Them

<!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--><o:p></o:p> Thanks Bhaktajan.<o:p></o:p> Composing such longs posts is very exhausting for me but I think I gave Bishadi some nice material for contemplation. I may return to this subject in the future but for now I think this will suffice.<o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--><o:p></o:p> I don’t really understand where did you get impression that I just talk the talk and think only about myself. I guess I must have really provoked you with something and now you desperately want me to be some “egocentric hypocrite believer” so that you don’t have to take the things I say seriously. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> How can they bring this precious “peace” to you when you reject the very source of this peace.<o:p></o:p> The peace most people talk about is in reality only status quo which enables them to pursue their materialistic goals. <o:p></o:p> Krishna,Sri Caitantya ,Valalar, Sri Ramakrishna, Vivekananda. Ramana Maharishi, Sri Aurobindo... All these spiritual figures, exponents of various spiritual patsh gave humanity all they need to lead peacefull life not life of sense gratificiation, not life of the pigs, not even just intellectually refined life.<o:p></o:p> They gave us all we need to transform our lives not only as individuals but as the species and how many of us are using this knowledege?<o:p></o:p> <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--><o:p></o:p> <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--><o:p></o:p> How is Sri Caitanya responsible for our wars? <o:p></o:p> What were the bhaktas doing during war in my country while materialistic carnivorous fools, were raping , pillaging and killing even women and children in our cities.<o:p></o:p> They took care of refugees, of old and sick, feeding them , bathing them, comforting them. During the whole war.<o:p></o:p> Bhaktas shone when conditions were the worst. They gave the example , they begged people to stop slaughtering and devoruing animals, stop consuming alcholol.. stop with godless sinful activities... They did it for years and warned the people about such sinful activites which will result in wars, in bloodshed but nobody listened.<o:p></o:p> <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--><o:p></o:p> What else could they do. It is easy complaining form high intelectual platform, “but they still have ego, they’re not perfect yet.” Of course they are not but compared to inert materialistic, hedonistic greedy population of this planet they are blessing.<o:p></o:p> <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--><o:p></o:p> You think all those peple were doing it out of boredom or so that they could feel better when they look at the mirror.<o:p></o:p> What really happened is that those who came with such ideas left after first visit. With such motivation you will never endure under extreme conditions.<o:p></o:p> When they saw piss, shit and blood they ran away never to come back. One of them told me that he just couldn’t enjoy his life anymore after being in contact with so much misery and he eventually gave up but few of us remained during seven years. <o:p></o:p> But let me tell you something. I believe there are some atheists out there who are doing some good works and serving in such places but during our years there I haven’t met single one.<o:p></o:p> It was only Christians and followers of Sanathana Dharma.<o:p></o:p> <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--><o:p></o:p> It may not be for everyone, some are simply to sensitive to engage in such work but every intelectualy inclined person who thinks that spirituality is mere mental gymnastics should go through at least one year of seva. <o:p></o:p> <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--><o:p></o:p> I cannot stress enough how important this is and for some reason it is seldom integrated into spiritual practice. There are too many dry inteteletuals in spiritual movements today who believe that spirituality consists of reading tons of books, inventing new fancy terms and doing “Zen meditation” or hatha yoga for half hour a day.<o:p></o:p> Young people would particulary benefit from such service.<o:p></o:p> You think every bhakta is not aware already that they could give more and serve more? This is main motivaton for every sadhaka but I’m telling you that many of them have done and are still doing tremendous work.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--><o:p></o:p> <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--><o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p><o:p></o:p> <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--><o:p></o:p> <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--><o:p></o:p> I can't adress all your points , post is already too long and I doub't you're going to read half of it anyway but if you want we can always continue on PM.<o:p></o:p> <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--><o:p></o:p> <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> Even though english is not my native language I have no problem understanding other forum posters but some of your posts are very incoherent and confusing and I’m having problems deciphering the meaning.<o:p></o:p> <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--><o:p></o:p> <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--><o:p></o:p> So you’ve studied Vedanta?<o:p></o:p> What went wrong man?<o:p></o:p> I know that you know that you never gave your best.<o:p></o:p> If you had you won’t be here today defending reducionistic world view.<o:p></o:p> Too much reading without practice I presume but you should at least be familiar with some essential Sanskrit terms.<o:p></o:p> I’ve seen this often in new-agers who believe that little watered down overly intelecualized “eastern wisdom” without following regulative principles , without bhakti, renunciation, surrender and passion for the truth will make them spiritual and “wise in the ways of the Force)”.<o:p></o:p> <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--><o:p></o:p> And then after failing to realize beautifull esoteric truths of Vedanta they become bitter. It creates the most resilient kind of ignorance.<o:p></o:p> They often turn into hardcore skeptics and debunkers, those who embrace “the illusion of knowledge” as Alan Wallace use to say. <o:p></o:p> Sincere simple ignorance is at least innocent and open to the new discoveries but intelectualized ignorance does not admit any new transformative experience.<o:p></o:p> Unfortunately many westerners are satisfied with little intelectual illumination and nothing beyond that but that’s probably beacuse that “beyond” demmands much more dynamic approach. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> I agree with the last part but are you really the doer? Belief or trust can be intuitive, prerequisite for action which in the end gives you the evidence, it doesn't have to be blind or dogmatic. <o:p></o:p> Are you really, as Mahatma Gandhi used to say, “change you wish to see in the world” or are you waiting for somebody else to do the “dirty work”?<o:p></o:p> If I tell what you should have been doing and what many of my fellow bhaktas were doing as part of their sadhana I’m afraid wou will again accuse me for “holier then thou” attitude but nevertehelss I will adress this later in the post.<o:p></o:p> <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--><o:p></o:p> You seem to confuse me with average Christian literalist believer who simply accepts what is written in scriptures without attempting to find some evidence for existence of spiritual realm.<o:p></o:p> While I admit I don’t have evidence for everything written in Vedas and I don’t think anybody does but what I’ve experienced was in accordance with Vedanta and thus logical conclusion is that there is a very good chance that other things are true also.<o:p></o:p> <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--><o:p></o:p> In my case it is not matter of believing. I've had many extraordinary spiritual experiences during Kundalini awakening and when discussing the subjects I'm not in search for an answer to the question whether spiritual or supernatural exist or not.<o:p></o:p> Better question would be which part of it is pre-rational and which supra-rational and how they relate to our physical existence but they are both real.<o:p></o:p> Do these experiences answer all our questions about meaning of life, nature of God , nature of reality. No, but they give you much broader frame of reference when dealing with essentials.<o:p></o:p> <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--><o:p></o:p> But when it comes to attempts to somehow prove reality of spiritual dimension to a skeptic I am faced with frustrating obstacles. <o:p></o:p> Since I experienced it and was even fortunate in some cases to have witnesses who were able to provide feedback and confirmed it I did not feel the need to intelectually process this experience and make it philosophically plasusible for every intelectual I encounter.<o:p></o:p> If it happened to scientists they would probably want to integrate new experiences into their lives in intelectualy more coherent way but I think you will be able to follow and understand my points unless you simply don't want to but then there is no point in continuing this discussion.<o:p></o:p> It may be all reduced to «You lie and I don't believe the word you said» <o:p></o:p> Actually I would almost prefer this since otherwise I would have to write 175 pages of explanations and I would rather do some other things.<o:p></o:p> However I don't think this topic should turn into long back -and--forth debate between two members so if you want to continue this discussion until you're convinced or in other words until we both die of old age just send me PM.<o:p></o:p> <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--><o:p></o:p> When Gopi Krishna was asked why does he focus mostly on psychological aspects of Kundalini process he said that if he wrote about other “paranormal” things he would lose all credibility.<o:p></o:p> I used to write about it but now I’m hesitant and I understand why Gopi Krishna and Sri Aurobindo avoided directly adressing the subject in their mainstream books. In the end only people who would believe you are closest friends who know that you wouldn’ invent such stories.<o:p></o:p> On internet forums such claims provoke stir among skeptics and disbelieve even among sincere sasdhkakas. <o:p></o:p> <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--><o:p></o:p> <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--><!--[endif]--> So what you call “magic” is not really something out of LOTR but it is neverthelses real. It does not feel “magical” at all. <o:p></o:p> It feels like natural extension of this plane.<o:p></o:p> Imagine two-dimensional being walking down the street when suddenly three- dimensional being appears and disappears before him. He would believed he just witnessed the miracle but for three-dimensional being it is just everyday reality. <o:p></o:p> Now, human being is multidimensional. <o:p></o:p> We all actually experienced something of these higher dimensions but we can’t recall it. To bring these experiences in their fullness into memory is impossible due to limitations of 3D mind but we can recall symbolic representation of the experience. To access this state in it’s totality sadhaka must be able to withdraw not only outer but also inner senses. Those who operate during normal mental processes , imagination, visualisation, dreams ...<o:p></o:p> <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--><o:p></o:p> Untrained person lacking psychic sensibility would in this case experience complete darkness, void without any content but experienced meditator would enter into realm of super- consciousnes or samadhi.<o:p></o:p> Should I mention Michio Kaku, String Theory and ten-dimensional reality?<o:p></o:p> Thinking about it gives me a headache but this controversial theory may revolutionize the science. I already have the evidence that supports it and there are many people out there who also experienced higher dimensions. It is really nothing new , it is ancient knowledge translated into new language of science but poetic presentation is actually closer to the true nature of some of these realms.<o:p></o:p> <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--><o:p></o:p> <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--><o:p></o:p> Even among top four exponents of New Atheism movement you have one Sam Harris who is still practicing Buddhistic meditation and who believes there is some good evidence for reincarnation and existence of extradimensional beings and Dan Dennet who is practicioner of Maharishi’s Transcendental Meditation which is I believe technique based on Vedic bija root mantras. So even these hardcore atheists are drawn toward some aspects eastern mysticism and to you it is nothing but “old dirt”.<o:p></o:p>

<!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--><o:p></o:p> Awarenes of the body is not the same as identifying with body as sole reality. No one is denying reality of physical consciousness but one should not live from the physical consiousness believing it is ultimate reality and foundation of consciousness. From the Vedic perspective physical is emergent property of spiritual and the “manual” for this physical vehicle was written on spiritual plane. Firsr realize this Self and then you'll understand what selfishness really is. There are many more subtle manifestation of this tamasic selfishness then you are aware of now. It goes deep into unconsicouss to the very roots of separate egoic existence. It is not even philosophical question. It will hit you like sledge hammer when you enter this realm for the first time and face your "doppelganger". <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--><o:p></o:p> Religions can have tamasic elements as well. Some tantric practices are tamasic, there are elements of lowest guna in Abrahamic religions but that’s another topic. I don’t remember anybody using child’s state of consciousness as example of tamasic consciousness. In Integral philopsohy it is considered to be state of purified vital energy and it was deffinitely my experience but it also depends on your previous incarnations . I’ve had many experiences of subtle plane including OBE during childhood and only after I went through communist indoctrination I felt drawn toward lower states of consciousness but never completely. <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--><o:p></o:p> There are people who has direct experience and knowledge of spiritual planes and you should learn from them. This is Vedic approach. Inquiring and learning from more experienced sadhaka is proper way. You’ve come to spiritual discussion Audarya forum without any knowledge of Vedas and Vedanta. Subject on which many scholars spend their whole lives only to sctratch the sufrace and then when somebody suggests that you should first learn some basics you object. <!--[endif]--><o:p></o:p> It doesn’t really matter whether you believe or not at this moment since you don’t even know what is it that you don’t believe in. First devote some time tu study of Vedanta, learn some Sanskrit terms and then if you choose to reject it you’ll at least have an idea what are you rejecting. When I read some Vedic scripture first I compare different translations, read Sanskrit transliterations, compare different commentaries, contemplate on meaning of particular verse and meditate. <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--><o:p></o:p> Sanskrit terms are extremely diffcult to translate. How can I translate Savikalpa Samadhi or Caitya Puruhsa. to a person who has no experience of these states of being. We are talking about extraordinary experiences which come after many years, perhaps many lives of sadhana and purification. It is not something you realize just by reading a books and speculating but you have to start somewhere. In Bhagavata Dharma path you first humbly approach spiritual authorities, you study scriptures and practice sadhana under their guidance and patiently wait for spiritual revelation. I know , "humbly" doesn't resonate well with atheist but it is absolutely essential. It is the risk you'll have to accept. Now you are just putting everything in the same “religious freaks” box which is typical behaviour of forum atheists nowadays. I have friend who is very interested in science, his knowledge of material sciences surpasses mine by far and not only mine but he is not reductionist. We spent many hours discussing not only Vedic cosmology but also such “esoteric” subjects as astrophysics. Among our favorite subjects are Chernobyl incident, radioactive isotopes, functioning of nuclears reactors. That’s his field and I wouldn’t have anything to say on the subjects if I never made an effort and read hundreds of pages of material. <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--><o:p></o:p> Therefore if you want to discuss Vedanta from philosophical standpoint read at least this excellent book Bija posted for you. There's no need to respond to a post before reading. I'm not capable of presenting Vedanta in such intelectually intriguing and convincing way as Sri Aurobindo. You will benefit more from reading this book then debating with me because It's not easy for me to formulate my thoughts in foreign language. There's no point in agreeing or disagreeing before you've done your homework. After reading come back and then you'll have much better understanding of the things you may read on this forum and also of the people who engage in spiritual practices insipred by Vedanta. But if you want to understand esoteric aspect then you will have to practice sadhana and follow regulative principles. This is the essential part of "spiritual experiment" every serious sadhaka must conduct. <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--><o:p></o:p>If you don’t wan’t anything of this then you should simply ignore “delusional believers” or if you want to criticize you should at least pick some religion you are familiar with, but even the most prominent atheist authors focus only on social aspects of religions never making an effort to find out what lies at the mystical roots of every spiritual path and this is where things start to get really interesting.

English is not my first language and Veda is extremely complex subject. Without some basic knowledge of Sanskrit terms it is impossbile to grasp the meaning. Terms such as Brahman, Caitya Purusha , tamas are not purely philosophical. They correspond to particular states of being, even planes of existence which must be experienced first through witnessing consciousness. <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--><o:p></o:p> General definitition of Tamas is state of inertia but to understand what tamas really is you must also experience it’s opposite Satva. Then you will have complete picture . Tamas is among other things state of ignorance and inertia generated by identifying one’s consciousness with body. Perceiveing oneself as body contemplating on gross physical. Reductionism is tamasic world view but that’s just one example. Tamas can also manifest on pre-rational subtle planes but it's main characteristic is dark inert egoistic consciousness. <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--><o:p></o:p> The very reason why people need invasive medicine and treatments is global materialistic consciousness. By losing direct contact with Supreme humanity becomes vulenrable to hostile tamasic forces which first affect subtle physical sheath and then manifests in gross physical as disease. When humanity embraces Vedic principles in the same way it now embraces materialism (religious people are often just as materialistic and tamasic as atheists) then you will see the change and nature will respond. <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--><o:p></o:p> I’m deffinitely not as compassionate as I should be but I spent my youth during war in my country volunteering at hospitals, psyche wards, with refugees and patients suffering from treminal diseases. When few of us sadhakas came to hospital warden to ask him how we can help he admitted how much he admires our courage beacuse he did not dare to go to the places where we were about to spent many years. <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--><o:p></o:p> <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--><o:p></o:p> Dying person told us that when nurses come to give him medicine he feels their fear and disgust , they were afraid of him, he reminded them of inevitable death, ugliness of death and dying. He also had negative experiences with some Protestant volunteers who only tried to convert him but whan he rejected their faith they all left. <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--><o:p></o:p> Days before he died he told us that when we came , when bhaktas came he felt as if he was engulfed in light because we recognized him as spiritual being not as some broken body condemned to death and nothingness. We spent years doing seva, practiticing sadhana, following regulative principles ,observing celibacy... Severe discipline. Yes , compassion in action but who is acting, who is serving? The Lord is one who is using you as instrumens. That ‘s proper attitude for sadhaka. When you understand this then you will be able to offer some real service. However, atheists should engage in service too but they will not be able to serve as channel for this Light and Grace as long as they perceive human being as body and nothing more .This attitude is offensive and every distressed being intuitively feels this. <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--><o:p></o:p> If you are in India then go and help those people suffering from monsoon floods , if you are in USA I’m sure you can still find some place where you can offer your service. I’m doing what I can in my country but when I move to India in the future I will enagge in service there as well but I’ll try to do it with proper attitude. <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--><o:p></o:p> If I was physician I would never refuse to treat patients even with tamasic medicine but I would tell them about all possible alternatives and suggest them to consider changing their lifestyle, their diets , practicing some meditation but most of all establishing contact with Lord and developing detachment from body. through selfless service or seva. If they choose the other way so be it. I would not interfere with their choice. <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--><o:p></o:p> <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--><o:p></o:p> But when we speak of quality of life we must first define what life is and what is purpose of life . For reductionist quality of physical life, life of sense gratification which has no purpose outside of it’s limited material movements is all that matters. For spiritualist quality of life means quality of consciousness, spiritual evolution of consciousness. Even if you cure the body what are you going to do with this body , this vehicle? Engage in sense gratficication and accumulation of negative karma which will eventualy produce new disease in new vehicle , new birth , new death as so on . This is perspective of Vedanta and if you have hard time understanding this it is only because you never made sincere effort to find out what it is all about. Once you make an effort you will find out that what Vedas teach is beneficial for every human being. <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--><o:p></o:p> Now you’re rejecting it just as I did when I first read Bhagavata. My main influences were skeptics such as Sagan and Clarke and I thought it was all load of typical mumbo-jumbo religious garbage and I wasn’t really politicaly correct in expressing my opinion in public. But fortunately I was wrong. Sometimes you just have to accept you are wrong and foolish and motivated by prejudices instead of knowledge. Ego is always terrified when this imaginary world it built for so many years suddenly crumbles but that’s begining of wisdom and is nothing to be ashamed of. This destructive process will last until the last trace of materialistic egoic consciousness is eliminated. Vedanta is very logical and if you approach it with sincere attitude and put this teachings into practice you willl realize that it is not dogmatic at all. Once the requirements are met you will have the evidence you need. <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--><o:p></o:p> If you have problems with ISKCON translations of scriptures ( I did in the begining) I recommend ( you can find many sites with this free online ebook) Sri Aurobindo’s “Synthesis of Yoga”. He presented scriptures in a way more suited to western intelectuals even though he considered poem Savitri as his true spiritual masterwork. After reading this you will have much better insight into ancient spiritual practices. It is not an easy read, it requires great patience and concentration but if you give it a try you will learn a lot about different types of yoga. <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--><o:p></o:p>

<!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--><o:p></o:p> <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--><o:p></o:p> I don’t have children but I do have extremely negative experiences with western medicine . Great part of childhood I spent at hospitals due to my mother’s constant concerns and her trust in western medicine. I was misdiagnosed in probably nine out of ten cases. The irony is that in the end I got rid of most of my problems by simply changing diet, taking ayurvedic praparations and practicing yoga. <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--><o:p></o:p> <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--><o:p></o:p> Western treatments were in many cases worse then disease itself. I do not condemn people who put their faith in western medicine in extreme conditions but personaly in last 20 years I avoided western tamasic methods of treatment. As a matter of fact it's not the method itself as much as the approach. Some of the methods would work just fine if they could realize that human beings are more then physical bodies and that disease first manifests in subtle body. We (humanity ) created this problems and cannot simply escape individually but there is more and more evidence every day that invasive purely reductionistic approach is not much better then disease they attempt to cure. I predict that in the end they will be forced to abandon their mechanical model and integrate Vedic integral approach in which human being is seen not as body only but as conglomerate of different koshas. When your time comes, when your mission here is done or when you need new physical vehicle you’ll die and it’s better to learn to accept this instead of artificialy prolonging material existence. In some cases when person leads sinful life it is better to leave the body and stop accumulating negative karma. <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--><o:p></o:p> Just for illustration I’ll give one real life example . During Kundalini awakening I received through inner vision information about death of my friend’s mother. She was perfectly healthy at the time but soon she suddenly got ill and nobody was able to make diagnosis. Nobody knew what was happening with her. They said to my friend that her mother seems to be fine and she should recover . Several days after she called me in tears. Her mother died. I knew she was going to die beacuse her psychic being contacted me and told me that it is her time to leave this world and there ‘s nothing anyone can do to prevent it. Therefore , with no knowledge of medicine only through sadhana I was able to get accurate information and this was just one of many extraordinary experiences which occured during yoga sadhana. Acatually, some of the phenomena that occured during Kundalini awakening was so spectacular that it could be recreated only with help of "Star Trek" technology and yet I don't even call these experiences spiritual in true sense. That is why I claim that modern science is degradation of original spiritual science. We are advanced compared to middle- ages but those who were blessed with only glimpse of Vedic knowledge through genuine spiritual experience already know what none of the most educated world’s scientists can even imagine. <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--><o:p></o:p> <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--><o:p></o:p> <!--[endif]--><o:p></o:p> However, if we create healthy environment according to Vedic principles many serious physical and psychological diseases we face today will vanish. Once humanity embraces higher principles of life as guide western reductionistic medicine will become obsolete. But what we did instead was creating unhealthy materialistic environment in which not only physical kosha is under constant attack but also subtle phsysical and mental. Such conditions are responsible for serious health problems and then the very mentality ressponsible for creating such atmosphere will say “ look, we have a cure , if you don’t obey us and accept our methods you’ll die” thus making us their slaves. <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--><o:p></o:p> <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--><o:p></o:p> <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--><o:p></o:p> <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--><!--[endif]--> Regarding Mars expeditions I’m not impressed at all nor do I believe in everything they present as real photos from Mars but the point is you don’t have to build expensive machinery to see what’s going on on other planets You have to step out of body consciousness and only then you ‘ll be able to see what physical eyes or instruments never will. <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--><o:p></o:p> If you surrender yourself to Krishna and practice sadhana sincerely you will be blessed by revelations far more spcectacular then photos of rocky landscape and you will also get feedback to confirm it was not only in your imagination. I'm not talking about symbolic sadhana but rigorous discipline and renunciation. Unwavering faith and devotion, complete disregard for material comforts and "pleasures of the flesh". Then after you experience spiritual dimension you will never again call Vedas primitive and obsolete. Vedic knowledge is suported by experience of thousands of practicioners and mystics. It is not supported but materialistic ignorants beacuse they are not even capable of observing the essential regulative principles. We sholud never forget that it is impossible to understand Veda without initiation in sacred knowledge and without sadhana. Otherwise all you will get from reading Vedic scriptures is some nice poetry and descriptions of obscure rituals meant for karmis. Only to initiated sincere sadhaka the true meaning of Veda will be revealed. If one is not willing to make that leap then the true meaning will remain hidden forever. <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--><o:p></o:p> <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--><o:p></o:p>

Who is truly practicing what Vedas teach? We can’t even understand the true meaning of Vedic scriptures as long as mind is engulfed in tamo and rajo guna. We are lazy when it comes to introspection, renunciation and practicing what we preach. There are many books and religions derived from Vedas because there are many spiritual planes and different kinds of realization. Perfection or liberation for bhakta is not same as liberation for Buddhist or advaitin. To each his own. Esoteric vedanta does not have to teach about metabolism, physics and "Blackberries" because it’s goal is liberation from material world through withdrawal of the senses or engaging the senses in service of Lord in very simple and innocent way. It doesn’t even have to teach about fundamental laws of physics because it is said that they are all derived from Divine will and can also be affected by our own will once we manage to conquer the senses and materialistic mind. They only need to teach about one fundamental law and that is Divine will. But still they accommodate even those who are unable to grasp the higher truths and guide them step by step so that they can eventually rise to a spiritual platform. Once Lord withdraws His energies there will be no more manifested physical world nor physical laws. This is what Vedic literature teach but if one wants to artificially manipulate matter within the laws of the Lord’s Lila there is a process but this process does not bring one closer to liberation. It may even envelope the person in deeper illusion. Even famous physicist Karl Heisenberg after experiencing samadhi concluded that physics is not important since everything is illusion. It doesn’t even matter how material universe operates. What matters is your spiritual advancement and purification and to achieve this you have to follow the principles one of the four yogas. But still, correct way of doing science is only through Lord’s grace. First you must have spiritual realization and then if Lord inspires you may engage in outward activities in proper way. Science should be practiced only with right attitude and by virtuous person, and when it is done this way the results will point to existence spiritual reality, parallel dimensions, subtle universes... but still it won’t bring you closer to Vishnu unless you do your homework and renounce egoistic desires and cravings of senses. In the end it is always your own battle you have to win. Nobody can renounce stupidity and selfishness and surrender to Lord for you. Infatuation and fascination with material advancement, mental speculation and technology is great obstacle. It binds one’s consciousness to the movements of lower mechanical mind which then presents itself as ultimate reality and creates situations where not only you will commit sins but you will lose ability to repent and corrects yourself. Bhakta can make mistake, even grave mistake but the very nature of materialistic person is sin. They are wrong in the very center of being even if they outwardly may appear virtuous. Their psychic being or soul is in the state of hibernation, unmanifested and it is exactly this manifestation and inlfuence of psychic being in mental , vital and physical human which makes difference between sura and asura. This is what happens when we close your heart to God and His true pure bhaktas and instead embrace philosophy of materialistic rascals fascinated with their manipulation with material elements.

I read that Mira was very disapointed in Aurvovillians and even made remark about their animalistic state of consciousness. It must have been almost forty years ago when she made that remark so one can imagine in what state are residents of Auroville now when there is no living spiritual authority to correct them. "A relationship that is not only cordial but friendly with the inhabitants of the neighbouring village is absolutely indispensable. For the realisation of Auroville the first step is to establish a true human fraternity - any shortcoming in this regard is a grave mistake which can compromise the whole work." Mother Mira 1971

I remember being aware of good and evil when I was only 4. I couldn't stand cruelty toward animals even though I was exposed to it almost daily living in village. I knew it was wrong to kill animal for food. One more interesting thing is how I discriminated between good and bad people. I had no respect for atheists at such young age even though I didn't even knew what atheism was. I intuitively felt something was wrong with them. As if something was lacking. I remember how I felt they were so immature and foolish when I myself was 4. I even tried to trick them and offend them whenever opportunity arose but when I was around religious people I always shown them respect. When my grandmother ( deeply religious person) scolded me I always took it to heart. She radiated authority, but when my atheist parents tried to control me I would go completely wild, throwing all kind of stuff at them ( even knives), running and hiding in woods. Later when my grandmother died I started to treat them better but still had zero respect though they weren't really bad parent's at all. I've just felt that somehow they were incomplete human beings lacking something essential. It's not that I didn't care for them. I loved them but could never accept they authority regarding important matters in life. I know few sadhakas and all of them were compasisonate being from early childhood even those raised in atheistic abusive families.

I've just listened to Michael Cremo's radio interview during which he mentioned that nether "undeground" regions described in Puranas are ilumined by the "jewels on the heads of serpents." Now, don't you think that rishis actually described modern street lamps? They look exactly like giant cobras with shining jewels on their heads. Perhaps we shouldn't take everything written in Puranas literally, especially parts dealing with Kali yuga description.

I've experienced this state which gyanis call enlightenment, it lasted for two weeks in full intensity and it still sometimes emerges. It is state of neutral "void", separation from the material notion of personality, seeing the fundaments of manifestation as pure consciousness. But I also on one occasion went above the manifestation in the world of divine beings, more precisely Mother Durga and rishis and I must say I prefered this realization by far. According to Integral yoga, realization of neutral Nirvanic state is not the end but the begining of real spirituality. It is the gateway to the world beyond. Some sadhakas must go through this stage because it is the only way for them to transcend their material personality and desires and see them in their true light. Thomas Mellencamp I think also wrote about this experience of pure light where there was no God, only undivided consciosness but he also realized there is more beyond it.. Some prefer this state to personal realization but I felt during this gyanic experience as if I was in some kind of waiting room, waiting for something spectacular to happen. However, I wouldn't want to remain in this state forever. There is also danger of remaining locked in the state of depersonalization and derealization which is the worst thing that could happen to a young sadhaka. My experience with gyana meditation was mostly negative or neutral at the best but I know people who claim this form of sadhana helped them a lot. These experiences of non-dual consciousness are not Nirvana or final gyana yoga realization but only glimpses because samskaras remain but some western sadhakas are very impatient to become spiritual teachers after one such incomplete realization. This state is realized through negative meditation when you focus on negativity or non-being trying to go beyond the matter,and according to Integral Yoga it does not lead to God but to Nirvana and not many yogis are able or willing to leave this state of being and go beyond. It is much easier today to focus on negativity and wish for the end of material existence which is why buddhism and mayavada philosophy are more popular among the western intelectuals.

This was not my conclusion but only an example which ilustrates absurdity of purely materialistic philosophy. Scientists allways speak of survival and conquering the nature as the ultimate goals but claim that at the same time their philosophy includes some high humanistic moral code. This moral code however will work only in community which is willing to adopt it from which naturally follows that others will be percieved as threat.Human beings are also part of the nature and thus if one group manage to conquer , enslave or destroy the other it should be regarded as successull. Therefore , the moral code or the law can only be established by being outside of the system , by God. If not , then the only way to harmony is creating the society of identical clones which will lack any motivation and dynamism and will not last long. Regarding pure Vaishnava's power of harmonization we can clearly see from many examples in scriptures that with some atheistic personalities such as Hiranyakashipu it does not work. Even some far less powerfull atheist can create much disturbance for sincere bhaktas and our duty is to fight them with logic or in extreme cases with "sword".

What they actually achieved by this experiment is nothing but simulated autoscopy. When you are out of material body you naturally see your body and surroundings and by simulating autoscopy you experience something quite similar and thus there is sensation of detachment from the body. Depersonalization and derealization are felt during long virtual reality sessions or even after playing video games for many hours. I can't see how these experiments are revolutionary. Every person playing some realistic first person video game for 12 hours every day experienced sensation of detachment from the body, dimmed perception of outside world and numbness of senses. It naturally occurs when you identify through sugestion with some other person especially in such realistic enviroment with first person perspective. So called scientist observe reactions in brain during some experiences trying to prove that consciuosness is product of mere chemistry while this "chemistry" never existed anywhere else except in their own consciuousness. They start from the the premise that their brains are wired properly and ours are defective and thus we hallucinate. But we could say that their brains are actually defective ones and by accepting their standpoint humanity globally induces brain patterns that reuslt in halucinatory experience of matter as the sole reality and losing the sight of subtle spiritual truths. This is quite valid standpoint. Who actually decided that speculative mental activity is natural state of mind or the brain? We are forced to accept this to survive in their world and this way we follow the rules of their game. Even on a most basic materialistic level scientific outlook is just one possibility enforced upon all ther others. Spiritual people are accused by materialistic scientist of being hallucinating liars, primitives living in illusion and we are supposed to hang our heads in shame and not strike back. These are the most severe accusations. Even if we have a proof it won't metter because if they can't use their materialistic method then it is as good as nothing. Every being is striving for happiness and shaping it's surrouding accordingly so the fundamental rule for the "human-animal" of the science would be creating a world in which we interact only with those with similar brain patterns and destroying or enslaving all the others. Therefore, religious "human -animals" must wipe out scientific "human animals" because they cannot achieve their ideal while those are present and dominating the world. They would have no right to complain because that is how the species survive and evolve . By destroying their opponents and shaping the environment according to their desires and ideals. If there is no God and soul then all morality is artificial , we can create our own code to seccure our survival and wellbeing. If we adopt scientific approach then radical Muslims have every right to wipe out all the others opposing entities to secure happy life for their community. They would have perfect right to choose their own method for achieving their ideal.

Hi Avinash. When first experience occured I wasn't practicing any form of sadhana. Others happened much later while I was doing some really hardcore combination of traditional Sankhya and Kundalini yoga. I stopped after Kundalini awakening and God knows what would have happened to me if I continued with such an extreme practice without guidance.

I experienced OBE after operation and it was not in my imagination. I was lucid and awake moving around the room seeing things from different perspective. I actually saw the nurse from the behind while she was trying to calm down little boy lying in the bed. That boy was me. He was crying and waving his hands violently. I've seen all that standing above and behind the nurse. Pehaps that would be not much of a proof for the scientist but once during a traumatic event I felt intense fear and projected myself to the safe place in the small city mile ahead and person standing there saw me clearly appearing at the exact place I was trying to get to. Now if I never talked to him I would never knew I actually managed to project myself. It was not sensation of flying to the distant place like in some fairytale. It was more like losing the centre of ego within the body but at the same time retaining the full awareness as the witness beyond the mind and senses. My OBE experience happened in waking consciousness.It wasn't imagination or hallucination ( I experienced hallucinations and it was nothing like this) but quite normal waking state. Actually It felt more real then this inside the body consciousness, there was sense of freedom and detachment from worldly worries in this subtle body. OBE is actualy not spiritual but subtle physical experience. You can read about subtle physical realm in many Sri Aurobindo's books. I also have a friend who experienced OBE while he was walking down the street. It was absolutely real and quite similar to the one Suchandra describes. I know many can't stand c/p passages from the e-books but the following are of tremenodus value for understanding subtle physical realm. " No doubt, the subtle physical is closest to the physical, and most like it.<o:p></o:p> But yet the conditions are different and the thing too different.<o:p></o:p> For instance, the subtle physical has a freedom, plasticity, intensi-<o:p></o:p> ty, power, colour, wide and manifold play (there are thousands of<o:p></o:p> things there that are not here) of which, as yet, we have no possibi-<o:p></o:p> lity on earth." "The vision was seen through the physical eyes but by the subtle<o:p></o:p> physical consciousness; in other words, there was an imposition of one<o:p></o:p> consciousness upon another. After a certain stage of development, this<o:p></o:p> capacity of living in the ordinary physical consciousness and yet<o:p></o:p> having superadded to it another and more subtle sense, vision,<o:p></o:p> experience becomes quite normal. A little concentration is enough to<o:p></o:p> bring it; or, even, it happens automatically without any<o:p></o:p> concentration.<o:p></o:p> As the flower was a subtle physical object, not entirely material<o:p></o:p> in the ordinary sense of the word (though quite substantial and<o:p></o:p> material in its own plane, not an illusion), a camera, would not be<o:p></o:p> able to detect it - except in the case of one of those abnormal<o:p></o:p> interventions by which a subtle form has been thrown upon the material<o:p></o:p> plate.<o:p></o:p> It could be sensed in a dark room, though not so easily, and it<o:p></o:p> would not then have so vivid an appearance - unless you are able to<o:p></o:p> bring out something of the light of the subtle physical plane to<o:p></o:p> surround it and give it its natural medium.<o:p></o:p> If seen with the eyes shut, it would be no longer a subtle<o:p></o:p> physical form, but an object or formation of the vital, mental or<o:p></o:p> other plane - unless, indeed, the inner consciousness had progressed<o:p></o:p> so far as to be able to project itself into the physical planes; but<o:p></o:p> this is a rare and, in most cases, a late development.<o:p></o:p> 2. It is not, usually, the object that vanishes, it is the<o:p></o:p> consciousness that changes. Owing to lack of sustained capacity or<o:p></o:p> lack of training, one is not able to keep the subtle physical vision<o:p></o:p> which is what was really seeing the object. This subtle physical<o:p></o:p> vision comes easiest in the moment between light sleep and<o:p></o:p> waking-either when one just comes out of the sleep or when one is just<o:p></o:p> going into it. But one can train oneself to have it when one is quite wide awake." <o:p></o:p> Sri Aurobindo Letters on Yoga