AncientMariner

All I know is that I am glad all I have done with Krsna Consciousness is read the books and do my best to practically apply this knowledge to my life instead of having personal involvement in all these guru wars. I have read and tried my best to understand these same disputes from various factions that have been going on for years and it seems there is never any kind clear resolution when it is all said and done. I keep things simple and I figure if Prabhupada didn't want people reading the books he wouldn't have distributed them to the public.

I even get the rare priviledge of conveying some of this knowledge to people every now and then. Just today I posted on a conspiracy website about how at the end of the Kali-yuga the Kalki-avatar is going to incarnate and ride around on a white horse and chop the heads off of all the irreligous Kings and rulers in the world and restore religion to man. The responses were good and they thought that story is badass.

Now that I view humanity as a hive being directed by the supersoul I am more inclined to believe in the existance of Krishna than Jesus even though on the surface it really takes almost a leap of faith to believe either one considering that they both are engaged in supernatural occurances that you don't see on every street corner but at the same time I can't say with any certainty Jesus did or did not exist.

I am sure there are plenty of truth seekers that have died horrible deaths at the hands of the ruling class throughout the centuries so I don't see it as that incredibly of a far fetched story and in some ways the story of Jesus does have some resemblence to the kind of stories you can read in Srimad Bhagavatam.

I can respect Vaisnavas fighting some of the gross misconceptions in Christianity as it now exists but I don't see how a lot of these misconceptions are in the story of Jesus so much as they are added by all the different interpretations of how his life is portrayed in the Bible and the different sects that have emerged.

Just because you fellas read something in a book is not absolute proof to me and does not warrant the conviction some possess with absolute certainty that he didn't exist but everything is open for consideration especially when you consider how history and knowledge have appeared to be manipulated to keep the masses under control.

I've encountered these theories before that cause the youth to swoon in their desire to abandon conscience for revelry.

 

Some involve claims of old Egyptian stories that match and predate the gospel, that the Christ is an analogy for the Sun, etc.

 

Only direct religious experience can defeat these organized plots against the religious fabric of the West. Soon, India will be the next target. The depth of evil in this world is unimaginable.

The depth of evil is truly astounding. I have just recently woken up to the levels that the powers that be go to destroy and it almost just knocks me to the ground emotionally sometimes now. I have been reading all about the banking cartels and reading books about Stalin and the Nazis for months on end now. I never realized how desensitized I had become until digging into this stuff and I guess on some level it is good because I am regaining some of my humanity instead of being carried away by the corporate media induced tide of desensitization that has swept through America and forcibly injected into our culture. I think you are right they are going to try to turn India into neocon/neoliberal materialists warmongers if they can get the job done.

Nice to see you posting again theist. I have always enjoyed your insights and realizations.

How so AM? Would you elaborate a little please?

Well if I remember right Dhruva Maharaja went to the forrest as a young kid and it had something to do with his wicked stepmother. Dhruva underwent severe austerity and caught the attention of Narada Muni who came and instructed him in spiritual knowledge. At first Dhruva wanted a kingdom bigger than his grandfather and father but Narada Muni taught him that these things were ultimately folly and almost a hinderance to devotional service. The moral of the story was that even if you go to Krishna for something material you are still considered glorious and that eventually you will give up that notion and take to devotional service out of pure love rather than material motivation.

I think that was Dhruva Maharaja but if I got the wrong name I apologize.

I do not know the answer to this question myself and have pondered it more and more lately. As with all knowledge it is very tricky and it is hard to know who to trust in regards to history and its accuracy.

I like to think Jesus was real because I think it is a beautiful story how he stood against the tyranny of his day but just because I like to think it doesn't make it real. I am currently reading the book The Controversy of Zion and it has finally given me a frame of reference and context in which to examine the Old Testament and from this frame of reference I have to admit the God of the old testament doesn't seem to bear very much resemblence to Krishna but who knows for sure and who knows which versions of history are accurate and which versions are disinformation created by the powers that be to manipulate the masses.

For me I guess it comes down to the fact that the more I learn about history the more I realize how incredibly complicated and miserable the material world is. I honestly do not even know if Krishna is real but I like to think so and I have had a few experience where it seemed like some sort of divine force was looking out for me but it could be just a trick of the mind. I sincerely hope Krishna is real because I yearn to one day regain my lost innocence so to speak and live somewhere where anxiety is not so prominent.

I know one thing as I grow older and older I find fundamentalist Christians to be more and more hard for me to deal with because they lump everyone who believes in reincarnation or who doesn't interpret the Bible exactly as they do into Madame Blovotskys theosophy or new agism which is just plain obnoxious to deal with. I believe there is a chance that the powers that be will orchestrate a third world war or microchip humans and bring the population of the Earth down to 500 million or a billion but I don't think that means Jesus will come down in a cloud to me but I suppose ultimately anything is possible. If things ever did change in my view in this regard it would be because humans raised their level of consciousness not necessarily because they were saved by a supernatural being but then again even the Vedas seem to have supernatural incarnation so who the hell knows anything for sure.

Pranams...

 

How do we verify success in spiritual life?

 

When is a disciple a success?

When is a guru a success?

When is a spiritual movement a success?

When is your spiritual life a success?

When is a particular spiritual practice a success?

 

It seems easy to cover up just about any failure with complex philosophical excuses. But will a child like person buy such explanations?

 

Does Krsna seem closer to you today than He was 5 or 15 years ago? Are you making progress? Are you less attached to material concepts and posessions? Do you treat others like they were really spirit souls, parts and parcels of Krsna?

 

I would like to hear your reflections in this area.

Those are good questions. It seems so much of the Vedic literature and Vedic process is filled with seeming contradictions that nothing is absolutely clear but no matter how often I try to divert myself from the harsh realities of material life with maya the only thing that I really find hopeful and satisfying is the that that there is a supreme Lord of the universe and there is a chance that someday I will live with Him and be free from the endless competition and lack of universal brotherhood in the material world.

There is so much beauty in the Vedas and I always have this special feeling in my heart for Prabhupada for endeavoring to bring this knowledge to the West but it is frustrating in some sense having some familiarity with this knowledge especially living in a country where the predominant religous sentiment is either towards atheism or the Abrahamic religions which are filled with sectarian conflict that reaches even into the geopolitical level.

The story of Dhruva Maharaja addresses this question if I remember right.

Here is post from one of the conspiracy sights. The guy that posted has posted mountains of information in regards to the government, military and a lot of these corporations coordinating a basic takeover of America through a new internet.

In regards to Internet2:

As Alex has said, they always have more than one purpose for what they do.

A. This is a lockdown, and response to preserving their "Federal Reserve" from the people.

B. This is a lockdown to kill speech on the internet, and change over to internet 2.

Anything else, you guys want to add.

C. This is required to enforce the cashless society. What a coincidence with the timing of the financial implosion.

D. The protocol of I2, being IPv6 is the foundation upon which the architectures built by the NWO can have full interoperability across all sectors. It is what makes NLOS weapons possible (No Line Of Sight) - to which just having GPS coordinates (probably even more advanced than GPS also) they can launch weapons from any location. This will turn the US and the world into a continuous active battlespace of permanent warfare until the NWO decides otherwise.

E. Also I2 along with the architectures built upon utilizing IPv6 will be the foundation for the "new economy" for the NWO. The same military takeover C2 systems that were used to execute 911 are being fully integrated into shipping, exports, imports, transportation, manufacturing, etc. This serves as the means to have much higher efficiency by having systems remove humans from being needed to perform jobs to a far greater extent than that which now exists, and thus this also ties into the reason why they don't need us and want us dead. Nano-factories will literally replace all human labor making humans obsolete (of course except for the elite, who should apply their psychotic murderous pathology onto themselves.)

In short, hell on Earth. but then again when we read Daniel chapter 7 and Revelation, things become real very fast. The NWO is the final culmination of sin, the pinnacle of of what happens when human beings completely sell out to the Devil. Even the NWO are slaves, to him--who they think is their liberator against what they perceive as a "cruel God" to quote Bill Cooper (RIP).

Logged

Here is one of Prabhupdada's explanations of what is going on.

yuktaḥ paraḥ puruṣa eka ihāsya dhatte

sthity-ādaye hari-viriñci-hareti saḿjñāḥ

śreyāḿsi tatra khalu sattva-tanor nṛṇāḿ syuḥ

SYNONYMS

sattvam — goodness; rajaḥ — passion; tamaḥ — the darkness of ignorance; iti — thus; prakṛteḥ — of the material nature; guṇāḥ — qualities; taiḥ — by them; yuktaḥ — associated with; paraḥ — transcendental; puruṣaḥ — the personality; ekaḥ — one; iha asya — of this material world; dhatte — accepts; sthiti-ādaye — for the matter of creation, maintenance and destruction, etc.; hari — Viṣṇu, the Personality of Godhead; viriñci — Brahmā; hara — Lord Śiva; iti — thus; saḿjñāḥ — different features; śreyāḿsi — ultimate benefit; tatra — therein; khalu — of course; sattva — goodness; tanoḥ — form; nṛṇām — of the human being; syuḥ — derived.

TRANSLATION

The transcendental Personality of Godhead is indirectly associated with the three modes of material nature, namely passion, goodness and ignorance, and just for the material world's creation, maintenance and destruction He accepts the three qualitative forms of Brahmā, Viṣṇu and Śiva. Of these three, all human beings can derive ultimate benefit from Viṣṇu, the form of the quality of goodness.

PURPORT

That Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa, by His plenary parts, should be rendered devotional service, as explained above, is confirmed by this statement. Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa and all His plenary parts are viṣṇu-tattva, or the Lordship of Godhead. From Śrī Kṛṣṇa, the next manifestation is Baladeva. From Baladeva is Sańkarṣaṇa, from Sańkarṣaṇa is Nārāyaṇa, from Nārāyaṇa there is the second Sańkarṣaṇa, and from this Sańkarṣaṇa the Viṣṇu puruṣa-avatāras. The Viṣṇu or the Deity of the quality of goodness in the material world is the puruṣa-avatāra known as Kṣīrodakaśāyī Viṣṇu or Paramātmā. Brahmā is the deity of rajas (passion), and Śiva of ignorance. They are the three departmental heads of the three qualities of this material world. Creation is made possible by the goodness of Viṣṇu, and when it requires to be destroyed, Lord Śiva does it by the tāṇḍavanṛtya. The materialists and the foolish human beings worship Brahmā and Śiva respectively. But the pure transcendentalists worship the form of goodness, Viṣṇu, in His various forms. Viṣṇu is manifested by His millions and billions of integrated forms and separated forms. The integrated forms are called Godhead, and the separated forms are called the living entities or the jīvas. Both the jīvas and Godhead have their original spiritual forms. Jīvas are sometimes subjected to the control of material energy, but the Viṣṇu forms are always controllers of this energy. When Viṣṇu, the Personality of Godhead, appears in the material world, He comes to deliver the conditioned living beings who are under the material energy. Such living beings appear in the material world with intentions of being lords, and thus they become entrapped by the three modes of nature. As such, the living entities have to change their material coverings for undergoing different terms of imprisonment. The prison house of the material world is created by Brahmā under instruction of the Personality of Godhead, and at the conclusion of a kalpa the whole thing is destroyed by Śiva. But as far as maintenance of the prison house is concerned, it is done by Viṣṇu, as much as the state prison house is maintained by the state. Anyone, therefore, who wishes to get out of this prison house of material existence, which is full of miseries like repetition of birth, death, disease and old age, must please Lord Viṣṇu for such liberation. Lord Viṣṇu is worshiped by devotional service only, and if anyone has to continue prison life in the material world, he may ask for relative facilities for temporary relief from the different demigods like Śiva, Brahmā, Indra and Varuṇa. No demigod, however, can release the imprisoned living being from the conditioned life of material existence. This can be done only by Viṣṇu. Therefore, the ultimate benefit may be derived from Viṣṇu, the Personality of Godhead.

I read in one of Srila Prabhupada's books that Siva has 84% of the qualities of the Godhead and the max a jiva can have is 78% of the qualities of the Godhead. Siva is a God but some of the avaturas have like 93%. The jiva can never be a God, a jiva can only become Godly by trying to develop 78% of the qualities of Godhead.

I like the concept. I also like the idea of including discussion relating to the political evolution of the Kali-yuga. The global technocracy seems to be evolving into a form of corporate feudalism which is starting to reveal to me anyway that the world has always been under the control of some sort of hidden monarchy even though we had the illusion of a representative republic for awhile. I find this intriguing because it seems at the end of the Kali-yuga the Kindgdoms of the world are so corrupt and debased that Krishna is forced to incarnate and kill the Kings in order to restore religion.

I gave you a very practical example of actual risks and historical problems versus theoretical risks of misuse of siddha pranali. Instead of addressing the facts, you are foaming at the mouth with hateful personal tirades.

 

I do not belittle what Srila Prabhupada did for the mission of Lord Chaitanya. I deeply appreciate what he has done. It is his disciples like you who belittle the entire mission of Lord Caitanya and Vaishnavism in general with their hate filled self-righteous attitude.

 

Apparently you did not learn how to respect and appreciate other Vaishnavas, especially if they come form a closely related camp. You folks praise Muslims and Christians for being 'Vaishnavas' but denigrate pretty much all other Gaudiyas as 'sahajiyas'. You are basically a sect, a personality cult, and nothing more, each year becoming less and less relevant on the world's scene of religions.

 

If anybody disrupted your movement it was your own leaders and their blind followers, who gave up thinking for themselves out of fear of comitting 'aparadha'.

It is nice to see that you have at least made some progress on this issue. When I first came to these forums you were one of many Iskcon members crying "aparadha" whenever anyone dared scrutinize the actions of Iskcon "gurus". You have even said that your own guru who stole millions from Iskcon and ran off with a massage therapist was acting as a pure guru before all this happened and thus even though you were initiated by a guru who ended up stealing millions and enjoying the Iskcon massage therapist you are still "officially" and exclusively connected to the parampara through diksha. So it is nice to see that you yourself have graduated from the level of blind follower at least on that front I will give you some credit but your endless laundry lists of criticisms of Prabhupada get nauseating in my opinion.

Now that you have graduated past the level of blind Iskcon follower overlooking the looting of millions of Prabhupadas property and have now run to take shelter of various other factions of GV I am happy that you are advancing in spiritual life but please realize there are people that still love Prabhupada and don't hold him personally responsible for the laundry list of failings you attribute to him and recognize that Prabhupada made a good faith effort in an almost intolerable and grotesque country and environment. If you have a better way of steering and directing the coarse of Krsna Consciousness in the future then go for it but politely please do not use the property or assets of Prabhupda in your endeavor and it would be a nice gesture if you could try to convince your guru to return the millions back to Prabhupdada. I am rooting for you.

The bottom line for me is that the acharya who spread Krishna consciousness and Gaudiya Vaishnavism all over the world did not approve of the siddha-pranali process. He rejected it.

So, for upstart devotees from all over the world to come along and trample on his directives, even though they would otherwise have no knowledge of Krishna or Gaudiya Vaishnavism without the sacrifice and dedication of Srila Prabhupada, is just a thankless insult and offense to the great soul who in fact is responsible for their great fortune of Krishna bhakti.

 

Srila Prabhupada tried strenuously to prevent this siddha-pranali nonsense from infecting the Krishna consciousness movement, but these thankless rascals are now coming along and trying to infect the Krishna consciousness movement with this siddha-pranali nonsense.

 

Such is the degraded foolishness of the western mleccas and Yavanas who have bitten the devotional hand that saved them from Aeons in Hell.

 

Despite Srila Prabhupada's best efforts to defend the Krishna consciousness movement from this infection, these rascals are trying mightily to introduce this siddha-pranali nonsense into the global movement that Srila Prabhupada alone inaugurated.

 

They will get no respect or honor from me.

They have stepped on the head of Srila Prabhupada to become siddha-pranali rascals and in so doing accuse others of passing stool on their head.

 

Obviously, they are thankless rascals that presume to know better than Srila Prabhuapada.

I don't believe that they they do.

I am not familiar with the intricacies of this debate but this is exactly why I am rarely spiritually inspired by the Kulapavanas and the Beggars of the world despite their extensive knowledge on Vaisnavism. All the while despite all the failings of Iskcon I am still inspired by Prabhupada even though he didn't treat his own diabetes . The Kulapavanas and Beggars of the world pose themselves as now being qualified to steer and make coarse corrections on the ship that Prabhuapda built without seemingly realizing that if it were not for Prabhupada they most likely would never in their life ended up hearing anything about Krishna. It is about respect and it almost like not offering the proper respect to your father but wanting to become the master of his house. If they went out and built their own house they would command more respect from me but leave Prabhupadas house to Prabhupada and those that love him and don't feel a need to point out a laundry list of Prabhupdas supposed failings.

Of course for offering my viewpoint on this they will probably call me an apadhi or something, hopefully I am wrong in this presumption.

I think it is safe to say that in 6 months raghu will probably ask this same question again on this forum in some form. It is only about the 100th time some form of this debate has been introduced in the past 3 months probably will come up 100 times in the 3 months after that and still there are no answers that satisfy. Just kidding.

The Five Stages of Collapse – Dmitry Orlov

Elizabeth Kübler-Ross defined the five stages of coming to terms with grief and tragedy

as denial, anger, bargaining, depression, and acceptance, and applied it quite successfully

to various forms of catastrophic personal loss, such as death of a loved one, sudden end to

one's career, and so forth. Several thinkers, notably James Howard Kunstler and, more

recently John Michael Greer, have pointed out that the Kübler-Ross model is also quite

terrifyingly accurate in reflecting the process by which society as a whole (or at least the

informed and thinking parts of it) is reconciling itself to the inevitability of a

discontinuous future, with our institutions and life supp ort systems undermined by a

combination of resource depletion, catastrophic climate change, and political impotence.

But so far, little has been said specifically about the finer structure of these

discontinuities. Instead, there is to be found continuum of subjective judgments, ranging

from "a severe and prolonged recession" (the prediction we most often read in the

financial press), to Kunstler's evocative but unscientific-sounding "clusterf**k," to the

ever-popular "Collapse of Western Civilization," painted with an ever-wider brushstroke.

For those of us who have already gone through all of the emotional stages of reconciling

ourselves to the prospect of social and economic upheaval, it might be helpful to have a

more precise terminology that goes beyond such emotionally charged phrases. Defining a

taxonomy of collapses might prove to be more than just an intellectual exercise: based on

our abilities and circumstances, some of us may be able to sp ecifically plan for a certain

stage of collapse as a temporary, or even permanent, stopping point. Even if society at the

current stage of socioeconomic complexity will no longer be possible, and even if, as

Tainter points in his "Collapse of Complex Societies," there are circumstances in which

collapse happens to be the correct adaptive response, it need not automatically cause a

population crash, with the survivors disbanding into solitary, feral humans dispersed in

the wilderness and subsisting miserably. Collapse can be conceived of as an orderly,

organized retreat rather than a rout.

For instance, the collapse of the Soviet Union - our most recent and my personal favorite

example of an imperial collapse - did not reach the point of political disintegration of the

republics that made it up , although some of them (Georgia, Moldova) did lose some

territory to separatist movements. And although most of the economy shut down for a

time, many institutions, including the military, public utilities, and public transp ortation,

continued to function throughout. And although there was much social dislocation and

suffering, society as a whole did not collapse, because most of the population did not lose

access to food, housing, medicine, or any of the other survival necessities. The commandand-

control structure of the Soviet economy largely decoupled the necessities of daily life

from any element of market p sychology, associating them instead with physical flows of

energy and physical access to resources. Thus situation, as I argue in my forthcoming

book, Reinventing Collapse, allowed the Soviet population to inadvertently achieve a

greater level of collapse-preparedness than is currently possible in the United States.

Having given a lot of thought to both the differences and the similarities between the two

superpowers - the one that has collapsed already, and the one that is collapsing as I write

this - I feel ready to attempt a bold conjecture, and define five stages of collapse, to serve

as mental milestones as we gauge our own collapse-preparedness and see what can be

done to improve it. Rather than tying each phase to a particular emotion, as in the Kübler-

Ross model, the proposed taxonomy ties each of the five collapse stages to the breaching

of a specific level of trust, or faith, in the status quo. Although each stage causes physical,

observable changes in the environment, these can be gradual, while the mental flip is

generally quite swift. It is something of a cultural universal that nobody (but a real fool)

wants to be the last fool to believe in a lie.

Stages of Collapse

Stage 1: Financial collapse. Faith in "business as usual" is lost. The future is no longer

assumed resemble the past in any way that allows risk to be assessed and financial assets

to be guaranteed. Financial institutions become insolvent; savings are wiped out, and

access to capital is lost.

Stage 2: Commercial collapse. Faith that "the market shall provide" is lost. Money is

devalued and/or becomes scarce, commodities are hoarded, import and retail chains break

down, and widespread shortages of survival necessities become the norm.

Stage 3: Political collapse. Faith that "the government will take care of you" is lost. As

official attempts to mitigate widespread loss of access to commercial sources of survival

necessities fail to make a difference, the political establishment loses legitimacy and

relevance.

Stage 4: Social collapse. Faith that "your people will take care of you" is lost. As local

social institutions, be they charities, community leaders, or other groups that rush in to

fill the power vacuum, run out of resources or fail through internal conflict.

Stage 5: Cultural collapse. Faith in the goodness of humanity is lost. People lose their

capacity for "kindness, generosity, consideration, affection, honesty, hospitality,

compassion, charity " (Turnbull, The Mountain People). Families disband and compete as

individuals for scarce resources. The new motto becomes "M ay you die today so that I

die tomorrow" (Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago). There may even be some

cannibalism.

Although many people imagine collapse to be a sort of elevator that goes to the subbasement

(our Stage 5) no matter which button you push, no such automatic mechanism

can be discerned. Rather, driving us all to Stage 5 will require that a concerted effort be

made at each of the intervening stages. That all the players seem poised to make just such

an effort may give this collapse the form a classical tragedy - a conscious but inexorable

march to p erdition - rather than a farce ("Oop s! Ah, here we are, Stage 5." - "So, whom

do we eat first?" - "Me! I am delicious!") Let us sketch out this process.

Financial collapse, as we are are currently observing it, consists of two parts. One is that

a part of the general population is forced to move, no longer able to afford the house they

bought based on inflated assessments, forged income numbers, and foolish expectations

of endless asset inflation. Since, technically, they should never have been allowed to buy

these houses, and were only able to do so because of financial and political malfeasance,

this is actually a healthy development. The second part consists of men in expensive suits

tossing bundles of suddenly worthless paper up in the air, ripping out their remaining

hair, and (some of us might uncharitably hope) setting themselves on fire on the steps of

the Federal Reserve. They, to express it in their own vernacular, "f**ked up," and so this

is also just as it should be.

The government response to this could be to offer some helpful homilies about "the

wages of sin" and to op en a few soup kitchens and flop houses in a variety of locations

including Wall Street. The message would be: "You former debt addicts and gamblers, as

you say, 'f**ked up,' and so this will really hurt for a long time. We will never let y ou

anywhere near big money again. Get yourselves over to the soup kitchen, and bring your

own bowl, because we don't do dishes." This would result in a stable Stage 1 collapse -

the Second Great Depression.

However, this is unlikely, because in the US the government happens to be debt addict

and gambler number one. As individuals, we may have been as virtuous as we wished,

but the government will have still run up exorbitant debts on our behalf. Every level of

government, from local municipalities and authorities, which need the financial markets

to finance their public works and public services, to the federal government, which relies

on foreign investment to finance its endless wars, is addicted to public debt. They know

they cannot stop borrowing, and so they will do anything they can to keep the game

going for as long as possible.

About the only thing the government currently seems it fit to do is extend further credit to

those in trouble, by setting interest rates at far below inflation, by accepting worthless bits

of paper as collateral and by pumping money into insolvent financial institutions. This

has the effect of diluting the dollar, further undermining its value, and will, in due course,

lead to hyp erinflation, which is bad enough in any economy, but is especially serious for

one dominated by imports. As imports dry up and the associated parts of the economy

shut down, we pass Stage 2: Commercial Collapse.

As businesses shut down, storefronts are boarded up and the population is left largely

penniless and dependent on FEMA and charity for survival, the government may

consider what to do next. It could, for example, repatriate all foreign troops and set them

to work on public works projects designed to directly help the population. It could

promote local economic self-sufficiency, by establishing community -supported

agriculture programs, erecting renewable energy systems, and organizing and training

local self-defence forces to maintain law and order. The Army Corps of Engineers could

be ordered to bulldoze buildings erected on former farmland around city centers, return

the land to cultivation, and to construct high-density solar-heated housing in urban

centers to resettle those who are displaced. In the interim, it could reduce homelessness

by imposing a steep tax on vacant residential properties and funneling the proceeds into

rent subsidies for the indigent. With p lenty of luck, such measures may be able to reverse

the trend, eventually providing for a restoration of pre-Stage 2 conditions.

This may or may not be a good plan, but in any case it is rather unrealistic, because the

United States, being so deeply in debt, will be forced to accede to the wishes of its

foreign creditors, who own a lot of national assets (land, buildings, and businesses) and

who would rather see a dependent American population slaving away working off their

debt than a self-sufficient one, conveniently forgetting that they have mortgaged their

children's futures to pay for military fiascos, big houses, big cars, and flat-screen

television sets. Thus, a much more likely scenario is that the federal government

(knowing who butters their bread) will remain subservient to foreign financial interests. It

will impose austerity conditions, maintain law and order through draconian means, and

aide in the construction of foreign-owned factory towns and plantations. As people start

to think that having a government may not be such a good idea, conditions become ripe

for Stage 3.

If Stage 1 collapse can be observed by watching television, observing Stage 2 might

require a hike or a bicycle ride to the nearest population center, while Stage 3 collapse is

more than likely to be visible directly through one's own living-room window, which

may or may not still have glass in it. After a significant amount of bloodletting, much of

the country becomes a no-go zone for the remaining authorities. Foreign creditors decide

that their debts might not be repaid after all, cut their losses and depart in haste. The rest

of the world decides to act as if there is no such place as The United States - because

"nobody goes there any more." So as not to lose out on the entertainment value, the

foreign press still prints sporadic fables about Americans who eat their young, much as

they did about Russia following the Soviet collapse. A few brave American expatriates

who still come back to visit bring back amazing stories of a different kind, but everyone

considers them eccentric and perhaps a little bit crazy.

Stage 3 collapse can sometimes be avoided by the timely introduction of international

peacekeepers and through the efforts of international humanitarian NGOs. In the

aftermath of a Stage 2 collapse, domestic authorities are highly unlikely to have either the

resources or the legitimacy, or even the will, to arrest the collapse dynamic and

reconstitute themselves in a way that the population would accept.

As stage 3 collapse runs its course, the power vacuum left by the now defunct fedral,

state and local government is filled by a variety of new power structures. Remnants of

former law enforcement and military, urban gangs, ethnic mafias, religious cults and

wealthy property owners all attempt to build their little empires on the ruins of the big

one, fighting each other over territory and access to resources. This is the age of Big

Men: charismatic leaders, rabble-rousers, ruthless Macchiavelian princes and war lords.

In the luckier places, they find it to their common advantage to p ool their resources and

amalgamate into some sort of legitimate local government, while in the rest their jostling

for power leads to a spiral of conflict and open war.

Stage 4 collapse occurs when society becomes so disordered and impoverished that it can

no longer supp ort the Big Men, who become smaller and smaller, and eventually fade

from view. Society fragments into extended families and small tribes of a dozen or so

families, who find it advantageous to band together for mutual support and defense. This

is the form of society that has existed over some 98.5% of humanity 's existence as a

biological species, and can be said to be the bedrock of human existence. Humans can

exist at this level of organization for thousands, perhaps millions of y ears. M ost

mammalian species go extinct after just a few million years, but, for all we know, Homo

Sapiens still have a million or two left.

If pre-collapse society is too atomized, alienated and individualistic to form cohesive

extended families and tribes, or if its physical environment becomes so disordered and

impoverished that hunger and starvation become widespread, then Stage 5 collapse

becomes likely. At this stage, a simpler biological imperative takes over, to preserve the

life of the breeding couples. Families disband, the old are abandoned to their own

devices, and children are only cared for up to age 3. All social unity is destroyed, and

even the couples may disband for a time, preferring to forage on their own and refusing

to share food. This is the state of society described by the anthropologist Colin Turnbull

in his book The Mountain People. If society prior to Stage 5 collapse can be said to be the

historical norm for humans, Stage 5 collapse brings humanity to the verge of physical

extinction.

As we can easily imagine, the default is cascaded failure: each stage of collapse can

easily lead to the next, perhaps even overlapping it. In Russia, the process was arrested

just past Stage 3: there was considerable trouble with ethnic mafias and even some

warlordism, but government authority won out in the end. In my other writings, I go into

a lot of detail in describing the exact conditions that inadvertently made Russian society

relatively collapse-proof. Here, I will simply say that these ingredients are not currently

present in the United States.

While attempting to arrest collapse at Stage 1 and Stage 2 would probably be a dangerous

waste of energy, it is p robably worth everyone's while to dig in their heels at Stage 3,

definitely at Stage 4, and it is quite simply a matter of physical survival to avoid Stage 5.

In certain localities - those with high population densities, as well as those that contain

dangerous nuclear and industrial installations - avoiding Stage 3 collapse is rather

important, to the point of inviting foreign troops and governments in to maintain order

and avoid disasters. Other localities may be able to prosper indefinitely at Stage 3, and

even the most impoverished environments may be able to supp ort a sparse population

subsisting indefinitely at Stage 4.

Although it is possible to prepare directly for surviving Stage 5, this seems like an

altogether demoralizing thing to attempt. Preparing to survive Stages 3 and 4 may seem

somewhat more reasonable, while explicitly aiming for Stage 3 may be reasonable if you

plan to become one of the Big Men. Be that as it may, I must leave such preparations as

an exercise for the reader. My hope is that these definitions of specific stages of collapse

will enable a more sp ecific and fruitful discussion than the one currently dominated by

such vague and ultimately nonsensical terms as "the collapse of Western civilization."

Perhaps if Srila Prabhupada was actually treated properly for his diabetes he would have stayed with us for several more years. He did not follow proper diet, did not take insulin, and did not monitor his blood sugar levels.

Maybe true who knows but I don't blame him for leaving with all the stuff I have read about that was going on in Iskcon. I read that Prabhupada's guru left early as well because of all the crazy stuff going on in his matha.

I stay away from allopathic doctors as well as much as possible so I can't blame anyone that wants to try and stay away from them if possible.

Have experienced firsthand the horrors of psychiatric medicine and mental hospitals. It is mostly just the American environment that is depressing and medication is not going to solve that because America has become the Fourth Reich and people have unkowingly fallen into the traps set by escaped Nazis that have formed the multinational corporations that now control the government and are using advanced propaganda techniqes to keep people enslaved in the left right paradigm while they institute mass soft kill and hard kill eugenics if they get their wish.

So in other words, what you are telling me is that GV's don't object to people worshipping Shiva for liberation. They only object to worshipping Shiva in the context of Advaita?

From what I remember reading in Prabhupada's books is that less intelligent people worship Shiva. I wouldn't call it objecting as Prabhupada also said don't waste a bunch of time trying to debate too much about this sectarian disputes. Vaisnavas are not supposed to be worried about winning debates and controversies as much as they are supposed to be presenting Srimad Bhagavatam and Bhagavad As it is or at least how they view it being. I go by Prabhupada's books because those are the books that came to me when I was searching for answers but I don't personally begrudge other people's takes on the Vedas. It is like the Christians they are broken up into so many different sects and they basically all hate each other but in life there really is no time to waste on hate and it is better just to focus on the beauty of Jesus or Krishna or Siva whatever floats your boat.

I have lived 29 years of my life, I have hardly found a person other than my kinsmen and parents, who wished good for me. This is a bit strange, whenver something good happens to me, whenever i wished to share it with my so called friends, I could straight away sense the jealous in thier words and on thier face sprouting. I have always tried my level best to think and wish good for everyone, but that doesnt seem to come back. Now my question is does someone thinking bad or wishing bad for me affect me. For example I get this feeling that the person with whom I am currently living is indeed not wishing good for me. Does that effect me??? Or in otherwords does that effect in general???

 

Thanks in advanced.

 

hari bol

It is a sad fact of human nature. Was listening to Alex Jones show today and he said the people of America and Mexico have become so mentally ill that they are like crabs in a bucket. If one of the crabs tries to crawl out of the bucket the other crabs will try to drag it back down with the masses. It is unnerving when even friends are envious but you just got to keep fighting the good fight and always try to stay calm and centered and faithful to the Lord and also don't be ashamed to take care of yourself. Just my opinion.

It may be maya but I have been listening to 3 of Maidens latest albums that I missed out on and they are just great. Makes me feel like a kid again when I am able to appreciate the songwriting of Iron Maiden again. Those guys touched a part of my soul that made me feel alive when I didn't have a friend in the world as a youth. For awhile I lost that so thanks to Krishna that he gave me that gift back. Anyway I always appreciated your posts, your insight and how you are respectful to everyone. Krishna will bless you in all your endeavors in my opinion.

But here again, such conceptions do not challange the human mind.

We hide behind a very subjective contentment, one that is not valid for every human being.

I guess it takes many many births in the material world to get to the point where one is attracted to bhakti. The jnani's or philosophical speculators I guess they just keep on speculating and speculating for lifetime after lifetime until they finally get tired and take up bhakti but I guess it is also possible to philosophically realize that God is a person.

But what if I don't understand?

Or I get it wrong?

If there is something you don't understand I would ask questions to someone like stonehearted, Ghari, theist, mahak or someone like that on this board. They all seem to have a very deep understanding of the Vedic literature. I have been reading their posts for almost 7 or 8 years and have learned a lot just from reading.

My understanding of the Vedic literature is that the philosophical approach to the absolute truth is pretty difficult. In Vedic literature it seems they seem to emphasize bhakti or devotional service over the philosphical method of discovering the divine person.

Thank you for your advice.

I have to admit that I'm still ignorant in terms of spirituality.

Is there hope for me?

Absolutely. Like thehat said read Bhagavad Gita then Srimad Bhagavatam if you are interested in getting the Indian take on spirituality. They definetly have a unique perspective on things and a rich spiritual tradition that speaks of a golden age from long ago that addresses a lot of the difficulties and suffering in life. Definetly worth studying and it gives a whole different perspective on the history of the Earth etc.