Lotus of the Heart and the Cave of the Heart

[Guest guest]

Ken Knight had raised the question about the

difference between the Lotus of the Heart and Cave of

the Heart on the Advaitin List.

 

At the web site, I have extensively

discussed the different "Hearts". Comments by

Sri Ramana on this topic can be found in the

"Talks".

 

The Heart Lotus often referred to in the yogic

literature is the Heart Center of Kundalini Yoga. This

is felt in the *Center* of the chest. Focusing on the

Heart Center is one of the yogic methods for

advancement on the Shakti Path.

 

The "Spiritual Heart" mentioned by Sri Ramana

is truly and completely beyond all centers and is not

attained by specific concentration on a particular

part of the body. However, before the mind merges into

the Heart, the last feeling and sensation is felt

slightly to the lower right of the chest cavity. Sri

Ramana described this many times and said that when

people refer to themselves with their finger, they are

pointing at this center.

 

Love to all

Harsha

 

 

=====

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[Guest guest]

Thanks Greg-Ji for sharing your view. You may be

right. However, I have never seen a Chinese person or

a person from any other culture or country pointing to

their forehead in general conversation when referring

to themselves unless it is done consciously and to

make a certain point.

 

Unconsciously, when people refer to themselves

physically with their fingers or thumb, they point to

their chest and not their forehead. That is my general

observation.

 

 

Love to all

Harsha

 

=====

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[Guest guest]

Hi Harsha,

 

I have seen this forehead-pointing many times - my wife is Chinese and she does

it, and we see lots of Chinese movies where they do it. And they are really and

naturally pointing to what they take as themselves, not doing anything

self-conscious.

 

But it doesn't matter!! Even if only 60% or 40% of the world pointed to the

center/left/right part of the chest, Ramana's teaching point is a very very good

one! It resonates with those who hear it!

 

OM to all!

 

--Greg

 

At 01:27 PM 8/15/02 -0700, Harsha wrote:

>Thanks Greg-Ji for sharing your view. You may be

>right. However, I have never seen a Chinese person or

>a person from any other culture or country pointing to

>their forehead in general conversation when referring

>to themselves unless it is done consciously and to

>make a certain point.

>

>Unconsciously, when people refer to themselves

>physically with their fingers or thumb, they point to

>their chest and not their forehead. That is my general

>observation.

>

>

>Love to all

>Harsha

>

>=====

[Guest guest]

Dear Sri Gregji. Welcome to the club. Forehead

pointing by wives saying, "I have a headache" is a

universal phenomena and not limited to the Chinese

culture! :-).

 

On a more serious note, I agree with you. In fact, any

kind of sensation of pain can lead to pointing to that

part of the body while the individual says "I am

hurting." For example if someone sprains their ankle

badly, the person will grab it and may say, "I am

hurt". It does not imply that the person feels that

the ankle is his/her own Self or the Self is hidden

somewhere close to the foot.

 

Similarly, when someone points to the chest and refers

to himself, it does mean that the chest is the Self or

the Self is hidden in the chest. Sri Ramana is fairly

clear on this matter. Heart refers to Core of Being,

Being Itself, Pure consciousness that is

Sat-Chit-Ananda. It is the same as the Original Face

of Buddhism. However, people are too eager to dismiss

Sri RAmana's very physical references to the

experiences prior to the mind merging into the Heart.

The fact is that such experiences which allow for

seeing beyond experience and are the gateway to

recognition of nonmovement in movement are rare and

usually come to most through many years of serious

dedicated meditation practice and inquiry. Advaita is

not the fast food as many people would wish to

believe. Therefore, the reference point for discussion

is missing.

 

The Heart exists at many levels, and from the

perspective of the mind, that includes the physical.

Upon realizing the heart, physical, mental, chest,

sensation, etc. vanishes like a phantom.

 

For more on the Heart and Nirvikalpa Samadhi, Please

refer to the following link which contains some of my

posts on the Heart. I am open to questions on this

matter as the Heart is one of favorite topics.

 

Love to all

Harsha

 

For more on the Heart see the link below.

 

__/MagazineV2/harsha/heart.html

_____________

Hi Harsha,

 

I have seen this forehead-pointing many times - my

wife is Chinese and she does

it, and we see lots of Chinese movies where they do

it. And they are really

and naturally pointing to what they take as

themselves, not doing anything

self-conscious.

 

But it doesn't matter!! Even if only 60% or 40% of the

world pointed to the

center/left/right part of the chest, Ramana's teaching

point is a very very

good one! It resonates with those who hear it!

 

OM to all!

 

--Greg

 

 

/MagazineV2/harsha/heart.html

 

 

=====

/join

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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http://www.hotjobs.com

[Guest guest]

Harsha wrote:

However, people are too eager to dismiss

Sri RAmana's very physical references to the

experiences prior to the mind merging into the Heart.

Hi Harsha! This is interesting, could you point to some reference online

or maybe elucidate slightly from memory?

Thanks

Mace

By the way, welcome back!

[Guest guest]

Oh yes! Welcome back, Harsha! Goodness, moving, classes starting.

We can never hear too much about Mira, you two must have such a

special bond. Thanks for the baby love poem.

And Mace, we should welcome you back too!

Hope you'll post some of your poems here for us again.

Love,

Gloria

-

Mace Mealer

Thursday, August 15, 2002 10:18 PM

Re: Re: Lotus of the Heart and the Cave of the Heart

Harsha wrote: However, people are too eager to dismiss Sri RAmana's

very physical references to the experiences prior to the mind merging

into the Heart.Hi Harsha! This is interesting, could you point to

some reference online or maybe elucidate slightly from memory?

Thanks Mace By the way, welcome back!

/join

All paths go

somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, perceptions,

and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside back

into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than

the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of

Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It

is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the

Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of

Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It Self.

Welcome all to a.Your use of is subject

to the

[Guest guest]

Dear Harsha

 

You wrote:

>Sri Ramana's very physical references to the experiences

>prior to the mind merging into the Heart.

 

I'm glad you mention this... although experiences, they aren't to be

poopood...and I appreciate the posts on this very much.

>The Heart exists at many levels, and from the

>perspective of the mind, that includes the physical.

>Upon realizing the heart, physical, mental, chest,

>sensation, etc. vanishes like a phantom.

>...before the mind merges into

>the Heart, the last feeling and sensation is felt

>slightly to the lower right of the chest cavity.

 

I got pointed to this via Franklin Jones (Adi Da, etc.) and had to do a lot

of work on this.

The initial physical aspects were quite clear to me.

It is as though "Who am I?" on the physical non-mind level had to merge

along the Amrita Nadi with the non physical "Who am I?" on the mind level,

into the Heart or CORE BEING (The Latin "cor" means heart.)

 

When the two (subjective physical and subjective non physical "Who am I?")

synchronize and syntopize into "CORE BEING" (according to Don Juan when the

tonal and nagual surrender into each other) "Who am I?" dissolves and one

has recovered one's original advaitan integrity.

 

I must say though that after having talked to some women, I found that they

may "process" this physical aspect differently as far as sidedness goes.

>...before the mind merges into

>the Heart, the last feeling and sensation is felt

>slightly to the lower right of the chest cavity.

 

Not sure, of course how general this is, but pointing to the right side of

the lower chest may, as far as I can see, be quite a masculine approach, as

I see an opposite sidedness with women on my biofeedback apparatus.

 

I would like to know how women on this list relate to this sidedness? Do

they have the same experience as men?

 

Could it be that male gurus have given women a challenge here by talking too

much from physical male perspective?

 

With all due respect, as you know Harsha...

Wim

---

Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.

Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).

Version: 6.0.381 / Virus Database: 214 - Release 8/2/2002

[Guest guest]

, Wim Borsboom <wim@a...> wrote:

 

 

Dearest Wim,

 

For myself, as you have asked how it is for the women on this list,

the right side has always been the Heart pointing and feeling, and

also, in Kriya Yoga meditation, the different "sounds" emanating from

the chakras has always been "listened to" and heard in the right ear.

i do not know why this is, but perhaps it is because of the Heart

being known in the right side.

 

LoveAlways,

 

Mazie

 

> Dear Harsha

>

> You wrote:

> >Sri Ramana's very physical references to the experiences

> >prior to the mind merging into the Heart.

>

> I'm glad you mention this... although experiences, they aren't to be

> poopood...and I appreciate the posts on this very much.

>

> >The Heart exists at many levels, and from the

> >perspective of the mind, that includes the physical.

> >Upon realizing the heart, physical, mental, chest,

> >sensation, etc. vanishes like a phantom.

>

> >...before the mind merges into

> >the Heart, the last feeling and sensation is felt

> >slightly to the lower right of the chest cavity.

>

> I got pointed to this via Franklin Jones (Adi Da, etc.) and had to

do a lot

> of work on this.

> The initial physical aspects were quite clear to me.

> It is as though "Who am I?" on the physical non-mind level had to

merge

> along the Amrita Nadi with the non physical "Who am I?" on the mind

level,

> into the Heart or CORE BEING (The Latin "cor" means heart.)

>

> When the two (subjective physical and subjective non physical "Who

am I?")

> synchronize and syntopize into "CORE BEING" (according to Don Juan

when the

> tonal and nagual surrender into each other) "Who am I?" dissolves

and one

> has recovered one's original advaitan integrity.

>

> I must say though that after having talked to some women, I found

that they

> may "process" this physical aspect differently as far as sidedness

goes.

>

> >...before the mind merges into

> >the Heart, the last feeling and sensation is felt

> >slightly to the lower right of the chest cavity.

>

> Not sure, of course how general this is, but pointing to the right

side of

> the lower chest may, as far as I can see, be quite a masculine

approach, as

> I see an opposite sidedness with women on my biofeedback apparatus.

>

> I would like to know how women on this list relate to this

sidedness? Do

> they have the same experience as men?

>

> Could it be that male gurus have given women a challenge here by

talking too

> much from physical male perspective?

>

> With all due respect, as you know Harsha...

> Wim

> ---

> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.

> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).

> Version: 6.0.381 / Virus Database: 214 - Release 8/2/2002

[Guest guest]

Thanks Gloria and Mace for the welcome back. In and out of town quite

a bit these days.

 

Mace, as you asked, there are references to the Heart throughout Sri

Ramana's "Talks".

 

Here is some of what I wrote earlier (from HS website.)

 

/MagazineV2/harsha/heart.html

 

We can distinguish between the three hearts. There is the physical

organ that pumps blood, there is the Heart Center of Kundalini Yoga -

a major psychic center, and then there is the Spiritual Heart, which

is beyond the Sahasarara chakra and all the centers. It is the Center

beyond all centers.

 

 

In Sanskrit, the word Hridyam is used and that is translated into

English as the Heart. I am not a Sanskrit scholar but Hrid means

Heart or Center. "Hridyam" means "Here is the Center." It is the Same

as Buddha Nature, The Original Nature, Self, Original Face, Shunya,

etc.

 

 

When Upanishads mention the Hridyam or Hridya Gufa (Cave of the

Heart) or Ramana Maharshi speaks of the Heart, they are speaking of

this Center of Being...Pure Being, Pure Presence without edges, the

Spiritual Heart. Upon seeing Suzuki's quote, I was actually struck by

the similarity between how I would describe the Heart and the way

Suzuki described the Buddhist perspective. Here is the quote:

 

 

"All-knowledge is what constitutes the essence of Buddhahood. It does

not mean that the Buddha knows every individual thing, but that he

has grasped the fundamental principle of existence and that he has

penetrated deep down into the center of his own being."

 

 

Again the following quote from Suzuki is stunning for its beauty and

clarity:

 

 

D.T. Suzuki (1870-1966)

 

 

"Penetrating deep down into the center of one's own being one finds a

nameless transparency, an awake space filled by all the world, from

one's own thoughts and feelings and body to the stars in the heavens.

This still, spacious no-thingness is the heart of everyone's being.

Thus to find this no-thingness is to see that one is fundamentally

united with all beings. At root there is only one - the One."

 

 

Awakening to the One is primarily a matter of actual seeing, of bare

attention, rather than intellectual understanding - vital as

understanding is. As Suzuki said, "I see. This is it." This seeing is

not yet another state of mind that comes and goes. It is awake No-

mind, the ground of being that underlies and is the source of all

states of mind, including samadhi. The contents of mind come and go

in No-mind.

 

 

The quotes of Suzuki are remarkable in that I (having a totally

different background and training than Suzuki and a close affinity

with Kundalini Yoga) find them resonating with the Truth of Being.

 

 

The Spiritual Heart transcends time and space and all reference

points in terms of location. However, experience of Yogis and Jnanis

shows that there is a particular "knot of the heart" in the heart

region which some become aware of before the mind and Shakti are

absorbed into the Self. That Is the Heart or the Center of Centers.

 

Love to all

Harsha

 

 

, "Gloria Lee" <glee@c...> wrote:

> Oh yes! Welcome back, Harsha! Goodness, moving, classes starting.

> We can never hear too much about Mira, you two must have such a

> special bond. Thanks for the baby love poem.

>

> And Mace, we should welcome you back too!

> Hope you'll post some of your poems here for us again.

>

> Love,

> Gloria

> -

> Mace Mealer

>

> Thursday, August 15, 2002 10:18 PM

> Re: Re: Lotus of the Heart and the Cave

of the Heart

>

>

>

> Harsha wrote:

>

> However, people are too eager to dismiss

> Sri RAmana's very physical references to the

> experiences prior to the mind merging into the Heart.

> Hi Harsha! This is interesting, could you point to some reference

online

> or maybe elucidate slightly from memory?

> Thanks

>

> Mace

>

[Guest guest]

harshaimtm wrote:

Thanks Gloria and Mace for the welcome

back. In and out of town quite

a bit these days.

Thank you very much, Harsha, I understand! if twenty people

in twenty different

countries discovered electricity, then it might have twenty

names and countless applications

devised by different minds that discovered it in different ways,

and yet remain a single reality or truth.

 

There will always be one place on earth, where the needle

of a compass will not

point north, and another from which all directions "are"

north.

From my own view point we are speaking of the mystery

of the seventh direction. (please excuse me for appearing

smarmy or cryptic

as it is not my intent, just an unavoidable aspect of

my flawed nature)

Apherion

 

At the edge of the land.

At the edge of the sea.

At the edge of the day.

At the edge of tomorrow.

At the edge of yesterday.

At the center of the six directions.

The mystery of the seventh is revealed,

as the heart song of the many

become One.

[Guest guest]

"Gabriele Ebert" <g.ebert@g...>

Mon Aug 19, 2002 5:50 pm

nothing to get, nothing to attain

 

 

To speak of a time to come - to hope for it - when I

will be "realized", is absolutely meaningless. It is

to set my faith, my interest - upasana - on a

particular state of consciousness, for example the

state of consciousness of Ramana's body (sarira). To

desire salvation (moksha) is a false word at the level

of the Absolute (paramartha).

 

Pay no attention either to the idea of being realized

or to that of not being realized. All that steadily

inflates the ego. So long as I think of an ego that

has to be transcended or annihilated, I am simply

feeding it! The sadhana for moksha lies simply in the

stopping (nivritti) of the manas. A sadhana that does

not even think of itself as such.

 

Nothing to get, nothing to attain to become free.

Having rejected salvation, he has rejected

(everything) - (he is) avadhuta, the one who is free

from everything!

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Abhishiktananda: Ascent to the Depth of the Heart,

diary entry April 19th and

20th, 1973

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Regarding the messages last month, I found this detailed descrption:

Questioner: You have said that the Heart is the centre of the Self.

Sri Ramana Maharshi: Yes, it is the one supreme centre of the Self.

You need have no doubt about it. The real Self is there in the Heart

behind the jiva or ego self.

Questioner: Now be please to tell me where it is in the body.

Sri Ramana Maharshi: You cannot know it with your mind. You cannot

realise it by imagination, when I tell you here is the centre

(pointing to the right side of the chest). The only direct way to

realise it is to cease to fantasize and try to be yourself. When you

realise, you automatically feel that the centre is there.

This is the centre, the Heart, spoken of in the scriptures as

Hrit-Guha (cavity of the heart), Arul (grace), Ullam (the Heart).

Questioner: In no book have I found it stated that it is there.

Sri Ramana Maharshi: Long after I came here I chanced upon a verse in

the Malayalam version of Ashtangahridayam, the standard work on

Ayurveda (science of life, health and medicine), wherein the Ojas

Sthana (source of bodily vitality or place of light) is mentioned as

being located in the right side of the chest and called the seat of

consciousness (samvit). But I know of no other work which refers to

it as being located there.

Question: Can I be sure that the ancients meant this centre by the term ‘Heart’?

Sri Ramana Maharshi: Yes that is so. But you should try to have rather

than to locate the experience. A man need not find out where his eyes

are situated when he wants to see. The Heart is there ever open to

you if you care to enter it, ever supporting all your movements even

when you are unaware. It is perhaps more proper to say that the Self

is the Heart itself than to say that it is in the Heart. Really, the

Self is the centre itself. It is everywhere, aware of itself as

‘Heart’, the Self-awareness.

Question: In that case, how can it be localised in any part of the

body? Fixing a place for the Heart would imply setting physiological

limitations to that which is beyond space and time.

Sri Ramana Maharshi: That is right. But the person who puts the

question about the position of the Heart considers himself as

existing with or in the body. While putting the question now, would

you say that your body alone is here but you are speaking from

somewhere else? No, you accept your bodily existence. It is from this

point of view that any reference to a physical body comes to be made.

Truly speaking, pure consciousness is indivisible, it is without

parts. It has no form and shape, no ‘within’ and ‘without’. There is

no ‘right’ or ‘left’ for it. Pure consciousness, which is the Heart,

includes all, and nothing is outside or apart from it. That is the

ultimate truth.

>From this absolute standpoint, the Heart, Self or consciousness can

have no particular place assigned to it in the physical body. What is

the reason? The body is itself a mere projection of the mind, and the

mind is but a poor reflection of the radiant Heart. How can that, in

which everything is contained be itself confined as a tiny part

within the physical body which is but an infinitesimal, phenomenal

manifestation of the one reality?

But people do not understand this. They cannot help thinking in terms

of the physical body and the world. For instance, you say, ‘I have

come to this ashram all the way from my country beyond the

Himalayas’. But that is not the truth. Where is ‘coming’ or ‘going’

or any movement whatever, for the one, all-pervading spirit which you

really are? You are where you have always been. It is your body that

moved or was conveyed from place to place till it reached this

ashram. This is the simple truth, but to a person who considers

himself a subject living in an objective world, it appears as

something altogether visionary!

It is by coming down to the level ordinary understanding that a place

is assigned to the Heart in the physical body.

[Guest guest]

Thank Al!

 

.....and since this is so perfectly described as coming from assumed points

of view, is it not also true of "guru" and "student". problems arise when

we asign absolute significance with "a meaning"....student is "thought" to

be inferior to guru...if one man helps another jai guru! who cares who is

who?

 

peace and love to all and one

 

Shawn

 

 

 

 

 

on 9/12/02 12:12 PM, Al Larus at alarus wrote:

> Regarding the messages last month, I found this detailed descrption:

>

>

>

> Questioner: You have said that the Heart is the centre of the Self.

>

> Sri Ramana Maharshi: Yes, it is the one supreme centre of the Self. You need

> have no doubt about it. The real Self is there in the Heart behind the jiva or

> ego self.

>

> Questioner: Now be please to tell me where it is in the body.

>

> Sri Ramana Maharshi: You cannot know it with your mind. You cannot realise it

> by imagination, when I tell you here is the centre (pointing to the right side

> of the chest). The only direct way to realise it is to cease to fantasize and

> try to be yourself. When you realise, you automatically feel that the centre

> is there.

>

> This is the centre, the Heart, spoken of in the scriptures as Hrit-Guha

> (cavity of the heart), Arul (grace), Ullam (the Heart).

>

> Questioner: In no book have I found it stated that it is there.

>

> Sri Ramana Maharshi: Long after I came here I chanced upon a verse in the

> Malayalam version of Ashtangahridayam, the standard work on Ayurveda (science

> of life, health and medicine), wherein the Ojas Sthana (source of bodily

> vitality or place of light) is mentioned as being located in the right side of

> the chest and called the seat of consciousness (samvit). But I know of no

> other work which refers to it as being located there.

>

> Question: Can I be sure that the ancients meant this centre by the term

> 'Heart'?

>

> Sri Ramana Maharshi: Yes that is so. But you should try to have rather than to

> locate the experience. A man need not find out where his eyes are situated

> when he wants to see. The Heart is there ever open to you if you care to enter

> it, ever supporting all your movements even when you are unaware. It is

> perhaps more proper to say that the Self is the Heart itself than to say that

> it is in the Heart. Really, the Self is the centre itself. It is everywhere,

> aware of itself as 'Heart', the Self-awareness.

>

> Question: In that case, how can it be localised in any part of the body?

> Fixing a place for the Heart would imply setting physiological limitations to

> that which is beyond space and time.

>

> Sri Ramana Maharshi: That is right. But the person who puts the question about

> the position of the Heart considers himself as existing with or in the body.

> While putting the question now, would you say that your body alone is here but

> you are speaking from somewhere else? No, you accept your bodily existence. It

> is from this point of view that any reference to a physical body comes to be

> made.

>

> Truly speaking, pure consciousness is indivisible, it is without parts. It has

> no form and shape, no 'within' and 'without'. There is no 'right' or 'left'

> for it. Pure consciousness, which is the Heart, includes all, and nothing is

> outside or apart from it. That is the ultimate truth.

>

>> From this absolute standpoint, the Heart, Self or consciousness can have no

>> particular place assigned to it in the physical body. What is the reason? The

>> body is itself a mere projection of the mind, and the mind is but a poor

>> reflection of the radiant Heart. How can that, in which everything is

>> contained be itself confined as a tiny part within the physical body which is

>> but an infinitesimal, phenomenal manifestation of the one reality?

>

> But people do not understand this. They cannot help thinking in terms of the

> physical body and the world. For instance, you say, 'I have come to this

> ashram all the way from my country beyond the Himalayas'. But that is not the

> truth. Where is 'coming' or 'going' or any movement whatever, for the one,

> all-pervading spirit which you really are? You are where you have always been.

> It is your body that moved or was conveyed from place to place till it reached

> this ashram. This is the simple truth, but to a person who considers himself a

> subject living in an objective world, it appears as something altogether

> visionary!

>

> It is by coming down to the level ordinary understanding that a place is

> assigned to the Heart in the physical body.

>

>

>

>