nature, > then you are > stuck in dualism." But the poem is not focussing on > human > nature. It is speaking about our Divine nature. If > you wish to > wallow in your human nature, then you are indeed > stuck in > dualism. But if you wish to know and identify fully > with your Divine > nature, then you are non-dual because you are > Brahman. Of > course, you will no longer have a human body, so if > that is > important to you, then stay focused on your human > nature. > > OM Namah Sivaya > > Omprem > > > , Swami Anand > Nisarg > <swamiji_nisarg> wrote: > > > > Beloved Omprem, > > > > It was a play on words. Evil for Veil. Sivananda > may > > as well be saying it that way. Everyone thinks > that > > the "saints" they happen to like is "loved by > > millions", consider Sai Baba or Osho, both loved > and > > hated by millions. > > But to play along, which Sivananda are you > referring > > to here? There have been many. Do you mean Swami > > Sivananda Radha, the female "swami" from Canada? > Or > > Sri Swami Sivananda, her guru? Or some other > > Sivananda? > > > > Indeed, one should be regular in Sadhana, but to > > consider that Sadhana a struggle against the > "world", > > or against human nature, rather than a discovery > of > > human nature, then you are stuck in dualism. How > can > > you use dualism to escape dualism? > > > > Love, > > Nisarg > > > > --- omprem <omprem> wrote: > > > OM Swamiji > > > > > > If you prefer to consider Swami Sivananda as > foolish > > > or prone to > > > making foolish statements that is your > preogative. > > > > > > However, I should point out that Swami Sivananda > is > > > believed by > > > millions to be one of the greatest, if not the > > > greatest, Indian saint > > > of the last century. > > > > > > Perhaps, you thought that the poem was written > by > > > me. Or, > > > perhaps you have not heard of Swami Sivananda. > > > > > > Or, perhaps you simply did not understand what > the > > > poem was > > > saying. It was saying that Maya locks one into > > > dualism and > > > keeps one estranged from the Divine and one's > own > > > Divine > > > nature. Through Sadhana one eventually moves > beyond > > > Maya to > > > rest in Oneness, to rest in one's own true > identity > > > - that of > > > Brahman. > > > > > > You mention 'evil', but Swami Sivananda's poem > does > > > not > > > mention 'evil'. It says quite clearly that Maya > is > > > a veiling force that > > > obscures one's Divine nature. No emotional value > was > > > assigned > > > to Maya. Nor should there be. > > > > > > If you would care to discuss the meaning of the > poem > > > as written > > > instead of misusing it to veer off into your own > > > agenda, we may > > > all learn something. > > > > > > Perhaps you are somewhat dyslexic and transposed > the > > > 'v' and > > > 'e' of 'veil' to arrive at 'evil'. > > > > > > As Swami Sivananda's poem says, "Practise > eternal > > > vigilance > > > and introspection; Pray, do Japa, worship and > > > meditate: Maya > > > can never, never approach you." > > > > > > May I ask who your Guru is? > > > > > > Om Namah Sivaya > > > > > > Omprem > > > > > > > > > > > > , Swami > Anand > > > Nisarg > > > <swamiji_nisarg> wrote: > > > > > > > > "Mayas evil" sound slike a very foolish > statement > > > to > > > > me. It reduces the wisdom of the east to > > > ridiculous > > > > good/bad dualism just like what you find in > > > > christianity. > > > > > > > > Unfortunately many groups today, influence in > part > > > by > > > > western religions, have misinterpreted reality > in > > > this > > > > way, thinking, for example, that maya is > "evil". > > > Maya > > > > isn't even real, how can it be evil? Its only > > > > illusion. > > > > > > > > Nisarg > > > > > > > > --- omprem <omprem> wrote: > > > > > OM aspirants > > > > > > > > > > Perhaps the final word on this discussion of > > > siddhis > > > > > could go to > > > > > Swami Sivananda as expressed in the > following > > > poem > > > > > taken > > > > > from his short book, Vairagya Mala: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > MAYA'S VEIL > > > > > > > > > > At every step she puts a veil. > > > > > Do not think that you will have to break > > > > > Only one veil at the last stage of Sadhana. > > > > > Maya puts countless veils: > > > > > Attachment, cravings, desire, > > > > > Likes and dislikes, infatuation, > === message truncated === Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online. http://taxes./filing.html Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted February 9, 2004 omprem wrote: > OM James > > You claim that "rigorous practice of sadhana is not the only way. > For many, Shaktipat lifts the veil." > > I don't know if you have experienced Shaktipat from a Guru, but I > can assure that it is miraculous. I can also assure you that it > only lasts on a conscious level as long as the Guru decides to > manipulate your prana and direct your Kundalini. When he or > she releases their prana from you, then that pale glimpse of > Cosmic Consciousness that you experienced subsides > because you are not strong enough or purified enough to > maintain the conditions that give rise to it. Dear Omprem, I have experienced Shaktipat from three Indian gurus. The first time, at Dakshinkali in Nepal in 1974, I was taken quite by surprise. As I did not know Nepali at the time, I cannot tell you the yogin's name. The expereince brought my prana into a state of pratibha which in turn bloomed into a poem. Reading that poem over the years has renewed the experience. So I do not feel that the guru has released his prana from me. The second experience of Shaktipat was given to me by Swami Muktananda in Santa Monica in 1991. The impact hit in a matter of weeks and radically changed my life. The effect has stayed with me over the years growing more and more subtle. At first, every time the planet Mercury went retrograde, I did a retreat. Of late, it does not matter if the planet is retrograde or direct and the difference between meditation and non-meditation has vanished. The third expereince was with Bhagavan Shree Rajneesh in 1983 in Rajneeshpuram. That experience was prophetic of events that occured twelve years later when my partner Ma Anurag Vajra passed into the body of light. I have never felt the force of that Shaktipat leave me any more than I feel bereft of the siddha presence of my beloved Shakti. There are gurus whose prana never subsides because the gift of it reveals its effortless presence. This has also been the case with the many Tibetan gurus from whom I have received similar experiences in the form of the Pointing Out Instruction of the Kagyu school and Direct Introduction in the Nyingma dzogchen school. > That vision of the > Divine fades quite quickly on a conscious level but continues to > reverberate in your subconsious and indeed in every cell of your > body and every aspect of your other Koshas. It continues to call > you to perform Sadhana to strengthen and purify yourself, to turn > your preoccupation with the physical world into devotion to the > Divine. Osho's message was Celebrate! and so I dropped the books and left the ways of logic for the way of prema. For the Tibetan gurus, I not only did extensive sadhana practice with mandalas of four to sixty-four deities, but also translated sadhanas for tham and for my fellow pupils. > > > > > Enjoy your trip. We all arrive at the same place in the end > although not necessarily at the same time. > I thank you OMPrem for your caring and for your good advice. It is an honor to know you and I look forward to many stimulating conversations in the future. If I may hold your attention a bit longer, here is the poem I mentioned earlier. Kali Eye Into the new green of a grotto, down rock steps spilling spring melt, I walk telling the beads of a bone rosary. A yogin smiles at me and says: Hare Ram. I smile and reply: Hare Ram. In Saturday morning air reeking red like a battlefield, the calm of the crowd of people and the quiet of the animals, throats ready to be cut, bespeak an insight into the wisdom of giving to Mother Kali return of the blood taken for birth. As I come back up, clicking my yellowed mala, the yogin sits fierce in his samadhi and, although the sky is leaden, a glint of light shoots from his eye and pierces my heart. I feel how helpless I am, how like a child. Dakshinkali, Nepal, 1974 Sw. Prem Vedarthi > > > > > , James Rutke > <jrutke@e...> wrote: > > > > > > Dear Omprem, > > > > Yes, maya is not evil, merely the veil that hides the Universal > Selfís > > limitlessness and its powers of will (iccha), action (kriya) and > > knowledge (jnana). Thus is produced the limited self and its > view of > > limited creation. Is this not all this just Shivaís play of > concealment > > and revelation? Again, rigorous practice of sadhana is not the > only way. > > For many, Shaktipat lifts the veil. > > > > Dear Sw. Nisarg, > > > > Have you found Sw. Sivanandaís poem a bit too serious, a bit > too > > zealous? > > > > Sw. Prem Vedarthi > > > > > > omprem wrote: > > > > > OM Swamiji > > > > > > > > You mention 'evil', but Swami Sivananda's poem does not > > > mention 'evil'. It says quite clearly that Maya is a veiling > force > > > that > > > obscures one's Divine nature. No emotional value was > assigned > > > to Maya. Nor should there be. > > > > > > > > > > > > Om Namah Sivaya > > > > > > Omprem > > > > > > > > > > > > , Swami Anand > Nisarg > > > <swamiji_nisarg> wrote: > > > > > > > > "Mayas evil" sound slike a very foolish statement to > > > > me. It reduces the wisdom of the east to ridiculous > > > > good/bad dualism just like what you find in > > > > christianity. > > > > > > > > Unfortunately many groups today, influence in part by > > > > western religions, have misinterpreted reality in this > > > > way, thinking, for example, that maya is "evil". Maya > > > > isn't even real, how can it be evil? Its only > > > > illusion. > > > > > > > > Nisarg > > > > > > > > --- omprem <omprem> wrote: > > > > > OM aspirants > > > > > > > > > > Perhaps the final word on this discussion of siddhis > > > > > could go to > > > > > Swami Sivananda as expressed in the following poem > > > > > taken > > > > > from his short book, Vairagya Mala: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > MAYA'S VEIL > > > > > > > > > > At every step she puts a veil. > > > > > Do not think that you will have to break > > > > > Only one veil at the last stage of Sadhana. > > > > > Maya puts countless veils: > > > > > Attachment, cravings, desire, > > > > > Likes and dislikes, infatuation, > > > > > Pride, jealousy, hatred, greed, > > > > > Sexual instincts, impulses and urges, > > > > > The five Koshas, running after Siddhis, > > > > > False contentment in Sadhana, > > > > > Clouded understanding, grossness of intellect, > > > > > Are all forms of Her veil. > > > > > If you are a little careless and non-vigilant > > > > > She puts veil after veil. > > > > > You have to encounter countless veils, > > > > > All of which have to be torn down. > > > > > Persevere, plod on, march courageously. > > > > > Be regular in your Sadhana. > > > > > Practise eternal vigilance and introspection; > > > > > Pray, do Japa, worship and meditate: > > > > > Maya can never, never approach you. > > > > > You will have the grace of the Lord; > > > > > All the veils will be torn. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Swami Sivananda views the Siddhis as yet another > > > > > expression > > > > > of Maya, a diversion from the Divine. So, accept > > > > > Siddhis if they > > > > > come to you but do not play with them and continue > > > > > to use your > > > > > Sadhana to move beyond them toward the Divine. > > > > > > > > > > OM Namah Sivaya > > > > > > > > > > Omprem > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online. > > > > http://taxes./filing.html > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > Links > > > > > > * > > > / > > > > > > * > > > > > > > > > * Terms > of > > > Service. > > > > > > ------------------------------ > Links > > * > / > > * > > > * Terms of > Service. > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted February 9, 2004 Beloved Nisarg, You make a good point. I agree wholeheartedly and thank you for the clarification. I have never been able to take it for granted that this world was just maya, just an illusion that I must look through or go beyond or otherwise reject, suppress, and condemn in order to realize liberation/enlightenment. Although I found that this was the import of teachings labelled Buddhist as well as Hindu, the problem it seemed to me was this: one can tell that the appearance of water is a mirage by simply walking up to it. How does one ascertain that this whole world and one's one presence within it is maya, a mirage? From what standpoint can this be proven? From the point of view of classical yoga, samadhi is the standpoint from which one can ascertain that all else is illusion. I could agree with that because if one does not breath, one does not think, and all cognition disappears. One can, in effect duplicate death. Having experienced two attacks of congestive heart failure and survived because of an ability to go into samadhi, I can speak from some experience. But I cannot say that such experiences proved that all this is maya, All they proved is that one can stop breath, stop thouight, experience incredible bliss and merge with emptiness if you are a Buddhist or with fullness if you are a Shaivite. In Abhinavagupta's Shaivism, samadhi is not the ultimate expereince and all of what is called maya is as real as Shiva/Shakti. Resting in the Self, maya is just another expression of ultimate freedom, spontaneous and effortless, free of cause and purpose, to be enjoyed in sublimation and upliftment. Vedarthi Swami Anand Nisarg wrote: > > Dear Sw. Nisarg, > > > > Have you found Sw. Sivanandaís poem a bit too > > serious, a bit too > > zealous? > > > > Sw. Prem Vedarthi > > Beloved Vedarthi, > > While the poem was a bit too serious and a bit too > zealous, that was not the point of my criticism. The > point was that it was dualistic. It presents maya as a > force that one must struggle and fight to try to > overcome by setting one's self apart from the world. > > Nisarg > > > > Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online. > http://taxes./filing.html > > > > Links > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted February 9, 2004 In a message dated 2/9/04 5:47:38 PM Pacific Standard Time, childofdevi writes: > When you can consciously induce an OBE(out of body experience), that > some say is when you know that the world is Maya; that you not this > body and that you belong somewhere else and that you were always > eternal and have never died arnt all flights of imiganation OBE's ? One day many years ago I was reading a play and darn if I didn't take off it was very unsettling but OBE's are easy ...its staying teathered to earth that is difficult Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted February 9, 2004 Beloved Vedarthi, Very well put. I don't think that the original teachings of Buddha, or Krishna, and certainly not the Tantrist masters were of this dualistic nature. I think that the idea that the world is illusion or life is illusion are elements that were added by subsequent misunderstandings by unenlightened students. I think this fact is held up by certain contemporary teachers, enlightened in our own time, that also tried to steer people away from this sentiment of dualism and back to an understanding that what needs to be resolved spiritually is our own disconnection from the natural, not some kind of rejection of life. Love Nisarg --- James Rutke <jrutke wrote: > Beloved Nisarg, > > You make a good point. I agree wholeheartedly and > thank you for the > clarification. I have never been able to take it for > granted that this world > was just maya, just an illusion that I must look > through or go beyond or > otherwise reject, suppress, and condemn in order to > realize > liberation/enlightenment. Although I found that this > was the import of > teachings labelled Buddhist as well as Hindu, the > problem it seemed to me > was this: one can tell that the appearance of water > is a mirage by simply > walking up to it. How does one ascertain that this > whole world and one's one > presence within it is maya, a mirage? From what > standpoint can this be > proven? From the point of view of classical yoga, > samadhi is the standpoint > from which one can ascertain that all else is > illusion. I could agree with > that because if one does not breath, one does not > think, and all cognition > disappears. One can, in effect duplicate death. > Having experienced two > attacks of congestive heart failure and survived > because of an ability to go > into samadhi, I can speak from some experience. But > I cannot say that such > experiences proved that all this is maya, All they > proved is that one can > stop breath, stop thouight, experience incredible > bliss and merge with > emptiness if you are a Buddhist or with fullness if > you are a Shaivite. In > Abhinavagupta's Shaivism, samadhi is not the > ultimate expereince and all of > what is called maya is as real as Shiva/Shakti. > Resting in the Self, maya is > just another expression of ultimate freedom, > spontaneous and effortless, > free of cause and purpose, to be enjoyed in > sublimation and upliftment. > > Vedarthi > > Swami Anand Nisarg wrote: > > > > Dear Sw. Nisarg, > > > > > > Have you found Sw. Sivanandaís poem a bit too > > > serious, a bit too > > > zealous? > > > > > > Sw. Prem Vedarthi > > > > Beloved Vedarthi, > > > > While the poem was a bit too serious and a bit too > > zealous, that was not the point of my criticism. > The > > point was that it was dualistic. It presents maya > as a > > force that one must struggle and fight to try to > > overcome by setting one's self apart from the > world. > > > > Nisarg > > > > > > > > Finance: Get your refund fast by filing > online. > > http://taxes./filing.html > > > > > > > > Links > > > > > > > > > > Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online. http://taxes./filing.html Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted February 9, 2004 "You will have emotional attachment to Devi as long as you do not truly know that you are Devi." So When One have become a DEVI what happens? The self ceases to exist and it does not have any emotional attributes at all. Or you could say : Nora have cease to exist and she is the DEVI or She have merge with the DEVI. So ... how long do this process be: permanent or a temporary? Are we conscious of this process? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted February 9, 2004 > > Very well put. > I don't think that the original teachings of Buddha, > or Krishna, and certainly not the Tantrist masters > were of this dualistic nature. I think that the idea > that the world is illusion or life is illusion are > elements that were added by subsequent The original teachings do include this statement that the world is an illusion. We must understand this statement for what it represents- the world is an illusion only for those whose consciousness is firmly established in the inner worlds. When you dream dont most people think that it is all imagination; but the siddha KNOWS that the dream world is more real than our earth plane. But if consciousness is too gross then the statement that the world is an illusion does not mean much. It takes a lot of work to know that the world is an illusion:-). Of course you are right, when lofty philosophy comes down to the level of the common man, it is often distorted; so the concept of maya becomes an excuse for laziness; which is probably why several teachers denied the concept of Maya. Swami Sivananda, one of the greatest jnanis of modern times, speaks of Maya from the standpoint of prodding people to do their sadhana. > misunderstandings by unenlightened students. > I think this fact is held up by certain contemporary > teachers, enlightened in our own time, that also tried > to steer people away from this sentiment of dualism > and back to an understanding that what needs to be > resolved spiritually is our own disconnection from the > natural, not some kind of rejection of life. > > Love > Nisarg > > walking up to it. How does one ascertain that this > > whole world and one's one > > presence within it is maya, a mirage? From what > > standpoint can this be > > proven? From the point of view of classical yoga, > > samadhi is the standpoint > > from which one can ascertain that all else is > > illusion. I could agree with > > that because if one does not breath, one does not > > think, and all cognition The breathless state of samadhi is different from the death experience; in samadhi consciousness is greatly amplified. There is a description of this in the Autobiography of a yogi, where Yogananda goes into samadhi and can see everything for several miles around him (including what all the people are thinking etc) When you can consciously induce an OBE(out of body experience), that some say is when you know that the world is Maya; that you not this body and that you belong somewhere else and that you were always eternal and have never died. > > disappears. One can, in effect duplicate death. > > Having experienced two > > attacks of congestive heart failure and survived > > because of an ability to go > > into samadhi, I can speak from some experience. But You can go into samadhi? You can cease breathing when in samadhi? > > I cannot say that such > > experiences proved that all this is maya, All they > > proved is that one can > > stop breath, stop thouight, experience incredible > > bliss and merge with > > emptiness if you are a Buddhist or with fullness if > > you are a Shaivite. In At least in Saiva Siddhanta, the fullness is only Savikalpa samadhi and is followed by Emptiness which is the full Nirvikalpa samadhi. Respectfully -yogaman Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted February 9, 2004 OM Swamiji Now I get it. You quote Osho to prove your point. And like Osho you refuse to answer questions, refuse to deal with information that refutes your muddled ideas, intentionally misconstrue comments, and generally obfusticate. Just so that the just of the members of this group know your lineage, here are the facts on the degenerate Osho. Osho, aka Sri Rajneesh, began his career preaching free love in the `60's and 70's. Just before being deported from the U.S in the `80's, his `ashram' was patrolled by armed guards, he and his followers were involved in the attempted murder of the Orgegon state attorney that was investigating the Rajneesh organization, poisoned the food in 10 restaurant so that 750 people became ill in an attempt to incapacitate voters so that the Rajneesh slate could win an election. By 1985, he and his movement was under investigation for multiple felonies including arson, attempted murder, drug smuggling, and vote fraud in the nearby town of Antelope. In 1985 Rajneesh pleaded guilty to immigration fraud and was deported from the United States. He was refused entry by 21 countries before returning to Pune to set up another compound patrolled by armed guards. Also, in the `80's, AIDS came on the scene, so Rajneesh, now named Osho, gave up on his free love doctrine and began to preach a perverted version of Buddhism. He died mysteriously in 1990 and many say that he was poisoned (poetic justice) by his senior followers so that they could control his many products worth millions annually. This is the person that you quote as authoritive? It is clear that your views are uninformed. I will no longer waste my time or the time of the other members of this club by engaging you in an exchange of views. OM Namah Sivaya Omprem , Swami Anand Nisarg <swamiji_nisarg> wrote: > > Beloved Omprem, > > Human nature is the only divinity there is. > Enlightenment is found in the human, not out of it. > People who speak flowery words about "being one with > the divine" are really people who are scared or > disgusted by the reality that they are human. > The "wallowing" is not from being human, but from > failing to do so. > > There are all these people in the world trying to be > Gods or saints, who have never bothered to try to be > good humans first. It cannot work that way. > > And dualism is not found when you are natural, and > human. Dualism is found when you create this rift > between the natural, the human and the divine. > > Love > Nisarg > > "Be more human." -Osho > > --- omprem <omprem> wrote: > > OM Swamiji > > > > I am, of course, referring to Sri Swami Sivananda of > > Rishikesh > > who, by the way, is not my Guru. > > > > I noticed that in referring to Swami Sivananda Radha > > you > > italicized 'swami'. Are you meaning to imply that > > she is not a > > swami? She was initiated into sannaysa by non other > > than Sri > > Swami Sivananda. Is there some cultural bias against > > female > > swamis creeping into your thought? > > > > It seems to me that it is you that playing with > > words. You say that > > if one says (as you incorrectly interprete the poem > > to be saying) > > that "Sadhana a struggle against the "world", or > > against human > > nature, rather than a discovery of human nature, > > then you are > > stuck in dualism." But the poem is not focussing on > > human > > nature. It is speaking about our Divine nature. If > > you wish to > > wallow in your human nature, then you are indeed > > stuck in > > dualism. But if you wish to know and identify fully > > with your Divine > > nature, then you are non-dual because you are > > Brahman. Of > > course, you will no longer have a human body, so if > > that is > > important to you, then stay focused on your human > > nature. > > > > OM Namah Sivaya > > > > Omprem > > > > > > , Swami Anand > > Nisarg > > <swamiji_nisarg> wrote: > > > > > > Beloved Omprem, > > > > > > It was a play on words. Evil for Veil. Sivananda > > may > > > as well be saying it that way. Everyone thinks > > that > > > the "saints" they happen to like is "loved by > > > millions", consider Sai Baba or Osho, both loved > > and > > > hated by millions. > > > But to play along, which Sivananda are you > > referring > > > to here? There have been many. Do you mean Swami > > > Sivananda Radha, the female "swami" from Canada? > > Or > > > Sri Swami Sivananda, her guru? Or some other > > > Sivananda? > > > > > > Indeed, one should be regular in Sadhana, but to > > > consider that Sadhana a struggle against the > > "world", > > > or against human nature, rather than a discovery > > of > > > human nature, then you are stuck in dualism. How > > can > > > you use dualism to escape dualism? > > > > > > Love, > > > Nisarg > > > > > > --- omprem <omprem> wrote: > > > > OM Swamiji > > > > > > > > If you prefer to consider Swami Sivananda as > > foolish > > > > or prone to > > > > making foolish statements that is your > > preogative. > > > > > > > > However, I should point out that Swami Sivananda > > is > > > > believed by > > > > millions to be one of the greatest, if not the > > > > greatest, Indian saint > > > > of the last century. > > > > > > > > Perhaps, you thought that the poem was written > > by > > > > me. Or, > > > > perhaps you have not heard of Swami Sivananda. > > > > > > > > Or, perhaps you simply did not understand what > > the > > > > poem was > > > > saying. It was saying that Maya locks one into > > > > dualism and > > > > keeps one estranged from the Divine and one's > > own > > > > Divine > > > > nature. Through Sadhana one eventually moves > > beyond > > > > Maya to > > > > rest in Oneness, to rest in one's own true > > identity > > > > - that of > > > > Brahman. > > > > > > > > You mention 'evil', but Swami Sivananda's poem > > does > > > > not > > > > mention 'evil'. It says quite clearly that Maya > > is > > > > a veiling force that > > > > obscures one's Divine nature. No emotional value > > was > > > > assigned > > > > to Maya. Nor should there be. > > > > > > > > If you would care to discuss the meaning of the > > poem > > > > as written > > > > instead of misusing it to veer off into your own > > > > agenda, we may > > > > all learn something. > > > > > > > > Perhaps you are somewhat dyslexic and transposed > > the > > > > 'v' and > > > > 'e' of 'veil' to arrive at 'evil'. > > > > > > > > As Swami Sivananda's poem says, "Practise > > eternal > > > > vigilance > > > > and introspection; Pray, do Japa, worship and > > > > meditate: Maya > > > > can never, never approach you." > > > > > > > > May I ask who your Guru is? > > > > > > > > Om Namah Sivaya > > > > > > > > Omprem > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , Swami > > Anand > > > > Nisarg > > > > <swamiji_nisarg> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > "Mayas evil" sound slike a very foolish > > statement > > > > to > > > > > me. It reduces the wisdom of the east to > > > > ridiculous > > > > > good/bad dualism just like what you find in > > > > > christianity. > > > > > > > > > > Unfortunately many groups today, influence in > > part > > > > by > > > > > western religions, have misinterpreted reality > > in > > > > this > > > > > way, thinking, for example, that maya is > > "evil". > > > > Maya > > > > > isn't even real, how can it be evil? Its only > > > > > illusion. > > > > > > > > > > Nisarg > > > > > > > > > > --- omprem <omprem> wrote: > > > > > > OM aspirants > > > > > > > > > > > > Perhaps the final word on this discussion of > > > > siddhis > > > > > > could go to > > > > > > Swami Sivananda as expressed in the > > following > > > > poem > > > > > > taken > > > > > > from his short book, Vairagya Mala: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > MAYA'S VEIL > > > > > > > > > > > > At every step she puts a veil. > > > > > > Do not think that you will have to break > > > > > > Only one veil at the last stage of Sadhana. > > > > > > Maya puts countless veils: > > > > > > Attachment, cravings, desire, > > > > > > Likes and dislikes, infatuation, > > > === message truncated === > > > > > Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online. > http://taxes./filing.html Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted February 9, 2004 childofdevi wrote: > > The breathless state of samadhi is different from the death > experience; in samadhi consciousness is greatly amplified. There is a > description of this in the Autobiography of a yogi, where Yogananda > goes into samadhi and can see everything for several miles around him > (including what all the people are thinking etc) > > When you can consciously induce an OBE(out of body experience), that > some say is when you know that the world is Maya; that you not this > body and that you belong somewhere else and that you were always > eternal and have never died. > > You can go into samadhi? You can cease breathing when in samadhi? > > At least in Saiva Siddhanta, the fullness is only Savikalpa samadhi > and is followed by Emptiness which is the full Nirvikalpa samadhi. Yes, that is the case in Shaiva Siddhanta. Trika has a different view of the whole matter. I suggest that you read "The Yogic Disciplines in the Monistic Shaiva Tantric Traditions of Kashmir: Threefold, Fourfold, and Six-Limbed" by Navjivan Rastogi in Ritual and Speculation in Early Tantrism ed. by Teun Goudriaan, SUNY Press, 1992. I have experienced involuntary samadhi/loss of breath in which the only event in consciousness was the mantra that came on. That might be called an amplification of consciousness, but in fact it was simply the result of following my guru's instructions and thereby avoiding physical injury. Make no mistake, Tantra is the most dangerous path on the planet if one does not have a qualified guru and does not follow his/her instructions to the letter. I have experienced voluntary samadhi/stoppage of breath in sexual yoga. With or without a partner, the technique of kumbaka, the pot-shaped retention, allows isolation of breath in the central channel, in particular in the heart center. Then inhalation and exhalation can stop. Samadhi at death is what is known as mahasamadhi. There are samadhis in which a glimpse of the death state is gotten. One of the concrete results is loss of the fear of death. In fact there are many kinds of samadhi, some which give experience of great bliss, some which give experience of prakasha vimarsha (self-representative illumination), visions of deity, etc etc As in the case of Yogananda, minor siddhis can also occur. Out of body experience is rather common and often brings an outlook which is the exact opposite of seeing this life as an illlusion. One sees that human existence and the complete all around panorama is just as real as Shiva/Shakti and that we all are exactly where we belong. What is your experience? Sincerely, Sw. Prem Vedarthi > > > > > > Sponsor [click here] > > ------------------------------ > Links > > * > / > > * > > > * Terms of > Service. > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted February 9, 2004 omprem wrote: > OM Swamiji > > Now I get it. > > You quote Osho to prove your point. And like Osho you refuse to > answer questions, refuse to deal with information that refutes > your muddled ideas, intentionally misconstrue comments, and > generally obfusticate. > Dear OM Prem, Insults will get you nowhere. Love, the real Prem. > > > > , Swami Anand Nisarg > <swamiji_nisarg> wrote: > > > > Beloved Omprem, > > > > Human nature is the only divinity there is. > > Enlightenment is found in the human, not out of it. > > People who speak flowery words about "being one with > > the divine" are really people who are scared or > > disgusted by the reality that they are human. > > The "wallowing" is not from being human, but from > > failing to do so. > > > > There are all these people in the world trying to be > > Gods or saints, who have never bothered to try to be > > good humans first. It cannot work that way. > > > > And dualism is not found when you are natural, and > > human. Dualism is found when you create this rift > > between the natural, the human and the divine. > > > > Love > > Nisarg > > > > "Be more human." -Osho > > > > --- omprem <omprem> wrote: > > > OM Swamiji > > > > > > I am, of course, referring to Sri Swami Sivananda of > > > Rishikesh > > > who, by the way, is not my Guru. > > > > > > I noticed that in referring to Swami Sivananda Radha > > > you > > > italicized 'swami'. Are you meaning to imply that > > > she is not a > > > swami? She was initiated into sannaysa by non other > > > than Sri > > > Swami Sivananda. Is there some cultural bias against > > > female > > > swamis creeping into your thought? > > > > > > It seems to me that it is you that playing with > > > words. You say that > > > if one says (as you incorrectly interprete the poem > > > to be saying) > > > that "Sadhana a struggle against the "world", or > > > against human > > > nature, rather than a discovery of human nature, > > > then you are > > > stuck in dualism." But the poem is not focussing on > > > human > > > nature. It is speaking about our Divine nature. If > > > you wish to > > > wallow in your human nature, then you are indeed > > > stuck in > > > dualism. But if you wish to know and identify fully > > > with your Divine > > > nature, then you are non-dual because you are > > > Brahman. Of > > > course, you will no longer have a human body, so if > > > that is > > > important to you, then stay focused on your human > > > nature. > > > > > > OM Namah Sivaya > > > > > > Omprem > > > > > > > > > , Swami Anand > > > Nisarg > > > <swamiji_nisarg> wrote: > > > > > > > > Beloved Omprem, > > > > > > > > It was a play on words. Evil for Veil. Sivananda > > > may > > > > as well be saying it that way. Everyone thinks > > > that > > > > the "saints" they happen to like is "loved by > > > > millions", consider Sai Baba or Osho, both loved > > > and > > > > hated by millions. > > > > But to play along, which Sivananda are you > > > referring > > > > to here? There have been many. Do you mean Swami > > > > Sivananda Radha, the female "swami" from Canada? > > > Or > > > > Sri Swami Sivananda, her guru? Or some other > > > > Sivananda? > > > > > > > > Indeed, one should be regular in Sadhana, but to > > > > consider that Sadhana a struggle against the > > > "world", > > > > or against human nature, rather than a discovery > > > of > > > > human nature, then you are stuck in dualism. How > > > can > > > > you use dualism to escape dualism? > > > > > > > > Love, > > > > Nisarg > > > > > > > > --- omprem <omprem> wrote: > > > > > OM Swamiji > > > > > > > > > > If you prefer to consider Swami Sivananda as > > > foolish > > > > > or prone to > > > > > making foolish statements that is your > > > preogative. > > > > > > > > > > However, I should point out that Swami Sivananda > > > is > > > > > believed by > > > > > millions to be one of the greatest, if not the > > > > > greatest, Indian saint > > > > > of the last century. > > > > > > > > > > Perhaps, you thought that the poem was written > > > by > > > > > me. Or, > > > > > perhaps you have not heard of Swami Sivananda. > > > > > > > > > > Or, perhaps you simply did not understand what > > > the > > > > > poem was > > > > > saying. It was saying that Maya locks one into > > > > > dualism and > > > > > keeps one estranged from the Divine and one's > > > own > > > > > Divine > > > > > nature. Through Sadhana one eventually moves > > > beyond > > > > > Maya to > > > > > rest in Oneness, to rest in one's own true > > > identity > > > > > - that of > > > > > Brahman. > > > > > > > > > > You mention 'evil', but Swami Sivananda's poem > > > does > > > > > not > > > > > mention 'evil'. It says quite clearly that Maya > > > is > > > > > a veiling force that > > > > > obscures one's Divine nature. No emotional value > > > was > > > > > assigned > > > > > to Maya. Nor should there be. > > > > > > > > > > If you would care to discuss the meaning of the > > > poem > > > > > as written > > > > > instead of misusing it to veer off into your own > > > > > agenda, we may > > > > > all learn something. > > > > > > > > > > Perhaps you are somewhat dyslexic and transposed > > > the > > > > > 'v' and > > > > > 'e' of 'veil' to arrive at 'evil'. > > > > > > > > > > As Swami Sivananda's poem says, "Practise > > > eternal > > > > > vigilance > > > > > and introspection; Pray, do Japa, worship and > > > > > meditate: Maya > > > > > can never, never approach you." > > > > > > > > > > May I ask who your Guru is? > > > > > > > > > > Om Namah Sivaya > > > > > > > > > > Omprem > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , Swami > > > Anand > > > > > Nisarg > > > > > <swamiji_nisarg> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > "Mayas evil" sound slike a very foolish > > > statement > > > > > to > > > > > > me. It reduces the wisdom of the east to > > > > > ridiculous > > > > > > good/bad dualism just like what you find in > > > > > > christianity. > > > > > > > > > > > > Unfortunately many groups today, influence in > > > part > > > > > by > > > > > > western religions, have misinterpreted reality > > > in > > > > > this > > > > > > way, thinking, for example, that maya is > > > "evil". > > > > > Maya > > > > > > isn't even real, how can it be evil? Its only > > > > > > illusion. > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisarg > > > > > > > > > > > > --- omprem <omprem> wrote: > > > > > > > OM aspirants > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Perhaps the final word on this discussion of > > > > > siddhis > > > > > > > could go to > > > > > > > Swami Sivananda as expressed in the > > > following > > > > > poem > > > > > > > taken > > > > > > > from his short book, Vairagya Mala: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > MAYA'S VEIL > > > > > > > > > > > > > > At every step she puts a veil. > > > > > > > Do not think that you will have to break > > > > > > > Only one veil at the last stage of Sadhana. > > > > > > > Maya puts countless veils: > > > > > > > Attachment, cravings, desire, > > > > > > > Likes and dislikes, infatuation, > > > > > === message truncated === > > > > > > > > > > Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online. > > http://taxes./filing.html > > > Sponsor [click here] > > ------------------------------ > Links > > * > / > > * > > > * Terms of > Service. > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted February 9, 2004 My! My! we are getting very tense here. Just in another group they talk about dirt. How do you remove the dirt that have been thrown at you? And this is my respond : It we consider the dirt as dirt then it becomes dirt. This is what I would do when somebody throw a `dirt' at me. I would hold it, dissect and feel it. Learn more about the dirt and try to find the answers as to why this is call dirt and why it is being thrown at me. What makes dirt a dirt? Can we change this dirt to something productive? The act of dissecting and learning about the dirt itself is the process of learning. The best form of learning is being reflective of our thoughts and action. "Insults will get you nowhere." A quote from a good friend : Don't let insults hurt you, for it is like a self inflicting injury. Why do you want to hurt yourself? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted February 9, 2004 > Swami Anand Nisarg [swamiji_nisarg] Blessings Nisarg, > I think that the idea that the world is > illusion or life is illusion are elements that were added by > subsequent misunderstandings by unenlightened students. > I think this fact is held up by certain contemporary > teachers, enlightened in our own time, that also tried to > steer people away from this sentiment of dualism and back to > an understanding that what needs to be resolved spiritually > is our own disconnection from the natural, not some kind of > rejection of life. Like you, I don't look upon life as "illusion". That's part of what appeals to me about Shakti - Maya is Her manifestation and is alive with Her energy; rejecting it is rejecting Her. I feel these sages and saints were expressing a simple truth in extreme language. One can enjoy Maya, as long as one undertakes it for Her sake and devotes the enjoyment to Her - but Maya is not all there is to enjoy. Tasting nothing but Maya is like eating the skin off of the apple, but never tasting the flesh - or like keeping the rind of the orange and throwing the fruit away. In Her Service, KG (J) ---- Kensho Godchaser http://www.KenshoGodchaser.com/ Why should there be anything new? The object of spiritual seeking is to find out what is eternally true, not what is new in Time. - Sri Aurobindo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted February 10, 2004 Insults will get you nowhere, i.e. they get nowhere near me, neither the me who is human nor the me who is non-dually divine. I was not speaking to defend myself, but to offer a comment on OM Prem's insulting remarks directed at Swami Nisarg, who has addressed me as beloved Vedarthi, I'm sure he can speak for himself as to what makes dirt dirt. As for the insults directed at Osho, I heard nothing new, the same old misrepresentations made by a person who obviously never was in Osho's presence. The lotus must struggle to get out of the muck of ignorance and slander, but get out it does, and the fragrance of its wisdom is available to all who dare to fully open their senses. Sw. Prem Vedarthi PS Things are not half as tense here as they have become in some of the Buddhist groups I belong to...yet! "N. Madasamy" wrote: > My! My! we are getting very tense here. > > Just in another group they talk about dirt. How do you remove the > dirt that have been thrown at you? And this is my respond : It we > consider the dirt as dirt then it becomes dirt. This is what I would > do when somebody throw a `dirt' at me. I would hold it, dissect and > feel it. Learn more about the dirt and try to find the answers as to > why this is call dirt and why it is being thrown at me. What makes > dirt a dirt? Can we change this dirt to something productive? The act > of dissecting and learning about the dirt itself is the process of > learning. The best form of learning is being reflective of our > thoughts and action. > > "Insults will get you nowhere." > A quote from a good friend : Don't let insults hurt you, for it > is > like a self inflicting injury. Why do you want to hurt yourself? > > > > Sponsor [click here] > > ------------------------------ > Links > > * > / > > * > > > * Terms of > Service. > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
