cbrahma

Sankara was not an impersonalist, because SP says so. Jesus was a Vaishnava, because SP says so. Man never went to the moon, because SP says so.

 

Do you see what I am getting at here? Try to think for yourself, cbrahma, you claim to be an educated man. I am seriously beginning to doubt it.

Where did I claim to be anything?

On the one hand I am accused of endless argumentation and on the other of not thinking. I am able to argue effectively because I debate

1) Logically (which requires thinking)

2) with appeal to authority (which requires knowledge)

And why is this about me? What is your excuse?

Do you know what a jnani-mishra-bhakti yogin is?

 

And that it is possible to be a follower of Sri Caitanya being such. As long as we hold ananya-suddha-bhakti as the ideal.

 

Naam Prabhu (Nityananda Gauranga Hare Krsna) will take care of the rest.

 

No I don't know what that is. But you are obviously a jnani philosophical speculator and to some extent so am I. Prabhupada was involved in serious debating, not because he liked debating, but to strike away the mental tricks that blocked the truth and people can get really stubborn in their attachments to illusory ideas.

The problem is where does debating stop and service begin. On the one hand there are those who distinguish themselves by their sadhana, following all the rules down to every detail. On the other hand there are those who are more interested in knowledge.

I call attention to the following letter by somebody I consider to be a first rate bhakta.

 

Our reply to Brahma dasa was as follows:

 

• Dear Brahma dasa,
  
  Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.
  
  You wrote: "It's one thing for a person with little in the way of practical devotional engagement to participate in these never-ending internet arguments, but quite another for a devotee who is fully involved in seva and sadhana to do so. Swami is already overloaded with service responsibilities, including answering the dozens of Sanga questions that are always pending. He really has no time to dialogue with critics on your site."
  
  I have to say, I find your reply to be quite arrogant and condescending. By what means do you determine in advance that anyone who would try to engage the Swami has "little in the way of practical devotional engagement"?
  
  As for the "never-ending internet arguments", the tradition of debate in our Vaisnava culture makes it our duty to discuss intelligently, sincerely and thread bare. If you don't want to participate in that, that's fine. But don't expect to float your messages and opinions through the Sun without having responsibility for rebutting your challengers.
  
  As for how busy the Swami is with his seva and sadhana, we're all busy. We all have our personal service to Krsna, and we're all attempting to keep up our sadhana. If the mood you convey in your email is your own, and not the Swami's, then I think you do him a disservice to speak on his behalf in this way. If the mood comes directly from Tripurari, please share my response with him.
  
  If Swami Tripurari wants to join the ranks of Sun contributors, he'll have to carve out time in his busy schedule to actually participate in the process, just like the rest of us have to do. We are not interested in using the Sun as a one-way broadcast means for Swami Sanga, nor are we interested in funneling our site traffic to you, for your benefit, with no reciprocation of participation at this end. That seems a very one-sided relationship.
  
  Your servant,
  Rocana dasa

 

I have an illness which is degenerative yes. One of my best friends passed away at the age of fifty (two months ago) from the disease. I am twelve years younger than him.

 

This radically changed my attachment to the body....over the last five or six years....as I journey on way way as a householder. I love life cbrahma...and do not fear death...because my faith is deep, its not so text book. I have been searching and seeking for years - and am grateful for that gift. We are fortunate hey....

 

I am very eccentric in life cbrahma....my good friends are too lol. I adore spirituality. Say no more.

Well it's a kind of mercy I suppose.

Why do you feel impelled to fight with everyone, cbrahma? Why this fanaticism? Maybe, this is why people hate religion, they just can't tolerate the fanaticism of most religious people.

I don't fight with everyone. I ignore a lot of people. Gimme a break parroting that cheap argument. Besides it is irrelevant to the discussion. I'm hardly religious and nobody considers me a fanatic. It's just that few people, especially religious ones know how to debate logically and validly so it takes a while to make the point.

Truth is truth cbrahma...the most complete science on love I have encountered is Gaudiya Vaisnavism.

 

My encounter is experience....this encounter does not need defending...as it is temporary.

I thought you were calling it a night.

I am coming from the point of jnana-mishra-bhakti yogin.

 

I am happy to share my life online. My body will become dust...maybe the internet will last longer. I am using this forum as my spiritual diary while enjoying the company here.

 

Oneday I will write my journal from my daily thoughts maybe. I have nothing to defend...the body will be dust in due course. (but dont cross me )

Are you suffering from a serious illness? (not sarcastic).

If you can't fight them, join them, eh? SP was smart enough to co-opt Sankara, thanks to the latter's immense popularity.

SP didn't need popularity, to steal Sankara's thunder. He was just noting that Sankara wasn't a true impersonalist.

No. Unless we have realization of our siddha deha, all is theoretical about our identity as personal spirit. I do not know that person, form, qualities and pastimes....yet:). If I did I would not tell you anyhow....lol!

 

So in the flow of this conversation with jingle, shvu, bishadi, and dark...I am explaining how the partially realized jnani can relish both god and life. And at the same time discussing my faith in Personalism. Using jnana...as you say intellect and other faculty. jnana-mishra-bhakti.

 

If I was to negate everything as a jnani...I might as well sit in a cave solitary. I would not see much purpose in the world if I negated everything. Thus sense enjoyment still exists.

 

But we gradually begin to see human dealings as more spiritual as we develop.....hey. The aspiring vaisnava does not need to negate that. See my 'man is not an island thread'. That would be ridiculous lifestyle.

 

I hope this answers your question ok. It is my life presently.

 

I see little point in arguing theoretically all the time...and find forums as place to occasionaly share about where we are at spiritually. And that would mean that I would have to speak from the perspective of not being fully realized. I hope you have some appreciation of personal dealings on a forum...where those typed black letters have a person behind them lol:).

 

But hey, its good to know where we are on the path. And onward we go..............>>

This is a discussion forum about spiritual topics. If somebody makes a philosophical point like adwaita is attractive, I will debate it since it is misleading and fallacious. If you're not about the truth how can you be spiritual? To trivialize the whole thing as being argumentative is a cheap evasion in my opinion. You are searching obviously, which is the speculative path - the jnana yoga. But honestly I don't know where you're coming from. But then it doesn't really matter.

What instructions. Just living life cbrahma...life experience. I will end this entry to some argumentation here:). lol

 

Can't be bothered tonight.

It's 4:00 am here.

what are you asking me cbrahma...for instructions:).

 

 

I would hope so. Thats my faith bro:(.

No I'm asking where you got these instructions. I don't think it needs faith so much as intelligent realization. A dead body without spirit is just a lump of matter. No personality. Clearly whatever constitued that personality was

not identical with that lump of matter. I'm somewhat amazed that you melt into agreement with DW who uses Sankara to prove adwaita is 'flexible' (whatever that means).

According to Prabhupada, and yes I will quote him since he is the most reliable source, Sankaracarya is a 'covered' personalist since he accepts that Krsna is bhagavan.

In this world human love is possible because of persons. We can see the impersonal presence in others (christ). Notice I left the Jesus (person out). And we can taste some bliss on the relationship through jnana. Maybe we can advance to super-soul realization and experience flavor there, in our dealings with other people. God consciousness. Surely there is flavor while being emodied (but not the body).

 

 

 

But if we do not have these bodies...yes cbrahma...how can love be dynamic.

 

That leaves room for the philosophy of love (Personalism). And love of the Supreme Person. And an eternal spiritual body. As I have said in my previous posts in this thread (indirectly).

You have personal mis-identified with embodied. Our individuality is not reduceable to bodily existence.

I do not have such pure devotion, but am presently charmed by the brahman and its possibilty for love. Maybe in due course aspiration for pure bhakti may awaken more. That is my heart thus far. That would be real relationship....with Personality.

 

How can there be love without persons?

I think you're rushing to conclusions. Consider this. If you have a headache, the "I" identifies itself with the head. If disturbed, the "I" identifies with thoughts, and so on. If there's no identification at all, there is no personal "I." Yet, there is consciousness.

 

In short, there's consciousness without an "I." Because there's no "I," we can't call it personal. We have to call it impersonal.

 

And because this consciousness isn't restricted by attributes and forms such as body, mind etc., we call it nameless/formless/attributeless.

The many ways the I can identify itself shows that it exists seperately from them but not that it is impersonal.

'Without bodily identification' does not equal impersonal.

Cbrahma, I think you're frustrated. Maybe, christianity will be the right religion for you? It's simple and easy to practice, and comes with guarantee;), perhaps you must give it a shot.

Yes I already am practicing Christianity. It isn't simple in the sense of easy , but it isn't complicated with dozens and dozens of little rules that make every day life impossibly stressful. That's what the Old Testament did and the Pharisees were the perfect examples of that fussy rule-following. They plotted to kill Jesus precisely because He understood the Spirit rather than the letter of the law. It would be interesting to take a poll as to how many members of this forum actually prepare prasadam according to all the rules stated in the krsna post, if they do at all. It takes up so much time, that a working person wouldn't have time for anything else.

by cbrahma:

These complications conditions and exceptions are not just impractical they portray God as a small-minded petty policeman who's offended by trivia

 

Your statement is scrambled. God is in the details!

There is certainly Some-one who is a

"small-minded petty policeman who's offended by trivia" --we'll just all have to search out where in endless time and space this some-one may be found.

 

Tune-in, turn-on, be significant or bust.

There are so many rules in the Vedic scriptures, that only someone who has read all the scriptures can follow all of them. We do our best to find out the rules, and follow them when we learn them. If an authentic spiritual master authorizes, then the minor rules can be compromised. Washing plates that one has eaten off of in a separate sink than the plates that Krsna has been offered is not a necessary rule for someone who's not initiated. It is optional. I posted this article mainly for those who might want to know the basics. I didn't intend to give a complete all-rule-included-guide.

 

Prabhupada encouraged his followers to drink milk, he never said to become a vegan. The fact is that one is not implicated in the karma of killing a cow by drinking milk, otherwise Prabhupada would have told people to become vegans. He must have known that those whom he encouraged to drink milk would have gone out and bought commercial milk especially in his time when veganism was less common. It is true that the commercial milk industry slaughters their cows and treats them inhumanely. But if I protest their milk, it isn't going to save any cows. The reason the cows are getting killed is because people are buying meat. Am I implicated in cow slaughter if I buy fruit from a farmer who owns a slaughterhouse? When I buy milk, it just means the cow gets milked more, and I'm helping her out becuase I'm taking her milk and offering it to the Lord. She gets spiritual benefit because her milk becomes prashadam.

Krsna doesn't accept carrots, so no matter what you are implicated in a karmic reaction if you eat them, but they're nowhere near as bad as mushrooms, onions, and garlic, what to speak of meat. If you offer carrots to the lord, it will not be accepted. If you offer milk to the lord, Krsna may choose to accept, depending on your level of love and devotion.

These complications conditions and exceptions are not just impractical they portray God as a small-minded petty policeman who's offended by trivia

Excellent points, well spoken! There seems a huge propaganda machine activated to close all the temples in the Western hemisphere and people use any forum to push that policy. What we have all over Europe are no more preaching centers of bhakti-yoga but Hindu cultural centers. This is of course also an important service but was not the actual framework directive by the great acaryas of Gaudiya Vaishnavism who ordered Radha-Krishna temples to be opened worldwide.

At a recent GBC meeting ISKCON gurus even admitting, more than 90% of their disciples don't live within temples anymore. What comes next?

I'm hardly part of a propaganda machine. ISKCON has very much embraced the clerical churchianity model to which you of monk/congregation. That is the cause of their failure. Not the so-called propaganda machine.

To argue that this training sometimes fails is relevant but to stop a program, initiated by great acaryas, is surely not the solution.

 

Where have I said to stop a program? And what program are you talking about? Monasteries. ISKCON is not a Church and Vaisnavism is not a religion.

This cbrahma is a funny guy, he doesn't chant, doesn't offer his food (even say's being a vegetarian is hard) yet he thinks he can tell everyone what KC is really all about like he knows, if he really knew he would be experiencing it and if he was experiencing it he would not be having such problems following.

 

Thiest I disagree with you, cbrahmas beliefs are what makes him so agitated, which in turn makes him want to endlessly argue with everyone. The closer you are to truth in your beliefs the more calm you are within yourself and your dealings with others. This cbrahma is clearly a very disturbed person and that becomes manifest in his dealings here with others.

 

The need to argue endlessly or the desire to does not show you have attained any level of advancement at all no matter how many quotes, letters you can copy and paste. In fact cbrahma is using the words of Srila Prabupada for his own ego gratification and using them to crush others, this is a great aparadha!

You are speculating outrageously. You just registered with this forum and you are already pontificating about my mind and soul. How presumptous. If you knew what my discussions consisted of you wouldn't be able to back that up. If I wanted to argue with everybody I wouldn't agree with anybody, and that is simply a falsehood.

If it makes you feel better, more justified, more advanced to dismiss everything I say with this gross speculation rather than addressing my statements on their own merits, so much the better. I have at least six people on ignore precisely because I don't want to argue pointlessly, especially with these no-brainer outrageous personal diatribes of the kind you are launching to justify any argument you put forth. BTW I'm not the least bit agitated. The people I'm disagreeing with proper support I might add are the ones getting agitated. And it's really twisted to claim that quoting Prabhupada as such to make a logical philosophical point is apharada.LOL. You think Theist, the one who crafted this little gem of an 'ad hominem' is a fully practicing devotee? Ask him.

Whatever. I don't want to argue about it.

Ironically you brought it up. I don't waste my time arguing over semantics of Vedic texts and with people who persist in flaming. So my endless argumentation has definite and rational limits. My disagreements are topic-specific. I would not put anybody on ignore if I just wanted to argue. It occurs to me that it was a subject I brought up long ago when this forum was full of pedantic Vedic text quibblers. So they argued that my objecting to their arguing was arguing and round and round it went. I guess you're falling in with the same argument.

It's not your beliefs that are tiresome it is your need to endless argue.

I don't need to argue in general. That's an ad hominem you can't prove.

You seem to argue with everything with which you disagree as does everybody else.

Brahmä boldly accepts the form of the Lord as transcendental and non-different from the Lord, and denounces those who do not. Therefore those people who follow in the footsteps of Lord Brahmä are really intelligent and learned. They are qualified to understand the Lord and His form as non different and transcendental.

I agree. It sounds stupid.

 

But is that not what the soul is - esssentially? As any attributes you assign to your soul now are actually part of your earthly personality. Your likes/dislikes, memories, plans, etc.

 

Wihout memory of the past, we are nothing. Since memory is an atrribute of the physical body, the nature of a soul would be impersonal.

 

Cheers

Our forgetting does not cancel out our core personality - our existence. Every time we sleep we would cease to exist.

Absolute monism is tantamount to atheism.

Bombay

28 December, 1974

74-12-28“Krsna says in the Bhagavad-gita, chapter 18; sarva-dharman parityajya, mam ekam saranam vraja, aham tvam sarva-papebhyo, moksayisyami ma sucah [bg. 18.66]. So why you want to worship someone else. Krsna, Himself, recommends mam ekam, he alone. Therefore we must do like that. If one wants to water the tree he waters the root. There is no necessity of watering the branches. The demigods are all different parts of the universal form of the Supreme Lord. But Krsna is even more than that whole complete universal form. He is the origin of that universal form. Therefore I do not encourage you to worship this demigod, Ganesa. It is not required, it is not necessary. Simply worship Krsna. Perform nice devotional service to Krsna. Then your lives will certainly become perfect. Of course if one has got some sentiment for achieving the blessings of Ganesa for accumulating large sums of money to serve Krsna, then he may perform this Ganesa worship, privately, not making a public show. But first of all he must give me $100,000 per month. Not a single farthing less. If he can supply this amount, $100,000 per month, then he will be allowed to do this Ganesa Puja. Otherwise he should not do it. It will not be good. That is my order. So all of you keep yourselves strong in Krsna Consciousness by following all of my basic principles. That is of the utmost importance. Do not fail to chant 16 rounds daily, rise early, come to mangala arati, come to classes and follow the 4 regulative principles. In this way your life will become free from all anxieties. Please try to distribute my books in huge quantities more and more. This is very much satisfying to me.

I hope this meets you in good health.

Your ever well-wisher,

A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami ”

Letter to: Gurukrpa