Sarva gattah

So our free will is extremely limited but it exists. It is woven throughout the predestined episodes of our life in a way that is basically impossible to see, at least for me. We are so strongly influenced by matter that it appears to be nonexistent.

 

Actions done outside the strict confines of our prarabdha-karma within this life are called kriyamanas. We can change direction. Supersoul takes our desires into consideration and allows for moving back towards Him or farther away.

 

We are tiny souls and controlled by design. Even in the spiritual world we are controlled by the spiritual energy. Free will is what it means to be marginal energy. However we are so minute it can appear we have no free will at all and are just at the mercy of circumstance.

Each pathway (NOT THE PASSENGER WITHIN WHO CAN CHOSE ANY ROUTE, COURSE, DIRECTION HE DESIRES of the MATERIAL vessels that are already mapped out by Maha-Vishnu within His MAHAT-TATTVA dreaming creation, EACH pathway (NOT THE PASSENGERS) within the material creation is already set and known by Maha-Vishnu, even before the PASSENGER takes birth within that material vessel and traveses down its long and winding road. Such bodily containers and their pathways in the material land of the dreaming always remains the property of Maha-Vishnu and not the souls vistng His dreaming creation.[/quote

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<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by Sarva gattah

1. The "future is set" means simply and clearly that the mahat-tattva has already been created by its designer Maha Vishnu; we just enter into His creation and then play it the way we choose.

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<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>The devotees on the other hand, can and have the Krishna Conscious ability to change any predestined material event, due to their devotional service. However, Maha-Vishnu also knows that and therefore knows past, present and future and anticipates any changes that devotees make by their Krishna Consciousness, so ultimately everything, including the changes to destiny that even devotees make, is known by Maha-Vishnu and is predestined by Him. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

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<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by Sarva gattah

Maha-Vishnu can change predestened pathway anytime He wants to please the genune devotees of the Lord. So, yes the future is and isn't set, the future is set as He desires and is changed if He desires.

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The paradoxical and inconcivable conclusion is nicely explained by ghari prabhu -

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Knowing the future does not mean that the future is predestined. That's just what will happen.

Bhagavad-gita 7.26:

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I did not mean to offend you ghari, your understanding of the 'living entities' chooses not being predestined is absolutely right.

The most important point is we are marginal living enitities that has the free will to choose, we are not robots, we are tatastha s'akti and can choose to be with Krishna as His servant or be with Maya. Our free will and the ability to choose between Krishna and Maya is never predestined. We are independant beings with our own individuality, desires and choices of how to please Krishna or how to find our mistaken non Krishna conscious desires within the land of the dreaming facilitated by Maha-Vishnu.

But you contend that all the roles are written, already scripted, we don't 'play' the game - we only observe, because the game is set, the future is set, predetermined, even for the uttama-bhagavat.

 

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<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by Sarva gattah

1. The "future is set" means simply and clearly that the mahat-tattva has already been created by its designer Maha Vishnu; we just enter into His creation and then play it the way we choose.

 

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<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>The devotees on the other hand, can and have the Krishna Conscious ability to change any predestined material event, due to their devotional service. However, Maha-Vishnu also knows that and therefore knows past, present and future and anticipates any changes that devotees make by their Krishna Consciousness, so ultimately everything, including the changes to destiny that even devotees make, is known by Maha-Vishnu and is predestined by Him. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

 

Again you answered your own question with the second post. Understanding the above is not really important, understanding the following is all that is necessary

"My Lord, I consider Your Lordship to be eternal time, the supreme controller, without beginning and end, the all-pervasive one. In distributing Your mercy You are equal to everyone. The dissensions between living beings are due to social intercourse." (Queen Kunti in Srimad Bhagavatam 1.8.28)

Srila Prabhupada - "Kuntidevi knew that <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> was neither her nephew nor an ordinary family member of her parental house. She knew perfectly well that <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> is the primeval Lord who lives in everyone's heart as the Supersoul, Paramatma. Another name of the Paramatma feature of the Lord is kala, or eternal time. Eternal time is the witness of all our actions, good and bad, and thus resultant reactions are destined by Him. It is no use saying that we do not know why we are suffering. We may forget the misdeed for which we may suffer at this present moment, but we must remember that Paramatma is our constant companion and therefore He knows everything -- past, present and future. And because the Paramatma feature of Lord Krishna destines all actions and reactions, He is the supreme controller also. Without His sanction not a blade of grass can move. The living beings are given as much freedom as they deserve, and misuse of that freedom is the cause of suffering. The devotees of the Lord do not misuse their freedom. Others, who misuse their freedom, are put into miseries destined by the eternal kala. The kala offers the conditioned souls both happiness and miseries. It is predestined by eternal time. As we have miseries uncalled for, so we may have happiness also without being asked, for they are predestined by kala. No one is therefore either an enemy or friend of the Lord. Everyone is suffering or enjoying the result of his own destiny.

Srila Prabhupada - "One should not uselessly labor in mental speculation to estimate the Lord's qualities. There is no need of adopting the speculative method or exercising the body to attain mystic yoga perfection. One should simply understand that the distress and happiness of this body are predestined; there is no need to try to avoid the distress of this bodily existence or to attempt to achieve happiness by different types of exercises. The best course is to surrender unto the Supreme Personality of Godhead with body, mind and words and always be engaged in His service. This transcendental labor is fruitful, but other attempts to understand the Absolute Truth are never successful. Therefore an intelligent man does not try to understand the Supreme Person, Absolute Truth, by speculative or mystic power. Rather, he engages in devotional service and depends on the Supreme Personality of Godhead. He knows that whatever may happen to the body is due to his past fruitive activities. If one lives such a simple life in devotional service, then automatically he can inherit the transcendental abode of the Lord. Actually, every living entity is part and parcel of the Supreme Lord and a son of the Godhead. Each has the natural right to inherit and share the transcendental pleasures of the Lord, but due to the contact of matter, conditioned living entities have been practically disinherited. If one adopts the simple method of engaging himself in devotional service, automatically he becomes eligible to become freed from the material contamination and elevated to the transcendental position of associating with the Supreme Lord.

Lord Brahma presented himself to Lord Krsna as the most presumptuous living creature because he wanted to examine the wonder of His personal power. He stole the boys and calves of the Lord in order to see how the Lord would recover them. After his manoeuvre, Lord Brahma admitted that his attempt was most presumptuous, for he was attempting to test his energy before the person of original energy. Coming to his senses, Lord Brahma saw that although he was a very powerful living creature in the estimation of all other living creatures within this material world, in comparison to the power and energy of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, his power was nothing". Chapter of Krsna, "Prayers Offered by Lord Brahma to Lord Krsna."

 

Srila Prabhupada ki Jaya!

Predestination is what I was talking about; what you were talking about. The "future is set" is what the cheater wrote. Stop trying to change the subject and present yourself as superior and me as an idiot. Your lack of integrity here shows you as very inferior, very insincere, as just playng games..

Why is this realizaton of Srila Prabhupada's teachings upsetting you?

1. The "future is set" means simply and clearly that the mahat-tattva has already been created by its designer Maha Vishnu; we just enter into His creation and then play it the way we choose.

2. This is how the entire mahat-tattva creation works, created by its ‘graphics’ designer Maha-Vishnu.

3. The programming, graphics and each possible pathway in mahat-tattva that the ‘player’ may choose, is already programmed into His creation

4. This gives bodily facilities to the visiting souls thought and imagnations and such bodily material 'graphics' are already predestined, created by their designer Maha Vishnu.

5. The 'player or soul' who chooses to enter the mahat-tattva can choose which character he wants to play and therefore can control the destiny of the character he desires to play in the mahat-tattva.

6. That characture (material body) is the creation of the graphics designer Maha-Vishnu, the visting souls just enters those 'characture material bodies' and proceed with their choices like a kid enters a computor game and plays it within the bounderious of that game that has already been built by the computor pragrammer.

7. The Srimad Bhagavatam tells us this material creation is already the dream of Maha-Vishnu and we, the jiva-tattva, are just guests who enter HIS creation and HIS dream to find the corresponding fascilities he has created that gives bodily form to OUR thoughts, desires and material dreams.

But what about the alien moon bases on the dark side of the moon? The aliens have blackmailed everyone. .

Talking about me again?

A mundane example of how this works is' date=' if a young boy plays a video game, the programming, graphics and each possible pathway in that game that the ‘player’ may choose, is already programmed into that game. The player of that game can choose which character he wants to play and therefore can control the destiny of the character within the boundaries of that game he desires to play that has already been created by the graphics designer – we have all played video games, I think you get the drift of what I’m saying. The game has already been created by its designer; we just enter that game and then play it the way we choose. This is how the entire mahat-tattva creation works, created by its ‘graphics’ designer Maha-Vishnu [/color']

 

Ghari can you understand how the mahat-tattva works now and how we operate within the ‘game’ (material creation), according to our free will and chooses?

 

The material bodies we presently occupy and ride around in are the belongings of Maha-Vishnu that we charter off him to pursue our selfish desires of material grander. Each material vessel of subtle and ethereal material components, are always the property of their proprietor, Maha-Vishnu, who provides such 'MATERIAL' vessels to correspond with the material desires and dreams of the souls who have chosen to come down from Goloka to experience their mistaken selfish desires as a passenger in one of Maha-Vishnu's bodily containers or vessels.

 

Each pathway (NOT THE PASSENGER WITHIN WHO CAN CHOSE ANY ROUTE, COURSE, DIRECTION HE DESIRES of the MATERIAL vessels that are already mapped out by Maha-Vishnu within His MAHAT-TATTVA dreaming creation, EACH pathway (NOT THE PASSENGERS) within the material creation is already set and known by Maha-Vishnu, even before the PASSENGER takes birth within that material vessel and traveses down its long and winding road. Such bodily containers and their pathways in the material land of the dreaming always remains the property of Maha-Vishnu and not the souls vistng His dreaming creation.[/quote]

The following insight of the Godless materialistic youth of the world in the 21st century is written by Sri Clayton prabhu

I have been thinking about that tortured kid in Omaha, who shot all those people and then himself. He was complaining about the meaninglessness of his life - the only meaning he could come up with was to kill, then commit suicide. I have never had that kind of perception - I have been through some very rough times, including a stint of homelessness, but I never found life meaningless, and not because of some corny reason like my ‘faith in God’ - for a number of years I was an atheist! Perhaps I always had a problem to be engaged with - perhaps my difficult relationship with my parents kept me engaged in life - there was always hope that things would get better.

One could say that such an intricate creation as the human body and mind is never without meaning—while living. As soon as the soul departs, tho, it is simply a lump of meat to be consigned to the grave or the fire and forgotten’but while living it is very meaningful.

Srila Prabhupada, the great acarya of the Gaudiya-Madhva Sampradaya, the Chaitanya school of self-realization, explains the purpose of it all very simply: ‘The material creation is a chance for the conditioned souls to return back Home, back to Godhead’.

There are several words here: ‘material creation’ ‘conditioned souls’ and ‘return Home’.

‘Material creation’ means what is perceived with our present senses. There are 8,400,000 species of life, and we may take next birth in any of them according to our karma. These worlds expand upwards as Bhur Bhuvah Swaha, Maha Janah Tapaha Satyam, planets where many demigods and sages live, and they expand downwards, also. Besides these, there are the Spiritual Worlds, which are uncreated, and where the residents are perfect and infallible. The material Universes, trillions of them, are only ?? part of the total manifestation. The remaining ?? are in the spiritual world, where Krishna (God) also has His Abode.

‘Conditioned souls'’we have been around an inconceivably long time’trillions of years wandering up and down in the material creations, sometimes a god, sometimes a dog, a tree. A fish, a blade of grass’and in the process, we have acquired habits of being, tastes’we have become conditioned to material life. This is the real theory of evolution’not that the bodies are evolving, but the souls are evolving through different bodies’the bodies are just there, like compartments in a train’lst class, 2d class, 3d class, etc., and according to our capacity to ‘pay’, we get a certain body’but this is not a very good process— we want to get out of this birth, old age, disease, and death and go to the deathless world from which there is no coming back to this martya lok (world of death).

If we can get out (and we have that assurance) we should try to get out of this plane and go ‘back Home’.

The human form of life is ideally suited for this venture’our very form is based on the two-handed Form of Krishna’the difference is, our bodies are made of ignorance, whereas Krishna’s Form, and that of His incarnations and expansions. Is made of Eternity, Knowledge, and Bliss.

This material world has been compared to an ocean of nescience and to a forest fire—the spiritual master is compared to a great raincloud that puts out the blazing fire of material life—and he has been compared to the captain of a great boat (Mahayana) that can cross the ocean of nescience very easily, we simply have to get into the boat by accepting him as our Guide.

Now some would say, the Christians say the same thing about Jesus’what is the difference? The difference is many centuries of speculation and doctrines hammered out because of politics and without knowledge of God’otherwise, Jesus is also our spiritual master, as is St Paul and Prophet Muhammed—but we find the purest thing, aside from the Bible and the Qu’ran, in the beautiful Srimad Bhagavatam, the ‘mature fruit of the desire tree of the Vedas’.

The master of that scripture is the real master, the Jagad Guru (Teacher of the whole Universe). ‘He is the guru of everyone’ the only difference is that some accept him, whereas others do not,’ Srimad Bhagavatam throws out all kinds of ‘kaitava dharma'’cheating religions—this means we are not given the best thing, but are sidetracked into philanthropy, humanitarianism, or liberation, which is compared to a black python coming to devour us. Or, we join some sort of ‘prosperity religion”’pray and grow rich’. Or, we accept many small gods for small favors and neglect the High God. There are many more forms of religious cheatingness.

The soul is simply thirsting for love and affection’power or knowledge will not be satisfactory. Lasting love and affection, however, cannot be found here in the world of death. The greatest spiritual masters come to give us, to connect us with that raso vai sah, the emporium of rasa (taste mellow), the Supreme Personality of Godhead Who is sweetness personified, and who alone can satisfy our thirst for love and sweetness eternally

We want a relationship with that Blue Boy which is more than ‘going to Heaven’ to be with departed loved ones’of course, God can do anything He wants’He can elevate quite ordinary people to His Abode if He wants, but I think He is not such a fool’what we have attained here, we can’t expect much more there, in terms of our relationship with Him’Jesus Himself said, ‘not everybody that says to me Lord, Lord will enter the Kingdom of Heaven, but he that does the will of my Father’. And this will is clearly given in Bhagavad Gita As It Is’it has to be worked out in the heart, under expert guidance.

So there are different colours of God, not precisely the same’Allah is one color, Jehovah another’but these are all facets of the diamond named Krishna. There may be many differences, but love is the same in all.

To become a saint is an impossible ambition in this Age’it is inconceivable’one runs right into the world’s idea of what a saint should be like’one should serve the poor all one’s life, like Mother Theresa, one should never raise one’s voice, never get angry, and so forth, then you can be what the world considers a saint.

Real sainthood has nothing to do with all that! ‘Sarva dharman parityaja mam ekam saranam vraja’ A real saint is one who does not care for religious formularies but is simply the servant of Krishna’s servant. And he has strong faith that thereby everything will be accomplished. The devotees of Srila Prabhupada are all saints, and they are a very variegated bunch, of a great variety of temperaments and devotional styles’they live for the benefit of others.

So why become a killer and a suicide? Why not become a saint? Free will is there. But we are easily misled by our minds, despite our so called ‘reason'’this is why we say, sastra, sadhu, Guru should be our guides, not the independent decision of mind and intellect. Everybody wants to ‘think for himself'’nobody wants to accept authority’so there is always ‘thinking for myself’ but within the guidelines of sastra, sadhu, and Guru’why? Because a blind man cannot cross a busy street by thinking it out for himself. These three direct in the same way, and we need another mental function besides thinking’namely, realizing. The Vedanta-sutra declares, ‘tarkaprathishthanat'’The Supreme Truth cannot be attained by argument and logic’the scope of our ‘thinking’ does not reach to the feet of the Transcendental Autocrat, Who is the Supreme Attractive Beauty, and our Best Friend.

by Sri Clayton prabhu Meaninglessness in Omaha

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So we are concerned with Krsna Consciousness, and even though there is some difference of opinion between modern science and allegorical explanation in the Bhagavata, we have to take the essence of Srimad-Bhagavatam and utilize it for our higher benefit, without bothering about the correctness of the modern science or the allegorical explanation sometimes made in Srimad-Bhagavatam." (Letter 72-11-07)

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The essence of Srimad Bhagavatam is spiritual.

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Men went to the moon, and men have gone to Vrindavana, India. But they need eyes to see what is there. Without eyes we see a sand trap and monkeys. The man whose lotus feet felt the foot dust of Radha and Krsna and the cowherd boys remains puzzled by those who can see only monkeys and sand. I fear our Prabhupada lived far from our world of gunas and darkness, not really knowing just how dull we really are.

 

http://geocities.com/caitanyamahaprabhu/moonthing1.htm

Thanks for that mature understanding, it is absolutely incorrect to claim in the 21st century that the moon is further away than the sun. I even remember how Amoga dasa in 1977 gave class claiming that actually the world is flat. One devotee Somendrinoth dasa, who studied science at university, convienced himself that, yes, the world is flat, then Amoga gave another class saying no actually its round. Somendrinoth was so annoyed because he had convienced himself that the world was flat - within a week this expert book distributor left the movement.

My point of this adventure has been answered by Tripurari Maharaj, thank you.

Did NASA land men on the Moon? Why not? Because, it could have been faked? Because we cannot believe the government? Because some idiot says they didn't do it. Because Lee Harvey Oswald couldn't hit the broad side of a barn? Oops sorry, wrong conspiracy.

OK, it could have been faked. They certainly make movies more realistic than that. Although, they did launch a bunch of humongous rockets. They didn't fake that. Oh, you were not there, and so they could have faked that? What, only people who were in on the scam lived near Cape Canaveral? There were hundreds of thousands of witnesses. [i'm sure that nobody doubts that we launched huge rockets, by the way]

Well, you do not trust the government? I lean that way, myself. They are a bunch of jerks. But they are not always lying. There were a lot of scientists, engineers, and astronauts working on sending men to the Moon. They all kept quiet? Yeah, right. People (even in government) do not keep secrets.

They put stuff on the Moon. Scientists are still bouncing laser beams off mirrors left on the Sea of Tranquility, thanks to the Apollo 11 mission. The physics is right. The rockets were big enough to send three men and all that life support (air, water, food, protection from cosmic rays) to the Moon and back. Radio messages would seem to have come from the Moon. There were witnesses listening in.

Let's pretend that they faked it. Then they spent more money to fake it than it would have cost to actually go to the Moon and back. Why would they bother? I say that it would cost more, because not only did they have to go to the expense to do this (build rockets...), they had to buy everybody's silence.

NASA put men on the Moon. What is the problem with that?

Comment - Even all this is known by Maha-Vishnu before this occurs because he provides the bodily vessels for all those who enter his mahat-tattva creation.

It all depends on one’s insight of the material creation and their ability, by <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comKrishna</st1:place>’s mercy, to view the bigger picture of how every bodily vessel is arranged and put in place within the material creation by Maha-Vishnu. It therefore may appear that everything is not predestined, even to devotees, due to so called choice, free will and karma, when in fact everything is predestined.

<font size=" /><st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>’s mercy, to view the bigger picture of how every bodily vessel is arranged and put in place within the material creation by Maha-Vishnu. It therefore may appear that everything is not predestined, even to devotees, due to so called choice, free will and karma, when in fact everything is predestined.

<FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman">From the top most platform of Maha-Vishnu's blueprint for the maha-tattva, EVERYTHING is predestined because He provides the vessels for every soul’s journey that enters His material creation.

<FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman">The devotees can and have the Krishna Conscious ability to change any predestined material event, due to their devotional service. However, Maha-Vishnu also knows that and therefore knows past, present and future and anticipates any changes that devotees make by their Krishna Consciousness, so ultimately everything, including the changes to destiny that even devotees make, is known by Maha-Vishnu and is predestined by Him.

<FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT size=3>Maha-Vishnu knows when Lord Caitanya comes, He knows when Kalki will come in 427,000 years from now, He can view that time in His eternal ‘present’ reality right now. He sees when a how Lord Caitanya’s movement will grow and bring millions of souls back home back to Godhead. He sees that now. Why? Because He is <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>’s representative who creates, maintains, fascilitates the material creation, builds the pathways, and vessels for all visiting souls to traverse upon and in. All material vessels are His; He knows their destiny which He has already predetermined. Us souls simply act out the parts within His material dream on His gigantic mahat-tattva stage.

Answers by HH Romapada Swami

Question: Was it destined when I was born that I would one day become associated with ISKCON and do all these spiritual activities? If yes, then why do we preach? Won’t people destined to join ISKCON join it, and those not destined to join ISKCON not join it? If no, then does it mean that joining ISKCON is outside the influence of destiny?

Answer: Bhakti is supreme, causeless and fully independent - no material cause can either induce or impede bhakti from appearing in one’s heart. Srila Visvanatha Cakravarthi Thakura analyses this as follows: if material pious deeds, suffering, blind fortune or any such material condition could guarantee or give rise to bhakti, then that material cause would be considered more powerful than bhakti - this is contradictory and cannot be true.

It is therefore understood that bhakti is attained only by the mercy of bhaktas, who carry pure devotion for <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> in their heart. In other words, bhakti (present in the heart of devotees) is the cause of bhakti.

Lord Caitanya taught that a rare and fortunate soul achieves the seed of bhakti through the mercy of a pure devotee.

brahmanda bhramite kona bhagyavan jiva

guru-krishna-prasade paya bhakti-lata-bija

“According to their karma, all living entities are wandering throughout the entire universe. Some of them are being elevated to the upper planetary systems, and some are going down into the lower planetary systems. Out of many millions of wandering living entities, one who is very fortunate gets an opportunity to associate with a bona fide spiritual master by the grace of <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>. By the mercy of both <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> and the spiritual master, such a person receives the seed of the creeper of devotional service.” (Cc Madhya 19.151)

Therefore the pure devotees of the Lord move here and there out of great compassion, taking great troubles to create opportunities for people in general to render devotional service.

Even upon receiving the mercy of the devotees, and getting the seed of this devotional creeper (bhakti-lata-bija), it is the choice of the living entity to take up the process of devotion. In other words, it is a matter of individual freewill. At every point, the conditioned living entity has full freedom of choice to turn his misdirected attention back to the Supreme Lord or not - otherwise there would be no meaning to the term freewill at all. (We have previously discussed freewill and predestination at some length - please see Digest 4 and Digest 12 Q 117)

Thus, it is only by the causeless mercy of devotees, when received and accepted by a conditioned living entity by proper use of their freewill, results in their taking up pure devotional service.

It is sometimes seen that certain individuals take to the process of devotional service very quickly and effortlessly, upon coming in contact with devotees - just like dry wood catching fire. In such cases, it can be understood that they are continuing or resuming their spiritual progress from a previous life. One who takes up the path of spiritual realization, or devotional service, but does not achieve complete success in this lifetime is given a further chance in the next life - this is confirmed by <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> in BG 6.41-44. The Lord arranges in the lives of such persons an environment or an opportunity that is conducive to once again take up the process from where they left. But even in such a case, it is not quite a matter of predestination - the individual still has the full freedom to choose or reject the opportunity given to them, to misuse or to properly utilize it.

Also, <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> is fully independent, and so is Bhaktidevi - thus, it cannot be expected that bhakti is obliged to appear because of one’s previous devotional practices. Srila Prabhupada explains how the transcendental system of devotional service is fully independent — it may or may not develop in a particular person even after he undergoes all the detailed formulas. Similarly, the association of devotees is also free from material causes. One may be fortunate to have it, or one may not have it even after thousands of endeavors. Thus, freedom is the main pivot in all spheres of devotional service. (Cf. SB 1.6.37 p) By sincerely surrendering to the Lord through the transparent medium of the spiritual master, we can hope to attract His causeless mercy.

Comment - Even all this is known by Maha-Vishnu before this occurs because he provides the bodily vessels for all those who enter his mahat-tattva creation.

It all depends on one’s insight of the material creation and their ability, by <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>’s mercy, to view the bigger picture of how every bodily vessel is arranged and put in place within the material creation by Maha-Vishnu. It therefore may appear that everything is not predestined, even to devotees, due to so called choice, free will and karma, when in fact everything is predestined.

From the top most platform of Maha-Vishnu's blueprint for the maha-tattva, EVERYTHING is predestined because He provides the vessels for every soul’s journey that enters His material creation.

The devotees can and have the Krishna Conscious ability to change any predestined material event, due to their devotional service. However, Maha-Vishnu also knows that and therefore knows past, present and future and anticipates any changes that devotees make by their Krishna Consciousness, so ultimately everything, including the changes to destiny that even devotees make, is known by Maha-Vishnu and is predestined by Him.

Maha-Vishnu knows when Lord Caitanya comes, He knows when Kalki will come in 427,000 years from now, He can view that time in His eternal ‘present’ reality right now. He sees when a how Lord Caitanya’s movement will grow and bring millions of souls back home back to Godhead. He sees that now. Why? Because He is <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>’s representative who creates, maintains, fascilitates the material creation, builds the pathways, and vessels for all visiting souls to traverse upon and in. All material vessels are His; He knows their destiny which He has already predetermined. Us souls simply act out the parts within His material dream on His gigantic mahat-tattva stage.

Answers by HH Romapada Swami

Question: In a recent lecture I heard the following explanation: “Our bodies are not ours, even our soul is not something we can claim to be ours, since the soul is directly an energy of Krishna. The only thing which we can claim to be ours is our relationship with Krishna.” Does this mean that, similarly, our free will is the only thing which is ours (that too being given by Krishna)? We can use our free will to come closer to or go further away from our relationship with Krishna. Can we infer it like this also?

Answer: Yes, this is a correct understanding. Our only possession is our relationship with Krishna and the freedom to choose whether or not to act within that relationship is an act of free will.

Another way of saying the same thing is that we, the living entities, are infinitesimal (anu) and therefore have but a tiny free will, thus minute independence. Our only independence is to choose how we regard Krishna and accordingly we are placed under the jurisdiction of either the internal energy or the external, material energy.

Under the influence of the external energy, maya, one may falsely think oneself to be the proprietor and controller of something, at least of one’s own self. But in reality, all of a conditioned soul’s actions and choices are controlled by the modes of material nature (the mahat-tattva).

366) It was also said that “What we think about ourselves (aham) is a measure of how humble we are”. Is it correct to extrapolate it a little by thinking that “What/how much we know about Krishna determines our humbleness”? The more we know/feel the all-merciful, all-loving, all-attractive, all- beautiful and compassionate nature of Krishna, the more we are humbled? In this way, all the great souls like Srila Bhaktivinod Thakur and Srila Narottam Das Thakur know/feel so much about Krishna and hence they are so humble. Please enlighten.

Our conception of self is very dependent upon how much we understand the Supreme Self and our relationship with Him. As Srila Prabhupada would say, self-realization depends upon God-realization, as much as we are able to see ourselves when we simultaneously perceive the light of the sun during daytime.

Thus, we could say that the more we know of Krishna’s greatness, and in turn acknowledge Krishna’s greatness, the more we feel humbled.

Conversely, one who does not know, or fails to acknowledge the fact, that Krishna is the actual controller, enjoyer and best-wishing friend of all and that we are simply His dependent servants — such a person cannot become truly free from pride, however much they may try to do so by other means.

The only free will and choice we have is before we entered these material bodies we chose or were forced to take due to karma. Our pathways have already been created by Maha-Vishnu, it is His dream, not yours or mine, we are simply the visitors to His Mahat-tattva mysterious creation of material bodily vessels and there inert surroundings.

This is important to correctly undertand.

Srila Prabhupada - "They will indicate the positive standing of Srimad-Bhagavatam, which is without trace of mistake, illusion, cheating and imperfection, which are the four flaws of all conditioned souls. The liberated souls are above these flaws; therefore they can see and foretell things which are to take place on distant future dates." (Bhag. 1.3.24)

The future is not set. I can go back to Godhead anytime I really want to. These chains are not rooted in my real self. They will fall away like dust if I can just stand up - just wake up. Stand and fight! It is not fruitless.

There is a bigger picture you are not seeing that you answered yourself

And from Sri Krsna's transcendental platform He can see it all, all of time, all the drama of loving jivas coming to Him, learning how to love Him, climbing mountains to get to Him, desperate to have Him. .

Innocently sweet ghari, the body you have is not you, is not yours, you are not that body that eventually fades away to dust. Your biological body is not controlled by your free will or choices. It is completely under the controlled of Maha-Vishnu because it is bodily part of His mahat tattva dream. Let me explain before you jump to conclusions

Maha-Vishnu can change predestened pathway anytime He wants to please the genune devotees of the Lord. So, yes the future is and isn't set, the future is set as He desires and is changed if He desires.

The only free will and choice you have is before you entered that body you chose or were forced to take due to karma. Our pathways have already been created by Maha-Vishnu, it is His dream, not yours or mine, we are simply the visitors to His Mahat-tattva mysterious creation of material bodily vessels.

This is important to correctly undertand.

Srila Prabhupada - "They will indicate the positive standing of Srimad-Bhagavatam, which is without trace of mistake, illusion, cheating and imperfection, which are the four flaws of all conditioned souls. The liberated souls are above these flaws; therefore they can see and foretell things which are to take place on distant future dates." (Bhag. 1.3.24)

Maha Vishnu knows all past, present and future of his mahat-tattva creation which includes the material bodily vessels you and I are in. Everything is set in the mahat-tattva , everything is already known by its creator Maha-Vishnu however, he can change that anytime He wants to please His pure devotees.

The mahat-tattva is temporary and therefore fades (constantly changing and decaying), then it is totally destroyed and then recreated when Maha-Vishnu again manifests the maha-tattva (all the material universes coming from the pours of His sleeping and dreaming body). Everything is there within His dreams, everything is again possible.

Arjuna is horrifies because he sees all that has happened in the past, all that is happening in the present and all that is happening in the future. He sees the beginning of the material creation and how it also ends, he sees everything that is yet to take place and in total horror, prays to Krishna

This idea of predetermination, the future being already set, I'd have to see a direct quote from Srila Prabhupada before I'd even consider it. To me, Krsna's knowing the future does not imply necessarily that the future is set. That is a trivial conclusion. I think Krsna is greater than that. If it is all mechanical, even bhakti, then there can be no joy in the world for Sri Krsna; and that is not my perception.

 

I do not think we want to obliterate the self like this. Bheda is not illusion - it is acintya but real, for both us and Sri Krsna.

 

Stand and fight!

Srila Prabhupada - "Unless one is liberated from material contamination, he cannot know past, present and future."

GHari prabhu, the understanding of the material unverse is controlled by past, present and future where as in Vaikuntha there is only the perpetual present. If Krishna wants, just like he showed Arjurna, who saw the results of the Kurukshetra War before they happened.

Srila Prabhupada - "Even the most advanced scientist cannot see what is going on in other parts of the universe. Krsna gives him the power to see anything he wants to see, past, present and future. Thus by the mercy of Krsna, Arjuna is able to see everything".

Shakti-Fan, Beggar and co are all on my ignore list, I don't care what they say or care.

This idea of predetermination, the future being already set, I'd have to see a direct quote from Srila Prabhupada before I'd even consider it. To me, Krsna's knowing the future does not imply necessarily that the future is set. That is a trivial conclusion. I think Krsna is greater than that. If it is all mechanical, even bhakti, then there can be no joy in the world for Sri Krsna; and that is not my perception.

 

I do not think we want to obliterate the self like this. Bheda is not illusion - it is acintya but real, for both us and Sri Krsna.

A titani--past; vartamanani--present bhavisyani--future is already set within the mahat-tattva dreams of Maha-Vishnu

O Arjuna, as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, I know everything that has happened in the past, all that is happening in the present, and all things that are yet to come. I also know all living entities; but Me no one knows. Chapter 7. Knowledge of the Absolute Text 26

Srila Prabhupada - Anyone with a material body cannot remember his past life, nor can he foretell his future life, nor can he predict the outcome of his present life; therefore he cannot know what is happening in past, present and future. Unless one is liberated from material contamination, he cannot know past, present and future".

Srila Prabhupada - "Unlike the ordinary human being, Lord Krsna clearly says that He completely knows what happened in the past, what is happening in the present, and what will happen in the future".

Srila Prabhupada - The primeval Lord Sri Krishna also says in Bhagavad-gita (Bg. 7.26) that He is fully conscious of past, present and future". Chapter 7. Knowledge of the Absolute Text 26 Purport

The material bological bodies we presently occupy are the belongings of Maha-Vishnu that we can choose to charter off him in order to pursue our selfish desires of material grander without the personal presents of Krishna.

Each material vessel of subtle and ethereal material components, for a temporary time, house the living entity. Such vessels always remains the property of their proprietor Maha-Vishnu, who knows the past, present and future pathway of each vessel.

Maha-Vishnu provides these material vessels that correspond with the material desires of those who have chosen to come down from Goloka and experience their mistaken selfish desires.

Each pathway of all vessels are already mapped out and ones pathway in life is already set and Known by Maha-Vishnu even before they take birth in such vessels. Such vessels always remain the property and ornaments of Maha-Vishnu's mahat-tattva creation in this manifestation of past, present and future and also in the next.

Srila Prabhupada is found within his books, letters, morning walk conversations and classes; the only division is in the eyes of the beholder. To me Srila Prabhupada is as he was when I received initiation from him in 1972.

How is it one can forget Goloka-Vrndavan?

<!--the main section of the post goes here-->The following is a pastime (Lila) of the great sage Narada-Muni that took place walking with Krishna outside the walls of Dwarka in Goloka-Vrindavan. Krishna was about to teach Narada a valuable lesson about the powerful effects of Maya (forgetfulness)

Narada Muni, a great Devotee of Lord Krishna, was once walking outside the perimeter of Dwarka (one of Krishna’s great Palaces) with the Lord. As they walked, Narada asked Krishna,

“How is it one can forget such a beautiful place as Goloka-Vrndavan? ‘How could a devotee forget Krishna and end up in the temporary material world in an ethereal (heavenly) or biological (earthly) body?”

Narada looked at Krishna in total ecstasy and bliss wondering how anyone could leave such beauty. He was confused, as he new the material universe was full of souls who all were previously with Krishna in their genuine eternal ‘svarupa’ form that is perpetually endowed with an imperishable identity, personality and individuality. Such souls had chosen to did exactly that, forgot Krishna and their own real identity, by turning their back on Him and manufacturing so many counterfeit identities, personalities and forms outside of Goloka-Vrindavan, within the temporary material universe, how could this happen?

As they walked through the forest, a young girl caught Narada’s attention; she was struggling to carry two buckets of water near a well. Out of pity, Narada went over and offered his helping hand to the struggling girl; she gladly accepted his offer, as she was exhausted. Gladly and compassionate Narada Muni carried the two buckets of water and proceeded to the girls’ destination at a nearby Village.

On the way there, the simplicity and innocents of this beautiful young girl was so sweet and captivating that Narada was speechless in her association. She broke the silence by explaining she was the daughter of the Village elder and her father was a great leader and devotee of Krishna. Narada, however was so captivated by the girl’s sweet voice, flowing long hair and colourful sari, he was not listening. He was totally dumbfounded in her presents.

When they arrived at the Village, the girl introduced her new friend to her father. He was very impressed by Narada’s qualities, and thought this man must be a great devotee of Lord Krishna. He immediately further thought ‘what a nice husband this young man would make for my daughter’ The Village elder felt obligated to reward Narada for his service.

All the Villagers gathered around thinking Narada must be a great Sage and suggested the best reward for him was the village elder’s daughter in marriage. Narada Muni was so attached and comfortable with the girl that he accepted the offering! The wedding day arrived and everyone in the surrounding area came. The Village Brahmin’s (priests) performed the fire yajna (purification ceremony) and many gifts were given. After the marriage Narada and his new wife settled in performing various duties.

Narada eventually became the Head Master of the Gurukula (school). In due course his wife fell pregnant with their first child. A boy was born and the Village was ecstatic, celebrating late into the night. As time went on, Narada’s happiness increased being with his family and living in the Village, he never had a worry in the world. Over the years he was bestowed another six children. He enjoyed watching them grow, becoming educated and playing sporting games with them. All his children were adorned with beautiful qualities.

Twenty years had passed, his father in-law, the Village elder, passed away suddenly due to illness; everyone was saddened and would only accept Narada as the new Village elder.

Many more years passed and he eventually gave permission to a young boy to marry his daughter. Everything was so perfect, so peaceful. Narada was totally satisfied with his wife, children, grandchildren and all the wonderful people in the Village.

Then one day an enormous storm came to the Village, pelting heavy rain with strong winds that destroyed houses. Narada decided he must immediately evacuate the Village, but it was too late, flooding had made it impossible to escape. The storm became more intense, the water level was rising fast and raging torrents destroyed everything in its path.

Narada frantically searched for his wife, children, grandchildren and friends, He found himself trapped on a plank of wood in the raging torrents looking everywhere through the hail, wind and ragging water for his wife, but new she must have been washed away by the flood. His son in law and daughter also found a plank of wood attempting to ride out the storm however, it only got worse and they eventually lost their footing and also perished. Then to Narada’s amazement he saw two of his young grand children high up in a tree holding on to dear life. Narada reached out to them screaming,

“Just hold on to me, give me your hand and I will save you!”

They reached out and at the same time a huge wave overpowered all of them, frantically Narada searched through the water screaming out for his grandchildren, but they also had perished. He continued calling out,

“Don’t leave me, just hold on somehow, don’t leave me!”

Then he also perished in the flood. At that exact moment, Narada felt a tap on the shoulder, he slowly opened his eyes still lamenting and wanting to be with his family. He found himself sitting against a well; again Narada yelled out in bewilderment,

“Where is my family?”

Then realized the tap on the shoulder was from Krishna standing next to him. Krishna laughed and said,

“You wanted to know how powerful Maya (forgetfulness) was, so I showed you. You have been sitting against that well for no more than a moment!”

Coming to his senses, Narada says to Krishna,

“You mean all that experience, my wife, my children, my friends, my wealth, my fame, my followers, the Village, was a dream?”

Krishna replies,

“No, it is all real but everything outside my Kingdom is impermanent. Your entire experience was a lesson to show you how easy it is for even a devotee in Goloka-Vrindavan, who is eternally liberated (nitya siddha), to imagine themselves to be eternally conditioned in the material creation (nitya-baddha). This happens by simply choosing to no longer serve Me, just as you have done by also allowing yourself to choose to l be captivated by Maya (forgetfulness and illusion) and ‘imagine’ your self fallen to a temporary bodily vessel of transitory nature that is subject to forgetfulness birth, disease, old age short memory and death. This condition is experienced in the impermanent creation that exists only within My material universe outside My Eternal abode of Goloka Vrindavan/Vaikuntha.

In My Spiritual Universe, there is no death and everything happens within the perpetual ‘present’, however as soon as you chose to forget Me and help the girl, you were immediately transferred to My material universe of past, present and future and experienced the fleeting forgetful nature of the transitory universe, including death by drowning.

This is because you were attached to something other than loving devotional service to Me; (Krishna or God) you chose to turn your back on me just for a moment to help the young girl and became captivated by your own selfless compassion to help her, so much so you forgot Me! That moment seemed like a lifetime.

Genuine selflessness is doing everything for My pleaser and you, along with others, simply become inattentive. Many of my devotees experience this illusion like you have so I can teach them a valuable lesson about the temporary universe of imagination. However, others who turn their back on me, by choosing to become attracted to their selfish desires, imaginings and thoughts of achieving independent grander, can remain in the material universe in forgetfulness for what seems to be an eternity.

They forget their true ‘svarupa’ form, identify, personality and individuality for nearly an eternity, transmigrating through many millions of counterfeit ethereal and biological bodies in their search for so called happiness.

In the material world, this is like chasing after a mirage in the desert that only appears real, but in reality is only an illusion. The impermanent universe is both real and an illusion because it is transitory. This is what temporary ethereal (heavenly or hellish) and biological (earthly) bodies in the material universe are like, they all end in disappointment because they fade away because everything one has accumulated and worked so hard to achieve is lost and ultimately forgotten – everything just fades in time.

Conditioned souls who are trapped in the material universe in the imaginary condition of nitya-baddha, experience that ‘moment’ of being away from my Kingdom as billions upon billions of life times in billions of different bodies. This experience seems like an eternity, so much so, many foolishly come to believe the Impersonal inactive effulgent Brahmajoyti, or bright light, which is the motionless effulgence of trillions of individual jivas surrounding My body, is the starting and ending point of their existence. All of them have forgotten their real form and relationship with Me in Goloka-Vrindavan

This is very difficult to understand without My favour because it is very complicated for you to comprehend the eternal stage on which all this illusion within the impermanent material universe is unfolding.

In actual fact, all of those jivas were once like you and had a personal intimate relationship with Me in Goloka-Vrindavan, they still do, but have temporally forgotten due to entering the creation of imagination through their thoughts, they are think they are fallen but just like you sitting against the well, have not gone anywhere. As in your case of sitting against the well and captivated by absent-mindedness just for a moment, the consciousness of those who choose to leave My Personal abode and their real nitya-siddha form, identity, personality and individually have also become forgetful, leaving behind their original form, just as you did Narada, in Goloka-Vrindavan. On leaving your true identity through your thoughts, you then fabricate numerus counterfeit forms, identities and personalities like one does in a dream at night.

Some in this way transfer their consciousness by the power of thought and imagination to the material universe, as your inattentive sub-conscious imagination had just experienced, turning their back on Me and pursue their own interests.

In actual fact there is no beginning or ending point of the jiva tatastha. This Impersonal conclusion by some lost souls, which includes many learned Vaisnavas and caste Goswami’s (My devotees), have miss understood that their eternal relationship with Me that is always there in Goloka-Vrindavan, even if they have forgotten because their existence in the material creation is only their imagination.

Their impersonal idea that souls originates from the Brahmajoyti from a plain sheet of consciousness, from whence new souls are continuously being generated, is due to the long association they have had within many fleeting bodies within the temporary universe. Being trapped in the imagination of their own minds, forgetting they have only ‘willed’ and ‘thought’ their present nitya baddha counterfeit ‘imaginary’ identities and association for so, so long, that they have forgotten completely their original ‘svarupa’ form, identity, personality individuality from whence all this material hallucination is projected from.

They have forgotten their selfless devotional love in their eternal relationship with Me, as you, Narada, have just done. Even a great devotee like you should never underestimate the power of My Maya (forgetfulness and illusion)”! And never forget that being marginal living entities there is always the free will to choose how to serve Me or forget Me all together by imagining yourself to no longer be with Me, forgetting your perpetual ‘svarupa’ body in the process.

What is Maya? Maya, forgetfulness, illusion, ‘that which is not’, a personality who controls the impermanent energy, i.e., the ethereal (heavenly and hellish) and biological (earthly) container the soul manifests, as well as the mental delusions suffered by the forgetful jiva after leaving the Kingdom of God. Maya’s duty is to make sure no one disturbs Krishna by offering the aspiring devotees wealth, riches, beauty (female or male), and knowledge of the celestial technological heavenly realms and technologically earthly realm as a test to see what one really wants.

Human civilizations throughout the centuries have repeatedly attempted to build a permanent existence as well as prepare their present bodies with wealth and belongings to take with them into a heavenly ‘after-life’ where they believe they will live forever, why this is not possible in this temporary world will be fully explained in this thesis.

From the beginning of time, so many cultures have tried to prepare, with their inherent instinctual belief in an after life, to enter a Perpetual Kingdom of God. They unfortunately mistakenly come to believe that this transitory universe, with its heavenly rewards, is their real home (Explained later when explaining the heavenly planets within the interim creation in higher levels of the material universe existing in a non-biological sub-space dimension).

All things must pass

The attempt to achieve happiness, love and sensual pleasures in an impermanent atmosphere will, in due course, frustrates an intelligent human being because; in the end, all they have worked so hard to build up over their lifetime is all taken away. Whatever material acquisitions built up over their lifetime eventually wears out and erodes away.

Ultimately they loose everything anyway as forgetfulness, disease, old age and death over comes them. The phenomenon of death, also known as ‘forgetfulness’, is an abnormal state the jiva or individual life force is overcome by while travelling in and identifying with the outward biological human bodily garment or vehicle while contained in the temporary universe.

The attempt to build a perpetual blissful home on earth in a biological body, or in heaven in a non-biological ethereal body is not possible because everything eventually breaks down and fades away in the impermanent material universe.

Even in the heavenly planets, that are rewards for Jains, Buddhists, Christians, Muslims, Jews and most branches of Hinduism, due to their performance of penance and austerity, exists only a temporary celestial manifestation within the boundaries of the material universe where one can live for thousands of years but also must pass on.

Only jivas who fall from the Brahmajoyti, having first originally previously first fallen from Vaikuntha or Goloka-Vrindavan long, long, long before they mistakenly accepted the Impersonal Brahmajoyti as their origins, have to start their active existence from the beginnings of biological life.

Only after billions of life times, do they unfortunately make their way to the Brahmajoyti. They do not know or remember how they were introduced or originally fell from Goloka-Vrindavan/Vaikuntha to the temporary universe in the first place and foolishly believe the Brahmajoyti is both the source of their existence and liberation.

Unfortunately the separation of the individual jiva from Krishna’s Personal abode has been so long periods of time they foolishly believe their origins are the Brahmajoyti. These jivas, who think they have originated from the Brahmajoyti, first manifest an ethereal body that stays with them for as long as they exist in the impermanent universe. From that ethereal body all other insubstantial and biological forms are projected.

Coming from the Brahmajoyti means these embodied jivas have to start their active existence from the most basic form of life first attained after leaving that effulgent light. From there the now embodied jiva has to go through the billions of biological bodily mapped out by evolution until the human body is again attained. It must be made clear this extremely lengthy process is only for the jivas who have previously merged there identity, individuality, personality and form into a minute spark of individual living light and therefore have entered or merged themselves (individual spark) into the brightness of the Impersonal Brahmajoyti.

Such souls have to start off at the very basis of biological life when they again re-emerge from their Impersonal slumber.

Impersonalism is a very dangerous philosophy to follow and is often referred to by devotees of Krishna as Spiritual suicide. The Impersonal effulgence or Brahman is where unlimited other ‘inactive jivas’ exist and vibrate their form impersonally as individual living sparks of light that collectively make up what is also known as the Impersonal Nirvana. All of them who enter the Brahmajoyti, except for some rare Impersonalist yogis, have to start at scratch (entering the body of a microbe) when they eventually desire activity and fall out of that Impersonal sense of oneness.

Followers of Lord Buddha and the Jains practice sever penance and austerities attempting to free themselves from karma. Their austerity however, has the side effect of accumulating pious karma that allows them entry into the heavenly planets. These higher dimensional supernatural worlds, known as the heavenly planets, exist in sub-space which are a insubstantial manifestation of the temporary material energy where the ethereal non-biological material body, that is temporary but not inert material lifeless energy, contains the eternal jiva or soul and resides separately encased in the ethereal living body.

The embodied jiva souls, even though contained in material bodily vessels equipped to be able to allow life to move freely as the mahat-tattva within the mahat-tattva. Such material vehicles have a structure to them and are apart from the lifeless inert sub-space-matter that the sub-space heavenly and hellish planets are made of.

In this thesis it should be made clear the words material and matter is lifeless substance or energy. In other words we do not live in an inert material body but rather we live in an ethereal material vessel suitable to maintain the presents of life that further creates a biological material covering.

There is a difference between inert matter and ethereal and biological matter however; both are part and parcel of the mahat-tattva material creation of Maha-Vishnu. Inert matter refers to the lifeless by-products left over by the embodied jivas once they vacate the biological body of 'charged matter due to the presents of life' moved by the embodied jiva. The inert matter is what makes up our mountains, planets, moon and stars because originally all inert matter s left over from the previous presents of life.

Both the jivas ethereal bodies or containments and the surrounding sub-space lifeless material energy are not generally perceived by the embodied ‘jivas projected biological containments’ that the ethereal body eventually manifests as a further extension of the ethereal body. The biological restraint or body covers the ethereal body and resides in a dimension like our earthly planet that is called secular space that is far more gross and solid than sub-space matter however, both realities are material where as the ethereal body and its extended biological body are not material.

The ethereal body in material sub-space is also called the supernatural-realm; where as the biological containment in secular-space is called the natural-realm. Both the natural and the supernatural are not spiritual; they are different dimensions within the material realm.

 

The scholar and the street sweeper

<!--the main section of the post goes here-->There is a pastime in the Vedas about a caste Vaisnava (devotee of Krishna) learned scholar (jnani) who new all the workings of the universe and all the verses of the Vedas, he was very proud of his knowledge and universal understandings. Out side his room was a simple minded street sweeper who new nothing of the workings of the universe however, was always thinking of Krishna, serving His devotees and chanting His holey name’s 24 hours a day.

The great sage Narada-Muni asked Krishna:

“Who would be liberated first, the knowledgeable proud jnani or the humble street sweeper’.

Krishna told Narada to go to them both and tell them:

“I am threading an Elephant through the eye of needle”

Narada first went to the jnani and during the course of the conversation, told him Krishna was in Goloka-Vrindavan threading an elephant through the eye of a needle.

The jnani laughed and chastised Narada for talking nonsense,

“That is impossible”

The jnani proclaimed and added,

“I’m no sentimentalist, how can you expect me to believe such nonsense”

Narada then went to see the street sweeper and also told him Krishna was threading an elephant through the eye of a needle. The street sweeper was ecstatic and proclaimed:

“Krishna is the Supreme Personality Of Godhead, the creator of the Universe, how wonderful it is He can do anything He chooses, all glories to Lord Krishna the source of all our abilities and talents”

Narada then returned to Goloka-Vrindavan and told Krishna what had happened and again asked who would return back to Goloka-Vrindavan first, the scholar or the street sweeper? Krishna answered:

“The jnani (scholar) would spend an unknown number of lives, maybe a thousand, or 100,000 life times in the temporary world due to his pride and attachment to the title of Gosvami and the accumulating of knowledge. On the other hand, the street sweeper would be liberated at the end of his present body, and return back to my Personal abode because of his unconditional attachment to Me”.

Krishna further explained the jnani was more attached to his accumulation of knowledge and rituals than simple service to Krishna, where as the street sweeper was totally attached to the Lords Lotus Feet and always at the feet of other devotees.

Lord Krishna further added:

“The only objective that is important is for one to get out of both the cycle of birth and death and the temporary universe by simply being attached to My pure devotees and publicly chanting My names for the benefit of others, who are also entangled in the material world. This can be achieved no matter what ones occupation is”.

Maya or the illusory energy and forgetfulness has an eternal time span to train up and condition the jiva to possess any temporary body manifested simultaneously by the Maya’s energy and jivas desire.

Unfortunately karma (what goes around comes around or action and reaction) entangles the embodied jiva’s to what appears to be an eternity, all what they had previously desired becomes forgotten, restricted and squashed by the constant backlog of karma visiting the embodied jiva. In this way the jiva’s loose their way and ultimately forget what they previously wanted in the first place after leaving the Personal Kingdom of God due to the long, long ago association with the impermanent energy and the massive accumulation of reactions to the actions they have performed in their travels through so many human bodily identities and forms.

The embodied jivas become so covered by their own forgetfulness, they no longer know what they want other than eating, sleeping, mating and defending, they are now basically pushed around in the material universe like waves push around a boat at sea without a ruder.

However, if the embodied jiva can make it to Krishna’s Kingdom by holding tightly onto the feet of a pure devotee, that seemingly feeling of eternity in the impermanent universal ocean will only appear like the blink of an eye!

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: rgb(102,102,102) 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: rgb(102,102,102) 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(102,102,102) 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: rgb(102,102,102) 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by Inedible

As a new person here, I find the disputes make the whole site seem unwelcoming. My plan was to learn more about Hinduism and Yoga by coming here.

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Quote:And here is the fruit of all the squabbling. The real tragedy. We all will be held responsible for our words as well as our deeds.

 

May Krishna and his gentle humble caring devotees have mercy on all those souls who want a simplistic way back home back to Krishna.

In this age of hypocrisy and quarrel the only way of deliverance is the congregational chanting of the Hare Krishna mantra in the <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com<st1:place w:st="on">Temple</st1:place></st1:City>, in the home and on the streets of all Cities and Towns all over the world

Points taken, very nicely explained in a humble Krishna conscious view