Sarva gattah

1. - By virtue of His internal energy, <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> exists in Himself with His spiritual paraphernalia.

2. - By means of His marginal energy (tatastha sakti), <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> exhibits Himself as the living entities.

3. - And by means of His external energy <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> exhibits Himself as material energy.

4. - We eternally exist as independent parts and parcels of Krishna as His marginal energy, also known as His marginal living entities or Jiva-tatastha’s.

<st1:place w:st="on"></st1:place>

<st1:place w:st="on">5. - Krishna is</st1:place> the cause of all causes, the personification of the internal energy and the facilitator and maintainer of His external material energy.

6 - Tatastha is not a region in some ‘in-between’ place, plain or impersonal location in the middle of the spiritual creation and the material creation.

7. - Jiva souls are not being constantly “impersonally” generated and created from the brahmajyoti. We are eternal living beings with no beginning or end, as the Bhagavad gita tells us

8. - We are perpetual jiva souls with no commencement or termination, as the Bhagavad gita tells us.

9. - The marginal living entities (jiva-tatastha’s) are endlessly under the influence of free will that can choose between serving Lord Krishna in Goloka, or be a slave to His (as the Maha-Vishnu expansion) illusionary energy in His mahat-tattva or material creation.

10. - Due to the eternal present in Goloka, our authentic everlasting nitya-siddha bodily higher self characteristic of our jiva tatastha, is always serving Krishna, regardless.

11. - However, we can choose to ignore <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> and not be aware of who we really and (nitya-baddha) and take shelter of the perishable inferior energy or mahat-tattva material creation of Maha-Vishnu.

12. - This inferior material energy, like a cloud that covers the sun, covers our awareness of who we really are in the perpetual ‘present’. And puts us in the illusion of past, present and future that’s effect is decay and forgetfulness.

13. - There are only two types of living entities, Visnu tattva and Jiva Tattva

14. - Tatastha does not refer to a place; it does not possess a locative meaning in the sense of being in a particular spot. Tatastha has an ontological meaning.

15. - Tatastha s’akti is not a position; it refers to the jiva soul’s sovereignty as an individual living being under the influence of either the <st1:place w:st="on">Superior</st1:place> energy or the inferior energy eternally.

16. - The jiva is a sakti of the Lord, exists as neither Cit Sakti nor as Maya Sakti, we exist in between these two categories of saktis, and therefore we are called Tatastha.

17. - The place where water, as in a river an ocean or lake, where it meets the land, that is called tata.

18. - The Cit Sakti is represented by the water and the Maya Sakti us represented by the land. Since we are neither the Maya Sakti nor the Cit Sakti, neither the water nor the land, we are called tatastha, or the in-between the water and the land.

19. - The tide can cause us to be submerged in water or the tide can retreat and we can become left on the land. The jiva can be influenced and come under the dominion of the Cit Sakti or of the Maya Sakti.

20. - Some claim that there is a third type of living entity whom they refer to as sakti-tattva, they claim that Radha and her plenary expansions belong to that third category and that they are not Visnu Tattva, the fact is that Sri Radha and her plenary expansions are both Isvara-Tattva (Isvari) or Visnu-Tattva and sakti-Tattva.

21. - Sri Radha is the not only the primary sakti of the Lord she is also identical to the Lord. She is Visnu Tattva.

22. - The full possible expression of the jiva tatastha, is within the eternal ‘present’ of Goloka, we, the Jiva tatastha are expressed there as who we really are in the perpetual ‘present’ as our perpetual identity, personality and individuality that is endlessly serving beautiful Krishna in our perpetual ‘svarupa’ as nitya siddha.

From Srimad Bhagavatam 6.19.13

guna-vyaktir iyam devi

vyanjako guna-bhug bhavan

tvam hi sarva-sariry atma

srih sarirendriyasayah

nama-rupe bhagavati

pratyayas tvam apasrayah

Mother Lakshmi, who is here, is the reservoir of all spiritual qualities, whereas You manifest and enjoy all these qualities. Indeed, You are actually the enjoyer of everything. You live as the Supersoul of all living entities, and the goddess of fortune is the form of their bodies, senses and minds. She also has a holy name and form, whereas You are the support of all such names and forms and the cause for their manifestation.

PURPORT

Madhvacarya, the acarya of the Tattvavadis, has described this verse in the following way: “Vishnu is described as yajna personified, and mother Lakshmi is described as spiritual activities and the original form of worship. In fact, they represent spiritual activities and the Supersoul of all yajna. Lord Vishnu is the Supersoul even of Lakshmidevi, but no one can be the Supersoul of Lord Vishnu, for Lord Vishnu Himself is the spiritual Supersoul of everyone.”

According to Madhvacarya, there are two tattvas, or factors. One is independent, and the other is dependent. The first tattva is the Supreme Lord, Vishnu, and the second is the jiva-tattva. Lakshmidevi, being dependent on Lord Vishnu, is sometimes counted among the jivas. The Gaudiya Vaishnavas, however, describe Lakshmidevi in accordance with the following two verses from the Prameya-ratnavali of Baladeva Vidyabhushana. The first verse is a quotation from the Vishnu Purana.

nityaiva sa jagan-mata

vishnoh srir anapayini

yatha sarva-gato vishnus

tathaiveyam dvijottama

vishnoh syuh saktayas tisras

tasu ya kirtita para

saiva sris tad-abhinneti

praha sishyan prabhur mahan

“O best of the brahmanas, Lakshmiji is the constant companion of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Vishnu, and therefore she is called anapayini. She is the mother of all creation. As Lord Vishnu is all-pervading, His spiritual potency, mother Lakshmi, is also all-pervading.” Lord Vishnu has three principal potencies — internal, external and marginal. Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu has accepted para-sakti, the spiritual energy of the Lord, as being identical with the Lord. Thus she is also included in the independent vishnu-tattva.”

In the Kanti-mala commentary on the Prameya-ratnavali there is this statement:

nanu kvacit nitya-mukta jivatvam lakshmyah svikritam, tatraha — praheti. nityaiveti padye sarva-vyapti-kathanena kalakashthety adi-padya-dvaye, suddho ‘pity ukta ca mahaprabhuna svasishyan prati lakshmya bhagavad-advaitam upadishtam. kvacid yat tasyas tu dvaitam uktam, tat tu tad-avishta-nitya-mukta jivam adaya sangatamas tu.

“Although some authoritative Vaishnava disciplic successions count the goddess of fortune among the ever-liberated living entities (jivas) in Vaikuntha, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, in accordance with the statement in the Vishnu Purana, has described Lakshmi as being identical with the vishnu-tattva. The correct conclusion is that the descriptions of Lakshmi as being different from Vishnu are stated when an eternally liberated living entity is imbued with the quality of Lakshmi; they do not pertain to mother Lakshmi, the eternal consort of Lord Vishnu.”

In his his Govinda Bhasya commentary on the Vedanta Sutra, Baladeva Vidhyabhusana adds some more to this:

The Supreme Lord is identical with each of His forms. They are all Him. That a certain form of the Lord is His original form, or an expansion of that form, or an expansion of the expansion is determined only by how much of His powers the Lord chooses to display when He manifests that form. Only in that way are some forms of the Lord considered higher and others less high. The great devotees of the Lord declare:

The Lord’s forms are considered greater or lesser on the basis of how much of His transcendental power the Lord chooses to manifest when He reveals them.

Because she is not different from the Supreme Lord, Goddess Laksmi is also all pervading. In the Smriti-sastra it is said:

“Goddess Laksmi is the mother of the worlds. She is the constant companion of Lord Visnu. As Lord Visnu is all pervading, so is she.”

To think that Goddess Laksmi is different from Lord Visnu, but still all-pervading, is a false, a heretical idea. In this way the idea that Goddess Laksmi is an individual spirit soul, like the many millions of other individual spirit souls is refuted. As Lord Visnu has limitless transcendental qualities, so does Goddess Laksmi. In the scriptures it is said:

“O Goddess, even if we had tongues like the demigod Brahma, we still could not describe all Your transcendental qualities. O Lotus-eyed Goddess Laksmi, please do not ever abandon your devotees.”

When Lord Visnu assumes different forms, Goddess Laksmi also assumes different forms and follows Him. In the scriptures it is said:

“When Lord Visnu assumes the form of a demigod, Goddess Laksmi assumes the form of a demigoddess. When He assumes the form of a human man, she assumes the form of a human woman. In this way she assumes a form to match the form of Lord Visnu.”

Sri Radha is the origin of all the forms of Goddess Laksmi. Sri Krsna is the origin of all the forms of Lord Visnu. In the Purusa-bodhini Upanisad it is said:

“In the <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:place w:st="on"><st1:PlaceType w:st="on">land</st1:PlaceType> of <st1:PlaceName w:st="on">Gokula</st1:PlaceName></st1:place> in Mathura-mandala, Lord Krsna resides. At His two sides are Radha and Candravali.”

There it is also said:

“Laksmi, Durga, and the Lord’s potencies are expansions of Sri Radha.”

So the plenary expansions of Sri Radha do not belong to a third category of living entity called sakti-tattva. They are sakti-tattva but that refers to the principle of their being the hladini-sakti and the swarupa-sakti of the Lord, which are identical to the Lord.

Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura writes in his Sri Tattva Sutra:

In Visnu Purana (1.22.53) it is said:

“Just as the illumination of a fire, which is situated in one place, is spread over, the energies of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Parabrahman, are spread all over the universe.”*

In the Markandeya Purana, Devi-mahatmya, the sage explains:

“O king, now I will describe to you the glories of the goddess. By her power she sustains the entire world.

“She is the potency of Lord Visnu. From her comes transcendental knowledge. You and many others have attained transcendental knowledge by her grace.”

In the Narada-pancaratra, Second Night, Third Chapter, Lord Siva explains:

“The Supreme Lord is one. Still, He is manifested in two forms. One form is female: the potency of Lord Visnu. The other form is male: Lord Visnu.”

From the intro to Srila Prabhupada’s Teachings of Lord Caitanya:

Radha and Krsna are one, and when Krsna desires to enjoy pleasure, He manifests Himself as Radharani. The spiritual exchange of love between Radha and Krsna is the actual display of the internal pleasure potency of Krsna (Radha’s display). Although we speak of “when” Krsna desires, just when He did desire we cannot say. We only speak in this way because in conditional life we take it that everything has a beginning; however, in the absolute or spiritual life there is neither beginning nor end. Yet in order to understand that Radha and Krsna are one and that They also become divided, the question “When?” automatically comes to mind. When Krsna desired to enjoy His pleasure potency, He manifested himself in the separate form of Radharani.

From Sri Caitanya Caritamrta Adi Lila

CC Adi 4.72: “I worship Govinda, the primeval Lord, who resides in His own realm, Goloka, with Radha, who resembles His own spiritual figure and who embodies the ecstatic potency [hladini]. Their companions are Her confidantes, who embody extensions of Her bodily form and who are imbued and permeated with ever-blissful spiritual rasa.”

CC Adi 4.73: Now please listen to how Lord Krsna’s consorts help Him taste rasa and how they help in His pastimes.

CC Adi 4.74-75: The beloved consorts of Lord Krsna are of three kinds: the goddesses of fortune, the queens, and the milkmaids of Vraja, who are the foremost of all. These consorts all proceed from Radhika.

CC Adi 4.76: Just as the fountainhead, Lord Krsna, is the cause of all incarnations, so Sri Radha is the cause of all these consorts.

CC Adi 4.77: The goddesses of fortune are partial manifestations of Srimati Radhika, and the queens are reflections of Her image.

CC Adi 4.78: The goddesses of fortune are Her plenary portions, and they display the forms of vaibhava-vilasa. The queens are of the nature of Her vaibhava-prakasa.

CC Adi 4.79: The Vraja-devis have diverse bodily features. They are Her expansions and are the instruments for expanding rasa.

CC Adi 4.80: Without many consorts, there is not such exultation in rasa. Therefore there are many manifestations of Srimati Radharani to assist in the Lord’s pastimes.

CC Adi 4.81: Among them are various groups of consorts in Vraja who have varieties of sentiments and mellows. They help Lord Krsna taste all the sweetness of the rasa dance and other pastimes.

PURPORT

As already explained, Krsna and Radha are one in two. They are identical. Krsna expands Himself in multi-incarnations and plenary portions like the purusas. Similarly, Srimati Radharani expands Herself in multiforms as the goddesses of fortune, the queens and the damsels of Vraja. Such expansions from Srimati Radharani are all Her plenary portions. All these womanly forms of Krsna are expansions corresponding to His plenary expansions of Visnu forms. These expansions have been compared to reflected forms of the original form. There is no difference between the original form and the reflected forms. The female reflections of Krsna’s pleasure potency are as good as Krsna Himself.

The plenary expansions of Krsna’s personality are called vaibhava-vilasa and vaibhava-prakasa, and Radha’s expansions are similarly described. The goddesses of fortune are Her vaibhava-vilasa forms, and the queens are Her vaibhava-prakasa forms. The personal associates of Radharani, the damsels of Vraja, are direct expansions of Her body. As expansions of Her personal form and transcendental disposition, they are agents of different reciprocations of love in the pastimes of Lord Krsna, under the supreme direction of Srimati Radharani. In the transcendental realm, enjoyment is fully relished in variety. The exuberance of transcendental mellows is increased by the association of a large number of personalities similar to Radharani, who are also known as gopis or sakhis. The variety of innumerable mistresses is a source of relish for Sri Krsna, and therefore these expansions from Srimati Radharani are necessary for enhancing the pleasure potency of Sri Krsna. Their transcendental exchanges of love are the superexcellent affairs of the pastimes in Vrndavana. By these expansions of Srimati Radharani’s personal body, She helps Lord Krsna taste the rasa dance and other, similar activities. Srimati Radharani, being the central petal of the rasa-lila flower, is also known by the names found in the following verses.

The region of our generation is tatashta. THE THING IS THIS REGION IS NOT IMPERSONAL. THE REGION IS PERSONAL AND IS MADE UP OF THE JIVA'S.

 

Hare Krsna

Yes, the jiva's are NOT generated from there AS NEW jivas that some are proposing, we have eternally existed as jiva withut beginning or end.

Thank you theist, this is my understanding of Prabhupada’s teachings

Tatastha s’akti, the bonafide meaning, also what does “in-between the spiritual creation and the material creation” mean?.

Sri Caitanya Caritamrta Madhya 22.8-9

svamsa-vibhinnamsa-rupe hana vistara

ananta vaikuntha-brahmande karena vihara

Krsna expands Himself in many forms. Some of them are personal expansions, and some are separate expansions. Thus He performs pastimes in both the spiritual and the material worlds. The spiritual worlds are the Vaikuntha planets, and the material universes are the brahmandas, gigantic globes governed by Lord Brahma

svamsa-vistara — catur-vyuha, avatara-gana

vibhinnamsa jiva — tanra saktite ganana

Expansions of His personal self — like the quadruple manifestations of Sankarsana, Pradyumna, Aniruddha and Vasudeva — descend as incarnations from Vaikuntha to this material world. The separated expansions are the living entities. Although they are expansions of Krsna, they are counted among His different potencies.

PURPORT

The personal expansions are known as visnu-tattva, and the separated expansions are known as jiva-tattva. Although the jivas (living entities) are part and parcel of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, they are still counted among His multipotencies.

We eternally exist as independent parts and parcels (Jiva-TATASTHAS) of <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>, the personification of the internal energy. We are NOT in some ‘in-between’ place, plain or IMPERSONAL location in the middle of the spiritual creation and the material creation WHERE SOULS ARE being constantly “IMPERSONALLY” GENERATED from. WE ARE ETERNAL LIVING BEINGS WITH NO BEGINNING OR END, AS THE BHAGAVAD GITA TELLS US, PERPETUALLY OR ENDLESSLY under the influence of free will that can choose between serving Lord Krishna in Goloka, or being a slave to His illusionary energy in the mahat-tattva or material energies). Due to the eternal present in Goloka, our authentic everlasting nitya-siddha bodily higher self characteristic of OUR JIVA TATASTHA is always serving Krishna, regardless however, we can choose to ignore Krishna and not be aware of who we really and sub-consciously (nitya-baddha) take shelter of the perishable inferior energy or mahat-tattva material creation of Maha-Vishnu. This inferior material energy, like a cloud that covers the sun, covers our awareness of who we really are in the perpetual ‘present’. And puts us in the illusion of past, present and future that’s effect is decay and forgetfulness.

Tatastha s’akti is not a place; it refers to the jiva soul’s sovereignty as an individual living being. Tatastha does not refer to a place; it does not possess a locative meaning in the sense of being in a particular spot. Tatastha has an ontological meaning.

The jiva is a sakti of the Lord, it exists as neither Cit Sakti nor as Maya Sakti, we exist in between these two categories of saktis, and therefore we are called Tatastha. The place where water, as in a river an ocean or lake, where it meets the land, that is called tata. The Cit Sakti is represented by the water and the Maya Sakti us represented by the land. Since we are neither the Maya Sakti nor the Cit Sakti, neither the water or the land, we are called tatastha, or the in-between the water and the land. The tide can cause us to be submerged in water or the tide can retreat and we can become left on the land. The jiva can be influenced and come under the dominion of the Cit Sakti or of the Maya Sakti. In one full potential expression within the eternal presents of Goloka, we, the Jiva tatastha expressed as who we really are in the perpetual ‘present’ as or ‘our’ perpetual identity, personality, individuality.

Jiva-tatastha is the marginal living entity or jiva-tattva that can established in a loving relationship with <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> in Goloka, or a loving servitor relationship with His Vishnu-tattva expansions in Vaikuntha. Nitya-siddha’s have different names in different pastimes due to the fact that they never fall down. In fact most never allow their awareness of being nitya-siddha to be covered The nitya-siddhas never leave Goloka or Vaikuntha, some however imagine or think they do while most never enter the world of imagination and therefore never experience the shackles of Maya.

There are only two types of living entities, Visnu tattva and Jiva Tattva. The people who claim that there is a third type of living entity whom they refer to as sakti-tattva usually claim that Radha and her plenary expansions belong to that third category and that they are not Visnu Tattva. The fact is that Sri Radha and her plenary expansions are both Isvara-Tattva (Isvari) or Visnu-Tattva and sakti-Tattva. Because sakti-tattva refers to the general principle of being a sakti of the Lord, and not to a specific type of living entity, therefore they are both. Sri Radha is the not only the primary sakti of the Lord she is also identical to the Lord. She is Visnu Tattva.

This is from Srila Prabhupada’s “Teachings of Lord Caitanya”

The supreme knowledge of Krsna is exhibited in three different energies - internal, marginal and external. By virtue of His internal energy, He exists in Himself with His spiritual paraphernalia; by means of His marginal energy (tatastha sakti), He exhibits Himself as the living entities, and by means of His external energy He exhibits Himself as material energy. Behind each and every energetic exhibition there is the background of eternity, pleasure, potency and full cognizance.

Sri Caitanya Caritamrta Madhya 20.108-109

jivera ’svarupa’ haya — krsnera ‘nitya-dasa’

krsnera ‘tatastha-sakti’ ‘bhedabheda-prakasa’

suryamsa-kirana, yaiche agni-jvala-caya

svabhavika krsnera tina-prakara ’sakti’ haya

SYNONYMS

jivera — of the living entity; svarupa — the constitutional position; haya — is; krsnera — of Lord Krsna; nitya-dasa — eternal servant; krsnera — of Lord Krsna; tatastha — marginal; sakti — potency; bheda-abheda — one and different; prakasa — manifestation; surya-amsa — part and parcel of the sun; kirana — a ray of sunshine; yaiche — as; agni-jvala-caya — molecular particle of fire; svabhavika — naturally; krsnera — of Lord Krsna; tina-prakara — three varieties; sakti — energies; haya — there are.

TRANSLATION

It is the living entity’s constitutional position to be an eternal servant of Krsna because he is the marginal energy of Krsna and a manifestation simultaneously one with and different from the Lord, like a molecular particle of sunshine or fire. Krsna has three varieties of energy

I cannot agree with you on your CRAZY speculations, all living entities are perpetually nitya siddha, they are NOT generated out of some nonsense plain sheet of consciousness, such impersonalism, rather Mayavardism!! is rejected by Srila Prabhupada. Never was there a time when ALL jivas did not exist and in the future non of them will cease to be. What you have written is totally bogus

Your presentation is a silly idea

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by Sarva gattah

Srila Prabhupada “Repetition of scripture is necessary otherwise you will forget, we are constantly repeating the name of Krishna so we will never forget” Srimad Bhagavatam Class Los Angeles 1973

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The highest realizing is Personalism. The above painting is of Krishna and His brother Balarama whose abode Goloka-Vrindavan is beyond the impersonal light or impersonal Brahman destination of impersonalist yogis and Buddhists.

Sarva, You simply post the same quotes over and over, with the same consistent material.

Srila Prabhupada “Repetition of scripture is necessary otherwise you will forget, we are constantly repeating the name of Krishna so we will never forget” Srimad Bhagavatam Class <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com<st1:City w:st="on">Los Angeles</st1:City></st1:place> 1973

JIva-tatastha is a made up term--invented by you. In fact, tatastha describes the jiva's vulnerablilty due to its smallness, more than its sovereignty. God is sovereign, and all others are His servants. (Jeez--just look it up in a dictionary.) The jiva is independent, but only minutle so, and in a very limited way. Read the books, assimilate the teachings of the guru-paramapara, and quit trying to be some sort of two-bit muni.

Thanks for the complement; I will forgive you for being nasty however, the terminology jiva tatastha is not my invention

Sanskrit dictionary - Tatastha-s'akti: the living being, the intermediate energy of the Supreme Lord also known as jiva tatastha.

Jiva Tatastha is not a place or region in between the spiritual and material worlds, tatastha refers to the marginal living entities, jiva tattva, jiva tatasthas

Unfit gurus are accepted by unfit disciples.

Clever saying and very true, its the duty of a seeker of truth to test their Guru and not blindly follow

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by Svarupa

B - Jiva-tatastha - Tatastha s’akti is not a place; it refers to the jiva soul’s sovereignty as an individual living being.

 

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Is material world a real place?

Is spiritual world a real place?

 

If you answer yes, then the boundary between the two is real as well. That place is called the tatastha region.

 

The Viraja River of Brahman flows between the two worlds and is a home to tatastha-shakti, or living entities like you and me.

 

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All I am describing here is that the living entities are independent

Krishna has three energies, superior, marginal and inferior, the jiva tatasthas are the marginal, of course they are either serving Krishna in Goloka (spiritual world) or are covered by the mahat-tattva (material world)

My point is that jiva-tatastha (marginal living entity) , simply refers to their individual independence

BG 15.16

There are two classes of beings, the fallible and the infallible. In the material world every living entity is fallible (kshara), and in the spiritual world every living entity is called infallible (akshara).

 

In the purport to this verse Prabhupada says: "According to the statement of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Lord Krishna, there are two classes of living entities. The Vedas give evidence of this, so there is no doubt about it."

 

This is confirmed by Lord Caitanya (CC Madhya 22.10-12)

 

"The living entities [jīvas] are divided into two categories. Some are eternally liberated, and others are eternally conditioned.

 

"Those who are eternally liberated are always awake to Krsna consciousness, and they render transcendental loving service at the feet of Lord Krsna. They are to be considered eternal associates of Krsna, and they are eternally enjoying the transcendental bliss of serving Krsna.

 

"Apart from the ever-liberated devotees, there are the conditioned souls, who always turn away from the service of the Lord. They are perpetually conditioned in this material world and are subjected to the material tribulations brought about by different bodily forms in hellish conditions."

 

If there was no difference between the two, I'm sure the shastra would say so. We could claim that since we are all spirit, there is NO difference. Yet this division is made in the sense of functionality. Some living entities (jivas)function as eternally liberated (they chose the right bank while swimming in the Viraja River of brahmajyoti) others function as eternally conditioned (they chose the material bank). One group lives in the world of spirit, the other lives here, in the world of matter. It is all very simple if you take it on face value.

Question 1) How can the separation mood from Krsna develop in one who believes that they are already in Goloka? (with Krsna by definition)

Answer - Nitya siddha's never fall down, they are always nitya-siddhas just like the sun is always the sun even though it might be covered by the clouds. Nitya siddha means eternally liberated or established however, when a nitya siddha becomes covered, like the cloud covers the sun, he becomes eternally conditioned or nitya baddha (due to the cloud covering) Therefore we cannot see our real eternal nitya-siddha identity because our awareness is now restricted by that cloud obscurity which is the nitya-baddha consciousness. This cloud covering is now what we are only aware of, we no longer know or believe we are in Goloka because our factual ‘awareness’ of existence IS no-longer in Goloka. We forget that our nitya-baddha consciousness, like the cloud blocking the sun, is blocking any awareness to our nitya-siddha svarupa in Goloka. Our eternal constitutional position as nitya siddha, is no longer visible to our eye. Just like one forgets the sun due to the cloud cover, we completely forget our nitya-siddha body because of our nitya baddha covering. We are not able to see the sun shinning (our nitya-siddha body) due to the cloud or nitya baddha consciousness blocking our vision of the sun. The sun is always there, it has not gone anywhere, similarly our nitya-siddha body is always there in Goloka and also has not gone nowhere however; we cannot realized this because of the cloud or nitya-baddha covering therefore, we are only aware of being nitya-baddha and have no conviction, memory, evidence or visionally proof that we were ever nitya siddha. We simply cannot realize we are nitya siddha while we are nitya baddha. Only by becoming Krishna Conscious can the cloud cover (nitya-baddha) be lift or the dust (nitya-baddha) be removed from the mirror so we can see our real self

Question 2) How could there be real humility if you believe that you are just as good as Krsna's parishads? (parishad=eternal associate)

What is the meaning of "go BACK HOME back to Godhead" if the soul is already back home, back to Godhead but just simply doesn't realize it.

Why would one need to GO anywhere if in fact he is already there?

Back home BACK to Godhead most surely portrays the concept that the soul must leave this realm and enter another realm beyond this one.

So, even the basic concept of BACK to Godhead tells us that there is a journey to another place required to get BACK HOME back to Godhead.

If we were already there, then there could be no GOING BACK.

Answer – We are not in Goloka consciously while we are nitya baddha. We can’t be nitya-siddha while acting as nitya baddha because we cannot see or be aware of that covered nitya-siddha identity. While being nitya-baddha one has no awareness of being nitya-siddha because factually they are not nitya-siddha in consciousness.

Question 3) If I believe that I am already a nitya siddha associate of the Lord why would I think my guru will guide me also in the spiritual world?

Answer – At the moment our only present awareness of ourselves is solely nitya-baddha and remains so until we remove the dark cloud covering of material desires by replacing them with devotional Krishna Conscious desires, then gradually the cloud cover or nitya-baddha is dissipated revealing the sun or our eternal nitya-siddha Krishna Conscious identity.

Srila Prabhupada is saying that nitya siddha MEANS never falling down, he is saying that nitya siddha’s can be covered over only and their memory of being nitya-siddha forgotten, like one forgets their material body while dreaming.

What he means by saying nitya siddha's never fall down, is they are always nitya-siddhas just like the sun is always the sun even though it might be covered by the clouds. Nitya siddha means eternally liberated or established, so when a nitya siddha becomes covered, like the cloud covers the sun, he becomes eternally conditioned or nitya baddha (due to the cloud covering)

In fact most devotee's in Goloka never allow their awareness of being nitya-siddha, be covered by nitya baddha however, up to 25% do allow themselves to be covered. Such inconceivable statements are inconceivable because how is it possible to calculate 75% and 25% in an endless Spiritual creation. The nitya-siddhas never leave Goloka or Vaikuntha, some however, imagine they do while most never enter the world of imagination and therefore never experience the shackles of Maya as nitya baddha.

Srila Prabhupada – “You are NOT eternally conditioned (NITYA-BADDHA). You are eternally liberated (NITYA-SIDDHA) but since we have become conditioned on account of our desire to enjoy materialistic way of life, from time immemorial, therefore it appears that we are eternally conditioned (NITYA-BADDHA)’ Letter to Aniruddha, dated November 14, 1968.

Srila Prabhupada is saying that nitya siddha MEANS never fall down, he issaying that nitya siddha’s can be covered over only and their memory of being nitya-siddha forgotten, like one forgets their material body while dreaming. What he means by saying nitya siddha's never fall down, is they are always nitya-siddhas just like the sun is always the sun even though it might be covered by the clouds. Nitya siddha means eternally liberated or established, so when a nitya siddha becomes covered, like the cloud covers the sun, he becomes eternally conditioned or nitya baddha (due to the cloud covering)

B - Jiva-tatastha - Tatastha s’akti is not a place; it refers to the jiva soul’s sovereignty as an individual living being. Jiva tatastha therefore is us or ‘our’ perpetual identity, personality, individuality. Jiva-tatastha is also known as the marginal living entity or jiva-tattva that can established in a loving relationship with Krishna in Goloka, or a loving servitor relationship with His Vishnu-tattva expansions in Vaikuntha. Nitya-siddha’s have different names in different pastimes due to the fact that they never fall down. In fact most never allow their awareness of being nitya-siddha to be covered however up to 25% do allow themselves to be covered. Such inconceivable statements are inconceivable because how is it possible to calculate 75% and 25% in an endless Spiritual creation. The nitya-siddhas never leave Goloka or Vaikuntha, some however imagine they do while most never enter the world of imagination and therefore never experience the shackles of Maya.

Srila Prabhupada – “Actually no-one falls down from Vaikuntha, they only ‘think’ they are fallen or ‘dream’ they are fallen but in perpetual reality one can never fall down”. Srimad Bhagavatam class <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:place w:st="on"><st1:country-region w:st="on">Japan</st1:country-region></st1:place>

Srila Prabhupada - “Originally everyone is nitya-siddha. Nitya-siddha krsna-bhakti ’sadhya’ kabhu naya sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya. Every living entity is originally nitya-siddha, “. Srimad-Bhagavatam Class 7.9.4– Mayapur, February 18, 1977

Srila Prabhupada -“The living entity should become purified and regain his svarūpa, his original identity” Srimad Bhagavatam 8.24.48

"If marginal energy (the living entity with its independent nature) chooses to be in contact with the external energy of the Lord, it still remains marginal". (See CC Adi 2.96)

C - Free will – Allows us to communicate our own autonomous way of thinking of how to serve and please <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> in a selfless manner for all eternity. This loving exchange or reciprocation with <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> and His devotees is the purpose of all marginal living entities and why they have free will. It is simply there so the living entity can express their own splendid loving exchanges of humble devotional service and gratitude to <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>, in their own unique way. If there is no such choice of how to express and ones self, then how can there be love?

D - In-between the spiritual creation and the material creation. We therefore eternally exist independently as a part and parcel of the internal energy or life force. We are not in some place in-between the spiritual creation and the material creation; we are under the influence of free will that can choose between serving Lord Krishna, or being a slave to His illusionary energy (mahat-tattva). Due to the eternal present in Goloka, our authentic everlasting nitya-siddha bodily self is always serving Krishna, regardless however, we can choose to ignore Krishna and not be aware of who we really and sub-consciously take shelter of the perishable inferior energy or mahat-tattva material creation of Maha-Vishnu. This material energy, like a cloud that covers the sun, covers our awareness of who we really are in the perpetual ‘present’. And puts us in the illusion of past, present and future that’s effect is decay and forgetfulness.

“The space and time of the spiritual world are completely different from the space and time you are experiencing in this inert world. Material time is divided into past, present and future. But in the spiritual world there is only the one imperishable present time. Every event in the spiritual world is ever present. Whatever we speak or describe in the material world is under the influence of material space and material time”. Bhaktivinode Thakura.

E - Impersonal Brahmajyoti. We can also choose to enter impersonal Brahmajyoti in a dormant dreamless state, after becoming fed up with the temporary bodily vessels on offer within the mahat-tattva

Conclusion There is only one imperishable reality that is Goloka and <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>’s surrounding Vaikuntha planets where His Vishnu-tattva expansions reside and served by unlimited nitya-siddha devotees. Reality means eternally established in the 'endless present', where there is no past or future, as we know it. There is also only nitya-siddhas, one class of living entity in Goloka’s eternal presets serving <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>. The nitya baddha consciousness is simply and illusion that is real but temporary that that we create with our mind due to our freewill. We make the choice in our independent way of thinking that sub-consciously appears to make us leave Goloka and our awareness of <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>, but actually we have not gone anywhere, we have only imagined we have. That independent mistaken desire and choice, covers our awareness like a cloud covers the sun, but actually we are the same person, there is only the nitya-siddha devotee, but due to the cloud cover it only appears there are two classes of living entities. The name for that covered state, that is the product of thought of the mind, is nitya-baddha, but actually nothing has really changed, one is the same one person they have always been, which is nitya-siddha, but due to being covered, we cannot see that, in fact. we are now convinced we are the covered nitya-baddha because we are no longer aware of who we really are (nitya-siddha)

In other words, just as the cloud covers our view of the sun, our nitya-baddha condition of restricted consciousness, like the cloud covers the sun, covers our realization of our eternal constitutional nitya siddha Krishna Conscious position

Again so what!! Whether you believe it or not, you are right now nitya siddha!

You don't have to suck up to anyone or be a member of ISKCON because the fact is you are and always have been nitya-siddha. It’s not just an ISKCON thing, realist hates the present version of ISKCON, but it does not change his belief that 'right now' we are all nitya-siddha.

Even some GBC men, like Banu Maharaj cannot understand that we are all nitya-siddha devotees of Krishna. Not even he can recognize the eternal 'present' which simply means, once in the eternal present, it will be as if we have always been there because of the absents of past and future.

In fact, most ISKCON devotee’s, including Gurus and Sannyasi's, cannot comprehend this fact and prefer NOT to discus it. Vey few ISKCON temple devotees comment on these posts.

Go on most ISKCON sites and you will not see it NEVER discussed. In fact in many Temples discussion of this topic is 'unofficially banned’. We can’t understand it so why discuss it. After all Srila Prabhupada told us not to waste our time discussing it. Type in ISKCON Melbourne and write 'origin of the jiva soul', nothing comes up because no one there has any solid understanding, Banu Swami will not discuss it, Ramai Swami answers this by saying it is a mystery or refers devotees to 'our original position', which frankly is not that clear on the subject. Yes Srila Prabhuada told us in a letter in 1972 (I was there) that it is better not to waste our time on this subject however in another letter in 1974 in Mayapur Srila Prabhupada says we must try and understand that we have come down from Vaikuntha and says of devotees who avoid trying to understand that we are now in Goloka, but presently only ‘think’ imagine and dream we are not there, when in fact we are perpetually there, is they don’t want to know. This why most ISKCON temples have adopted the 1972, 'Crow and Tala-fruit Logic letter instead of the 1974 Mayapur lecture.

Even all outside sites at Melbourne Temple web site have been censored. Other ISKCON Temples around the world are not so fanatical, such as Dandavats and some American Temples, although you can’t blame Temple Presidents trying to protect young devotees from outside controversies and ragging and often abusive debates.

iskcon.com - ISKCON Communications Journal - ICJ

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So what? It does change the fact that 'right now', you and I and every living entity including those 'dreaming' in the bodily vessels as hogs, dogs, camels and arseholes are ALL nitya-siddha. See, you Guruvani and all the others trapped in 'I AM FROM THE IMPERSONAL BRAHMAJYOTI NONSENSE misundertood from Sridar Maharaj's plain sheet of impersonal conscious silly teachings', cannot understand that once you are in Goloka it will be as if you have never left - Read the transcendental teachings of Vigraha and you will understand, he has even become nice now to the Gaudiya math:D Although that want last because impersonalism has poisioned the present day version of the Gaudiya math

The the real eternal truth as givin by OUR Srila Prabhupada below:namaskar:

'Our original position' is written by Suhotra Swami OOP.ZIP 242286 25-Dec-95 Our Original Position (GBC Press

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A great Vaishnava teacher in the Hare Krishna tradition, he ...

11 min - <NOBR></NOBR>

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Guest (1): Well, could you correct me if I'm wrong. We have a society called Ramakrishna Society, a society in Burma. Those people who founded this society and are practicing Krsna culture, they don't wear those things, or they don't chant in their temple, but they do all sorts of social welfare type of thing. Is there any difference between...

Prabhupada: Ramakrishna Mission is not Vedic. It is a creation of Vivekananda's concoction. It is not Vedic. Just like they created a God, Ramakrishna. So that is not a Vedic sanction, that you create any fool rascal, a god.

Guest (1): Isn't yours a product of or derivative of Vedic?

Prabhupada: Yes, completely.

Guest (1): So how would you...

Prabhupada: Just like whatever question you are asking, we are answering from Vedic literature. We are not answering ourself. That is the difference. The evidence is from the Vedic literature. I don't say that "In my opinion it is like this." We don't say.

Guest (1): I'm sorry, I missed that point. Could you please explain?

Paramahamsa: He said it is Vedic because the answers he is giving are not his opinion or concoction, but he is giving from the Vedic knowledge or the Vedic scriptures instead of making up his own opinion. That is the meaning of Vedic; it is based on the Vedic teachings exactly.

Guest (1): But the Ramakrishna wasn't.

Prabhupada: No.

Guest (1): They formed their own way.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Guest (2): Do you consider that this kind of practice or the practicing this kind of culture is regimentated? A person has to come in and spend some times in the temple, and...

Prabhupada: Yes, the association, the influence of association. If you go to a drunkard association, you become a drunkard.

THEN STOP USING THE WORD VARDI, LEAVE IT WHERE IT BELONGS : - MAYA-VARDI

I believe in ghosts.

But, you are not up to that level yet, so I don't believe in you.

 

I am a warlock.

Haven't you noticed.

How about them nightmares you are having?

HAHAH...... TEHEHE....

I AM the BOOGEYMAN!

No your not, you are a GREAT nitya-siddha devotee of Krishna and are presently dreaming you’re not His pure wonderful loving selfless Krishna Conscious devotee, well, maybe having a really bad nightmare of terrible proportions that has so grossly covered who you really are (YOUR WONDERFUL SVARUPA BODY), you have only temporarily fooled yourself with your delusions (thanks partly due to those crazy Christian Bible belt idiots of the South and their past indoctrinations on your febble mind) to believe your not perpetually nitya-siddha. Just Hare Krishna mate and she'll be apples

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“The train is not only a sound but is also 'bright blinding light' as well”

These are the facts, the impersonalist yogi mentioned above is not a devotee and does not recognize Paramatma accompanying him, he only sees himself as one with everything and does not even recognize his own individuality, he considers himself as part of one all pervasive life force and he sees that light emanating from himself as the oneness that flows through all living things and makes up the impersonal clear light or Brahmajyoti. Not only does the impersonalist yogi not believe in his nitya-siddha body, but he also does not believe in a nitya-baddha consciousness. To them there is only one consciousness flowering through all existence, all bodily vessels etc

Devotees call this Mayavardi philosophy

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The Vardi-mafia of Guruvani, Begger, Kulapavana and co, I remember all the abuse that was thrown at Srila Prabhupada and how he was attacked by A MADMAN on LSD, such abuse and the trials and tribulations only made him stronger

So get used to the fact that ALL OF US, including the so called demons, Mayavardis, impersonalists, materialists and even those of you born from the rectum of Lord Brahma:D are ALL nitya-siddhas and are presently just having a bad dream.

NOTE: The word vardi refers to those or believe we all come from the impersonal Brahmajyoti and we all return to the impersonal Brahmajyoti.

 

The Villagers and the train - Different realizations of the absolute truth

 

Many years ago, the British came to India and began building a train line between Delhi and Mathura. Many simple villages on the outskirts at the time had no idea what a train looked like, so when the time had come to greet the train, the village elders would sent a young representative down to meet the train and ascertain what it is and then come back with the news of its anticipated arrival.

 

On the evening of its appearance, the villagers patiently and inquisitively waited in expectation and wonder of what a ‘train’ was. Eventually day turned to night and everyone in the Village became anxious and excited, knowing the train’s arrival was imminent. The fact was, no one had any inkling of what a train was. The young boy was dispatched and was told to immediately report back to the Village elder as soon as he identifies the train.

 

Off the young boy went in the dark and began to wait patiently. The night sky was clear and there was very little breeze in the air, he could hear the usual sounds of native animals although; even they were quite on this still moonless chilly night.

 

Then to the young boys surprise, out of the pitch black darkness and the still of night, he heard this thunderous extended high-pitched sound (the train whistles), being excited, he was convinced he now new what the train was. He immediately ran back to the village elders and excitedly told them,

 

 

"The train is a big sound"

 

 

Some of the elders were puzzled, but most accepted the news as final and that a train is just a sound. Still not convinced the train was just a sound, feeling puzzled, a few decided to send another young villager down to investigate this sound and if there was more to the train. The second young boy the villager elders sent down was told to wait well into the darkness of night until the sound came closer to him. Eventually, after hearing the sound many times in a mood of fear of the unknown and inquisitiveness of what a train really is, he finally saw in the distance an extremely bright light that scared him. The combination of the sound and the bright blinding light frightened him because he did not understand what he was experiencing! Being excited he rushed back to the elders proclaiming,

 

 

 

“The train is not only a sound but is also 'bright blinding light' as well”

 

 

Many at the village where now convinced what a train was and most where satisfied however, still a few believed there might be more to a train than an impersonal sound and light. So again they sent a third young boy to investigate. He also began to patiently wait and stay for as long as it takes. He began experiencing the sound getting louder and the light getting brighter, louder and louder the sound was becoming while at the same time the light was becoming brighter and brighter - then to his surprise, both the sound and light passed him by. To his astonishment, he discovered the source of both the sound and light, coming from the form of the train. Behind the sound and light was form, or objects like carriages that are filled with people like him, all engaging in all kinds of different activities? He ran back to the village yelling,

 

 

 

“The train is a form from where the sound and light emanated, where people are engaged in all kinds of activity”.

 

They all eventually saw the train for what it really is (Personalism) Brahman therefore is held together by form. The highest realizing is Personalism. The above painting is of Krishna and His brother Balarama whose abode Goloka-Vrindavan is beyond the impersonal light or impersonal Brahman destination of impersonalist yogis and Buddhists. Srila Prabhupada says – “where there is light there is no darkness’.

 

 

I just want to remember what this thread is all about, great story and anology that tells the difference between Personalism and Impersonalism

This is the nature of the vicarious living the self is subjected too here in this virtual reality dreamland called the material world.

 

Your continous mocking of your opponents is unseemly and would be even if you had actually won the debate, but even that you have yet to do.

Wake up Mr Vardi (Guruvani), your in Goloka right now!!. Oh, by the way, you and I and everyone else NEVER came from the impersonal Brahmajyoti

 

 

 

 

 

 

Srila Prabhupada - “Actually we are all ghosts, ...spirits" the only difference being that we have a gross body made of mucus, bile and air, and disembodied spirits have only subtle-ethereal a body made of mind, intelligence and false-ego”. Morning walk in Bombay, India, April 12th 1974

What is that photo? Ha Ha next Guruvani will be telling us he doesn't believe in Ghosts and hobgoblins and that they are just fairytales

Interesting reading, these are the hard facts that no-one can dispute

 

These are the facts, the impersonalist yogi mentioned above is not a devotee and does not recognize Paramatma accompanying him, he only sees himself as one with everything and does not even recognize his own individuality, he considers himself as part of one all pervasive life force and he sees that light emanating from himself as the oneness that flows through all living things and makes up the impersonal clear light or Brahmajyoti. Not only does the impersonalist yogi not believe in his nitya-siddha body, but he also does not believe in a nitya-baddha consciousness. To them there is only one consciousness flowering through all existence, all bodily vessels etc.

Devotees call this Mayavardi philosophy

 

This is correct understanding

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Are you kidding us or what? Have you gone off the deep end?

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Beggar, Guruvani and co do you guys have any idea of Vedic Knowledge, apparently not?

Well there is another point you may want to consider. It is not exactly the spiritual form of the self that keeps a body alive it is the energy or life force of that spiritual self that keeps the body alive.

 

Consider yogis who can leave their body at will. The body doesnot die when they are gone because a certain connection is kept supplying prana to the inactive form while the yogi is elsewhere.

 

But even that projection from the body is just another projection of consciousness which does not necessitate the spiritual form of the self. This is also known as maya's throwing capacity. The "throwing" of consciousness from "here to there".

An analogy can be made to being in a movie theater and being really absorbed in the movie. Say like in a fighter jet during a dog fight. The plane is turning upside down at incredible speeds and spinning and turning left then right and the next thing you know you are squirming in your movie seat and covering you eyes as you start to feel motion sickness.

 

I am an acrophoic (fear of heights) and can tell you that when a scene comes up that shows someone on any edge of a building or cliff way high up I can't watch it.

 

This is the nature of the vicarious living the self is subjected too here in this virtual reality dreamland called the material world.

 

Your continous mocking of your opponents is unseemly and would be even if you had actually won the debate, but even that you have yet to do.

Vigraha is right! The reason why the Mayavardis think they are God is because they believe they are EVERYTHING. In Mayavardi philosophy you can forget about terminologies like nitya-baddha, nitya-siddha and the individual jivatma, they do not believe in any of that that because THEY think they are God AND the ONE ALL PERVASIVE ENERGY of life force that flows through All living things - period!!

How would you know?

Agree, There is an old saying, 'As I think the whole world thinks' Guruvani how do you know everyone does not know anything? Some great realized devotees may be posting on these threads. Srila Prabhupada said that even Naradha Muni cames in disguise amongst the devotees. In fact I would not be suprised if there are advanced devotees coming on these threads, like, maybe krsna,Jahnava Nitai Das, Hari Sauri dasa, Theist or even cbrahma etc trying to help us get off the argumentive mental level.

Quote:

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regardless of the different philosophical viewpoints, we all must acknowledge the fact that without Srila Prabhupada, very few would of known Sridhar Maharaj and Narayana Maharaj.

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Quote:

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regardless of the different philosophical viewpoints, we all must acknowledge the fact that without Srila Prabhupada, very few would of known Sridhar Maharaj and Narayana Maharaj.

 

 

 

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From the teachings of Guruvani

 

Srila Prabhupada said he had nothing else to teach other than what he wrote in his books, so there is no need to physically approach him for receiving of knowledge.

We approach a guru to get knowledge.

Srila Prabhupada said that everything he had to teach was in his books.

Oh my god! The editors are not to blame for what is in the books of Srila Prabhupada.

The facts are, Narayana Maharaja is criticizing Srila Prabhupada indirectly, but I for one am not so stupid as to not see that.

Prabhupada said what he said and Narayana Maharaja is trying to present himself as the hero when in fact he abandoned a young wife wife two children to become a sannyasi and live off of the hard work of other people

Narayana Maharaja has never given a class from the books of Srila Prabhupada, yet he claims that Srila Prabhupada is his siksha guru?

I call that lies.

I have read many lecures of Narayana Maharaja and seen the website many times and I have never seen him reading from the books of Srila Prabhupada and quoting Srila Prabhupada and the books.

Only he likes to remind everyone that in the books of Srila Prabhupada there is racist words and woman hating.

If you look back and find my remarks you will find that they were made in response to some very callous and harsh statements being made by the fan club of Sridhar Maharaja about Srila Prabhupada.

Sridhar Maharaja said "I am not wholly one with Swami Maharaja".

So, is it a crime if I am not wholly one with Sridhar Maharaja?

My idea behind this topic was simply to find out if Narayana Maharaja gives classes from the books of Srila Prabhupada, as in my admittedly limited experience I haven't seen that, but now there are some who are telling me that in fact he does occasionaly read from the books

of Srila Prabhupada.

If Narayana Maharaja does read from the books of Srila Prabhupada, then that is something that increases my appreciation for him quite a bit.

However, the BBT editors did not put sexist or racist comments in the books of Srla Prabhupada.

If Narayana Maharaja has objections to some of the things that are written in the books of Srila Prabhupada, then he shouldn't make some wild claim that those things were put int he books by the BBT editors.

That is pure nonsense, but maybe some ridiculous excuse that Jadurani and the gang are feeding Narayana Maharaja.

What is Narayana Maharaja talking about?

The so-called racist and sexist views that Narayana Maharaja is objecting to are traditional Vedic views.

Srila Prabhupada was making sannyasis, and brahmans out of black men before Narayana Maharaja became a world preacher on the coattails of Srila Prabhuapda, so Narayana Maharaja doesn't need to say that there are racist views in the books of Srila Prabhupada and then blame them on the BBT editors.

The very idea that Narayana Maharaja says there are racist and sexist views in the books of Srila Prabhupada is proof that he doesn't understand what Srila Prabhupada has written.

What Narayana Maharaja is saying is racist and sexist in the books of Srila Prabhupada are the words of Srila Prabhupada, not the BBT editors.

So, in essence Narayana Maharaja has criticised Srila Prabhupada and shown that his understanding of the books of Srila Prabhupada are very superficial and shallow.

Then of course, after showing how the books of Srila Prabhupada are racist and sexist, Narayana Maharaja presents himself as the perfect angel with no sexist or racist views, even though he abandoned a devout Hindu wife with two small children to run off and become a "Holy" man.

Holy men don't father children and then run off and leave a young wife and innocent children to suffer and struggle without a husband or a father.

To me that is just despicable and a good example of how callous and hard is the heart of Narayana Maharaja.

Srila Prabhupada stressed in his own books that the devotees of ISKCON should limit their study to his four books: Bhagavat-gita, Nectar of Devotion, Chaitanya Caritamrita and Srimad Bhagavatam, so that leaves no room for reading these other books being written by Narayana Maharaja.

If Narayan Maharaja was a genuine "siksha disciple" of Srila Prabhupada he would not even be translating all these other books, but simply reading and preaching exclusively from the books of Srila Prabhupada that Srila Prabhupada mentioned his disciples to limit themselves too.

The books of Narayana Maharaja are not authorized reading for the disciples and followers of Srila Prabhupada.

To say that the "AS IT IS" idea is not siddhantic is dullard thinking.

All the acharyas have stressed that spiritual knowledge must come down unadulterated, intact and "As It Is".

"As It Is" simply means that it is coming down through disciplic succession.

To say that "As It Is" is not siddhantic is a blatant assault on the integrity of Srila Prabhupada.

Please show us any original Vedic text which promotes the concept of "subjective evolution of consciousness" as told by Sridhar Maharaja.

On the basis of what Gaudiya text is that idea based on?

Is consciousness evolving or unfolding?

Is there something in the consciousness that evolves or it is something that is unearthed from the coverings of illusion?

Don't fool yourself.

Narayana Maharaja has been in the mix from the very beginning as being involved with all the senior ISKCON men during the funeral process of Srila Prabhupada.

Right off the bat Narayana Maharaja was hatefully decrying the ritvik concept and saying that nothing except the "traditional" parampara can be acceptable.

Sridhar Maharaja NEVER espoused the kind of vile contempt for the ritvik system that Narayana Maharaja has from the very beginning.

One difference between the way Srila Prabhupada operated and the way Narayana Maharaja operates is that Srila Prabhupada always built temples and centers for his disciples to have some support structure and devotee society for their assocaition, but Narayana Maharaja is not opening hardly any temples or centers and he just tells everyone to come to the Mayapura parikrama every year and give money to support his temples in India.

He intiates lots of devotees around the world, but then he doesn't provide them any temples or support structures and just expects that ISKCON should accomodate them and integrate them into that society, but it most likely will not happen.

Someday, I think there will be lots and lots of displaced and dis-enchanted disciples of Narayana Maharaja who will feel somewhat neglected because they don't have the temples and structure that ISKCON has for it's members.

They are all big talk and sadhu-sanga now, but when he is gone they will be like orphans without a home.

Narayan Maharaja just doesn't care if his followers have temples and communities and is just satisfied to take money from the west and support his temples in India?

It's obvious that Narayana Maharaja does not share the same vision and same goals as Srila Prabhupada, so the ISKCON people and others have good reason to keep Narayana Maharaja from ISKCON?

It's easy to go all over the world an initiate people.

The hard part is helping them create temples and communities that will support and promote spiritual life.

It's no big accomplishment to initiate a lot of people.

The real accomplishment is to give them something substantial for their maintenance and support.

Srila Prabhupada didn't just initiate a lot of people, but he directed them to build temples and farm communities which would give them an alternative to the materialistic lifestyle that Narayana Maharaja condemns.

all this talk about sadhu sanga, but the only sadhu sanga that is promoted is to chase the old sadhu around the world begging for a glance or a word.

Sadhu sanga requires more than one old holy man to chase around.

Sadhu sanga necessitates organization and a community of devotees.

Obviously, Narayana Maharaja cannot accomplish that with his followers.

If Narayana Maharaja and his gang thinks they can insult, assault and denigrate a large section of followers of Srila Prabhupada who sincerely believe in the ritvik system, well then they shouldn't be surprised if Prabhupada's monkey army starts throwing some rocks back at them from the trees of the jungle.

If Narayana Maharaja would have just kept his mouth shut about the ritvik system, as Srila Sridhar Maharaja did, then he certainly would have had a few thousand less enemies in the world.

In many ways Narayana Maharaja has been a pawn and a puppet of certain irate ISKCON renegades.

We can't put all the blame on him, because many haters of the GBC have been using him for years as a club to pound on the GBC with.

If Narayan Maharaja would have kept his nose out of the ritvik business, I never would have had any problem with him.

I know that he doesn't believe that pancaratrika diksha in the KC movement is just a formality. He thinks it's all important.

Srila Prabhupada told many times that intiation was just a formality and that is why he established a ritvik system to perform this ceremonial ritual in ISKCON.

Narayana Maharaja entered the battlefield willingly and enthusiastically with his attacks on the ritviks, so why in the hell are his goons whining that the enemy is fighting back?

But when it comes to the ritviks, Narayana Maharaja has no humbleness.

He tells about about being humble and offenseless, except towards the ritviks.

His message is to be humble except towards the ritviks,

With the ritviks we can be all mouthy and nasty and rude?

Why does his lessons on humbleness disappear when the issue or ritvik comes up?

Mention ritvik and then Narayana Maharaja goes on a rampage of terror.

Srila Prabhupada said that Jesus was a Vaishnava, but Narayana Maharaja says that devotees who worship Krishna, Srila Prabhupada and all the predecessor acharyas are not Vaishnavas or bhaktas because they don't worship a "living guru" like him.

Well, it's obvious that he is a bigot and a scoundrel who contradicts so many statements by Mahaprabhu and the shastra that the chanters of the Holy Name are the highest bhaktas of all.

Vapuvada rears it's ugly heard again in the hateful words of Narayana Maharaja.

However, because these 11 ritviks knew that Srila Prabhupada gave more seniority and recognition to Sridhar Maharaja than Narayana Maharaja, they preferred to use Sridhar Maharaja as the fall-guy for the zonal guru scam, even though Narayana Maharaja was always there in the background spewing hatred and venom against the ritvik concept.

don't limit the idea of sadhu sanga to Narayana Maharaja or Govinda Maharaja or any of the other Indian Swamis that are getting in on the action of a disintegrating ISKCON.

Thanks to Srila Prabhupada there are embodied sadhus all over the world.

I regret missing them all, not just the old Indian Swamis that so many people are going gahgah over.

http://www.indiadivine.org/audarya/spiritual-discussions/434959-quotes-narayana-maharaja-prabhupadas-books-3.html

My name is not George.

My name is James.

My devotee name is Kshamabuddhi das and most everyone on this forum knows it.

I have never kept my real identity a secret.

I say it regularly and am not afraid to do so.

What is YOUR real devotee name?

To much of a cheater to say?

I thought so.

I warned Vigraha dasa you can not be humble to people like you, you and realist make a good pair, bitter, angry, nasty, fault finding, scared and on the mental plateform. Get over it!

Now I disagree that all Vaisnava paths do not lead to Krsna. .

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>....we must not get complacent or sentimental because, as you know, not all paths including those claiming they are Vaishnava's, lead to Krishna. We must learn to tell the difference between a real diamond and the glass imitation</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

You have misread Vigraha's post above

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by Vigraha

I was not referring to Sridhar Maharaj or Narayana Maharaj, in fact I see them as another bonafide branch of Lord Caitanya's tree and NOT on the level of a glass imitation - they are the real thing, great devotees of Krishna and dear friends of Srila Prabhupada, they are diamonds in the Vaishnava tradition of Lord Caitanya however, regardless of the different philosophical viewpoints, we all must acknowledge the fact that without Srila Prabhupada, very few of us would of known Sridhar Maharaj and Narayana Maharaj.

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Hare Krishna, well now thats an interesting comment that I did not anticipate.

The dream is only a dream for those who are not dreaming.

.

Yes, Srila Prabhupada says that only those who not 'dreaming' of the material world are in Goloka in their original bodily constitutional position They are are not dreaming in/of the material world, this means both you and I are caught up in a dream we think is real but in comparision to the eternal 'presents' in Goloka, it is only real for a short time, then fades away to the piont that it never was, hence the meaning of maya, that which is not. THIS IS WHAT THE WORD DREAM MEANS IN THIS CONTEXT

The dream you and I are presently having, that includes our material body and mind, is an illusion, hence dream means illusion in the material world, somthing that fades away to the point that it will seem that it never really existed. Real existence is permanant and never fades away. Therefore the material 'dream' existence is real, but only temporarally real. Eventually your material body and mine will be as if it never was, as if it never even existed in the first place.

Srila Prabhupada - "Everything happening within time, which consists of past, present and future, is merely a dream. That is the secret understanding in all Vedic literature" Text 1b:Canto 4 Purport Srimad Bhagavatam

Srila Prabhupada - "One is actually dreaming due to incomplete knowledge, just as one may dream that one has wakened from a dream". Canto 11 Text 30 Purport

Thanks Ashvatama for your imput.