Bhakta Harry

Did Srila Prabhupada authorize you to go around and disrupt ISKCON festivals by distributing offensive & blasphemous magazines? If so, please produce a copy of it here.

My challenge to you - is - provide proof of your claim that these magazines are "offensive & blasphemous".

Seems like more 'hot headedness' to me .

at one time many of Prabhupada's godbrothers saw him as a conditioned soul too.

That's quite correct prabhu. I guess that shows their lack of advancement and thus Srila Prabupada's comment that none of them were qualified to be acarya.

the rules apply equally to all. that is having a cool head. you place requirements on the new gurus that you do not place on Prabhupada (such as having an explicit proof of authorization to initiate disciples in each and every case).

It is Srila Prabhupada who states this. So either you accept his authority or you reject it, that is your choice. No one can force you to do so.

"One should take initiation from a bona fide spiritual master coming in the disciplic succession, who is authorised by his predecessor spiritual master. This is called diksa -vidhana."

(S.B. 4.8.54, purport)

that requirement is bogus to begin with,

So now you know better than Srila Prabhupada?

but if you adopt it, you must adopt it all the way, including Srila Prabhupada. acharya teaches by his own personal example, remember?

As mentioned in a previous post Srila Prabhupada does confirm that he was ordered by his guru.

Did Srila Prabhupada receive such an express permission to become next guru from Srila Bhaktisiddhanta? If so, please produce a copy of it here.

yes, and when he was questioned on this, as you have done he replied as follows .....

Indian man: When did you become the spiritual leader of Krishna consciousness?

Prabhupada: What is that?

Brahmananda: He's asking when did you become the spiritual leader of Krishna consciousness?

Prabhupada: When my Guru Maharaja ordered me. This is the guru-parampara.

So he clearly says above that he was ordered by his guru maharaja to be guru.

Indian: Did it...

Prabhupada: Try to understand. Don't go very speedily. A guru can become guru when he's ordered by his guru. That's all. Otherwise nobody can become guru.

Indian woman 2: (Hindi)

Prabhupada: (Hindi) Sadhi mam prapannam. "I am surrendered to You. Whatever You say, I shall carry out." That's all.

Indian man: When did he tell you to...?

Prabhupada: What is the business, when did he tell me? And why shall I disclose to you? It is so very insignificant thing that I have to explain to you?

So just like you this Indian man is demanding to know more, but Srila Prabhupada tells him .....

Indian man: No, I am just curious when...

Prabhupada: You should be curious within your limit. You should know that one can become guru when he is ordered by his guru, this much.

 

you envious snakes cant stand a Vaishnava being praised for his good preaching service.

Name calling will not convince me that Indradyumna is worthy of praise. If you can prove that he is preaching according to Srila Prabhupada's direction and not concocting his own bogus conclusions - then I will certainly give him praise.

Some people just cannot stand it when a Vaisnava is shown some appreciation and honored. We can see this devotees life and preaching efforts, which as far as I can tell are totally non-pretentious,

We have to become sastra caksusa- see by the eyes of the scriptures. The scriptures tell us that someone disobeying his gurus order is not such an elevated soul.

(3) To disobey the orders of the spiritual master. [NOD 8]

and understand that he is walking in the blessing of his Guru, Srila Prabhupada.

 

He is not guru by the approval of the GBC but by his desire to carry on the mission of Srila Prabhupada and Lord Caitanya.

He he didn't get his guru approval vote from the GBC then how did he get to be an initiating guru in ISKCON?

Prabhupada said:

You, all my disciples, everyone should become spiritual master. (London, August 22, 1973)

From a bona fide spiritual master you receive knowledge, because he will present as he has received from his spiritual master. He'll not adulterate or manufacture something. That is the bona fide spiritual master. And that is very easy. To become spiritual master is not very difficult thing. You'll have to become spiritual master. You, all my disciples, everyone should become spiritual master. It is not difficult. It is difficult when you manufacture something. But if you simply present whatever you have heard from your spiritual master, it is very easy. If you want to become overintelligent, to present something, to interpret something, whatever over you have heard from spiritual master you can make some further addition, alteration, then you'll spoil whole thing. Then you'll spoil whole thing. Don't make addition or alteration. Simply present as it is. Therefore, we have begun Bhagavad-gita As It Is. Don't try to become over spiritual master. Then you'll spoil. Remain always a servant of your spiritual master and present the thing as you have heard. You'll be spiritual master. This is secret. You should know it. Don't try to become overintelligent. That will spoil. Evam parampara praptam imam rajarsayo viduh [bg. 4.2]. This is the... So (child talking) you can stop.(?)

So Chaitanya Mahaprabhu says,

amara ajnaya guru hana tara ei desa

yare dekha, tare kaha, 'krsna'-upadesa

[Cc. Madhya 7.128]

Just see. It is very nice. You'll find in Chaitanya-caritamrta, now it is published. Chaitanya Mahaprabhu says, He is the Supreme Lord, Krishna. He says, amara ajnaya. "Whatever I say, amara ajnaya, by My order, you become a spiritual master." Chaitanya Mahaprabhu. So one may be very illiterate, no education, or no scholarship, may not be born in brahmana family, or may not be a sannyasi. There are so many qualification. But one may not have all these qualifications. He may be rascal number one, but still, he can become spiritual master. How? Amara ajnaya. As Krishna says, as Chaitanya Mahaprabhu says, if you follow, then you become spiritual master. One may be rascal number one from material estimation, but if he simply strictly follows whatever is said by Chaitanya Mahaprabhu or His representative spiritual master, then he becomes a guru.. (London, August 22, 1973)

The words 'spiritual master' need not necessarily mean diksa guru.

Why is it that people like you always associate the words 'spiritual master' with diksa guru? It's just like a lusty man, who when he sees a woman, can only think of sex. Or it is like a businessman who looks at everything as an opportunity to make money. Persons like you associate the words spiritual master only with diksa/initiating guru.

This quote in question does not link this 'becoming spiritual master' to first waiting for Srila Prabhupada's departure. So how can it be speaking of diksa gurus, which can only come into existence after the spiritual master has first departed? This quote and so many of the other quotes that persons like you present do just that - they speak of acting as 'spiritual master' without needing to wait for Srila Prabhupada to depart first.

The full quote also goes onto quote Lord Caitanya's order to the Brahmana Kurma to become guru:

amara ajnaya guru hana tara ei desa

yare dekha, tare kaha, krsna-upadesa

[Cc. Madhya 7.128]

This was an order given by Lord Caitanya to an uninitiated Brahmana whom Lord Caitanya had just met, to act as a spiritual master while Lord Caitanaya was still on the planet, and who was to act as such a spiritual master by not traveling with the Lord, but by staying in his home and just preaching to his friends and family. Lord Caitanya then gave the same advice to anyone he met whenever he entered a village, visited a temple or met on the roadside. Now everyone acting as a family guru without any formal training or initiation immediately in the presence of the current link, is not an order to be a successor diksa guru in the parampara and become the next current link. To make it doubly clear, in the purports to this verse, Srila Prabhupada states:

"It is best not to accept any disciples."

 

So:

a) Preach immediately in the presence of the current link.

b) No initiation or temple training required.

c) No traveling - stick to your family and neighbours only.

d) Don't make any disciples.

e) Anyone and everyone is instantly eligible. You just got to repeat what it says in the sastra. No other qualification required, "not very difficult thing."

This is the type of Guru Srila Prabhupada is speaking about, however there is no order to become the 'sit in Srila Prabhupada's seat since Srila Prabhupada is now dead and gone' spiritual master .

Clear as clear can be.

Correct

But the ritviks say no-one can be a guru and give diksa except Srila Prabhupada. This idea is just nonsense. A speculative theory based on ignorance, preached by kanistha adhikaris.

As mentioned previously there has to be authorization from Srila Prabhupada.

"One should take initiation from a bona fide spiritual master coming in the disciplic succession, who is authorised by his predecessor spiritual master. This is called diksa -vidhana."

(S.B. 4.8.54, purport)

Bhakti Swarup Damodara Maharaj's disciples know that he gave them diksa (he wasn't just a ritvik). That new generation will carry on the Parampara of Srila Prabhupada. Others will carry it on as well, in other places.

So are we going to see Bhakti Swarup Damodara Maharaj's disciples continue his branch of the parampara as you claim or are we going to see the GBC stop Bhakti Swarup Damodara Maharaj's branch of the parampara?

The GBC’s guru hoax program can be seen as ending certain branches of the ISKCON parampara, since as soon as one of their unauthorised gurus leaves his body, immediately a disciple would need to succeed him, lest the “parampara stop”; and yet the following GBC gurus are all physically absent and no “living guru” has replaced them to become the next GBC authorised “living link” in the parampara:

HH Gaura Govinda Swami: “parampara” ended in 1996

HH Tamal Krishna Goswami: “parampara” ended in 2002

HH Sridhara Swami: “parampara” ended in 2004

HH Bhakti Tirtha Swami: “parampara” ended in 2005

HH Bhakti Swarup Damodara: “parampara” ended in 2006?

It is ironic that on the one hand the GBC have argued that in the case of Srila Prabhupada the “law” of disciplic succession means that all his disciples immediately are supposed to become guru on his departure, and indeed in this case we had 11 immediate replacements; yet as seen from the cases above, the GBC are unable to find even one person to continue the “living parampara” and “succeed” the so-called 'guru' after many years.

And while that is happening, the ritviks are sitting at their computers planning "arguments" and writing abusive articles that bring these ritviks nothing but bad karma and the sin of Vaishnava aparadha.

The Parampara and the sankirtana is carrying on. Thanks to the traveling preachers. No thanks to Krishnakant.

Heh, babe, you want to look in the mirror someday because it looks to me, like you are doing the same thing.

There is no directive anywhere from Srila Prabhupada that any of his disciples are authorised to act as initiating Gurus, including Indradyumna Swami; rather, the only directive ever issued by Srila Prabhupada on the future of initiations in ISKCON was the July 9th 1977 Letter to all GBCs and Temple Presidents, which only authorises ritviks, or representatives, who are meant to initiate new disciples on behalf of and for Srila Prabhupada – an instruction repeated no less than three times in this one document!

This very guru system of which Indradyumna Swami hold membership, is completely unauthorized and in direct disobedience to Srila Prabhupada’s instructions.

devastating - to cause widespread ruin and desolation to, as by war. to overwhelm or overpower.

deva - Sanskrit, "god"

stating -To set forth in words; declare.

As others have pointed out, it has been said before, the message remains the same.

The solution is also the same - acceptance of Srila Prabhupada's approved systems. ie: Back to Prabhupada's instructions.

ISKCON's unauthorized trial & error guru systems will result in more calamities.

“”What we were trying to do now you have to understand had never been done. It had just never been done and to me it’s entirely natural that in this case when you’re doing something that had never been done; when you’re going to have a single institution with many different spiritual masters and there are many different disciples who are going to have to work together in a cooperative and unified way. Just hadn’t been done.

 

How to do it? And to me the only the way you can do it is to try this and if that doesn’t work try this….. until you finally find what works out. So I think it was very difficult for anyone to foresee, so it seems that the only way to do this is by trying to do it. And see what works and what doesn’t work and Prabhupada himself said that he used the trial and error method, so I’d don’t think it is not bona-fide.”

(Ravindra Svarupa Das, (ex-GCB chairman) Issues in ISKCON Reform lecture, June 29th-July 3rd, 1999)

Bhakta Harry,

We should all stop wasting time simply finding faults in the instituion and blaming everybody.

Firstly, please note the following statement from Srila Prabhupada in Bhagavad-gita As It Is:

"According to social conventions, it is said that one can speak the truth only when it is palatable to others. But that is not truthfulness. The truth should be spoken in a straightforward way, so that others will understand actually what the facts are. If a man is a thief and if people are warned that he is a thief, that is truth. Although sometimes the truth is unpalatable, one should not refrain from speaking it." (Bhagavad-gita As It Is, 10.4-5, purport)

Secondly, please consider the following verse from Sri Isopanisad:

"Only one who can learn the process of nescience and that of transcendental knowledge side by side can transcend the influence of repeated birth and death and enjoy the full blessings of immortality." (Sri Isopanisad, Mantra 11)

So the full truth, both what is right and what is wrong, must be spoken for everyone's benefit. And finally, consider the following from one of the 80 ISKCON Guru hoaxers he says:

"As the GBC cannot be expected to take needed action to stop deviations before they become disasters, it seems the only recourse for responsible members of ISKCON is to take the matter to gutter level, i.e. the internet. Painful and undignified as such public laundry-washing may be, it might at least create an awareness of deviations and warn devotees not to get sidelined into weird cults going on in the name of ISKCON." (Bhakti Vikash Swami, 23/03/03, PAMHO Text: 160561)

I think the above sums up my position perfectly.

The general population that is suffering in this materil existence couldn't give a damn what is going on inside an institution such as ISKCON.

What the people give a damn about shouldn't interfere with our duty. Srila Prabhupada says:

"Our business is to point out who is not a saint." (Srila Prabhupada, Morning Walk, April 10th, 1974)

they're in need of mercy. Rather than waste time fighting, we must maek teh effort to reach out to these fallen souls. In doing so, we receive the mercy as well becasue many of us are fallen too.

Of course, the GBC side initiated the fighting by expelling and beating any devotee who claimed Srila Prabhupada was his Guru. The objective of reaching out to the fallen souls is to help them become Krishna Conscious, but you cannot be situated in Krishna consciousness without a bona fide Guru. Srila Prabhupada is that Guru. We can only be situated at his lotus feet by following what he says - not concocting our own unauthorised Guru replacement systems - otherwise you would be advocating that we could practise Krishna consciousness by disobeying Srila Prabhupada - which of course would be absurd. How can ISKCON members sing every morning in Guru Puja to Srila Prabhupada that: "My only wish is to have my consciousness purified by the words emanating from his lotus mouth". if we simultaneously think that the orders of the spiritual master are insignificant?

The main concern we should have right now is how Srila Prabhupada would react if he heard that people were hijacking his movement, saying he was no longer "living", posing themselves as initiating acaryas and stealing all his disciples? Anyone who really wants the mercy will help Srila Prabhupada to rectify this deviation in his movement.

Srila Sridhara Maharaja & Srila Prabhupada

Room Conversation

 

March 1977

 

Srila Sridhara Maharaja: The central principle of ISKCON philosophy is surrender, otherwise one will not be able to get to know the substance. Whatever you are seeing externally by means of your intelligence -- that is not going to help you to become acquainted with the real substance.

 

Srila Prabhupada: That Dr. Radhakrishnan [author and one-time president of India] was victimized by Western philosophy. He had no real understanding of Indian philosophy............

I have been unable to find this conversation on the vedabase. Can you give some details for verification?

Well, since the Holy Catholic Church owns more property and wealth than any multi-national corporation and is wealthier than any country in the world

 

then I guess that makes them the most bona-fide religion, due to all of their pickins, of excuse me, laxmi scores...um I mean Virgin Mary scores, received when out on scamkirtan.

 

So I guess that makes them the most bonafide religion:

 

CURRENT NUMBER OF RITVIK DISCIPLES

Jesus: Christianity: 1.5 billion disciples

Mohammed: Islam: one billion followers

Brahma/Visnu/Shiva: Hinduism: 800 million

Confucius: Confucianism: 350 million

Buddha: Buddhism: 300 million

Lao Tse, the original hippie: Taoism: 50 million

Izanagi: Shinto: 30 million

Adam and Eve/ Abraham: Judaism: 12 million

Sikhism: 9 million

Jainism: 6 million

Zoroastrianism: 125,000

Plus don't forget: Indigneous religions, Humanitarianism, neo-Indian, shamanism, Anthroposophy, Swedenborgism, Gnosticism, Neoplatism, Scientology, Eckankar, channeling, Wicca, Paganism, occultism, Subud, Freemasonry, Satansism, Huna, Voodoo, Santeria, Sufism, Bhahai, Rosicrucianism, Christian Science, Religious Science, Spiritualism, Theosophy

 

So your gurus had 5,000 and 7,000 disciples in the World Cup of Religions: Congratulations!

 

FINAL SCORE: Christianity wins the year 2006 Religious World Cup. Congratulations, Jesus. Jesus Christ!!!

Ha; what a clever post!

.....Sridhara Maharaj also recalling Srila Prabhupad's request to him saying, "I've brought these rough cut gems to you, now you can polish them?" .........

I've looked on the vedabase and was unable to find the quote you have given above. Can you verify that Srila Prabhupada actually said as you claim?

To atribute quotations to someone without verification can lead to accusations of cheating, agenda pushing etc.

These deluded souls like to play guru, blurring the path for any sincere seekers of the truth, with their mental speculations, pretending to represent divinity

Yes, you are obviously refering to yourself here!

with no intermediary present to confirm or deny their misconception.

It's a license to do whatever you want in the guise of discipleship, but in reality they are afraid to face the committment to a real guru so they live a make believe imaginary life,taking what siksa suits and disregarding the rest.

 

Nonsense. If someone does whatever they want, how can it be discipleship?

We can cheat ourselves and others life after life.

I guess you know all about that.

When we take initiation we are warned by guru of the ten offences to guard against in chanting the holy name.

It pays to regularly revise these instructions or the Name will never become reality.

One of those 10 offences is to disobey the orders of the Spiritual Master.

Srila Prabhupada ordered ritvik "henceforward" [July 9th 1977]. ISKCON is disobeying, that is why they are in a mess.

Couldn't agree more. It's mind boggling how much money and effort these people expend on simply offending Vaisnavas they dont even know (maintaining websites, printing offensive magazines, going to ISKCON festivals and trying to disrupt them) instead of focussing on preaching Krishna's glories. It's really sad.

What I find sad is the fact that ISKCON are continuously cheating the public by presenting them the following

FACT: ISKCON gurus in good standing have fallen.

FACT: The ISKCON GBC has supported even fallen gurus and tried to paper over their falldowns.

FACT: ISKCON gurus have opposed, oppressed and driven out many sincere godbrothers and godsisters.

FACT: ISKCON gurus have usurped and misused money, and diverted other ISKCON resources for their own personal prestige and sense gratification.

FACT: ISKCON gurus have had illicit sexual intercourse with both women and men, and possibly children as well.

FACT: Some ISKCON gurus still in good standing have had such serious personal difficulties that the GBC has been obliged to suspend them from initiating.

FACT: Other ISKCON gurus have snapped back into line only after "narrow misses."

FACT: ISKCON gurus recently led a movement advocating a premature and inappropriate emphasis on rasika-bhakti.

FACT: Some ISKCON devotees have felt obliged to accept a new guru twice or even three times over. [HH Jayadvaita Swami]

 

The plain FACT is - they were not authorized by Srila Prabhupada to be initiating gurus.

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Does that mean I can accept Sandipani muni as my spiritual master because I try to follow his teachings though I cannot formally take diksa? So I can then call Krishna my god brother?

Please enlighten us as to what teachings of Sandapani muni are surviving to this day.

This ritvik-vada is a concocted system of belief that is different from the belief-system taught by Srila Prabhupada.

 

You falsely imagine you have been receiving transcendental knowledge from Prabhupada. All you have really got is a mirror image - the things you think are back the front. You think that by abusing Vaishnavas you have never met, and who Srila Prabhupada said are "pure devotees", you are expressing your great depth of transcendental knowledge but you are simply a fallen soul lost in tamo-guna. Get a life. Get a real spiritual life. Find a real connection with a real Guru.

You are abusing me by claiming that I am abusing Vaishnavas. Of course this is your intentional purpose.

• "...the process for initiation to be followed in the future." (July 11th )

• "...continue to become ritvik and act on my charge." (July 19th )

• "...continue to become ritvik and act on my behalf." (July 31th)

Bhakta Harry, you are addressing a very senior disciple of His Divine Grace. You should not place more store in your mind's ability to juggle words than in Sriman Mahaksa. Humility is required, even more than intelligence.

It is said, vrddhatvam vayasa vina: one may be senior without being advanced in age. Even if one is not old, one gains seniority if he is senior in knowledge. [sB 6.7.33p]

They eventually claim to have taken initiation from Srila Prabhupada. How they do that in his absence and claim it is authentic is just a mystery.

One needs to distinguish between the principle of initiation and the details of its formalisation. Srila Prabhupada never defined diksa in terms of any ritualistic ceremony, but as the receipt of transcendental knowledge that leads to liberation:

"In other words, the spiritual master awakens the sleeping living entity to his original consciousness so that he can worship Lord Visnu. This is the purpose of diksa, or initiation. Initiation means receiving the pure knowledge of spiritual consciousness."

(C.c. Madhya, 9.61, purportt)

 

"Diksa actually means initiating a disciple with transcendental knowledge by which he becomes freed from all material contamination."

(C.c. Madhya, 4.111, purport )

 

"Diksa is the process by which one can awaken his transcendental knowledge and vanquish all reactions caused by sinful activity. A person expert in the study of the revealed scriptures knows this process as diksa."

(C.c. Madhya, 15.108, purport )

Diksa normally involves a ceremony, but it is not absolutely essential, more a formality:

"So anyway, from 1922 to 1933 practically I was not initiated, but I got the impression of preaching Caitanya Mahaprabhu's cult. That I was thinking. And that was the initiation by my Guru Maharaja."

(SP Lecture, 10/12/76, Hyderabad )

 

"Initiation is a formality. If you are serious, that is real initiation. My touch is simply a formality. It is your determination, that is initiation."

(BTG, Search for the Divine )

 

"...disciplic succession does not always mean that one has to be initiated officially. Disciplic succession means to accept the disciplic conclusion."

(SP Letter to Dinesh, 31/10/69 )

 

"The chanting of Hare Krsna is our main business, that is real initiation. And as you are all following my instruction, in that matter, the initiator is already there."

(SP Letter to Tamal Krsna, 19/8/68 )

 

"Well, initiation or no initiation, first thing is knowledge... knowledge. Initiation is formality. Just like you go to a school for knowledge, and admission is formality. That is not very important thing."

(SP Interview, 16/10/76, Chandigarh )

Thus the ceremonial initiation is a formality performed to solidify in the mind of the disciple the serious commitments he has made to the process of diksa. Such commitments include:

• Receiving transcendental knowledge which will purify him of all contamination.

• Maintaining the determination to always follow the order of the diksa guru.

• To begin enthusiastically executing the spiritual master's orders.

Srila Prabhupada has clearly stated that the formality of the ceremony is just that, a formality, not an essential. Furthermore, this formalisation of initiation through a ceremony, itself involves a number of elements:

1.Recommendation by an official of the institution, usually the Temple President.

2.Acceptance by acting ritvik.

3.The participation in a fire yajna.

4.The taking of a spiritual name.

It is only points two and four which necessarily involves a ritvik priest. The other two are usually carried out by the Temple President or some other qualified brahman.

As mentioned previously, nowhere is it ever stated that the guru and disciple must co-exist on the same planet in order for the disciple to receive any element of diksa, such as transcendental knowledge, annihilation of sinful reactions, a fire yajna ceremony and a spiritual name. On the other hand, every element of diksa (knowledge transmission, the yajna, etc.), can be given quite easily without the guru's physical presence. This was demonstrated practically by Srila Prabhupada, as he gave all the elements of diksa through intermediaries such as his disciples and books.

It is the authentic process because it was authorized by Srila Prabhupada.

Who can recognize Guru in the heart of His disciple. The BONAFIDE disciples of A bonafide spiritual master are of the same quality, even though quantity can certainly be measured.

 

In other words, Srila Prabhupada never agrees to be a brass deity confined to a temple, he is never bound by an organization, he is ever present in the heart of the disciple, and continues delivering the sleepers through the via medium of such faithful disciples, within or outside of the preaching apparatus he creates.

 

How many gurus does ISKCON have? 30, 100, I dont really follow.

1 diksa guru - Srila Prabhupada.

But these are folks who are available, folks who will initiate disciples. These folks have been approved by srila prabhupadas governing body.

Yes, approved by the GBC - NOT by Srila Prabhupada.

"One should take initiation from a bona fide spiritual master coming in the disciplic succession, who is authorised by his predecessor spiritual master. This is called diksa -vidhana."

(S.B. 4.8.54, purport)

Since they have not been authorized by Srila Prabhupada how can they be bona-fide?

But guru tattwa still holds sway, the disciple still hears and decides on the basis of such hearing to surrender accordingly. Krsna within does all of this, and if you get a guru who causes you to go away from krsna, this is what krsna does, causes forgetfulness.

Nonsense, as pointed out by Drav dasa. The bona-fide guru brings you TO Krishna not away from him.

Srila Prabhupada: Yes. The genuine guru is God's representative, and he speaks about God and nothing else. [....] A guru's business is to canvass everyone to become a devotee of God. That is the sum and substance of a real guru's business. Indeed, he has no other business. He tells whomever he sees, "Please become God conscious." If he canvasses somehow or other on behalf of God and tries to get everyone to become a devotee of God, he is a genuine guru.

[....]

Reporter: But the bad gurus...

Srila Prabhupada: And what is a "bad" guru?

Reporter: A bad guru just wants some money or some fame.

Srila Prabhupada: Well, if he is bad, how can he become a guru? [Laughter.] How can iron become gold? Actually, a guru cannot be bad, for if someone is bad, he cannot be a guru. You cannot say "bad guru." That is a contradiction. What you have to do is simply try to understand what a genuine guru is. [sSR]

 

I am certain that bonafide gurus exist within the framework of the ISKCON structure, ...........

Siksa gurus, maybe. re: diksa gurus; for your statement to be correct, then you have to explain - how, when & where they were authorized by Srila Prabhupada.

Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada is a great devotee, an uttama adhikari Vaisnava who descended to this world from Goloka.

 

But he is not authorized to give a certificate of approval to Srila Sridhar Maharaja, approving or disapproving of Srila Sridhar Maharaj's ability to be an Acharyya.

How do you know this?

Srila Sridhar Maharaja became an initiating Guru 25 years before Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami went to America, and he initiated hundreds, maybe thousands of devotees before Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami went to the USA.

Was he qualified & authorized to do so?

Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami's success in converting Americans into devotees of Sri Krishna was a great achievement. But Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami was not in a position to give a Guru Certification Certificate to Srila Sridhar Maharaja. Indeed Srila Sridhar Maharaja was an intimate, direct associate of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura, and Srila Sridhar Maharaja derives his authority to initiate disciples directly from Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura

Can you tell us when, how and where Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura authorized H.H.Sridhar Maharaja to initiate disciples? As you claim.

and from Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, who said:

 

yare dekha, tare kaha 'krsna'-upadesa

amara ajnaya guru hana tara ei desa

 

Or in other words, "tell everyone about Krishna and deliver the people of this land (Bharata-desa), and by my command become a Guru".

However, the type of guru, which Lord Caitanya is encouraging everyone to become, is clearly established in the detailed purports given by Srila Prabhupada following this verse:

"That is, one should stay at home, chant the Hare Krsna mantra and preach the instructions of Krsna as they are given in Bhagavad-gita and Srimad-Bhagavatam."

(C.c. Madhya, 7.128, purport)

"One may remain a householder, medical practitioner, an engineer or whatever. It doesn't matter. One only has to follow the instruction of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, chant the Hare Krsna maha-mantra and instruct relatives and friends in the teachings of Bhagavad-gita and Srimad-Bhagavatam [...] It is best not to accept any disciples."

(C.c. Madhya, 7.130, purport)

We can see that these instructions do not demand that the gurus in question first attain any particular level of realisation before they act. The request is immediate. From this it is clear everyone is simply encouraged to preach what they may know, and in so doing become siksa, or instructing, gurus. This is further clarified by the stipulation for the siksa guru to remain in that position, and not then go on to become a diksa guru:

"It is best not to accept any disciples." (C.c. Madhya, 7.130, purport)

To accept disciples is the main business of a diksa guru, whereas a siksa guru simply needs to carry on his duties and preach Krsna Consciousness as best he can. It is clear from Srila Prabhupada's purports that in the above verse Lord Caitanya is actually authorising siksa gurus, not diksa gurus.

Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami factually accepted Srila Sridhar Maharaja as a genuine Guru and told people to go to Srila Sridhar Maharaja to get diksa (initiation).

Can you name one such person?

He sent his own sister, Pishima, to get diksa from Srila Sridhar Maharaja. Pishima had received Harinama from Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura but then Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami told Pishima to take gayatri diksa from Srila Sridhar Maharaja. This happened.

Can you provide any proof of this?

Nothing that any Americans say, nothing they say "Prabhupada says", will change the real and eternal Truth.

Your above statement stinks of racism. Did you also learn this from H.H. BR Sridhara Maharaja?

In this letter Prabhupada wrote a letter to Satsvarupa Maharaja he says that by seeing how the disciples of Sridhar Swami performing Vyasa Puja celebration, the ISKCON devotees could learn how to celebrate Vyasa Puja:

 

“Yesterday, we have all come to Navadvipa-dhama. This place is an establishment of one of my godbrothers. It is a very nice and extensive place, and my godbrother B. R. Sridhara Maharaja has spared one entire house for our stay. He has also agreed to cooperate with our society. We shall observe his birthday celebration, and the brahmacaris shall learn how to celebrate the spiritual master's birthday.” (SP Ltr. Satsvarupa, Oct. 26, 1967)

What is interesting about the above quote is "He has also agreed to cooperate with our society." Is there any evidence to suggest that maharaja's cooperation actualy materialised?

Letter to: Jayapataka,71-02-23

So far until now my Godbrothers have regularly not cooperated with me and by the grace of my Spiritual Master, things are still going ahead.

I am doing so many things which sometimes my Godbrothers out of envy criticize. But I know what is the circumstances how to do it. They do not know it. I know my business. So that is their fault. Their own buddhi business, then simply criticize “How he is acting.’’ Find out some fault.[720504RC.MEX]

Even in the spiritual field, my godbrothers are envious. You see? So as soon as you become successful, there will be many enemies. That is natural. That is the sign of success. [731103RC.DEL]

Just like all my godbrothers. They are dead men. And therefore they are envious of my activities. They have no life. If you want to make easy-going life, showing the Deity and then sleep, then it is a failure movement. [740713MW.LA]

Prabhupada brought some brahmacaris to the temple to show them how to perform the Vyasa Puja celebration. Srila Sridhar Maharaj is a real Guru

I guess you mean diksha guru. Aside from the qualification, Srila Prabhupada also taught that specific authorisation from the predecessor acarya was also essential before anyone could act as a diksa guru:

"On the whole, you may know that he is not a liberated person, and therefore, he cannot initiate any person to Krsna Consciousness. It requires special spiritual benediction from higher authorities."

(SP Letter to Janardana, 26/4/68)

"One should take initiation from a bona fide spiritual master coming in the disciplic succession, who is authorised by his predecessor spiritual master. This is called diksa -vidhana."

(S.B. 4.8.54, purport)

However Srila Prabhupada says that his godbrothers never received any authorization at the time of HDGBS passing, neither were they qualified at any time.

“In the latter days of my Guru Maharaja he was very disgusted. [...] Still he requested his disciples to form a strong Governing body for preaching the cult of Caitanya Mahaprabhu. He never recommended anyone to be acarya of the Gaudiya Math. But Sridhara Maharaja is responsible for disobeying this order of Guru Maharaja, and he and others who are already dead unnecessarily thought that there must be one acarya. If Guru Maharaja could have seen some one who was qualified at that time to be acarya he would have mentioned. Because on the night before he passed away he talked of so many things, but never mentioned an acarya. His idea was acarya was not to be nominated amongst the governing body.He said openly you make a GBC and conduct the mis sion. [...] So Sridhara Maharaja and his two associate gentlemen unauthorisedly selected one acarya and later it proved a failure.[....] Actually amongst my Godbrothers no one is qualified to become acarya. So it is better not to mix with my Godbrothers very intimately because instead of inspiring our students and disciples they may sometimes pollute them."

(Srila Prabhupada Letter, 28th April, 1974)

Wow! That's so judgemental of you guys!!

I only asked a question and never passed any judgement.

Is it true or not? That Vivekanada ate mother cow (in full knowledge).

Nobody doubts the holiness of shri RamKrishna Paramhansa (except of course SP for whom everybody else was a 'rascal'!)

You are wrong on this point also.

"Hriday, the Master’s nephew and companion, actually regarded him [as] a moron" (Sil, 1998).

http://www.strippingthegurus.com/stgsamplechapters/ramakrishna.asp

&

"Kripal demonstrates that the saint's famous ecstatic and visionary experiences were driven by mystico-erotic energies that he neither fully accepted nor understood. The result is a striking new vision of Ramakrishna as a conflicted, homoerotic Tantric mystic that is as complex as it is clear and as sympathetic to the historical Ramakrishna as it is critical of his traditional portraits."

http://www.press.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/hfs.cgi/00/13682.ctl

While it is true that Srila Prabhupada had few nice things to say regarding RamKrishna it is untruthful of you to suggest that he regarded everybody else as a 'rascal'.

Are these the same saffron clad holy people who have spent first half of their lives eating mother cows and drinking wine

The difference here between the example of Vivekananda and the aspiring disciples of Prabhupada is that Prabhupada's disciples were doing the sinful actions in ignorance but once they understood that it was sinful they stopped. Whereas Vivekananda knowingly ate mother cow.

and now have child molestation cases still hanging on their heads and that they are paying the hard earned cash given away for mother cows to cover up for molestations and other lavishes?

It is not clear what you are trying to say. Probably some truth to it though.

Why are we Ganging Up on Dhanurdhara Swami?

http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/10-06/editorials797.htm

BY: GURUKULI DASA

[.........]

Gauri das is now the temple president at the Bhaktivedanta Manor, one of the most prominent temples in ISKCON, he receives a wage of about US$ 60000 a year complete with and enviable pension scheme from Prabhupada’s money for his “service”. He is honored as a senior and respectable member of the community. He has a contract that when he leaves, for two years he will receive the full salary.

Go to vaisnava . com

 

Look for the link "Additional Recordings"

 

click it

Done that & this is what i get .....

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<CENTER>Kirtans, bhajans and prayers sung by various senior devotees</CENTER>

‘Kirtana’ or ‘bhajana’?

In the 1995 Jagannath Rathayatra issue of the Sri Gaudiya Darshan magazine (page 20), Srila Govinda Maharaja explains that the term ‘kirtana’ refers to all congregational chanting, while ‘bhajana’ refers to one’s personal cultivation of Krishna Consciousness. Of course, by implication ‘kirtana’ is also a at the same time a kind of ‘bhajana’ for the Gaudiya Vaishnava devotees...

Sripad Akincan Krishnadas Babaji Maharaj: Sri Premadhama Deva Stotram and the Mahamantra

(Only available in reduced quality MP3 format - 16:09min - 0.73mb)

 

Mahamantra, Premadhama Deva Stotram and Saranagati

(Only available in reduced quality MP3 format - 16:09min - 0.73mb)

 

Prayers and Sri Nama

(Only available in reduced quality MP3 format - 16:09min - 0.73mb)

 

Introduction to Saranagati, Mahamantra and Sri Prema Dhama Stotram

(Only available in reduced quality MP3 format - 16:09min - 0.73mb)

 

Prayers

(Only available in reduced quality MP3 format - 16:09min - 0.73mb)

 

Prayers (II)

(Only available in reduced quality MP3 format - 16:09min - 0.73mb)

 

 

<CENTER> </CENTER>

Download the talk between Srila Prabhupada and Srila Guru Maharaj

Listen to it

I would if it was there & if it was in English. The conversation quoted in a previous post by another anon guest was spoken in Bengali & translated by HHBCS.

Beg forgiveness for the fact that you have been blashpeming a pure devotee, Srila Sridhar Maharaj

I certainly would beg forgiveness if i had been doing as you claim. I'm sure you must be refering to someone else here.

If one realizes Vevekananda, one will be definitely delivered to Supreme Personality of Godhead Lord Ramakrishna.

Is this the same Vevekananda who ate mother cow & drank wine?