AncientMariner

I don't blame you for moving to Costa Rica, the country that you fought for in Vietnam has turned into a real piece of work. I guess the whole thing was basically an illusion all along, everything we were taught from grade school was a lie.

Remember, Jesus would rather constantly shame gays than let orphans have a family. - Steven Colbert Who is Steven Colbert? Another celebrity puke who thinks it is fashionable to bash on Jesus? I guess he is probably making fun of Christianity and if so then I would consider that fair game but leave Jesus out of this.

In Vedic culture I was under the understanding that marriage is primarily for procreation so it seems logical that gay marriage inherently doesn't fit in that model due simply to the anatomy involved.

Good point, I read in one of Prabhupada's books where he said it is degrading to a priest to marry homosexuals and he was pointing out how fallen some of the Christian priests are for doing that and pointing out it is a symptom of the Kali-yuga. I know if I was a priest I would say I am sorry but I am walking away from this one, I wish you both love and happiness but I do not wish to degrade myself in such a manner.

In this politically correct environment I just tell gay people I respect their right to choose who they love but this thought always pops into my head and it says "No matter what rationalization these people come up with from an anatomical perspective there is something inherently ridiculous about homosexuality."

#4: 2008 The Government votes and gives Trillions of dollars in bailouts to the banks and corporations that helped the off-shore bankers create the crisis in the first place, against the people's will. Congress was threatened with martial law in a closed door session if they didn’t pass these bailouts. Rep. Brad Sherman bravely came forward in October, 2008 after this meeting and desperately tried to warn the public, but the bought and paid for News turned a deaf ear, of course, because they are in on the whole scam too. It is the purpose of the “news”: to distract and mislead the public to advance the global agenda. Luckily it made it on CSPAN and YouTube and has been viewed by millions. But Congress was held hostage and forced to commit another form of treason instead, and pass these bailouts against the people's will, rather than have martial law. These officials reported that their offices have never received so many phone calls, ever. They got thousands and thousands of calls and emails, and that 99.9% of those calls were citizens screaming against the bailouts. Yet they passed it anyway. When the Congress is threatened with military action by bankers if they don’t pass a bill, it is officially an open coup, and high treason, and nobody seems to care. These bailouts should now see the complete collapse of the Dollar very soon. These trillions, of course, come from the private Federal Reserve again, at INTEREST. This is astro-inflation on top of the un-payable, never-ending, perpetual debt, which can never be completely paid back because the money to pay the interest doesn’t exist, and they only way it can exist, is if it comes from the Federal Reserve again, out of thin air, at INTEREST, creating even more debt. Yeah, I know, it’s a tongue twister, but true. This cannot really happen on a Gold standard and is what should have been reinstated long, long, ago. It would benefit all countries’ reserves if a system could be worked out, but it now seems unlikely. As Henry Cabot Lodge Sr., in 1913 said: "The [Federal Reserve Act] as it stands seems to me to open the way to a vast inflation of the currency... I do not like to think that any law can be passed that will make it possible to submerge the gold standard in a flood of irredeemable paper currency." We now have a “flood of irredeemable paper currency” so a return to a gold standard seems out of reach now, just as he warned. Their decades of brainwashing, hypnosis, and distraction through the Education system, TV, Hollywood, MTV, Sports, the so-called News, all owned by the banker’s corporate buddies, ran mostly by the Pentagon and CIA, has finally succeeded, and America is openly no longer a Government for the people, by the people. Everyone is now wandering around, lost, dazed, and confused and has no idea as to what is really going on or what to do. Chaos is in full swing… And we are doing nothing. Conclusion: “Novus Ordo Seclorum”: New World Order Now we get to sit back and watch society collapse over the next several years so these bankers can later pose as our saviors and finally create their complete one world Commu-Fascist government (but they will call it Democracy, for your own good of course), a private, World Federal Reserve-type bank, or, as its officially called now, a "New World Order", ran by un-elected bankers; a de-facto global monarchy. As a co-organizer of the Federal Reserve, the Council on Foreign Relations, The World Bank, IMF, United Nations, and Bilderberg Group, Mr. David Rockefeller, himself, quotes: "We are on the verge of a global transformation. All we need is the right major crisis and the nations will accept the New World Order." We now have that major crisis and "New World Order" has become a common term now, out in the open, and in the Mainstream Media all the time today. The unconscious pre-programming of the masses of this term and its function has begun and is being sold to us as what will supposedly save us. "Some even believe we are part of a secret cabal working against the best interests of the United States, characterizing my family and me as 'internationalists' and of conspiring with others around the world to build a more integrated global political and economic structure--one world, if you will. If that's the charge, I stand guilty, and I am proud of it." He admits to wanting to undermine America's sovereignty and economy, which we know now, by this generated crisis, that has been accomplished...this is admitted treason, and he is proud of it. "We are grateful to The Washington Post, The New York Times, Time Magazine and other great publications whose directors have attended our meetings and respected their promises of discretion for almost forty years. It would have been impossible for us to develop our plan for the world if we had been subject to the bright lights of publicity during those years. But, the world is now much more sophisticated and prepared to march towards a world government. The supranational sovereignty of an intellectual elite and world bankers is surely preferable to the national auto-determination practiced in past centuries." He admits the "The supranational sovereignty of an intellectual elite and world bankers" wishes to rule the world, un-elected, and they are doing it in secret, and he actually thanks publications for keeping it in secret. So, it really is a "secret cabal working against the best interests of the United States." Another co-founder of the Federal Reserve, James Paul Warburg said: "We shall have World Government, whether or not we like it. The only question is whether World Government will be achieved by conquest or consent." And of course we can’t forget H.G. Wells: "Countless people will hate the New World Order and will die protesting against it" Here are many more quotes of truth on the FED that I submit as evidence: Senators & Congressmen Quotes: "Most Americans have no real understanding of the operation of the international money lenders. The accounts of the Federal Reserve System have never been audited. It operates outside the control of Congress and manipulates the credit of the United States" -- Sen. Barry Goldwater (Rep. AR) "This [Federal Reserve Act] establishes the most gigantic trust on earth. When the President [Wilson} signs this bill, the invisible government of the monetary power will be legalized....the worst legislative crime of the ages is perpetrated by this banking and currency bill." -- Charles A. Lindbergh, Sr., 1913 "From now on, depressions will be scientifically created." -- Congressman Charles A. Lindbergh Sr., 1913 "The financial system has been turned over to the Federal Reserve Board. That Board administers the finance system by authority of a purely profiteering group. The system is Private, conducted for the sole purpose of obtaining the greatest possible profits from the use of other people's money" -- Charles A. Lindbergh Sr., 1923 "The Federal Reserve bank buys government bonds without one penny..." -- Congressman Wright Patman, Congressional Record, Sept 30, 1941 "We have, in this country, one of the most corrupt institutions the world has ever known. I refer to the Federal Reserve Board. This evil institution has impoverished the people of the United States and has practically bankrupted our government. It has done this through the corrupt practices of the moneyed vultures who control it". -- Congressman Louis T. McFadden in 1932 (Rep. Pa) "The Federal Reserve banks are one of the most corrupt institutions the world has ever seen. There is not a man within the sound of my voice who does not know that this nation is run by the International bankers -- Congressman Louis T. McFadden (Rep. Pa) "Some people think the Federal Reserve Banks are the United States government's institutions. They are not government institutions. They are private credit monopolies which prey upon the people of the United States for the benefit of themselves and their foreign swindlers" -- Congressional Record 12595-12603 -- Louis T. McFadden, Chairman of the Committee on Banking and Currency (12 years) June 10, 1932 "I have never seen more Senators express discontent with their jobs....I think the major cause is that, deep down in our hearts, we have been accomplices in doing something terrible and unforgiveable to our wonderful country. Deep down in our heart, we know that we have given our children a legacy of bankruptcy. We have defrauded our country to get ourselves elected." -- John Danforth (R-Mo) "These 12 corporations together cover the whole country and monopolize and use for private gain every dollar of the public currency..." -- Mr. Crozier of Cincinnati, before Senate Banking and Currency Committee - 1913 "The [Federal Reserve Act] as it stands seems to me to open the way to a vast inflation of the currency... I do not like to think that any law can be passed that will make it possible to submerge the gold standard in a flood of irredeemable paper currency." -- Henry Cabot Lodge Sr., 1913 From the Federal Reserve’s Own Admissions: "When you or I write a check there must be sufficient funds in an account to cover the check, but when the Federal Reserve writes a check there is no bank deposit on which that check is drawn. When the Federal Reserve writes a check, it is creating money." -- Putting it simply, Boston Federal Reserve Bank "Neither paper currency nor deposits have value as commodities, intrinsically, a 'dollar' bill is just a piece of paper. Deposits are merely book entries." -- Modern Money Mechanics Workbook, Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago, 1975 "The Federal Reserve system pays the U.S. Treasury 020.60 per thousand notes --a little over 2 cents each-- without regard to the face value of the note. Federal Reserve Notes, incidently, are the only type of currency now produced for circulation. They are printed exclusively by the Treasury's Bureau of Engraving and Printing, and the $20.60 per thousand price reflects the Bureau's full cost of production. Federal Reserve Notes are printed in 01, 02, 05, 10, 20, 50, and 100 dollar denominations only; notes of 500, 1000, 5000, and 10,000 denominations were last printed in 1945." --Donald J. Winn, Assistant to the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System "We are completely dependent on the commercial banks. Someone has to borrow every dollar we have in circulation, cash or credit. If the banks create ample synthetic money we are prosperous; if not, we starve. We are absolutely without a permanent money system.... It is the most important subject intelligent persons can investigate and reflect upon. It is so important that our present civilization may collapse unless it becomes widely understood and the defects remedied very soon." --Robert H. Hamphill, Atlanta Federal Reserve Bank The creation of the dollar as the world currency and destruction of the dollar through inflation, the un-payable debt, the easy credit, the shipping of jobs overseas, the un-employment, the wars, all of it, is because of the creation of the private Federal Reserve, helped by their corporate buddies, and the removal of the gold standard. Since the Dollar is the world's reserve currency, the whole crisis goes global. If our money was still as good as gold NONE OF THIS CRISIS WOULD HAVE EVER HAPPENED. Always remember that this is all on purpose to get us to submit to their will, set up a GLOBAL Federal Reserve and de-facto Global Monarchy, and it has been planned and carried out for a long time, slow and steady, right under our noses. They have killed millions and millions of people all over the world, of all colors, creeds, and religions, in the name of freedom and fighting “terrorists”, all to advance this agenda. And it is now obvious and out in the open. The time for denial and in-fighting is over. It’s time to expose the real enemy. Let's remember what Henry Ford once said of the Federal Reserve: "It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning." The people are finally starting to understand our banking and monetary system now, and Revolution is long, LONG overdue. It’s time to do something. Postscript: “Order Out of Chaos”, or “Problem, Reaction, Solution” is the motto. Create the problem, get the reaction, and then offer the solution. Create the chaos, and then create the order. These are the people in control of most nations ENTIRE money supplies, and soon the ENTIRE world’s money supply! These are the people that fund and create both sides of war and crisis and kill us or put us in debt for it to advance their agenda: The supranational sovereignty of an intellectual elite and world bankers! The biggest group of the lot is called the Bilderberg Group, with hundreds, if not thousands of members, which include the elite members of the world’s military, diplomatic, intelligence, economic, corporate, scientific and political operations and infrastructures. Most of which are violating treaties of their home countries when they have their yearly meetings to set the world events for the next year, that they try to keep secret, under HEAVY armed guard. These are major breaches in National Security for MANY countries. Its treason, trading and collaborating with supposed enemies, and a whole host of other crimes, all of which are punishable by death. So if you’re not getting killed by it, you’re getting put in debt for it. It’s this simple. A no-win situation for us “peasants”, or “serfs.” And it’s time we quit going along with it. The New World Order is still the Old World Order of Royalty and Peasantry, Rulers and Slaves. And the whole world will pay taxes to this world order. Any way you slice it, it’s still GLOBAL SLAVERY. Everyone knows deep, deep, down that this is true and it gets clearer and clearer and more obvious every day. Some have tried to warn us, like John F Kennedy: Address before the Press (1961): · “The very word "secrecy" is repugnant in a free and open society; and we are as a people inherently and historically opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths and to secret proceedings. We decided long ago that the dangers of excessive and unwarranted concealment of pertinent facts far outweighed the dangers which are cited to justify it. Even today, there is little value in opposing the threat of a closed society by imitating its arbitrary restrictions. Even today, there is little value in insuring the survival of our nation if our traditions do not survive with it. And there is very grave danger that an announced need for increased security will be seized upon by those anxious to expand its meaning to the very limits of official censorship and concealment. That I do not intend to permit to the extent that it is in my control. And no official of my Administration, whether his rank is high or low, civilian or military, should interpret my words here tonight as an excuse to censor the news, to stifle dissent, to cover up our mistakes or to withhold from the press and the public the facts they deserve to know. · It requires a change in outlook, a change in tactics, a change in missions--by the government, by the people, by every businessman or labor leader, and by every newspaper. For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy that relies primarily on covert means for expanding its sphere of influence--on infiltration instead of invasion, on subversion instead of elections, on intimidation instead of free choice, on guerrillas by night instead of armies by day. It is a system which has conscripted vast human and material resources into the building of a tightly knit, highly efficient machine that combines military, diplomatic, intelligence, economic, scientific and political operations. · Its preparations are concealed, not published. Its mistakes are buried, not headlined. Its dissenters are silenced, not praised. No expenditure is questioned, no rumor is printed, no secret is revealed.” Do you really think these people I’ve quoted as “conspiracy nuts?” I don’t, and I would take them VERY seriously, because we are seeing the culmination of that “monolithic and ruthless conspiracy” to create a New World Order unfolding today, right before our eyes.

4 Steps to Global Meltdown to Create a New World Order By Jeff Craig February, 2009 #1: 1913 The creation of the PRIVATELY OWNED Federal Reserve and the "fractional reserve" banking system which allows banks to legally counterfeit 9 times the amount of money they hold in deposits. A system of exponential inflation and debt. A system designed to fail. The usurpation and silent coup of our Government has occurred. "This [Federal Reserve Act] establishes the most gigantic trust on earth. When the President [Wilson} signs this bill, the invisible government of the monetary power will be legalized....the worst legislative crime of the ages is perpetrated by this banking and currency bill." -- Charles A. Lindbergh, Sr., 1913 This is where "inflation" comes from. The “fractional reserve” system. The legal counterfeiting by banks through loans. When you get a loan, the bank doesn’t give you money from their deposit holdings, no, they make it up out of thin air and keep their money. This added imaginary money to the economy, lowers the value of the existing money with every loan they make, inflation. If you don’t pay back the counterfeit loan, they take your very real house, with guns, and still have the same amount of money in their deposits that they started with, before the loan, plus any payment money you previously made. And don’t forget about the imaginary “interest”. A bank makes a profit and gets your assets to resell again for even more profit if you default on that loan or credit card. And they do it at gunpoint. It’s the greatest scam of human history along with the Federal Income Tax, also enforced by gunpoint. A bank only loses money if people withdraw from or close their accounts with that bank, not if you default on a loan. This is not a theory, it is a fact, read on… Contrary to popular belief, the Federal Reserve is NOT regulated by the Government at all, but by mostly off-shore private, un-elected bankers. This private bank LOANS money to the Government, AT INTEREST, and all of it is imaginary. The National Security implications of this are astounding. Nearly every President since the Fed’s inception has been a puppet to these off-shore private bankers, with the notable exception of John F. Kennedy. And we all know what happened to him. As Mayer Amschel Rothschild said: “Give me control of a nation's money supply, and I care not who makes its laws” Kennedy was someone trying to start a process to re-take that control back from the FED. They obviously cared who he was and what laws he was about to pass. If you don't believe The Federal Reserve (FED) is a PRIVATELY OWNED, organization; check the ENCYCLOPEDIA BRITANNICA and the quotes I’ve listed in Conclusion. The owners of the 12 Central Federal Reserve Banks are: - Rothschild Bank of London - Rothschild Bank of Berlin - Lazard Brothers of Paris - Israel Moses Seif Banks of Italy - Warburg Bank of Amsterdam - Warburg Bank of Hamburg - Lehman Brothers of New York - Kuhn Loeb Bank of New York - Goldman, Sachs of New York - Chase Manhattan Bank of New York All-in-all there is about 300 VERY POWERFUL foreign individuals that own the FED through ownership of the listed banks and investment houses. The Great Depression was caused by the FED and their banker buddies on Wall Street, like JP Morgan. It was used to gain further control and buy up businesses and banks for pennies on the dollar, just like today, and to justify the confiscation of the public’s personal gold with Executive Order 6102 in 1933. The Great Gold Seizure. This order allowed the Government to legally steal your personal, private gold, at gunpoint, under the pretense of “helping to end the Depression”. It was, at the time, the greatest robbery of the general public of all time. And we did nothing. #2: 1971 The Removal of the Gold Standard. The Dollar became the world's "reserve currency" in the first place because it was the ONLY NON-FIAT currency on the planet that was backed by gold. It is how America became great, because our money was as good as gold. This standard was removed by the treasonous criminal Nixon in 1971 and was the major catalyst to our current economic crisis and truly made our monetary system completely imaginary, fiat, and controlled by the very few. History shows that all fiat currencies are unsustainable and always fail yet we allowed it to happen. Once the gold standard was removed, the fiat Dollar was destined and designed to fail. Because the Dollar is the "world's reserve" currency, the crisis goes global, as we see unfolding today. This action allowed the banks to invent as much money as they wanted, out of thin air, and is how things like the massively expensive Cold War and the War on Terror was created and financed, on both sides, and at interest, putting the citzens in massive debt. These same off-shore bankers who run the Federal Reserve, also run most other countries central banks too, and these bankers have funded both sides of every conflict for a very, very, long time. The same thing as the oil companies supplying oil to both sides and Wall Street investing money to both sides. They work together and play countries off each other while they reap profits and either kill, or put the populations in debt, and steal thier freedoms. This is how the military industrial complex, the medical industrial complex, and the corporate industrial complex, Wall Street, and Government itself has became the monstrosities they are today. They all work together, against us, the citizens. This was also the major catalyst to begin the off-shore outsourcing of jobs. Our money was no longer as good as gold and it was now more profitable for corporations to ship their business overseas to places like China. This was the beginning of the major devaluation of the dollar and the beginning of the job crisis. We saw the beginning of the rise of China after this time since they were now getting all of our good jobs. But they are still in grave danger too now because they hold so much of the “world’s reserve”, the dollar, which is now failing, completely controlled by these bankers. And we did nothing #3: 2001 The Phony War on Terror. 911 was the catalyst to change America's foreign and domestic policy to pre-emptive war, even nuclear, and began the even more massive increase of Government and Government spending on defense, which in turn is causing massive inflation and massive debt for the citizens. War accelerates the destruction of currency and accelerates debt and is why the economic crisis has accelerated since the War on Terror started. Our freedoms here at home were removed with the Patriot Act, which is nearly IDENTICAL to Hitler's Enabling Act, which he instituted on his people to legally round up the political dissidents, lawyers, journalists, labor unions, professors, students, artists, and of course the Jews. This was immediately after he burned down his own German Parliament building, the Reichstag. He blamed it on Communist Terrorists, and adopted pre-emptive war. After 911 our Government adopted pre-emptive war, created a new, massive, "Homeland Security", just as Hitler did. Began invading countries, just as Hitler did. On January 27, 2009, new legislation was introduced to authorize and activate concentration camps here in America, just as Hitler did. This new bill is called H.R. 645. Look it up for yourself. America will now spend more money on defense every year than the rest of world does, COMBINED. A collapse is now guaranteed. This is Nazi Germany in slow motion. Complete evil genius's at pyscholgy, pysociology, and on how to control the masses. Germany surrendered WW2 because the bankers achieved their nuclear bomb in America and no longer needed the Nazi “Terrorists” as a front “enemy” to build the most destructive weapon ever. So, they finally destroyed their currency. The Germans then tried counterfeiting for short while, using rounded up prisoner artists and engravers, from the concentration camps, to draw and engrave for the counterfeiting, and ultimately that failed and the war ended, and the people cheered. The same economic destruction is happening to us, this time, in the name of fighting Muslim Terrorists instead of Communist Terrorists or Nazi Terrorists. The quest to kill "terrorists" has ALWAYS led to genocide. With over 3 million dead in the middle east, and soon to be growing, I call that a genocide, once again. They always need a generated “enemy” that’s a “danger to every man, woman, and child” so the people, who have been massively lied to, and in fear, always support their wars. And it works over and over and over again. "Follow the money all the way to the top", as they say. The Federal Reserve is the capstone of the Pyramid on the back of the Dollar, you cant really go any higher. The money for all of this, of course, comes from the off-shore bankers who run the central banks like the Federal Reserve and World Bank, who LOANS the money for this conquest to the Governments, AT INTEREST, backed by nothing but faith, and is completely designed to collapse. Our founders knew this well and fought the Revolutionary War against the tyrannical central bankers of the British Monarchy. Britain wanted control of our monetary system, tax system, and our freedoms, and our Founders said HELL NO and went to war!!! This is why the Constitution says: "Section. 10. No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation; grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts; pass any Bill of Attainder, ex post facto Law, or Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts, or grant any Title of Nobility." We thought we won that war in 1776, but we ultimately lost a major battle in 1913, and another battle 1971, when the off-shore central bankers finally gained full control of America's currency and taxes. We completely lost the Revolutionary War with the Patriot Act in 2001 which has finally stolen our freedoms. After 225 years, they finally succeeded in getting our money, taxes, Government, and freedoms and The New World Order is finally revealed. Their calculated, methodical, long-term goal of taking over and destroying America, and at the same time using it to create the global crisis, by destroying the “world’s reserve” currency, that allows them to set up World Government as the savior, is close at hand. And we did nothing.

Seen this same sort of degate go on for years on this forum. I got to admit I like this andy fella. A breath of fresh air although I have come to respect Beggar's steadfast devotion to Prabhupada's godbrothers. For me personally Prabhupada is still the main man simply because he left India all alone and basically took on the forces of maya in the west as a solitary old man. I know I wouldn't have the stones to do that especially knowing what I know about western society. If I was in Prabhupada's postion I would have said to myself "those people are screwed over there, I am staying put and gonna play it safe." I do not mean that as in anyway minimization of the accomplishments of Prabhupada's godbrothers but to me Prabhupada is the original gangsta so to speak, pioneer of Krishna Consciousness in the west. I can understand some of Kulapavana's criticisms of Prabhupada considering some of the horrors that Iskcon produced but given with what Prabhupada what he was up against I just cannot in good conscience blame Prabhupada for any of it but I also admit the only knowledge I have of Iskcon and its history is from reading and have no first hand experience. I often find the whole mission of Krishna Consciousness to be a bit of contradiction because it says it is an offense to preach Krishna Consciousness to the faithless but in trying to spread Krishna Consciousness in the West if you want to be official about following the rules the safest thing to do would be to not speak to people about Krishna Consciousness because virtually everyone is a faithless demon from a Krishna Consciousness perspective. Like a lot of Krishna Consciousness it seems like there are divine contradictions and it is like walking a tighrope and living on a razors edge so Prabhupada was doing the best he could in my estimation. Ol Prabhupada did alright.

I can understand what you are saying Kulapavana implying that you lack humility and although I respect Kulapavana's knowledge of Vaisnavism I do find it kind of spiritually arrogant of him to make such an implication about you. How does he know and is an authority on what kind of service any one else offers. I have noticed this kind of seemingly heavy handed self rightous authoritarianism out of some of Kulapavana's posts in the past and I always find it puzzling coming from someone so knowledgable. It almost seemed like he was making implications that theist is lazy as well although in fairness he was responding to one of theists questions on that one so I can see offering advice on that one.

Thanks, I have always appreciated your posts on these forums. You are one of those Vaisnavas that command respect through your demeanor and your respect for others even if they come from a different viewpoint than yourself.

Oh I know you are not Beggar. Beggar and Shakti-fan are the same person. He used to post something as Beggar and then respond to his own posts under the name Shakti-fan. Hasn't happened in a long time until today but those posts got wiped out. Used to happen back in the cbrahma vs. beggar era of this forum that were preceded by the Guruvani vs. everyone era which was preceded by the Guruvani vs. Kulapavana era or something resembling that order and substance. Somewhere in the mix was the advaitians vs. vaisnavas era I think but I wasn't really paying much attention during that era so I could be wrong about that one.

That is a beautiful experience. Sometimes I get that feeling reading Srimad Bhagavatam. No matter what your material situation any fear and anxiety just melts away and it feels like there is not a worry in the world.

Well at least you are not talking to yourself and answering with another id. Just kidding. I thought this thread would degrade once it took a certain direction but it has turned out to be a pretty good discussion worth being a fly on the wall and listening to.

That is weird that you classify the conspiracy theory sites as Nazi as for me the propaganda coming from the corporate news media is truly surreal to watch and I can hardly even watch TV anymore without vomitting. The conspiracy sites I go to sometimes have articles that are over the top exagerated but they have far better information than I could get from Fox News or Cnn or any other of the corporate print media. Both Biden and Powell hinted that there might be something big happen but that is neither here nor there for me personally. The real devil is in the details of history.

<table style="table-layout: fixed;" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td style="overflow: hidden;" rowspan="2" valign="top" width="16%"> </td><td valign="top" width="85%" height="100%"><table border="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td valign="center"> </td><td valign="center"> </td><td style="font-size: smaller;" align="right" valign="bottom" height="20"></td></tr></tbody></table><hr class="hrcolor" size="1" width="100%">this piece is written from a mainstream leftist perspective but does make some very pertinent points It’s Not Going to Be OK By Chris Hedges http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article21889.htm February 02, 2009 "TruthDig" -- The daily bleeding of thousands of jobs will soon turn our economic crisis into a political crisis. The street protests, strikes and riots that have rattled France, Turkey, Greece, Ukraine, Russia, Latvia, Lithuania, Bulgaria and Iceland will descend on us. It is only a matter of time. And not much time. When things start to go sour, when Barack Obama is exposed as a mortal waving a sword at a tidal wave, the United States could plunge into a long period of precarious social instability. At no period in American history has our democracy been in such peril or has the possibility of totalitarianism been as real. Our way of life is over. Our profligate consumption is finished. Our children will never have the standard of living we had. And poverty and despair will sweep across the landscape like a plague. This is the bleak future. There is nothing President Obama can do to stop it. It has been decades in the making. It cannot be undone with a trillion or two trillion dollars in bailout money. Our empire is dying. Our economy has collapsed. How will we cope with our decline? Will we cling to the absurd dreams of a superpower and a glorious tomorrow or will we responsibly face our stark new limitations? Will we heed those who are sober and rational, those who speak of a new simplicity and humility, or will we follow the demagogues and charlatans who rise up out of the slime in moments of crisis to offer fantastic visions? Will we radically transform our system to one that protects the ordinary citizen and fosters the common good, that defies the corporate state, or will we employ the brutality and technology of our internal security and surveillance apparatus to crush all dissent? We won't have to wait long to find out. There are a few isolated individuals who saw it coming. The political philosophers Sheldon S. Wolin, John Ralston Saul and Andrew Bacevich, as well as writers such as Noam Chomsky, Chalmers Johnson, David Korten and Naomi Klein, along with activists such as Bill McKibben and Ralph Nader, rang the alarm bells. They were largely ignored or ridiculed. Our corporate media and corporate universities proved, when we needed them most, intellectually and morally useless. Wolin, who taught political philosophy at the University of California in Berkeley and at Princeton, in his book "Democracy Incorporated" uses the phrase inverted totalitarianism to describe our system of power. Inverted totalitarianism, unlike classical totalitarianism, does not revolve around a demagogue or charismatic leader. It finds its expression in the anonymity of the corporate state. It purports to cherish democracy, patriotism and the Constitution while cynically manipulating internal levers to subvert and thwart democratic institutions. Political candidates are elected in popular votes by citizens, but they must raise staggering amounts of corporate funds to compete. They are beholden to armies of corporate lobbyists in Washington or state capitals who write the legislation. A corporate media controls nearly everything we read, watch or hear and imposes a bland uniformity of opinion or diverts us with trivia and celebrity gossip. In classical totalitarian regimes, such as Nazi fascism or Soviet communism, economics was subordinate to politics. "Under inverted totalitarianism the reverse is true," Wolin writes. "Economics dominates politics-and with that domination comes different forms of ruthlessness." I reached Wolin, 86, by phone at his home about 25 miles north of San Francisco. He was a bombardier in the South Pacific during World War II and went to Harvard after the war to get his doctorate. Wolin has written classics such as "Politics and Vision" and "Tocqueville Between Two Worlds." His newest book is one of the most important and prescient critiques to date of the American political system. He is also the author of a series of remarkable essays on Augustine of Hippo, Richard Hooker, David Hume, Martin Luther, John Calvin, Max Weber, Friedrich Nietzsche, Karl Marx and John Dewey. His voice, however, has faded from public awareness because, as he told me, "it is harder and harder for people like me to get a public hearing." He said that publications, such as The New York Review of Books, which often published his work a couple of decades ago, lost interest in his critiques of American capitalism, his warnings about the subversion of democratic institutions and the emergence of the corporate state. He does not hold out much hope for Obama. "The basic systems are going to stay in place; they are too powerful to be challenged," Wolin told me when I asked him about the new Obama administration. "This is shown by the financial bailout. It does not bother with the structure at all. I don't think Obama can take on the kind of military establishment we have developed. This is not to say that I do not admire him. He is probably the most intelligent president we have had in decades. I think he is well meaning, but he inherits a system of constraints that make it very difficult to take on these major power configurations. I do not think he has the appetite for it in any ideological sense. The corporate structure is not going to be challenged. There has not been a word from him that would suggest an attempt to rethink the American imperium." Wolin argues that a failure to dismantle our vast and overextended imperial projects, coupled with the economic collapse, is likely to result in inverted totalitarianism. He said that without "radical and drastic remedies" the response to mounting discontent and social unrest will probably lead to greater state control and repression. There will be, he warned, a huge "expansion of government power." "Our political culture has remained unhelpful in fostering a democratic consciousness," he said. "The political system and its operatives will not be constrained by popular discontent or uprisings." Wolin writes that in inverted totalitarianism consumer goods and a comfortable standard of living, along with a vast entertainment industry that provides spectacles and diversions, keep the citizenry politically passive. I asked if the economic collapse and the steady decline in our standard of living might not, in fact, trigger classical totalitarianism. Could widespread frustration and poverty lead the working and middle classes to place their faith in demagogues, especially those from the Christian right? "I think that's perfectly possible," he answered. "That was the experience of the 1930s. There wasn't just FDR. There was Huey Long and Father Coughlin. There were even more extreme movements including the Klan. The extent to which those forces can be fed by the downturn and bleakness is a very real danger. It could become classical totalitarianism." He said the widespread political passivity is dangerous. It is often exploited by demagogues who pose as saviors and offer dreams of glory and salvation. He warned that "the apoliticalness, even anti-politicalness, will be very powerful elements in taking us towards a radically dictatorial direction. It testifies to how thin the commitment to democracy is in the present circumstances. Democracy is not ascendant. It is not dominant. It is beleaguered. The extent to which young people have been drawn away from public concerns and given this extraordinary range of diversions makes it very likely they could then rally to a demagogue." Wolin lamented that the corporate state has successfully blocked any real debate about alternative forms of power. Corporations determine who gets heard and who does not, he said. And those who critique corporate power are given no place in the national dialogue. "In the 1930s there were all kinds of alternative understandings, from socialism to more extensive governmental involvement," he said. "There was a range of different approaches. But what I am struck by now is the narrow range within which palliatives are being modeled. We are supposed to work with the financial system. So the people who helped create this system are put in charge of the solution. There has to be some major effort to think outside the box." "The puzzle to me is the lack of social unrest," Wolin said when I asked why we have not yet seen rioting or protests. He said he worried that popular protests will be dismissed and ignored by the corporate media. This, he said, is what happened when tens of thousands protested the war in Iraq. This will permit the state to ruthlessly suppress local protests, as happened during the Democratic and Republic conventions. Anti-war protests in the 1960s gained momentum from their ability to spread across the country, he noted. This, he said, may not happen this time. "The ways they can isolate protests and prevent it from [becoming] a contagion are formidable," he said. "My greatest fear is that the Obama administration will achieve relatively little in terms of structural change," he added. "They may at best keep the system going. But there is a growing pessimism. Every day we hear how much longer the recession will continue. They are already talking about beyond next year. The economic difficulties are more profound than we had guessed and because of globalization more difficult to deal with. I wish the political establishment, the parties and leadership, would become more aware of the depths of the problem. They can't keep throwing money at this. They have to begin structural changes that involve a very different approach from a market economy. I don't think this will happen." "I keep asking why and how and when this country became so conservative," he went on. "This country once prided itself on its experimentation and flexibility. It has become rigid. It is probably the most conservative of all the advanced countries." The American left, he said, has crumbled. It sold out to a bankrupt Democratic Party, abandoned the working class and has no ability to organize. Unions are a spent force. The universities are mills for corporate employees. The press churns out info-entertainment or fatuous pundits. The left, he said, no longer has the capacity to be a counterweight to the corporate state. He said that if an extreme right gains momentum there will probably be very little organized resistance. "The left is amorphous," he said. "I despair over the left. Left parties may be small in number in Europe but they are a coherent organization that keeps going. Here, except for Nader's efforts, we don't have that. We have a few voices here, a magazine there, and that's about it. It goes nowhere." </td></tr></tbody></table>

My view after reading The Creature From Jekyll Island is that basically international bankers have helped create all these intelligence agencies and combined with the military industrial complex they have been running the government since WWII at least and really even before WWII and WW1. Almost all of the politicians are really just bought off puppets carrying out this agenda. Some may know the agenda and some may just be compartmentalized and think they are serving good. The Creature from Jekyll Island spells out how they got control of the money and with control of that comes control of pretty much everything else.

Been reading stuff on conspiracy sights saying that is the ultimate plan. I guess if we live long enough we will find out.

Yes, I have always found the philosphy of Jesus to be beautiful and enlightening unfortunately there are a lot of well meaning Christians that go off on all sorts of strange tangents and in so doing they have ignorant misunderstandings about "Hinduism". Can't really blame these unfortunate Christians as they are conditioned to think this way but it is sad to see when it happens because they are missing out on a lot of really good stuff.

I wish you good luck and smooth sailing. This is a time when I think people might be more interested in hearing the timeless message of Krsna Consciousness . I even have heard people talking about Krishna on the conspiracy websites I go to. I was reading a forum on prisonplanet the other day about the illuminati and new age philosophy/religion and it was kind of cool when one Christian oriented person said that it is a new age philosphy to think God is in the heart and this lady said that Bhagavad Gita, which was before Jesus, explained how God is the supersoul in the heart. She went on to say the dangerous new age philosophy is those people saying that we are God or we can become God. Was brilliant stuff and a beautiful thing to see this enlightened lady defend Krishna from the ignorance of some of our Christian brothers and sisters and at the same time expose the real dangerous philosophy.

No matter what happens anyone who comes across Krsna Consciousness is fortunate. The more time goes by the more I am seeing this. As one of the great acarayas said there is no loss in this endeavor. I have had times when I wish I could just forget all this stuff because especially with the world population being so completely immersed in maya it seems like an exercise in futility and it feels like you are fighting the whole world but ultimately I keep going back and reading Srimad Bhagavatam over and over because there is just no getting around it that Krsna is interesting and compelling.

<TABLE style="TABLE-LAYOUT: fixed" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=5 width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD style="OVERFLOW: hidden" vAlign=top width="16%" rowSpan=2></TD><TD vAlign=top width="85%" height="100%"><TABLE width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=center></TD><TD vAlign=center>Obama and his bad_ss Bilderberg Crew « on: Today at 09:57:55 PM » </TD><TD style="FONT-SIZE: smaller" vAlign=bottom align=right height=20></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><HR class=hrcolor width="100%" SIZE=1>There are probably others missing from the list... http://www.americanfreepress.net/html/obama_bilderbergers_160.html Change? Obama Inner Circle Filled With Bilderbergers By Victor Thorn FOR TWO YEARS, Americans have heard an unrelenting mantra of change emanating from the campaign trail. But now that President-elect Barack Obama has begun forming his cabinet, we’re seeing a cadre of more deeply entrenched insiders than any administration that has preceded it. In regard to key foreign policy advisors, all three of Obama’s selections either initially supported the Iraq war, or still do. On the economic front, each appointee maintains a close relationship with the Jewish triad of Ben Bernanke, Robert Rubin and Alan Greenspan—as well as bailout engineer Henry Paulson. Barack Obama himself is a Council on Foreign Relations member, has strong ties to Zbigniew Brzezinski, and participated in a clandestine meeting with Hillary Clinton at Bilderberg member Diane Feinstein’s house at the time when 2008 Bilderberg members were congregating only a few miles away. Below is an overview of Obama’s top 14 selections to date. When considering their collective histories, a trend becomes clear, proving that the more things change under Obama, the more they stay the same. 1. TIMOTHY GEITHNER – TREASURY SECRETARY Bilderberg, Council on Foreign Relations, Trilateral Commission, president and CEO of Federal Reserve Bank of New York, director of policy development for IMF, member Group of Thirty (G30), employed at Kissinger & Associates, architect of the recent 2008 financial bailouts, mentored by Lawrence Summers and Robert Rubin. 2. PAUL VOLCKER – ECONOMIC RECOVERY ADVISORY BOARD Bilderberg, Council on Foreign Relations, North American chairman of Trilateral Commission, Federal Reserve chairman during Carter and Reagan administrations, president of Federal Reserve Bank of New York, G30 member, chairman Rothschild Wolfensohn Company, key figure in the collapse of the gold standard during the Nixon administration, longtime associate of the Rockefeller family. 3. RAHM EMANUEL – CHIEF OF STAFF Member of Israeli Defense Force, staunch Zionist, congressman, Board of Directors for Freddie Mac, member of Bill Clinton’s finance campaign committee, made $16.2 million during 2.5 years as an investment banker for Wasserstein Perella. His father was a member of the Israeli Irgun terrorist group. 4. LAWRENCE SUMMERS – NATIONAL ECONOMIC COUNCIL Bilderberg, Council on Foreign Relations, Trilateral Commission, treasury secretary during Clinton administration, chief economist at World Bank, former president of Harvard University, Brookings Institute board member, huge proponent of globalization while working for the IMF, prot駩 of David Rockefeller, mentored by Robert Rubin. 5. DAVID AXELROD – SENIOR ADVISOR Political consultant whose past clients include Sens. Hillary Clinton, John Edwards and Christopher Dodd; main Obama fixer in the William Ayers and Reverend Wright scandals. 6. HILLARY CLINTON – SECRETARY OF STATE Bilderberg, Council on Foreign Relations, Trilateral Commission, clandestine CIA asset used to infiltrate the anti-war movement at Yale University and the Watergate hearings, senior partner at the Rose Law Firm, key figure in the Mena drug trafficking affair, architect of the Waco disaster, implicated in the murder/ cover-up of Vince Foster, and many other deaths. 7. JOSEPH BIDEN – VICE PRESIDENT Bilderberg, Council on Foreign Relations, U.S. Senator since 1972, member of the Senate Judiciary Committee, current chairman of the U.S. Senate Committee on Foreign Relations, strong Zionist sympathizer who recently told Rabbi Mark S. Golub of Shalom TV, “I am a Zionist. You don’t have to be a Jew to be a Zionist.” 8. BILL RICHARDSON – COMMERCE SECRETARY Bilderberg, Council on Foreign Relations, former U.S. congressman, chairman of the Democratic National Convention in 2004, employee of Kissinger Associates, UN ambassador, governor of New Mexico, energy secretary, major player in the Monica Lewinsky cover-up with Bilderberg luminary Vernon Jordan. 9. ROBERT GATES – DEFENSE SECRETARY Bilderberg, Council on Foreign Relations, former CIA Director, defense secretary under President Bush, co-chaired CFR task force with Zbigniew Brzezinski, knee-deep in the Iran-Contra scandal, named in a 1999 class action lawsuit pertaining to the Mena drug trafficking affair. 10. TOM DASCHLE – HEALTH SECRETARY Bilderberg, Council on Foreign Relations, former Senate majority leader, Citibank lackey, mentored by Robert Rubin. 11. ERIC HOLDER – ATTORNEY GENERAL Key person in the pardon of racketeer Marc Rich, deputy attorney general under Janet Reno, facilitated the pardon of 16 Puerto Rican FALN terrorists under Bill Clinton. 12. JANET NAPOLITANO – HOMELAND SECURITY DIRECTOR Council on Foreign Relations, Arizona governor, attorney for Anita Hill during the Clarence Thomas hearings, U.S. attorney during the Clinton administration, instrumental in the OKC cover-up, where she declared, “We’ll pursue every bit of evidence and every lead,” described as another Janet Reno, soft on illegal immigration (i.e. pro-amnesty and drivers licenses to illegals). 13. GEN. JAMES L. JONES – NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISOR Bilderberg, Trilateral Commission, European supreme allied commander, special envoy for Middle-East Security during Bush administration, board of directors for Chevron and Boeing, NATO commander, member of Brent Scowcroft’s Institute for International Affairs along with Zbigniew Brzezinski, Bobby Ray Inman, Bilderberg luminary Henry Kissinger and former CIA Director John Deutch. 14. SUSAN RICE – U.N. AMBASSADOR Council on Foreign Relations, Rhodes scholar, campaign foreign policy advisor to presidential candidates John Kerry and Michael Dukakis, member of Bill Clinton’s National Security Council and assistant secretary of state for Africa, member of the Brookings Institute (funded by the Ford Foundation and the Rockefellers), and member of the Aspen Strategy Group (teeming with Bilderberg insiders such as Richard Armitage, Brent Scowcroft, and Madeleine Albright). Victor Thorn is a hard-hitting researcher, journalist and the author of many books on 9-11 and the New World Order. These include 9-11 Evil: The Israeli Role in 9-11 and Phantom Flight 93. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Lakota withdraw from treaties, declare independence from U.S. <!-- END BUZZ --> The Lakota Sioux Indians, whose ancestors include Sitting Bull, Red Cloud and Crazy Horse, have withdrawn from all treaties their forefathers signed with the U.S. government and have declared their independence. A delegation delivered the news to the State Department earlier this week. Portions of Nebraska, South Dakota, North Dakota, Montana and Wyoming comprise Lakota country, and the tribe says that if the federal government doesn't begin diplomatic discussions promptly, liens will be filed on property in the five-state region. Here's the news release. "We are no longer citizens of the United States of America and all those who live in the five-state area that encompasses our country are free to join us," said Russell Means, a longtime Indian rights activist. "This is according to the laws of the United States, specifically Article 6 of the Constitution," which states that treaties are the supreme law of the land. "It is also within the laws on treaties passed at the Vienna Convention and put into effect by the U.S. and the rest of the international community in 1980. We are legally within our rights to be free and independent," he added during a press conference yesterday in Washington. The new country would issue its own passports and driver licenses, and living there would be tax-free, provided residents renounce their U.S. citizenship, he said, according to a report from Agence France-Presse. The Lakota say the United States has never honored the pacts, signed with the Great Sioux Nation in 1851 and 1868 at Fort Laramie, Wyo. "We have 33 treaties with the United States that they have not lived by. They continue to take our land, our water, our children," said Phyllis Young, who helped organize the first international conference on indigenous rights in Geneva in 1977. Means said the "annexation" of native American land had turned the Lakota into "facsimiles of white people." In 1974, the Lakota drafted a declaration of continuing independence. Their cause got a boost in September, when the United Nations adopted a non-binding declaration on the rights of indigenous peoples. The Bush administration opposed the measure. (1855 portrait of Sitting Bull by David Frances Barry, Library of Congress)

Right on. Love it brother! I was listening to a very intelligent Indian Chief from the Lakota Sioux on Alex Jones Show the other day and he was saying how stupid the American people are for letting the International bankers pull their scams on them and now the American people are going to experience what it was like to be a Native American. It looks like karma is gonna be a bitch for us Americans. Running for the Hills doesn't sound like too bad of an idea especially as the power of the Federal government continues to expand unless people wake up from their stupor. Problem is nowadays even the hills are watched by satellite.

This thread is basically going to turn into one of the staple arguments in this time period of Vaisnava history where one group says you have to associate with so and so and if you do not you are going to burn eternally in Vaisnava hell and both groups are going to argue endlessly over who is and who isn't a Vaisnava and what exactly constitutes association. Anyone who doesn't agree with whichever side is going to be called bogus by the other side. Seen it all a million times.

That is sad to hear. I have been there before and it is brutal. If you can overcome this pain of lost love you can overcome anything because it is the hardest one ever. The chanting of the Hare Krishna mantra helps somewhat and reading Srimad Bhagavatam where it says setbacks are actually gifts from the Lord. That is the only way to approach it, pretty much only choice you have and if it is your destiny to be with her then the Lord will bring you back together. Like my Dad told me before sometimes the Lord's greatest gift is unanswered prayer.