Question about dinosaurs
Q: Did dinosaurs really exist? In which yuga did they live? Is
the Earth same after a yuga ends and a new one starts? Is
there a destruction?
A: Sure they did. Can you imagine a hoax of such a colossal
dimension? Also the lore from all over the world knows about
some kind of big animals like dragons.
As far as I know they are found on all continents. Which yuga
is hard to say but in the Bhagavatam there is at least one
possible allusion to them (8.10.10-12). There is probably more
in other Puranas. During my study of North American Native
lore I found a hint in Ojibwa tribe legends that their
predecessors lived together with huge animals which were
destroyed by a comet.
Destructions (pralaya) of various dimensions happen regularly,
after every maha-yuga, manvantara, kalpa and dvi-parardha
(Brahma's life span) and at some special occasions. See SB
8.24 (Matsya-lila). About how Earth changes after each
particular pralaya there is not much said in sastra as far as
I know.
Q: Srila Prabhupada doubted that dinosaurs ever existed,
whereas much evidence is available to at least support the
view that dinosaurs did once exist on this planet. He also
stated that there was no such thing as 'extinction' of
species. Please elucidate.
A: Below you'll find compilation of everything recorded what
Srila Prabhupada said about the dinosaurs. I will now try to
comment on it a little bit.
First, he didn't deny their existence. He mentioned that the
existence of big forms of animals is recorded in the Vedas
(super-eagles - Srimad Bhagavatam 5.23.3, timingila
super-whales - SB 8.7.18, 8.10.10-12, 10.1.5-7). SB 8.10.10-12
mentions "big lizards" (whatever they are). The Vedas also
mention that with the progression of time the life forms
become smaller.
In general he didn't consider the matter of their existence or
nonexistence very important. He repeatedly stressed that our
sense perception is imperfect and that there are many life
forms which we don't know about.
This is very true. Humans actually know quite a small portion
of the land on this Earth, what to speak of the sea. Every
year there are many "new" organisms discovered and some of
them are quite big (reptiles, fish, birds, mammals). Just in
this century there have been discovered many big animals like
a species of jungle hog from Vietnam, a species of cat from
Ryu-kyu archipelago, a big species of shark from the Hawaii
islands, the onza (an animal from Mexico resembling the puma),
the giant octopus from the ocean abysses around Bahamas, giant
species of calmars etc.
Srila Prabhupada also said that no species of life becomes
extinct.
It is important to remember that the Vedic definition of
species is different from the modern one. The Vedas mention
8,400,000 species of life and all of them are repeatedly
created after every partial or total cosmic devastation.
Regarding the survival of the "living fossils" there is an
example of the Latimeria fish which exactly resembles the rock
imprints of the fossil Devonian species etc.
To study the possibility of existence of such animals a group
of scientists (mostly biologists) formed a new scientific
discipline called a cryptozoology. They have their regular
meetings, they organize expeditions to the remote corners of
the world and they publish the Journal of Cryptozoology in
which they discuss the existence of unknown (mainly big) life
forms from all over the world whose existence is supported by
ancient writings, local lore and both native and non-native
witnesses (soldiers, tourists, scientists etc.) There are also
websites dedicated to this field of study.
On their "wanted" list there are several species of hominids
from all over the world (known locally as yetti, almas,
sasquatch, big foot etc.), great dangerous cats of an
above-lion size from the jungles of equatorial Africa (some of
them with huge fangs), great species of reptiles or dinosaurs
from the oceans and lakes (e.g. Loch Ness in Scotland, Lake
Champlain in Canada, etc.) and the jungles (Africa, South
America), flying dinosaurs resembling Pteranodon and other
types (Zaire, Southwest USA), and many other.
Because this type of research, if successful, can seriously
damage the accepted paradigms of Darwinian evolution of
species, the establishment science views it with incredulity
and suspicion. Therefore the cryptozoology is a "marginal"
science.
Vaisnava scientists, on the other hand, use this type of
evidence to show that the Vedic version is correct. The book
Forbidden Archaeology by Richard Thompson (Sadaputa Das) and
Michael Cremo (Drutakarma Das) from the Bhaktivedanta
Institute was a breakthrough in this regard. If you have some
questions for our scientists write to Bhaktivedanta Institute
<bvi@afn.org>.
Room Conversation, Hyderabad, April 14, 1975
750414RC.HYD
Devotee: Srila Prabhupada, the other day we were talking about
proving different assumptions through archeological findings.
Prabhupada: That is also bogus. Archeological findings is
bogus.
Brahmananda: But it seems that big skeletons of all these big
dinosaurs...
Prabhupada: That we have already information. We have got
timingila. Just like big house. They can swallow up, what is
called?
Devotee: Whale. Whale.
Prabhupada: Whale (indistinct).
Tamala Krsna: No but these dinosaurs move on the land. They're
not fish. And they're very big and we have information...
Prabhupada: So what is to you? You are also a created being.
He's also created being. That's the (indistinct). You are not
creator of the (indistinct)
Tamala Krsna: But you say that there was more intelligent life
previously, whereas we see these dinosaurs were previously.
Prabhupada: But you do not see, you simply imagine.
Tamala Krsna: No. We have the skeletons.
Devotee: We have the bones, the bones of animals.
Prabhupada: But that's all right. There was a big animal,
that's all. Just like you are a foolish animal, so there was a
big animal. What is the difference? They are animals.
Tamala Krsna: But we have skeletons showing the men at that
time also and their brains were very tiny.
Prabhupada: That you say. But I don't believe it. I have not
seen.
Morning Walk, Los Angeles, June 8, 1976
760608MW.LA
Ramesvara: Srila Prabhupada, I was once told by some devotees
that you had said in some previous age of Kali, the dinosaurs,
gigantic animals, were on the earth.
Prabhupada: I said?
Ramesvara: They say that you said. (laughs)
Prabhupada: (laughs) I never said. I never bother with these
nonsense things.
Ramesvara: They have got so many bones in the museums showing
these gigantic animals.
Prabhupada: Not gigantic. There are bones. But that animal is
still there, whalefish.
Ramesvara: Whalefish.
Prabhupada: Oh, yes. Very big body.
Ramesvara: Some have become extinct.
Prabhupada: Why they should be extinct?
Hrdayananda: No longer on the earth.
Ramesvara: No longer on this planet.
Prabhupada: (too much noise) Not necessarily. They are within
the ocean.
Hari-sauri: No, other animals.
Prabhupada: What other animals?
Ramesvara: Those gigantic, they called them...
Hrdayananda: Brontosaurus.
Ramesvara: Tyrannosaurus.
Gigantic animals, they say are meat-eaters.
Hrdayananda: Dinosaurus.
Hari-sauri: Tetrasaurus.
Prabhupada: Another imagination. These are actual facts.(?)
Hari-sauri: They just made up different compositions of bones
and then drew some outlines on them.
Prabhupada: Yes. They are imagination.
Hari-sauri: But you said in Hawaii though that there are some
animals that are as big as skyscrapers?
Prabhupada: Yes, these are birds. It is far from this earth
though. They travel from one planet to another.
Ramesvara: So these bones that they have found of these
gigantic animals, they were all living underneath the water.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Ramesvara: Not on the land.
Prabhupada: Maybe. But the list is there: jalaja nava-laksani.
There are 900,000 different forms, and how many we have seen?
There is information in the sastra. Pasavas trimsal-laksani.
Three million different types of animals.
Hari-sauri: We've seen a few hundred at most.
Prabhupada: That's all. (laughs) That is also doubtful.
Slideshow Discussion, Washington D.C., July 3, 1976
760703SS.WDC
Svarupa Damodara: Do we know that in detail, Srila Prabhupada?
What type of species are extinct? Not all the species extinct.
As it is during Brahma's day, that partial annihilation,
devastation, now some species are extinct?
Prabhupada: No species extinct. What you are reading? This is
garbage.(?)
Svarupa Damodara: The physical forms.
Prabhupada: No, nothing is extinct. Everything is going on.
Svarupa Damodara: At that point, they are going to come up
with the point that "How about dinosaurs?" They are going to
ask like that.
Prabhupada: That is imagination, where is dinosaur finding.
Svarupa Damodara: They say they have all the bones.
Prabhupada: No, they are describing maybe another animal. That
is existing. That is Timingila, they can swallow up big, big
whale fishes. That big, bones, they are living still. Nothing
is extinct. They are already there.
Rupanuga: Did these dinosaurs exist, or is it just their
imagination?
Prabhupada: The big animal exists. I call it dinosaur or
finosaur, that is your choice. Big animals existing.
Timingila, I said the name, Timingila, still exist.
Rupanuga: Still exist.
Prabhupada: Oh, yes. They are always existing. Water
elephants. There are elephants in water. Everything.
Rupanuga: So there is no such thing as extinction.
Prabhupada: No extinction, there is no question of extinction.
Rupanuga: If these animals were on this planet some millions
of years ago, they are still here, is that correct?
Prabhupada: Yes. What do you know what are there within the
water? You can take information from the sastras. It is not
possible for you to see and go into the water, how big, big
animals are there.
Hari-sauri: But it's possible that an animal may disappear
from one planet, but still be on another planet, though, like
that.
Prabhupada: No.
Hari-sauri: Because they claim that even within recorded
history...
Prabhupada: They claim everything. That is... There is no
question. Svarupa Damodara: (indistinct) fossil, they are
called fossil record. Prabhupada: That is another thing. You
can get a dead animal's body, but what is that?
Svarupa Damodara: They claim that many species are extinct.
Prabhupada: How they are extinct?
Hari-sauri: Well, like, they say that within modern history,
Prabhupada: First thing is they are all imperfect speculators.
So what is the value of their sport? We don't take any value
of it.
Rupanuga: They don't know where these animals are, that's all.
Prabhupada: They, simply like child, they are speculating. If
he's
imperfect, then what is the value of his speculation? There is
no value.
Svarupa Damodara: But then what happens at the time of partial
devastation? At the end of Manu, the partial devastation, what
happens to the species?
Prabhupada: Happens means these different ways become
destroyed, but again, during creation, they come in.
Morning Walk New York, July 12, 1976
760712MW.NY
Ramesvara: They are convinced that dinosaurs, these gigantic
animals, were living on this planet millions of years ago.
They found some bones, and they have created the form of the
animal body.
Tamala Krsna: Is it true that there were big dinosaur bodies?
Prabhupada: If they were, it is still now.
Tamala Krsna: Oh, wow.
Prabhupada: We don't say it is extinct.
Tamala Krsna: But you've explained that even if not here then
it must be on another planet.
Prabhupada: Yes, another. This planet, what you have seen?
Ramesvara: That's the point, what we have seen about this
planet? Devotee (1): Could still be here. They found one in,
where is that? In Ireland?
Prabhupada: Cannot be extinct, that is not possible.
Devotee (1): In that lake?
Tamala Krsna: But do you think they were on this planet?
Prabhupada: No, no, may be on this planet, but it doesn't
matter that it is extinct. You have not seen.
Tamala Krsna: No, that's a fact.
Ramesvara: Their idea is that at that time man was living in
the form of half monkey, half man in a cave, and gradually he
evolved to become more civilized.
Prabhupada: That is still there. Kinnaras. Kinnaras means it
is
doubtful whether he is man or monkey.
Tamala Krsna: Wow.
Prabhupada: There is a Kinnara-loka. Kimpurusa. Kinnara. They
are still existing. It is not that they are finished.
Hari-sauri: I was reading a magazine when we were on the
plane, and it was describing this type of monkey man, that
they are being called, they existed in snow wastes.
Prabhupada: Or what is called? The big...?
Tamala Krsna: Orangutan, gorilla.
Prabhupada: Gorilla, they are like men.
Tamala Krsna: Yes, they are. Very much like men. We see them
in the zoo.
Prabhupada: They have got their senses like men.
Hari-sauri: There's another species they call the Yetti. They
say it exists in the Himalayan regions. But they've not been
able to capture one because, uh... But there's been many
citings and reportings of it.
Q. Thanks for the mail, it was really interesting. But still I
found it very confusing, it seems to me that Srila Prabhupada
was contradicting himself (first saying that it's not possible
that some species might be extinct here and exist on other
planets and then saying that it's possible) and he didn't
really answer those questions, but pushed them away and
started putting down Western scientists. So my desire to know
about it is not yet satisfied.
A: This is a bit complex issue to deal with as there is really
not much said in the sastras about the dinos. Sastras, our
main reference, are not to be used as scientific
encyclopedias. Their main point is the spiritual knowledge.
I don't think Srila Prabhupada really contradicted himself -
he never said any species become extinct. He stressed that the
exploration of the Earth is far from being complete so no one
can say that some species 'extinct' in one place can't survive
in another place (or a planet for that matter).
The nature of these conversation was pretty informal and
depended a lot on the context (which disciples were present
etc.). SP sometimes sounded harsh to reprimand his disciples
to disentangle them from their conditioning. The point is that
this is guru's business. The outsiders may consider it
improper or dogmatic but they are in a different position as
they didn't accepted the discipleship. With them therefore SP
dealt in a different way.
Srila Prabhupada was not a scientist and thus didn't feel like
getting into these matters too much ('pushing them away' if
you wish). He many times said that he knows nothing about the
western science but that he can challenge it on the most
important point: the origin of life (from life, not from
matter). If the 'life from matter' theory is disproved the
whole structure built on it will crumble. SP didn't like the
arrogance of the modern scientists which is completely against
the Vedic approach where knowledge leads to humility and
wanted to expose them as ignorant according to the Vedic
standard ('putting them down'). On the other hand he
appreciated those few of modern scientists who actually took
this humble stance (like Einstein).
Ultimately he was not attacking science to becomes famous, to
feel superior or for fun. He worried about the people who
believe it unconditionally and are stuck in the materialistic
way of life which aggravates their suffering. Thus he wanted
them to be freed from their blind faith in science which leads
them on the road to hell (as Chris Rhea sings).
© 2001 - 2003 VEDA - Bhaktivedanta Book Trust, authors and Jan
Mares