Bhakta Harry

Not even a brief reference to Bhava's active homosexuality in those days? If you are going to write the truth, write it all.

 

You are not shy blaming Sridhara Maharaja and Narayana Maharaja for supporting the zonal gurus Prabhupada put in place. The zonal (regional) secretary system introduced by Prabhupada was naturally transformed into the zonal guru system when these zonal secretaries became gurus on Prabhupada's order. In itself, that was not a bad system. Problem was that these people were eventually corrupted by the absolute power, fame, profit, and sense gratification that came with it. The personality cultism previously centered on Prabhupada was now transformed into the zonal "acharya" personality cultism. You think Sridhara M. or Narayana M. could have stopped that? They tried, and that is why they were eventually REJECTED and willified by the ISKCON power elite.

But people like you blame GM devotees for the Iskcon debacle... how brainwashed can you people be?

When, where, & how did Prabhupada order "his zonal secretaries" to become "gurus"?

When I was visiting the ISKCON temple, Burkit Road, Chin High, (Chennai formally Mad rasa) in the early 90's. I returned from book distribution one evening and the pujari (French, forget his name) showed me a business card saying, "Look at this we had a special visitor to the temple today. "

I looked at the card and it read

Name: MAHAVISHNU

Occupation: AVATAR

etc.

Quotes from Prabhupada:

 

"I wish that, in my absence, all my disciples become the bona fide spiritual master.":pray:

 

"They are helping me in this missionary work. At the same time, I shall request them all to become spiritual master. Every one of you should be spiritual master, next.":pray:

 

"Every student is expected to become acharya . . . I have given you sannyasa with the great hope, that, in my absence, you will preach the cult.":pray:

 

"Just adhere yourself to the lotus feet of Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Then you become spiritual master. That's all. So, I hope that all of you men, women, boys, and girls become spiritual master and follow this principle.":pray:

 

" . . . it is distinct that, although he was a conditioned soul in his previous life, there was no impediment of his becoming the spiritual master. This law is applicable not only to the spiritual master, but to every living entity.":pray:

 

"Maybe, by 1975, all of my disciples will be allowed to initiate and increase the number of generations. That is my program.":pray:

 

"By 1975, all of those who have passed all of the above examinations will be specifically empowered to initiate and increase the number of the Krishna conscious population.":pray:

 

" . . . just like I have got my disciples, so, in the future, these many disciples may have many branches of disciplic succession . . .":pray:

 

"I am very much hopeful that my disciples, who are now participating today--even if I die--my movement will not stop. I am very much hopeful. Yes. All these nice boys and girls who have taken so seriously . . . You have to become spiritual masters."

I think that you forgot this

“This is the function of the GBC, to see that one may not be taken away by maya. The GBC should all be the instructor gurus. I am the initiator guru, and you should be the instructor guru by teaching what I am teaching and doing what I am doing. This is not a title, but you must actually come to this platform. This I want.”(Letter to Madhudvisa, 4/8/75)

Authorized to be Guru

 

 

Nov 28, BHUBANESWAR,Orissa, INDIA —

 

Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja Darshan, Bhubaneswar, India - 11-24-89.

 

 

 

Devotee: Maharaja where did you take sannyasa?

 

 

Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja: Vrndavana, yes when that Krishna Balarama temple opened on Rama Navami day, you see, that day. I met Srila Prabhupada first in Vrndavana. I took sannyasa in Vrndavana. That is his causeless mercy on me. I have no qualification. I am not such a worthy person, unworthy fellow but he (Srila Prabhupada) showered his mercy on me. When he whispered to me in this room he told me, “You have to accept disciples and train them. You should have your own men, your own disciples. Otherwise how can you manage?” He (Srila Prabhupada) told me that."

 

So, then people came, they sought initiation from me but, I was not allowed (by the GBC) to accept disciples at that time and some devotees felt disappointed and left and went to the Gaudiya Math and accepted a spiritual master from there. So I told in GBC that Prabhupada had told me this thing (to initiate my own men). They said, “What is proof ?” I then said, “Proof is myself, Srila Prabhupada told me in my ear. It’s not recorded on a machine, but recorded deep in my heart.” But in his first letter to me, Prabhupada has also mentioned this same thing. You have seen that first letter?

 

Disciple: We went through the letter books, its there.

 

Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja: I have those books, but I don’t know?. . . . but I have that letter, first letter. In that letter Prabhupada mentioned, “Under your leadership, under your leadership, under your leadership. . .” Three times he has mentioned this thing that this Bhubaneswar will be developed like that. I showed that letter in the GBC. I said, “This is the letter. If I won’t be a leader, then how can I do it?” Then they allowed and I told them emphatically, “If you may not allow, but I must carry out the order of my spiritual master, I must do it.” They were frightened. I was so strong. Then they finally allowed me.

Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja: Yes, that is the process. Because I am obeying the orders of my spiritual master. I am collecting or training men for my spiritual master’s mission, do you understand? As my spiritual master (Srila Prabhupada) told me, “You must have your own disciples. You must train them, you must have your own men, otherwise how will you manage?” Why did he tell such thing? So disciples, as my disciple they are grand disciple of Prabhupada, do you understand? But I am collecting men for my spiritual master to fulfill his desire in his mission. So I say, this is quite logical saying, “I am accepting for my spiritual master. You are all his men, and my spiritual master is sending you to me, to get training from me. Under my guidance you should work. That is the process. Do you understand? This is the vaisnava philosophy and this is the humble way because vaisnava is humble.

"They misunderstand me. Unless it is there from me in writing, there are so many things that "Prabhupada said." (Letter, Omkara, 75-09-02)

I agree with Ksamabiddhi; this is just old gossip, and this is not the forum for it. Gauri das made this assertion:

 

I was headmaster of the gurukula in Honolulu, Hawaii from 1978-84, and corporal punishment was not part of our disciplinary plan, nor was it so in Los Angeles gurukula, as far as I could see. I taught for two or three years at the Bhaktivedanta Village gurukula in California after that, and corporal punishment was not part of the porgram there, either. When a teacher did physically punish a kid, it caused outrage in the community.

 

Moreover, at a headmasters' conference in 1981, Jagadish, then the GBC education minister and much reviled of late, told us all in no uncertain terms that we were not to strike or otherwise physically punish the children. He conceded that some slapping or other coporal punishment would no doubt be inflicted from time to time, but he made it clear that this was to be an anomaly. The official default was no corporal punishment. So Gauri das' claim that he was simply following some policy that prescribed hitting kids is simply nonsense.

Furthermore Gauri dasa wasn't in the Vrndavana Gurukula where the alleged offences took place until about 1994!

Get this, he was alleged to have been beating the kids from about 1994 - 2002. He doesn't deny these allegations but instead tells us

"corporal punishment was part of the disciplinary plans of ISKCON in the 1970s and ’80s in schools in India and the US.”

Ok, but why was he still beating the hell out of them until the year 2002?

What makes this situation so farsical is that he is being presented to the Hindus & the UK government as the spiritual head of the proposed school. Is this typical ISKCON or what? Maybe they will make him a guru now also?

The Hindus are just finding out about his past behaviour and are justifiably concerned.

From the ritvik camp we hear the insistence of the reality that since Srila Prabhupada is fully accessable through his instructions. I appreciate this as truth. That said it does raise the question of why anyone needs to approach a self-appointed ritvik priest to be granted a connection to Srila Prabhupada. I believe that connection is established by hearing his instructions which he kindly left with us and following them. It seems safer to me to just ask the Lord in heart to establish a connection for us with His devotee. Surely he will according to our sincerity.

I agree with some of your points. The 'authorized' ritvik is a priest who performs the ceremony on behalf of the initiator.

Srila Prabhupada left us specific instructions to continue with this system. May I remind you that ISKCON was founded to implement Srila Prabhupada's instructions, not what you think or believe. In other words unless you can substanciate what you think or believe with quotes from Srila Prabhupada. Then I'm sorry to say that these beliefs & thoughts of yours have little relevance to the discussion.

I don't read posts from bhakta harry. he is set on his opinion and doesnot even care to listen to others. Plus he spits venom on a regular basis, which makes interacting with him worse then speaking to a dead stone. A dead stone at least doesn't spit poison.

Hell, babe, you seem to me, to be very good at doing the very thing you accuse others of doing.

Bhakta Harry,

 

How many times does something have to be repeated to you before you 'attempt' to understand?

 

Anyways, let me try one more time that others have already tried ... where is the proof that Srila BhaktiSidhanta authorized Srila Prabhupada to be initiating Guru?

Srila Prabhupada's word is the proof. Do you have a problem with that?

All this just sounds so fake and external.

Why isn't it initiation when some brahmana meets a person on the street and teaches him the maha mantra?

Why is it only initiation when some Swami performs a formal ceremony on the temple room?How does some Swami take on the sins of a "disciple" simply by asking him to make vows and chant the Holy Name?

 

 

and one of the most amazing things about this is tha the "swami" actually believes it and would hold that he is 'divinely directed' by The Lord in those efforts. Lord Ramachandra had a similar 'out of body' experience with His guru where they experienced the necessity of The Lord having an impersonal guru, such that he could be covered over enough to 'lord it over' The Supreme Lord. the alignment of the impersonal elements is all a part of a far greater Plan that is currently being acted out in this theater.

 

 

 

 

 

Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: Srimad Bhagavatam 2.7.37

 

deva-dvisham nigama-vartmani nishthitanam

 

purbhir mayena vihitabhir adrisya-turbhih

 

lokan ghnatam mati-vimoham atipralobham

 

vesham vidhaya bahu bhashyata aupadharmyam

 

SYNONYMS

 

deva-dvisham -- of those who were envious of the devotees of the Lord; nigama -- the Vedas; vartmani -- on the path of; nishthitanam -- of the well situated; purbhih -- by rockets; mayena -- made by the great scientist Maya; vihitabhih -- made by; adrisya-turbhih -- unseen in the sky; lokan -- the different planets; ghnatam -- of the killers; mati-vimoham -- bewilderment of the mind; atipralobham -- very attractive; vesham -- dress; vidhaya -- having done so; bahu bhashyate -- will talk very much; aupadharmyam -- subreligious principles.

 

TRANSLATION

 

When the atheists, after being well versed in the Vedic scientific knowledge, annihilate inhabitants of different planets, flying unseen in the sky on well-built rockets prepared by the great scientist Maya, the Lord will bewilder their minds by dressing Himself attractively as Buddha and will preach on subreligious principles.

 

 

New Vrndaban is 'non-different' from Vrndaban because The Supreme Lord

has appeared there as A White Incarnation. we defy anyone in this movement to disprove this assertion by scripture. we await responses.

Srila Prabhupada says that diksa/initiation is a process. This begins with the reception of transcendental knowledge.

"This is the process of initiation. The disciple must admit that he will no longer commit sinful activity [...] He promises to execute the order of the spiritual master. Then, the spiritual master takes care of him and elevates him to spiritual emancipation." (C.c. Madhya, 24.256 )

 

"Diksa is the process by which one can awaken his transcendental knowledge and vanquish all reactions caused by sinful activity. A person expert in the study of the revealed scriptures knows this process as diksa."

(C.c. Madhya, 15.108, purport)

 

And every picture can be taken completely out of context. Do you know the context of the picture? no. So you speculated, right? yes.

Please enlighten us great sage! Explain why His Holiness is surrounded by beautiful young girls and is obviously enjoying in their company. Everywhere he goes he has the same following, is it not?

Please note that i am not saying this out of envy but simply making a point.

The ritviks should simply be ignored. According to their concocted philosophy, some as exalted as H.H Gour Govinda Swami is also fallen because he initiated disciples, which according to them is a violation of Srila Prabhuapada's instructions.

Can you prove otherwise? Where is the proof that Srila Prabhupada authorized H.H Gour Govinda Swami to be initiating guru? It defies his signed instructions on this matter.

They seem to think that nobody but themselves (ritviks) are devotees of Krsna. Everybody else is misguided.

This may or may not be true. Seems a pathetic line of argumentation to me:pray:

Agreed. Just curious, if Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja were the one being glorified instead of Sripad Indradumna Maharaja, would we even be having this discussion? I mean, despite the GBC's "rubber stamp approval", most devotees here (non-ritvik) accept him as a pure devotee and qualified to initiate, and that he would have been an initiating Guru with or without the GBC's approval.

Without specific authorization from Srila Prabhupada no one should be initiating within ISKCON. As previously posted ....

"One should take initiation from a bona fide spiritual master coming in the disciplic succession, who is authorised by his predecessor spiritual master. This is called diksa-vidhana." (S.B. 4.8.54, purport)

"Try to understand. Don't go very speedily. A guru can become guru when he is ordered by his guru. That's all. Otherwise nobody can become guru."

(SP Bg. Lecture, 28/10/75)

Quite right. The ritviks are so much into fault-finding. They lump everyone in Iskcon together, "guilt by association." They don't want to give credit that Srila Prabhupada created even one pure devotee, except for perhaps Jayananda Prabhu. How are new devotees supposed to have faith in the process of sadhana bhakti if ritviks are trashing everyone who has been practicing Krsna Consciousness for 30 or 40 years?

He may have created millions of pure devotees - but he never gave authorization to any, to be diksa/initiating gurus.

ed

Since JNdas has enter the thread it is worthy of continuing.

 

Yes, Iagree with your point. This is why I consider the GBC to be a mundane commitee. They can't answer this question. The same with these bothersome ritviks who have seen fit to appoint their own priests to act on Prabhupada's behalf. Is there a letter with their names on it saying that they are authorized ritvik priests? If not why are they acting in that capacity? They make the same mistake as the GBC in this regard. Flipside of the same coin.

Good point, however not all ritvik groups do this. IRM for example.

IMO both should stop their ceremonial nonsense and wait for the Lord to reveal His devotee. This is the real parampara.

This is your opinion and i respect your right to hold that view. However we are supposed to be following the directions of Srila Prabhupada and since he has not informed us of any devotee to wait for, we are not waiting!

Krsna shows the sincere aspirant His devotee and that devotee shows the aspirant Krsna. It really is that simple. But of course if one is really faithless or an atheist dressed as a devotee then he will think that unless he acts in some way by setting up a mundane system to reveal Krsna's devotee the whole thing will fall apart.

Again this is your speculations.

Both the GBC and the ritviks are disturbing elements in the promotion of Krsna consciousness in this regard.

Yes, some so-called ritvik followers are not much different than the GBC in that they fall victim to their own speculations, just like you do actually!

As to the preacher in question(or anyone) I don't need for him to be a "perfect guru" before I can appreciate the good that he is doing. 'Give credit where credit is due' is a motto I find great meaning in.

Yes, but if someone is doing the wrong thing, no mater how nicely he perform that service, it is still bogus.

As far as his giving up formal initiations I don't see what the big deal is as long as he continues spreading the Holy Name and other preaching activities. To me that is where the potency is. IMO GV's have really blown this whole Harinama formal initiation thing WAY out of proprotion and it has resulted in sooooo very much confusion.

More of your own peculiar brand of what-ever. As mentioned previously ISKCON was founded to follow the opinion of Srila Prabhupada and that is how it should continue.

At least Indradyumna Maharaja has something to show people like you, who simply sit on your cans and complain about "unauthorized" gurus - thousands of inspired devotees all over the world, serving Krsna and chanting His Holy Name often under very difficult circumstances.

 

You bitter prunes have nothing real to show - just a lot of hot air.

As I've said before babe, you really want to lo:eek: ok in the mirror someday. Cos you are doing the same thing, you accuse others of doing.

Neither you or I really knows what it is to be a mahabhagavat devotee. Stop pretending. You are just taking a quote here and there and misappropriating them while ignoring other more quotes that are direct to the issue at hand but are in opposition to your own opinions.

 

But you are free to do that if you wish. For me this whole ritvik debate is dead although it does seem to try to rise from it's own grave from time to time. My complaint with you is your total lack of common manners what to speak of vaisnava ettiqute. Some nice things get said about one nice devotee of Krsna and you come barging in spitting venom and pissing on the whole thing.

 

Please pack up your rubber tipped arrows and plastic swords Oh, great ritvik warrior, and find those that want to hear what you have to say. You could start a ritvik thread right on this forum and those that want to discuss it could join you instead of ruining this thread.

 

I just want to add this is my last post on this thread.

All your verbosity proves nothing. My point remains: that this so-called "nice devotee" was not authorized by Srila Prabhupada to be an initiating guru. It is possible to preach without disobeying the directions of Srila Prabhupada, that is the preaching process followed by genuine nice devotees.<!--EndFragment-->

710718RC.DET Conversations

Prabhupada: Yes. All of them will take over. These students, who are initiated from me, all of them will act as I am doing. Just like I have got many Godbrothers, they are all acting. Similarly, all these disciples which I am making, initiating, they are being trained to become future spiritual masters.

 

Something that is being conveniently forgotten is that when Srila Prabhupada was in His last days He ordered Srila Narayana Maharaja to continue helping His disciples and I believe that this meant getting them to the stage of competence with the help of Srila Narayana Maharaja.

 

There was Srila Sridhar Maharaja as well of course but He passed away before that

 

Obviously I already know that the "respected" ritvik person and unfortunately many "but not all" Iskcon devotees will talk lots of offensive prajalpa about this matter.......and not only about this matter,but in general about Srila Narayana Maharaja : - (

 

and in this way not only Iskcon "not all Iskcon" but as far as I know all "ritviks"

are making the same offenses to pure devotees and there should be not much difference between the two groups when it comes to those offensive individuals spiritual futures.

 

YEP! as they would say....hell waits for those who are offensive to the Lords pure devotees and that is something Lord Krishna Him self says.

 

so lets watch our inner and external behaviour to avoid Krishna being displeased.......

Every picture tells a story. I guess the GBC will be thankful that at least he's not gay, but should a sannyasi be enjoying in the company of beautiful young girls?

Is this the standard in the Gaudiya maths also? Does Narayan Maharaj also enjoy like this?

Please note that I am not asking this out of envy but to make a point.

that your interpretation of Prabhupada's instructions is the only proper and correct way of understanding them

Where have i made this claim?

I think you are getting a bit bewildered here, don't you think?

This is the thread ....

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by Kulapavana

........what is your proof of pleasing your guru? all you have is bombastic claims.

“Big, big monkey, big, big belly; Ceylon jumping — melancholy!” - Prabhupada

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

<!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->

What claims have I made in this regard?

Originally Posted by Bhakta Harry

With regards to the Detroit room conversation, had Srila Prabhupada said in 1971 that none of his disciples would ever be diksa gurus, the neophyte devotees around him may have been discouraged and left. (...)

 

 

this is YOUR dubious interpretation of Prabhupada's words and intent.

You haven't explained anything, rather you have just made another statement. So how am i to learn from you?

so, where is it in writing that Prabhupada required specifically a written authorization for each one of his disciples to initiate disciples??

Since he didn't want his disciples to be initiating gurus there is no such authorization.

I am the initiator guru, and you should be the instructor guru by teaching what I am teaching and doing what I am doing. This is not a title, but you must actually come to this platform. This I want. [75.04.08]

 

and where is a written authorization of the ritvik system by Prabhupada?

July 9th 1977 document sent out to all temples & GBC's. & subsequent written instructions.

........what is your proof of pleasing your guru? all you have is bombastic claims.

 

“Big, big monkey, big, big belly; Ceylon jumping — melancholy!” - Prabhupada

What claims have I made in this regard?

Can Theist & Kulapavana answer this question?

Srila Prabhupada is not just anybody but is a mahabhagavata devotee of the Lord. Is his word not good enough for you?

LOL! just look in the mirror... talking about dubious interpretations of Prabhupada's words.

Please explain your statement.

and as I mentioned earlier, there is no physical proof of that specific order. anybody can say that they were ordered to be guru.

Srila Prabhupada is not just anybody but is a mahabhagavata devotee of the Lord. Is his word not good enough for you?

if you demand physical proof, extend that demand to your guru as well.

In relation to ISKCON and his disciples, Srila Prabhupada was always careful to put important instructions in writing.

"They misunderstand me. Unless it is there from me in writing, there are so many things that "Prabhupada said." (Letter, Omkara, 75-09-02)

Srila Bhaktisiddanta never gave a similar instruction, so why should we expect physical proof from Srila Prabhupada, on just your say so?

and if you simply accept his word on faith, be prepared to do the same for others - or at least understand that some people have faith in the ordination of their guru by Srila Prabhupada from within.

Yes, but when this so-called ordination conflicts with signed documentation from Srila Prabhupada it seems sensible to question the depth of reality surrounding this 'ordination'.

As mention previously the GBC also doesn't accept this "ordination of their guru by Srila Prabhupada from within" since they have a voting approval system which is how Indradyumna got his diksa guru status.

YOU are like that Indian man demanding answers from devotees like Indradyumna, not me. and the same answer Prabhupada gave him applies here as well. a requirement to produce some document to prove such guru authorization is BOGUS. that authorization takes place on a mystical level, the level of the heart.

Sorry to disagree and make you more angry than you already are prabhu, but can you back up your above conclusions with any quotes from Srila Prabhupada? My conclusion that there must be authorization from Srila Prabhupada is fully supported by his teachings. ....

"One should take initiation from a bona fide spiritual master coming in the disciplic succession, who is authorised by his predecessor spiritual master. This is called diksa -vidhana."

(S.B. 4.8.54, purport)

Furthermore the GBC don't accept this conclusion of yours either since they have a voting system which authorizes the gurus.

Also how are we to know who got the real 'mystical level authorization'? Srila Prabhupada solves this dilema by stating ...

"They misunderstand me. Unless it is there from me in writing, there are so many things that "Prabhupada said." (Letter, Omkara, 75-09-02)

a real disciple will be inspired by Krsna to accept a particular person as his guru.

my point is that it could also be maya.

dont get between them, as it is not your place.

Thank-you for the advice.

I see many young devotees inspired by Krsna to take initiation from devotees like Indradyumna Maharaja and I am happy for them. they have no doubt he is qualified ENOUGH to be THEIR guru. who the heck are you to tell them otherwise?

I am sure they do think he is qualified, my point is that he is not authorized by Srila Prabhupada to be an initiating guru.

710718RC.DET Conversations

Prabhupada: Yes. All of them will take over. These students, who are initiated from me, all of them will act as I am doing. Just like I have got many Godbrothers, they are all acting. Similarly, all these disciples which I am making, initiating, they are being trained to become future spiritual masters.

With regards to the Detroit room conversation, had Srila Prabhupada said in 1971 that none of his disciples would ever be diksa gurus, the neophyte devotees around him may have been discouraged and left. We can see from the letters that Srila Prabhupada had to write, that some of his disciples were extremely ambitious, trying to initiate after having been in the movement for just a few years; and that Srila Prabhupada was forced to check their ambition by simply encouraging them to at least wait. At that point it is unlikely they had fully grasped just how elevated the diksa guru actually needs to be. Even now those that are left are having a hard time understanding. Even now, many years later, many of Srila Prabhupada's original followers still labour under the misconception that anyone can be a diksa guru as long as he has been following his initiation vows for the preceding five years. We can also see that in the same room conversation Srila Prabhupada is also endorsing the activities of his god-brothers, even though he said that none of them were 'qualified to be acarya' and one year later he says that they were all 'dead men' and envious. So it is clear here that Srila Prabhupada is just giving general encouragement, since he emphasises the following points:

• That his grhastha disciples are just as qualified as his sannyasis.

• That ALL of his disciples are 'competent' to become diksa gurus.

• That anyone who is simply 'initiated' is automatically 'competent' to become a diksa guru.

• That even at that time - 1971- they were ALL already qualified to become fully-fledged diksa gurus - 'NOW, they're competent'.

Otherwise we have to seriously accept that Srila Prabhupada is stating that:

-anyone just by being initiated is qualified and authorised to become a diksa guru. Thus if the GBC & followers want to take this quote literally then all of Srila Prabhupada's 10,000 disciples, men and women, should all be free regardless of their spiritual standing, to initiate without the need for the elaborate voting and 'no objection' arrangements that occur at present. Since as Srila Prabhupada states, they are 'all competent'. He does not say that they still need to be qualified. Though he does say that his disciples are being "trained to become future spiritual masters", his very next words are: "NOW, they're competent".

- Please remember that as little as one year later Srila Prabhupada had to suspend the whole GBC for gross unauthorised behaviour. Thus we can hardly accept that Srila Prabhupada had such bad judgement that in 1971 he was stating that ALL of his disciples were there and then qualified to be Diksa Gurus even though one year later his leading men were not even able to behave as disciples.

• The encouragement given in Detroit was never repeated to the entire movement, nor written into any GBC resolution or directive or published book. Just one mention in a conversation to a one-off visitor to a temple in 1971, and which was not in any case uncovered until twenty years after Srila Prabhupada's departure.

720518AR.LA Lectures

So we have got this message from Krsna, from Caitanya Mahaprabhu, from the six Gosvamis, later on, Bhaktivinoda Thakura, Bhaktisiddhanta Thakura. And we are trying our bit also to distribute this knowledge. Now, tenth, eleventh, twelfth... My Guru Maharaja is tenth from Caitanya Mahaprabhu, I am eleventh, you are the twelfth. So distribute this knowledge.

This quote clearly mentions that Srila Prabhupada's disciples are already the twelfth - 'you ARE the twelfth'. Thus this is not some authorisation for them to become diksa gurus in the future, but merely a statement that they are already carrying on the message of the parampara.

68-12-03 Letter: Hamsaduta

Those possessing the title of Bhaktivedanta will be allowed to initiate disciples. Maybe by 1975, all of my disciples will be allowed to initiate and increase the numbers of the generations. That is my program.

 

However a close look at the letter reveals that these exams were not intended to certify ‘initiating gurus’ but simply to improve the philosophical understanding of the devotees, who are supposed to be Brahmins.

In this letter to ‘Hamsaduta’ the word ‘initiate’ is actually mentioned. Srila Prabhupada is actually talking about them initiating in his own PRESENCE - ‘By 1975’ - so he was only talking about them acting as ritviks, since according to Srila Prabhupada, one cannot be an initiating guru in the presence of the Spiritual master.

the sarasvata parampara will continue despite the ritvik's wailing. we are not Sikhs. we always have living gurus, not just Guru Nanak. Prabhupada makes it clear in the quotes above. you do not want to accept it out of envy and ignorance. "just because some of the gurus are unqualified, all of them are unqualified" - these are Prabhupada's words too.

We do not doubt Srila Prabhupada's words. It is your dubious interpretation of those words which is the issue here.