Sarva gattah

the idea of guru reformation is an oxymoron. If a guru is need of reform he is not a guru.

Yes this is why the 11 appointed guru fiasco failed however, purification or 'reform' takes generations and many or most of them now acting as Guru are also still in the early purification stages.

This does not disqualify them from being Guru.

I disagree with you.

ISKCON has to be constantly REFORMED (REFINED) to the level of mature Krishna Consciousness, which means practising MATURELY and refining or reinventing what has always been within Srila Prabhupada’s teachings.

To be Guru, one simply needs to follow strictly, Prabhupada say that IS pure Devotee

Actually, this is the only way to develop ISKCON into a pure Society of Vaishnava's. There are different levels of pure devotees and as time goes on some will be nore predominant than others in preaching however the unbrella of ISKCON always must be there for the benefit of a global society. 'A group of matches together is stronger than a single match on its own'

The reform or the purification will take time and those who have strictly followed for thirty or so years ARE qualified to be Guru, based on there strict chanting of 16 rounds and following the principles of Krsna Consciousness. THAT IS THEIR QUALIFICATION Prabhupada was a nitya-siddha devotee who came down to help us, not all Gurus have to be nitya-siddha like Prabhupada

The Dandavats article (http://www.dandavats.com/?p=5834 )should clarify this point that ISKCON ALWAYS need to be reformed in this regard

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by krsna

It's better to light a candle than to curse the darkness. -- Chinese proverb

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

<!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->I like that, thank you prabhu.

 

 

In other words we can lament and wollow in all the worlds or ISKCON's problems and pollute our consciousness. Or we can get right into our own Sadhana of hearing and chanting Hare Krsna and telling everyone we meet about Krishna and become fixed up enough to handle the dulusional momements and lamentations as this body dies and we are forced to vacate

 

So while we still have the chance, while the material body is still functional, tell others ONLY about Krsna, giving others the only help they really need. And just avoid those so called leaders (managers) you don't see eye to eye with who are only interested lording it over others in this present pioneering version of ISKCON. Such reformers who are actually determined to maintain the status quo 'old guard' style of management as their reform. This is what they mean by reforming the reformer. However they misunderstand that Prabhupada gave us everything and now we must advance or mature to that high level or standard that certainly was not there over the last 30 years.

 

So where the problem is, many are trying to hold on to that immature dictatorial, arrogent. self rightious style of managent THAT DOES NEED TO BE REFORMED (Simply meaning to mature in the philosophy).

 

The word 'reform' means transformation or developement, or in other words, 'reforming' or coming to the correct standard already put in place in Prabhupada's books. So in this way, ISKCON certainly needs reform!!

Very interesting. There is an old saying about pioneers, it's hard for them to understand that those who come after them, will eventually become more refined AND MATURE in understanding the teaching of Vedanta given to us by Srila Prabhupada.

ISKCON has to be constantly REFORMED to the level of mature Krshna Consciousness which means practising MATURELY what has always been within Srila Prabhupadas teachings

The Dandavats article (http://www.dandavats.com/?p=5834 )has missed this valid point that ISKCON does need to be reformed in this regard

The final proof, as clearly explained by His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, is that all jiva/souls or marginal living entities are originally (Which means eternally when refering to the Kingdom of God) , serving Krishna perpetually as their full devotional bodily form, but have presently, due to choice, forgotten their real eternal vigraha (form) svarupa (devotional body) that is always present in Krsnaloka.

This means all living entities have an imperishable bodily form called ‘svarupa’ which is the full potential and expression of all marginal living beings who are all within the ‘eternal present’ of time and space, devoid of past and future within Gods eternal Kingdom known as Goloka Vrndavana or Krsnaloka right now.

Within that unending world, all living entities are perpetually existing, which means they are always present there in ‘the eternal present’ without the concept of past and future as their bodily (vigraha) svarupa (devotional personality) form, whom are the eternal servants of the Supreme Personality of Godhead Lord Krishna. Therefore, ALL living entities were created as sat, chit, ananda in the form of eternal vigraha in the beginning (which paradoxically was beginningless).

In this way, the original residence of all living entities (marginal beings) is their original home Goloka-Vrndavana or Krsnaloka, which is the imperishable Kingdom of God.

Srila Prabhupada - We have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago." - Lecture on Bhagavad-gita on August 6, 1973

Srila Prabhupada: You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there…So actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget Krishna by the cloud of illusion, then that is material. Try to understand”. In a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971

The paradox here is no one never really leaves Goloka, they only imagine they do by falling out of sync with the 'eternal present'

The resulting paradox is that while one is in the material world, they are actually in the material world because not only do they have no memory of their 'eternal svarupa' body, but also they have consciously separated themselves from the eternal present’ where their real eternal bodily self resides.

It's almost as if the awareness of the living entities nitya siddha body is suspended within the eternal present because of consciously falling out of sync with the ETERNAL PRESENT’ of Krsnaloka where their 'permanent 'real' bodily self is serving Krsna. (At least it is this way to those who have fallen from the eternal present realm)

But actually from the point of view of Goloka, everything is still going on in the service of the Lord in relationships with Krishna and His associates nothing is ever suspended there.

The only thing that has changed is the ones awareness of 'eternal time' in relation to 'divided time' - hence it is not a division of consciousness, but rather a division of time.

Actually, when one again becomes aware of their eternal nitya-siddha body and relationship with Krishna, it will be as if their baddha-jiva dream state never existed. On return to the 'eternal present’, it will be as if they never left because nothing has changed in Goloka.

1. The 'eternal present' in the imperishable Vaikuntha and Krsnaloka Planets, can never be compared to the mahat-tattva dreams of Maha-Vishnu where the time span of a trillion mahat-tattva material universes, that seem an almost eternity in material time, would only appear no more than a mere moment of time in the eternal Kingdom of God and selfless devotion (Vaikuntha)

2. And the divided time of 'past, present and future' of the perishable mahat-tattva, that has a further distortions of time and space in the higher, middle and lower material planetary systems, were there is even more dimensions of material time and space within the mahat-tattva, different again from our experience and perception of time on our middle earth planet.

Sarva

Realist's posting #116 is a perfectly drafted exposition. Realist, You should immediately post it as its own thread and/or add it to the "Advaita Thread".

 

I thank you for your lucide delineation of "Jiva-tattva" --and thus the path of the Jivatma's sojourn afar from Krishna's side..

 

 

 

 

 

 

Srila Prabhupada – ‘originally everyone (all marginal living entities) is nitya-siddha’.

 

Srila Prabhupada - “Originally everyone is nitya-siddha. nitya-siddha krsna-bhakti ’sadhya’ kabhu naya sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya. Every living entity originally nitya-siddha, ". Srimad-Bhagavatam Class 7.9.4– Mayapur, February 18, 1977

 

Our original position is eternal, we are all eternally nitya-siddha which IS our original and eternal position, presently covered while we dream away in the material creation.

The Brahmajyoti or Krsna’s effulgence, IS the entire creation, divided up into three zones of conscious thought, from devotional activity in the Vaikunthas, to conditioned activity in the mahat-tattva, to inactivity in the dormant dreamless state - All are aspects of the Brahmajyoti

These different aspects of the Brahmajyoti can be achieved or experienced by free will and choice however, ONLY Krsna's abode and the Vaikunthas, that make up 75% of the Brahmajyoti, Spiritual Sky or creation, are without end and situated in the personal active 'eternal present' of Krsna's perpetual pastimes.

The other 25% of the Brahmajyoti is made up of those who have chosen to forgotten their nitya -siddha body in the 'eternal present' and have entered that part of creation known as the perishable mahat-tattva and later on may enter the temporary impersonal Brahman, both in a 'dream consciousness' known as the baddha-jiva.

This devotional active original fullness of the Brahmajyoti is eternal personal, which means it is made up of ALL living entities that are perpetually represented there in their perpetual nitya-siddha body serving Krsna

For a living entity, who has transmigrated through the lower species to the human biological body, simply means that the living entity had FIRST chosen to ‘consciously (like in a dream), fall down from Krsnaloka, long, long, long ago, from also the eternal body that is their real perpetual ‘self’ (nitya-siddha) whose only activity there is serving Krsna or God.

This was achieved by free will and choice; the marginal living entity therefore is able to leave Goloka ‘consciously’ as their secondary lower baddha-jiva consciousness and travel to the heavenly planets within the mahat-tattva creation of Maha-Vishnu.

The baddha-jiva may then travel further to the middle planets, then the hellish planets, and the then to lower species of biological life.

Some baddha-jivas may also take shelter in the dormant aspect of their own baddha-jiva consciousness that is collectively, along with other baddha-jivas who have also chosen the dreamless dream state, known as the impersonal aspect of the Brahman effulgence

The impersonal characteristic of the Brahmajyoti or Brahman IS the nitya-baddha souls in a collective of souls that IS the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti.

The brahmajyoti is full of jiva-souls; the word sarva-gatah means life IS the Brahmajyoti and is everywhere. So, what is the Brahmajyoti?

The Brahmajyoti or Krsna’s effulgence, IS the entire creation, divided up into three zones of conscious thought, from devotional activity in the Vaikunthas, to conditioned activity in the mahat-tattva, to inactivity in the dormant dreamless state - All are aspects of the Brahmajyoti

1.The Vaikunthas and Krsnaloka those are always active in service to Krsna or Vishnu

2. The mahat-tattva or material creation of Maha-Vishnu that is where the marginal living entity can CHOOSE to go to lead their own way of life without Krsna

3. When those who have entered the mahat-tattva become fed up with the temporary frustrating nature of the material world and the vessels or bodies they move around in, they often seek an inactive dormant state of consciousness.

They only seek out such an end to their existence because they still have no memory or recollection of their eternal body in Krsnaloka.

Therefore, due to this ignorant state the baddha-jiva is in, they choose to learn through the yogic process, to ‘close their consciousness down’ and stop the generation of thought. (which can be achieved, but is also a temporary dormant 'state of the baddha-jiva's consciousness".

This dormant conscious state of the baddha-jiva is known as the impersonal Brahmajyoti, which means it is the ‘inactive ‘state of consciousness of the souls that make up and IS the Personal Brahmajyoti – hence its reflection is the impersonal aspect of that same Brahmajyoti.

So we should all try to understand our original position that is our eternal identity in Krsnaloka', as Prabhupada would say’.

Actually there is no birth of the jivas. They are all eternal, like Krishna Himself. Many things in the shastra is said to convince the jivas conditioned in the material world, that their real home is Krsnaloka. There are so many things that Vedic sastra has told us, whereas in reality, in Goloka Vrndavana dhama (Krsnaloka), due to the 'eternal presents', where there is no past or future, these things will be seen in another way.

What is that other way that many say is conceivable to understand?

The simple answer is, on that level or ‘seeing things in an other way’, is the material creation, of trillion upon trillions of years and life times, will appear no-more than a moment of dreaming in Krsnaloka.

“Formerly we were with Krsna in His Lila” Letter from Srila Prabhupada in 1972 to devotee in Australia

No one like a cowherd boy, lies down and sleeps in Goloka, then dreams they are in the material world. No, it is not like that.

The cow herd boy laying down sleeping and then dreams, in no way represents how the living entity comes down 'sub-consciously' from their perpetual nitya-siddha body to the material creation as their baddha-jiva dreaming conscious state.

Actually because of the ‘concept of time’, there are really no two states of consciousness, which means there is really no sub conscious secondary self, even though it is explained that way. Within the 'eternal presents' there is only one 'concept of time' and 'one eternal nitya siddha form of each marginal living being' that is eternally present in Goloka or Krsnaloka.

What is really going on is to do with time, the time that separates the ‘eternal present’ in Goloka from the divided time of ‘past, present and future of the mahat-tattva.

Srila Prabhupada – ‘originally everyone (all marginal living entities) is nitya-siddha’.

Srila Prabhupada - “Originally everyone is nitya-siddha. nitya-siddha krsna-bhakti ’sadhya’ kabhu naya sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya. Every living entity originally nitya-siddha, ". Srimad-Bhagavatam Class 7.9.4– Mayapur, February 18, 1977

Beggar, the answer is simple, speaking put into writing is attempting to communicate knowledge of the Absolute to those who are quakified to understand.

Actually this is why Vysa wrote the Vedas however, without the person Bhagavat (the spiritual Master), or some spiritual piety that attracts one to even just a painting of the Lord and His devotees within a book, then such words are only ink on paper.

Just like you cannot build a stair case to heaven, you also cannot understand your relationship with God with just a pen on paper or a computor or even a having a book like Srimad Bhagavatam. One must have the favour of their spiritual master, even if that is in the form of chastisement, as in my case.

The point is, these things CAN be understood by personal realization, but ONLY by the direct guidance and help from ones Guru. As the christians say, 'there is no other way' no-one goes back to the father without the mercy of the Spiritual Master

To understand the following quote from my previous post, only comes by personal realizations based on one's service to ones Spiritual Master, or even, as in my cause, the causeless mercy of my spiritual Master. As you can see. this is very personal and therefore difficult for the 'ink writers' alone with their ink and computors to understand. It is like trying to lick and taste the nectar of honey by licking the glass jar or container that the honey is sealed in.

This is why all marginal living entities have free will and the ability to choose, so they can serve Krsna with their own offerings, or jointly with other devotees, they create or think of themselves. This is why individuality and free will is paramount, without it, we are just pawns or robots without any ability to love, to give, to serve.

Such incredible statements are mind-boggling because how is it possible to calculate endless Spiritual creation without Bhakti (Ever expanding loving personal service with ones own individual creativity, to Krishna)? Even just a little service to a pure devotee can save one from the greatest fear and allow one to understand things that have always been inconceivable to others

The following is a class given on the 5<SUP>th</SUP> June 2008 at a Hare Krsna farm at Bega Southern NSW Australia.

Srila Prabhupada has explained that our original and perpetual state of being is a nitya siddha bodily servant of Krsna in His abode beyond this material world.

This is the original (that also means eternal in this context) identity of all marginal living entities, due to being eternally sheltered in the ‘timeless present’ atmosphere of Krsnaloka where there is no concept of past or future

This means that the eternal body that is our imperishable real form and identity, actually never falls down. This is because every living entity already exists in the fullness of their marginal identity due to the nature of the ‘eternal present’.

This means that all the bodily forms of every marginal living entity is there in Vaikuntha, and has always been there. This further means there was never a time when their perpetual svarupa body was not there in Krsnaloka.

So this is telling us what the eternal present means, every ‘svarupa’ body is eternal present there. ‘Everybody’ is already in Vaikuntha; we just have to realize this through bhakti, chanting Hare Krsna and sankirtan

Srila Prabhupada is also saying that the memory of being nitya-siddha can be covered over by the free will if one chooses to imagine their own existence without Krishna.

This is just like one who daydream in their present material body, they dream of being a King that seems very real while they are dreaming the dream. This imaginary world they have created, where they ‘think’ they are a rich King, will continues on for as long as the dream lasts or while their ‘current dreaming' material body has wondered off subconsciously into the world of imagination..

Srila Prabhupada was trying to tell us all those years ago; that all nitya siddha’s have the potential to be covered over, to dream they are not in Krsnaloka due to their free will and choice. In actual fact, without free will and choose, there can never be love and this is why there must be free will.

Consequently, it is not ones ‘svarupa’ body that leaves Krsnaloka; it is rather one self-important dreams and imagination that cloud the memory of being nitya-siddha and is therefore forgotten due to those dreams, like one forgets their material body while dreaming. That dream state is called nitya-baddha.

Also, keep in mind that it is due to the eternal reality of the timeless ‘present’ that makes it impossible for the nitya-siddha body to fall down. In other words, no–one in their ‘real’ (which means eternal svarupa body) can possible leave Vaikuntha anyway.

There is only one way of leaving and that is via ones imagination, thoughts, and dreams. One can only ‘consciously’ fall down, they can never ‘bodily’ fall down.

What is real (meaning one eternal nitya-siddha body) can never leave because there is no concept of future or past, there is only the eternal ‘now’.

Further more, what Srila Prabhupada means by when he says a nitya siddha can never fall down, is they are always nitya-siddha, just like the sun is always the sun even though the clouds might cover it, or our reflection in the mirror is not seen due to dust covering the mirror.

Nitya siddha means eternally liberated or established, so when a nitya siddha becomes covered, like the cloud covers the sun, he becomes eternally conditioned or nitya baddha (due to the cloud covering) however the nitya-siddha body, like the Sun, is eternally there behind the clouds, behind the baddha-jiva clouded mundane consciousness.

Therefore, it is due to the cloud covering we cannot see our real eternal nitya-siddha identity because our awareness is now restricted by that cloud covering, or the mundane nitya-baddha consciousness.

This cloud covering is now all we are aware of because it has blocked out the sun. We are not able to see the sun shinning due to the cloud covering the sun. The sun is still there, just as our nitya-siddha body is there in Goloka however; it is not realized because of the cloud cover or nitya-baddha consciousness.

We can’t be nitya-siddha at this time because we cannot see or be aware of that covered identity.

Therefore, our only present awareness of ourselves is solely nitya-baddha. This remains that way until we remove the dark cloud covering of material desires by replacing them with loving selfless, prideless, unconditional devotional Krishna Conscious desires to please the devotees and Krsna.

Then gradually the cloud cover or nitya-baddha dreaming condition is dissipated revealing the sun or our eternal nitya-siddha Krishna Conscious bodily identity eternally serving Krishna.

In fact, most devotees in Goloka never allow their awareness of being nitya-siddha to be covered by selfish desires that activate their nitya baddha sub-conscious dream state and throws them out of sync with the ‘eternal present’ and puts them in the mahat-tattva universe of divided time (past, present and future).

Fortunately, most marginal living entities do NOT allow themselves to be covered by non Krishna Conscious desires that manifest their baddha-jiva consciousness because of their desire and choice to always ever increase their love for Krsna.

This is why all marginal living entities have free will and the ability to choose, so they can serve Krsna with their own offerings, or jointly with other devotees, they create or think of themselves. This is why individuality and free will is paramount, without it, we are just pawns or robots without any ability to love, to give, to serve.

Such incredible statements are mind-boggling because how is it possible to calculate endless Spiritual creation without Bhakti (Ever expanding loving personal service with ones own individual creativity, to Krishna)? Even just a little service to a pure devotee can save one from the greatest fear and allow one to understand things that have always been inconceivable to others

So it is important to understand that ALL nitya-siddhas never leave Goloka or Vaikuntha. Some however, imagine and dream they leave, because the fact is, they can never as their nitya siddha body. Most never enter the world of imagination and therefore never experience the shackles of Maya as nitya baddha.

What about the story of George Harrison?

Formal diksa?

Srila Prabhupada - "George Harrison is already my disciple"

Although such a situation is very rare, there is ALWAYS exceptions to the traditional rules.

Lets face it, more people back in the 60s and 70s heard about Krsna because of George Harrison than anyone else thanks to Prabhupada of course

The word tatastha IS the marginal living entity, WE are all tatastha-jiva, meaning every jiva–tattva (jiva-tatastha) can be on ‘this side’ (nitya-siddha) or ‘that side’ (nitya-baddha) due to free will and choice.

This means the choice ALWAYS exists to serve Krishna as OUR real perpetual bodily identity in Krsnaloka, or chase our mistaken desires of grandeur IN THE maha-tattva (material creation).

The concept and perception of tatastha therefore, is certainly NOT a place, region, zone, sector, expanse, but rather describes the jiva-tattva’s nature and ability to choose between two regions.

Tatastha-s’akti also means the constituency nature of all marginal living entities that are collectively are eternally able to choose their own existence.

This clearly means tatastha describes the living entities capability of being, either in the ‘eternal present’ of Krsnaloka,that is without the mundane time expanse of past or future. Or in the world of imagination within the past, present and future of mahat-tattva (MATERIAL WORLD)

Always Chant Hare Krsna

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Therefore the genuin seeker of truth' date=' must go further until he has reached the [b']bodily source of the Brahmajyoti, which, according to the Isa Upanishad, is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, where all marginal living entities are eternal actively serving Krishna as their eternal bodily svarupa form.

Thus, the nitya-siddha bodily form ALL marginal living entities have, are without end or beginning (Within the real of the ‘eternal present’ where there is no concept of past or future).

This is the real position of all marginal living entities

Srila Prabhupada- "The supreme knowledge of Krsna is exhibited in three different energies -

1. Internal, shown in blue

2. Marginal, shown in purple

3. External, shown in brown

1.By virtue of His internal energy, He exists in Himself with His spiritual paraphernalia.

2.By means of His marginal energy (tatastha sakti), He exhibits Himself as the freethinkingliving entities.

3.And by means of His Lifeless external energy, which includes all bodily costumes, He exhibits Himself as material energy. (Also known as the mahat-tattva)

Srila Prabhupada -"It is the living entity’s constitutional position to be an eternal servant of Krsna because he is the marginal energy of Krsna and a manifestation simultaneously one with and different from the Lord, like a molecular particle of sunshine or fire. (Anology only) Krsna has three varieties of energy" Sri Caitanya Caritamrta Madhya 20.108-109

It is important to understand how we all originally came down from Vaikunthaby clearly understanding the following -

The three energies of Lord Krishna are -

Superior -Krishna and His unlimited expansions. Within the immensity of Krishna’s perpetual abodes is also where the marginal living entity (jiva-tattva) in their perpetual svarupa form reside serving Krishna or a Vishnu expansion.

It is important to understand that even though they are associating with the superior energies of Krishna, they are never one with the Krishna's superior energy like all of the Vishnu-tattva expansions are.

The realm of the superior energy also incorporates the individual independently thinking jiva-tattva as well because they are of the nature of Superior energy in as much as they are also eternal living entities, however, they always remain independently marginal living entities or jiva tatastha.

The word tatastha IS the marginal living entity, WE are all tatastha-jiva, meaning every jiva–tattva (jiva-tatastha) can be on ‘this side’ (nitya-siddha) or ‘that side’ (nitya-baddha) due to free will and choice.

This means the choice ALWAYS exists to serve Krishna as OUR real perpetual bodily identity in Krsnaloka, or chase our mistaken desires of grandeur IN THE maha-tattva (material creation).

The concept and perception of tatastha therefore, is certainly NOT a place, region, zone, sector, expanse, but rather describes the jiva-tattva’s nature and ability to choose between two regions.

Tatastha-s’akti also means the constituency nature of all marginal living entities that are collectively are eternally able to choose their own existence.

This clearly means tatastha describes the living entities capability of being, either in the ‘eternal present’ of Krsnaloka,that is without the mundane time expanse of past or future. Or in the world of imagination within the past, present and future of mahat-tattva (MATERIAL WORLD)

Marginal - The living entities or jiva-tatastha's (of whom their full potential is nitya-siddha in Goloka) are perpetually independent and eternally have free will.

This means they have the choice to be with Krishna as who they really are (nitya-siddha) or manifest their own imaginary world as nitya-baddha in the mahat-tattva. Having choice (jiva-tatastha) is what it really means to be in-between the Superior andinferior potencies of Lord Krsna. One chooses either Krishna's perpetual devotional creation OR

Maha-Vishnu's temporary DREAM creation.

Inferior- The mahat-tattva or lifeless material energies that include the ethereal and biological vessels or costume bodies the baddha-jiva wears.

The conclusion is nothing can be understood without the association of Krsna's wonderful devotee.

When Prabhupada CLEARLY says 'you and me and EVERY other marginal living entity' are already there in the spiritual sky' date=' he clarifies that by saying 'relationships with Krsna’ in Krsbaloka, meaning our svarupa body is eternally there[b'], but our memory of who we are is presently covered by our own selfish plans and mistaken desires.

 

Srila Prabhupada – “Established means re-establish. It is already established. We have got different types of relationship. That is called svarupa-siddhi. Svarupa-siddhi. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

 

Srila Prabhupada: "You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there…So actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget Krishna by the cloud of illusion that is material. Try to understand”. In a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971

 

This means there is NO evolution of consciousness in regards to our original perpetual bodily identity because that body already eternally exists, we simply have to regain the memory of who we really are.

We simply have to once again regain the 'awareness 'of who we really are.

 

We do not grow consciously out of a plainsheet of dormant consciousness and evolve to reach Krsnaloka, but rather, are always are in the process of regaining, recovering, restoring or re-establishing who we are originally.

 

Srila Prabhupada CLEARLY rejects the idea we spring to consciousness from a so-called dormant state inbetween the Krsnaloka and the mahat-tattva because originally, which means eternally in this context, "We are all originally Krsna Conscious devotionally active living entities in Radha and Krsna's perpetual pastimes in Krsnaloka".

 

Frankly, I am not interested in devotees who teach that nonsense, simply because of their impersonally tinged view that we do not ORIGINALLY come down from the pastimes of Radha and Krsna in KRSNALOKA.

 

Hare Krsna

Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura’s book answers very nicely your comment -

“I know at present you will not be able to digest these subtleties so quickly. As the spiritual influence will increase in your heart, so the spiritual understanding will easily increase, distinguishing it from the material conception.

You body is inert and so are all the bodily activities, but you are not; you are an atomic conscious being.

The more you are able to understand yourself, the more you will experience yourself as superior to the material world.

Therefore, even if I explain it and you listen, you will not able to grasp it.

The more you awaken your spiritual consciousness by taking shelter of the holy name, the more you will experience the spiritual world.” (Bhaktivinoda Thakura. Jaiva Dharma, chapter 15.)

In the Caitanya-caritamrita (Adi.1.92): “The foremost process of cheating is to desire to achieve liberation by merging in the Supreme, for this causes the permanent disappearance of loving service to Krishna.”

Therefore, those who have reached mature spiritual realization look upon merging into the Brahman effulgence, or seeing it as the origin of our existence, as a great mistake.

From this verse it is clear that without going beyond the Brahman effulgence (Impersonal Brahmajyoti), one cannot see the real perpetual bodily form of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, or their own perpetual ‘svarupa’ active bodily identity.

If one chooses to reache the stage of realizing the Brahman devoid of Krsnaloka or the mahat-tattva (IMPERSONAL BRAHMAJYOTI) and becomes convinced that he has attained the ultimate, then he does not have complete understanding or full realization of his or hers full constitutional svarupa bodily origins, which is the full potential and ultimate expression of ALL marginal living entities.

Therefore the genuin seeker of truth, must go further until he has reached the bodily source of the Brahmajyoti, which, according to the Isa Upanishad, is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, where all marginal living entities are eternal actively serving Krishna as their eternal bodily svarupa form.

Thus, the nitya-siddha bodily form ALL marginal living entities have, are without end or beginning (Within the real of the ‘eternal present’ where there is no concept of past or future).

This is the real position of all marginal living entities

It is clear to me that you are actually mixing the fall from Goloka or Vaikuntha theory with the idea that we have actually forgotten Krsna.

From the very beginning of this discussion, nearly a year and a half ago, as well as in Vrndavana over ten years before that, I have clearly said that we have fallen from Krsnaloka due to the CHOICE to do our own thing, and simultaneously forget Krishna and our own 'svarupa' body in the process.

First, there is choice, then that choice puts us 'in' Maya and we completely forget who we really are (An eternal nitya-siddha devotee of Krsna).

There is no mixing of anything and never has been. It is straight forward understanding, we are all originally from Krsnaloka and came to the material world in our false ego mundane dream state (baddha-jiva) some millions of years ago.

Makes sense. A place of no return. Once inside no one leaves, or wants to leave for that matter. How could maya entice us there in Krsnaloka?

We made our 'bad' choice somewhere else, in the 'tatastha' region of the Lord, wherein we chose not to accept the 'free' entry into eternal submission in Krsnaloka, but rather we chose to enter in the material world instead.

Srila Prabhupada -"The souls are endowed with minute independence as part of their nature. And this minute independence may be utilised rightly or wrongly at any time, so there is always the chance of falling down by misuse of one's independence." Letter to Jagadish, 4.25.70.

The fact is, our original relationship with Krishna is never lost, although temporarily forgotten due to free will and choice. It is not a question of Maya dragging us out of Krsnaloka, it does not work like that, it is simply the choice of the living entity to remain with Krsna or enter the stool house material world.

Maya does not exist in Krsnaloka but choice does, there is always free will and choice.

As soon as we first chose to leave Krishna and also forget the svarupa body we serve Krishna as, our memory of ‘our original position’ is taken from us by the prakshepatmika-s’akti of Maya Devi, the wife of Maha-Vishnu who creates and manages the mahat-tattva material creation. We are thus covered over by her avaranatmika-s’akti of forgetfulness (after that choice is made to leave Krsna's Lila's) and no longer recall that we are originally nitya-siddha.

As such, our original relationship with the Lord is forgotten simply based on choice rather than Maya’s influence. She’s s’akti comes AFTER we made the choice to leave Krsna’s pastimes.

In Brhad Bhagavatamrta by Sanatana Gosvami, it is written that once, as Krishna and the cows were returning from the Vrndavana forest at the end of the day, a boy had just attained spiritual liberation and entered Vrndavana as a cowherd boy [sakhya rasa]. Seeing His long lost servant, Krishna embraced him and both of them fainted in ecstasy.

All of Krishna's other cowherd friends were astounded, thinking,

"What is this? Krishna has lost His senses by embracing this newcomer! How is it possible?"

Then, as all of the cowherd boys looked on astonished, Balarama came to Krishna's relief and somehow managed to rouse Him.

Then Krishna addressed His friend with great affection:

"Why did you stay away?

Why have you been living away from home for so long?

How was it possible for you?

How could you bear My separation?

You left Me, and you have been passing lives after lives without Me? Still, I know what trouble you took to return to Me. You searched for Me everywhere, and went to beg from house to house, and you were chastised by many, ridiculed by many, and you shed tears for Me. I know all these things. I was with you. And now, after great trouble, you have again come back to Me."

Srila Prabhupada – “Established means re-establish. It is already established. We have got different types of relationship. That is called svarupa-siddhi. Svarupa-siddhi. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

Actually there is NO evolution of consciousness in regards to our original perpetual bodily identity and position because that svarupa body already perpetually exists ETERNALLY; we simply have to regain or recover the memory of who we really are.

We simply have to once again regain, recover, and re-establish the 'awareness 'of who we really are, that has always been there in Krsnaloka.

Prabhupada explained the original nature and position of the jiva soul that is understood by many devotees

Srila Prabhupada explains it very well for those who scrutinisingly study his teachings. He explains it very simply and compares our fallen state to our ‘dream’ consciousnesses while asleep in our material present body.

For those who delve deeply into the ‘origin of the jiva soul, Prabhupada has always given the clearest understanding.

Srila Prabhupada -"Originally pure Krishna consciousness exists, but because of misuse of marginal independence there is a chance of forgetting Krishna. From the state of pure consciousness, the false ego is born because of misuse of independence. We cannot argue about why false ego arises from pure consciousness. Factually, there is always the chance that this will happen, and therefore one has to be very careful." SB 3.26.23-24 pp.

Some get angry when they hear we ALWAYS have the free will to leave Krsnaloka and say –

“Herein lies the problem. By the above logic, the same fall can repeat again. You take all this pain being a Hare Krishna to get to Krishna, but per Prabhupada, it is always possible that you can fall again as you apparently have the independence to make that choice.

And people who have been quoting this "fall from Goloka" avoid the direct quote from Krishna about his "abode of no return".

Yes, that is right, but this can be easily understood

Here is a very, very crude example of free will and choice that all marginal living entities (jiva-tattva) have.

Lets say that you are walking down the street and come across a hot dump of dog stool with worms crawling around in it, now on seeing the hot stool, you have a choice, due to free will, to eat it, or ignore it.

Now we know (lets hope so) that you will ignore it, it would not even enter your mind to eat it.

This is also the same for the living entity in Krsnaloka, the majority of living entities as there nitya siddha body, see the material world or mahat-tattva as a stool house.

Therefore just as you in your present body see that 'worm filled hot stool', and ‘choose’ to ignore it, the living entities in Vaikuntha and Krsnaloka also choose to use their free will to ignore the material world.

That ability to choose is the eternal nature of the marginal living entities or jiva-tattva’s and this is WHY we are all ‘marginal living beings’. We are independent thinking individuals who can carve out our own existence, or 'choose' to always serve Krsna. This means we ALWAYS have the choice to eat Krsna prasadam and stay in Krsnaloka, or dog stool (go to the material world.

However, just like there are a very small minority of humans who see the hot stool as scrumptious and eat it, worms and all, there are also a small minority of living entities who choose to ignore Krsna and their 'svarupa' body they serve Krsna as, and come to the material world as their false ego (baddha-jiva).

The majority however, NEVER leave Krsnaloka unless it is to engage in Krsna’s sporting pastimes.

Actually if one understands this crude analogy, then we can understand how even those who have become purified and are now great devotee, NOW always see themselves as the most fallen because they have realized the way they had chose to leave Krsnaloka in the first place long, long, long ago.

Such great devotee, like many today who were previously from meat eating families, have now understood, by the dent of their Krsna Consciousness, how they had foolishly chosen to ignore Krsna and come down to the stool house of the material world.

The question remains, if you see hot wormy dog stool in your present body, would you eat it?

The free will to choose is always there in Krsnaloka.

All glorious to Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu

Sri Isopanisad 13 Purport:

Srila Prabhupada – “The human form of life offers one a chance to get out of this entanglement simply by re-establishing the lost relationship between the living entity and the Supreme Lord”.

Cultures and groups have been saying that for centuries, from the Vedas we understand there is 427000 years left in Kali-yuga

Actually, to the contrary, I know Lord Caitanya’s movement, with all the different branches, are going to become strong and have an influence on the world never before seen in mundane recorded history

A Golden Age of Spirituality has already begun and as it grows; it will inundate the entire world with the chanting of the holy names

Srila Prabhupada -"Originally pure Krishna consciousness exists, but because of misuse of marginal independence there is a chance of forgetting Krishna. From the state of pure consciousness, the false ego is born because of misuse of independence. We cannot argue about why false ego arises from pure consciousness. Factually, there is always the chance that this will happen, and therefore one has to be very careful." SB 3.26.23-24 pp.

Quote=shvu And herein lies the problem. By the above logic, the same fall can repeat again. You take all this pain being a Hare Krishna to get to Krishna, but it is always possible that you can fall again as you apparently have the independence to make that choice.

Yes that is right.but can be easily understood

Here is a very, very crude example of free will and choice that all marginal living entities (jiva-tattva) have.

Lets say that you are walking down the street and come across a hot dump of dog stool with worms crawling around in it, now on seeing the hot stool, you have a choice, due to free will, to eat it, or ignore it.

Now we know (lets hope so) that you will ignore it, it would not even enter your mind to eat it.

This is also the same for the living entity in Krsnaloka, the majority of living entities as there nitya siddha body, see the material world or mahat-tattva as a stool house.

Therefore just as you in your present body see that 'worm filled hot stool', and ‘choose’ to ignore it, the living entities in Vaikuntha and Krsnaloka also choose to use their free will to ignore the material world.

That ability to choose is the eternal nature of the marginal living entities or jiva-tattva’s and this is WHY we are all ‘marginal living beings’ - we are indepenant thinking individuals who can carve out our own existence or 'choose' to always serve Krsna.

We ALWAYS have the choice to eat Krsna prasadam (stay in Krsnaloka) or dog stool (go to the material world)

However, just like there are a very small minority of humans who see the hot stool as scrumptious and eat it, worms and all, there are also a small minority of living entities who choose to ignore Krsna and their 'svarupa' body they serve Krsna as, and come to the material world as their false ego (baddha-jiva).

The majority however, NEVER leave Krsnaloka unless it is to engage in Krsna’s sporting pastimes.

Actually if one understands this crude analogy, then we can understand how even those who have become purified and are now great devotee, NOW always see themselves as the most fallen because they have realized the way they had chose to leave Krsnaloka in the first place long, long, long ago.

Such great devotee, like many today who were previously from meat eating families, have now understood, by the dent of their Krsna Consciousness, how they had foolishly chosen to ignore Krsna and come down to the stool house of the material world.

The question remains, if you see hot wormy dog stool in your present body, would you eat it?

The free will to choose is always there in Krsnaloka.

All glorious to Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu

Srila Prabhupada -"Originally pure Krishna consciousness exists, but because of misuse of marginal independence there is a chance of forgetting Krishna. From the state of pure consciousness, the false ego is born because of misuse of independence. We cannot argue about why false ego arises from pure consciousness. Factually, there is always the chance that this will happen, and therefore one has to be very careful." SB 3.26.23-24 pp.

Srila Prabhupada -"The living entities are not without spiritual senses. Every living being in his original, spiritual form has all the senses, which are now material, being covered by the body and mind. Activities of the material senses are perverted reflections of spiritual pastimes." Sri Ishopanishad, Verse 11

Srila Prabhupada in his lectures always says that originally we were all Krsna-conscious living entities and on the Hare Krishna album He addresses a large audience with the words: "We are all originally Krishna conscious entities . . ."

Srila Prabhupada -"The souls are endowed with minute independence as part of their nature. And this minute independence may be utilised rightly or wrongly at any time, so there is always the chance of falling down by misuse of one's independence." Letter to Jagadish, 4.25.70

Urdhvaga das – “Our original relationship with Krishna is never lost, although temporarily forgotten. It was ripped away from us by the prakshepatmika-shakti of Maya, and we were then covered over by her avaranatmika-shakti of forgetfulness.

As such, our original relationship with the Lord is forgotten, and this has tragic consequences for the jiva. We futilely try to re-establish that personal relationship with material liaisons, and this is ultimately only productive of misery.

This tragedy is only very rarely transcended by artificially adopting mayavada and self-imposing the belief that we have never had any personal relationship with Krishna".