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anadi

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Posts posted by anadi


  1.  

    You said that Krsna must show His mercy if one is fortunate, because He said that. Then it is clearly not mercy - but simply a business contract, barter, give me this and I'll give you that. The error is in assuming that one 'must be' fortunate before receiving mercy - it is the mercy that makes him fortunate. It is not cause and effect - mercy has no rational cause; otherwise there is no meaning to the word. Krpa has no cause other than devotion, love, compassion and that cannot be quantiified or legislated into a cause-effect equation. By Krsna's mercy one gets guru .........

     

    <CENTER>
    kRSNa yadi kRpA kare kona bhAgyavAne

    guru-antaryAmi-rUpe zikhAya Apane

    </CENTER>

    kRSNa--Lord KRSNa;
    yadi--if;
    kRpA kare--shows His mercy; kona bhAgyavAne--to some fortunate person; guru--of the spiritual master; antaryAmi--of the Supersoul; rUpe--in the form; zikhAya--teaches; Apane--personally.

     

     

    "KRSNa is situated in everyone's heart as the caitya-guru, the spiritual master within. When He is kind to some fortunate conditioned soul, He personally gives him lessons so he can progress in devotional service, instructing the person as the Supersoul within and the spiritual master without.

     

     

     

     

     

    I was fortunate to win the lottery. I was very unfortunate before, living in a latrine.

     

    Krsna says He rewards all accordingly, and this is justice. Mercy is beyond justice.

     

    You tried to deny the words "Krsna-Krpa" in Madhya 22.47 by making it mechanical:

     

    Most dear qHari, dandavat pranam,

     

    regarding your previous staments Krishna says quite clearly(Bg 2.62-64);

     

    While contemplating the objects of the senses, a person develops attachment for them, and from such attachment lust develops, and from lust anger arises.

    From anger, complete delusion arises, and from delusion bewilderment of memory. When memory is bewildered, intelligence is lost, and when intelligence is lost one falls down again into the material pool.

    But tu one who has become free vimuktaiḥ (from) material attachments rāga, envy dveṣa , and has und control ātma-vaśyaiḥ the senses indriyaiḥ acted upon caran material sense objects viṣayān and follows regulated principles related to the soul vidheya-ātmā attains adhigacchati the mercy of the Lord prasādam

    rāga-dveṣa-vimuktais tuviṣayān indriyaiś caran |

    ātma-vaśyair vidheyātmā prasādamadhigacchati ||

    As you can see the rules of attaining the mercy of the Lord are deliniated by Krishna Himself.

    The causeless mercy of the Lord is not the rule, but the exception.


  2.  

    Sukrti Gained by Krsna's Mercy ... not the rolling of dice<HR align=center width="100%" color=white noShade SIZE=1>

     

     

     

    Lord Caitanya explains the root cause of sukrti directly in CC Antya 16.100:

     

     

     

    ‘sukRti'-zabde kahe ‘kRSNa-kRpA-hetu puNya'

     

     

     

    sei yAGra haya, ‘phelA' pAya sei dhanya"

     

     

     

    sukRti--sukRti (pious activities); zabde--the word; kahe--is to be understood; kRSNa-kRpA--the mercy of KRSNa; hetu--because of; puNya--pious activities; sei--he; yAGra--of whom; haya--there is; phelA--the remnants of food; pAya--gets; sei--he; dhanya--very glorious.

    "The word ‘sukRti' refers to pious activities performed by the mercy of KRSNa. One who is fortunate enough to obtain such mercy receives the remnants of the Lord's food and thus becomes glorious."

     

    <FONT face=Arial>

    Dear qHari, Dandavat pranam,

    One has to be fortunate to obtain such mercy, and this is haituki kripa, kripa that has a cause.

    <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com><st1:place w:st=Krishna</st1:place> can also give His mercy without a cause, but this is not the rule. One has to do something to attain His mercy.

    [color=black>

    <FONT]<font size=" /><st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> can also give His mercy without a cause, but this is not the rule. One has to do something to attain His mercy.

    <FONT face=Arial>

    <FONT color=black><FONT face=Tahoma><FONT color=#000000>Śrī <FONT color=#606420>Caitanya <FONT color=#000000>Mahāprabhu gave this <FONT face=Arial>meaning to the word sukriti in the context of eating the same that <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> touched with His lips.

    <FONT face=Arial>

    <FONT face=Arial>Please see the context:

    <FONT face=Arial>

    <FONT color=black><FONT face=Tahoma><FONT color=seagreen>Lord Caitanya said to the doorman, "You are My friend. Please show Me where the Lord of My heart is." After the Lord said this, they both went to the place known as Jagamohana, where everyone views Lord Jagannātha.

    <FONT color=black><FONT face=Tahoma><FONT color=seagreen>

    <FONT color=black><FONT face=Tahoma><FONT color=#000000><FONT color=seagreen>Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu stayed behind the huge column called the Garuḍa-stambha and looked upon Lord Jagannātha, but as He looked He saw that Lord Jagannātha had become Lord Kṛṣṇa, with His flute to His mouth.

    <FONT face=Arial><FONT color=seagreen>

    <FONT color=black><FONT face=Tahoma><FONT color=seagreen>The offering of food known as gopāla-vallabha-bhoga was then given to Lord Jagannātha, and ārati was performed with the sound of the conch and the ringing of bells.

    <FONT color=black><FONT face=Tahoma><FONT color=seagreen>

    <FONT color=black><FONT face=Tahoma><FONT color=seagreen>When the ārati finished, the prasādam was taken out, and the servants of Lord Jagannātha came to offer some to Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu

    <FONT color=black><FONT face=Tahoma><FONT color=seagreen>

    <FONT color=black><FONT face=Tahoma><FONT color=seagreen>The servants of Lord Jagannātha first garlanded Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu and then offered Him Lord Jagannātha's prasādam. The prasādam was so nice that its aroma alone, to say nothing of its taste, would drive the mind mad.

    <FONT color=black><FONT face=Tahoma><FONT color=seagreen>

    <FONT color=black><FONT face=Tahoma><FONT color=seagreen>The prasādam was made of very valuable ingredients. Therefore the servant wanted to feed Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu a portion of it.

    <FONT color=black><FONT face=Tahoma><FONT color=seagreen>

    <FONT color=black><FONT face=Tahoma><FONT color=#000000><FONT color=seagreen>Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu tasted a portion of the prasādam. Govinda took the rest and bound it in the end of his wrapper.

    <FONT color=black><FONT face=Tahoma><FONT color=seagreen>

    <FONT color=black><FONT face=Tahoma><FONT color=seagreen>To Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu the prasādam tasted millions upon millions of times better than nectar, and thus He was fully satisfied. The hair all over His body stood on end, and incessant tears flowed from His eyes.

    <FONT color=black><FONT face=Tahoma><FONT color=seagreen>

    <FONT color=black><FONT face=Tahoma><FONT color=#000000><FONT color=seagreen>Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu considered, "Where has such a taste in this prasādam come from? Certainly it is due to its having been touched by the nectar of Kṛṣṇa's lips."

    <FONT face=Tahoma color=seagreen>

    <FONT face=Tahoma><FONT color=seagreen>Understanding this, Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu felt an emotion of ecstatic love for Kṛṣṇa, but upon seeing the servants of Lord Jagannātha, He restrained Himself.

    <FONT face=Tahoma color=seagreen>

    <FONT face=Tahoma><FONT color=seagreen>The Lord said again and again, "Only by great fortune may one come by a particle of the remnants of food offered to the Lord."The servants of the Jagannātha temple inquired, "What is the meaning of this?"

    <FONT face=Tahoma color=seagreen>

    <FONT face=Tahoma><FONT color=seagreen>Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu replied, "These are remnants of food that Kṛṣṇa has eaten and thus turned to nectar with His lips. It surpasses heavenly nectar, and even such demigods as Lord Brahmā find it difficult to obtain.

    <FONT face=Arial color=seagreen>

    <FONT face=Tahoma><FONT color=seagreen>"Remnants left by Kṛṣṇa are called phelā. Anyone who obtains even a small portion must be considered very fortunate.

    <FONT face=Tahoma color=seagreen>

    <FONT face=Tahoma><FONT color=seagreen>"One who is only ordinarily fortunate cannot obtain such mercy. Only persons who have the full mercy of Kṛṣṇa can receive such remnants.

    <FONT face=Tahoma color=seagreen>

    <FONT face=Tahoma><FONT color=seagreen>"The word 'sukṛti' refers to pious activities performed by the mercy of Kṛṣṇa. One who is fortunate enough to obtain such mercy receives the remnants of the Lord's food and thus becomes glorious."

    <FONT color=#000000><FONT color=#000000><FONT color=#606420><FONT color=#000000><FONT color=#000000><FONT color=#606420><FONT color=#000000><FONT color=#000000><FONT color=#000000><FONT color=#000000><FONT color=#606420><FONT color=#000000><FONT color=#606420><FONT color=#000000><FONT color=#000000><FONT color=#000000><FONT color=#000000><FONT color=#000000><FONT color=#000000><FONT color=#606420><FONT color=#000000><FONT color=#000000><FONT color=#000000><FONT color=#606420><FONT color=#000000><FONT color=#000000><FONT color=#000000><FONT color=#000000><FONT color=#000000><FONT color=#000000><FONT color=#000000><FONT color=#000000><FONT color=#000000><FONT color=#000000><FONT color=#000000><FONT color=#000000><FONT color=#000000><FONT color=#000000><FONT color=#000000><FONT color=#606420><FONT color=#000000><FONT color=#000000><FONT color=#606420><FONT color=black><FONT face=Tahoma>

    <FONT color=black><FONT face=Tahoma>As you can see here it is spoken of the special mercy of <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> of tasting the remanants of the Lord.

    <FONT color=black><FONT face=Tahoma>In this connection the remnants of the Lord, Sriman Mahaprabhu is speaking of, is very special. Only very few highly elevated personalities upon Sri Krishna mercy has downed can taste such prasad.<FONT color=#333333><FONT face=Arial>


  3.  

    SB 10.60.53

     

    <CENTER>
    mAM prApya mAniny apavarga-sampadaM

    vAJchanti ye sampada eva tat-patim

    te
    manda-bhAgA
    niraye 'pi ye nRNAM

    mAtrAtmakatvAt nirayaH su-saGgamaH

    </CENTER>

    mAm--Myself; prApya--obtaining; mAnini--O reservoir of love; apavarga--of liberation; sampadam--the treasure; vAJchanti--they desire; ye--who; sampadaH--(material) treasures; eva--only; tat--of such; patim--the master; te--they;
    manda-bhAgAH
    --less fortunate; niraye--in hell; api--even; ye--which; nRNAm--for persons; mAtrA-AtmakatvAt--because they are absorbed in sense gratification; nirayaH--hell; su-saGgamaH--appropriate.

     

    O supreme reservoir of love, unfortunate are they who even after obtaining Me, the Lord of both liberation and material riches, hanker only for material treasures. These worldly gains can be found even in hell. Since such persons are obsessed with sense gratification, hell is a fitting place for them.

     

     

     

     

     

    Dear qHari, Dandavat pranam,

    <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> spoke about people whose pious activities are deemed for sens enjoyment, and that he has to bless (reward) them accordingly:

    Although I have the power to award spiritual liberation, lusty persons worship Me with penance and vows in order to get My blessings for their mundane family life. Such persons are bewildered by My illusory energy.

    And Rukmini rerplied:

    O supreme reservoir of love, unfortunate are they who even after obtaining Me, the Lord of both liberation and material riches, hanker only for material treasures. These worldly gains can be found even in hell. Since such persons are obsessed with sense gratification, hell is a fitting place for them.

    This is has nothing to do with the fortune of bhakti sukriti.

     


  4.  

    One needs to be more than to be fortunate, even more than maha-bhaga greatly fortunate, as we see vividly on another staircase to heaven in Srimad-Bhagavatam 9.10.26-27:

     

    <CENTER>
    hA hatAH sma vayaM nAtha

    loka-rAvaNa rAvaNa

    kaM yAyAc charaNaM laGkA

    tvad-vihInA parArditA

    </CENTER>

    hA--alas; hatAH--killed; sma--in the past; vayam--all of us; nAtha--O protector; loka-rAvaNa--O husband, who created the crying of so many other people; rAvaNa--O RAvaNa, one who can cause crying of others; kam--unto whom; yAyAt--will go; zaraNam--shelter; laGkA--the state of LaGkA; tvat-vihInA--being bereft of your good self; para-arditA--being defeated by the enemies.

     

    O my lord, O master! You epitomized trouble for others, and therefore you were called RAvaNa. But now that you have been defeated, we also are defeated, for without you the state of LaGkA has been conquered by the enemy. To whom will it go for shelter?

     

     

     

    <CENTER>
    na vai veda
    mahA-bhAga

    bhavAn kAma-vazaM gataH

    tejo 'nubhAvaM sItAyA

    yena nIto dazAm imAm

    </CENTER>

    na--not; vai--indeed; veda--did know; mahA-bhAga--O greatly fortunate one; bhavAn--yourself; kAma-vazam--influenced by lusty desires; gataH--having become; tejaH--by influence; anubhAvam--as a result of such influence; sItAyAH--of mother SItA; yena--by which; nItaH--brought into; dazAm--condition; imAm--like this (destruction).

     

    O greatly fortunate one
    , you came under the influence of lusty desires, and therefore you could not understand the influence of mother SItA. Now, because of her curse, you have been reduced to this state, having been killed by Lord RAmacandra.
    Ravana thoght he had the good fortune of the association of Sri Sitadevi, but that's another story. Being fortunate, opulent guarantees nothing.

     

     

     

     

     

     

    Dear qHari, dandavat pranam,

     

    This has nothing to do with the fortune of bhakti sukriti, which is the prerequisite for shraddha.

    And Ravana wanted to enjoy Sita, that is why he kidnapped Her (not for bhakti association). He had a demoniac mentality.


  5. Dear qHari, Dandavat pranam

    You said:

    Only forgetfulness of unlimited sins committed over eons and eons since time immemorial could make someone think himself worthy of Krsna's mercy - that Krsna is BOUND to do anything

    My reply was

    The fact that <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> is bound to respect His word, when He says that He rewards everyone accordingly, it doesn’t mean one should “think himself worthy of Krsna's mercy" (as you concluded)

    You should not jump to false conclusions.

    <!--[if !supportLineBreakNewLine]-->

    <!--[endif]-->

    Your commentary

    I keep wondering if your arguments really make sense to you. They fall apart in my mind so many ways before I even conclude reading them. I cannot believe that you so unfortunate that the fallacies are not also revealed to you. Your postures are always nullified by the points in posts that you do not address.

    Please can you help me and be more precise?

    Then you said:

    You conclude there is no such thing as mercy, that you will demand Krsna when you reach the top step of your staircase. Simply arrogance.

    But

    This is your conclusion not mine, and for your conclusion you are stamping me as arrogant.

    Sorry that I say it, but if you don’t understand something you should ask first.

    Shraddha comes not out of mercy, and this does not mean that there is no such thing as mercy, as you stated.

    If mercy is not related to the awakening of faith, it doesn’t mean that there is no such thing as mercy, as you stated.

    As I brought evidence from shastra <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> behaves equal to everyone up to the point where one starts to worship Him.

    He doesn't say that He will give someone shraddha just because He wants it. He explained in the shrutis how it happens.(See Brihad aranyaka Upanishad)

    In the.Bhagavad-gita 9.29 He also says He behaves equaly to everyone samo 'haḿ sarva-bhūtesu up to the point where one starts to worship Him.

    samo 'haḿ sarva-bhūtesu na me dveṣyo 'sti na priyaḥ |

    ye bhajanti tu māḿ bhaktyā mayi te teṣu cāpy aham ||

    From the moment someone starts to do bhajan to attain Him, things change.

    In this connection, for the Gaudiya Vaishnavas, which have been blessed to inherit the path of raga-anunga, mercy is of outmost importance

    Though the direct cause for the awakening of greed for attaining the divine loving feelings of the most confident associates of Krishna in Vraja, is the hearing of narrations about His Vraja-pastimes, one must also give due consideration to the foundational cause of the phenomena.

     

    kRSNa tad bhakta kAruNya mAtra lobhaika hetukA |

    puSTi mArgatayA kaizcid iyaM rAgAnugocyate || (brs 1.2.309)

     

    “The only causes of the appearance of sacred greed are the mercy of Sri Krishna or the mercy of His devotee.

    Therefore some also call the path of raganuga-bhakti with the name pusti-marga (the path of grace).”

     

    The mercy of Sri Krishna or His devotees is the cause of that spiritual greed, which causes eligibility for the practice of raganuga-bhakti.

     

    sa ca bhagavat kRpA hetuko ‘nurAgI bhakta kRpA hetukaz ceti dvividhaH |

    tatra bhakta kRpA hetuko dvividhaH prAktana Adhunikaz ca |

    prAktanaH – paurva bhavika tAdRza bhakta kRpotthaH, AdhunikaH etaj janmAvadhi tAdRza bhakta kRpotthaH |

    Adye sati lobhAnantaraM tAdRza guru caraNAzrayaNam |

    dvitIye guru caraNAzrayAnantaraM lobha pravRttir bhavati || (rvc 1.6)

     

    There are said to be two causes for the appearance of the aforementioned greed, namely the mercy of God and the mercy of an anuragi devotee. There are again two kinds of mercy bestowed by a devotee, namely old and recent.

    Greed which is born from the mercy of such devotees of Sri Krishna in a previous life is known as old (praktana).

    Greed which is born from the mercy of a devotee in the present life is known as recent (adhunika).

    In the one in whom greed has awakened in a previous birth, his greed manifests and he then takes shelter of the feet of a raganugiya devotee guru. One whose greed is recent will first take shelter of the feet of a guru, after which his greed appears.

     


  6.  

    I still don't think your criticisms of Srila Prabhupada are valid, because you ignore the context where something may not be fully explained because of the limitations of the audience.

     

    Dear brajeshwara, dandavat pranam,

     

    dervarji asked this question:

    If someone is claiming that one of His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami's purports does not stand the proof against revealed writings, that charge ought to be backed up with some principle example.

     

     

    That example with Karma came up by chance in a discussion with CBrahma, where he used a statement of A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami as the absolute evidence.

    Many people use to think that whatever he wrote is the absolute truth,

    but many thigs were circumstancial, as you also admit.

     

    You can see the whole context under:

     

    http://www.indiadivine.org/audarya/spiritual-discussions/435055-perfection-life.html

     


  7. Dear brajeshwar, dandavat pranam,

    You said:

    It's not chance, but the will of the jiva that he was in that place at that time.

    But

    The will of the jiva, that he was in that place at that time, was the chance to see the sadhus, temples, smell the incense, and bathe in the Ganges

     

    You also said:

    <FONT color=red>It's by the will of the Lord that he sees the sadhus, temples, smells the incense, and bathes in the <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com><st1:place w:st=Ganges</st1:place>.

    you also said:

    <font color=" /><st1:place w:st="on">Ganges</st1:place>.

    <FONT color=black>But that would mean that the Lord would favor one and another not.

    <FONT face=Arial><FONT color=black>Sri Krishna says in Bhagavad-gita 9.29 that He behaves equaly to everyone <FONT color=#2e8b57>samo '<FONT face=Tahoma>haḿ <FONT face=Tahoma>sarva-<FONT face=Tahoma>bhūteṣu <FONT color=black>up to the point where one starts to worship Him.

    <FONT face=Arial><FONT color=seagreen>samo '<FONT face=Tahoma>haḿ <FONT face=Tahoma>sarva-<FONT face=Tahoma>bhūteṣu <FONT face=Tahoma>na me dveṣyo 'sti <FONT face=Tahoma>na <FONT face=Tahoma>priyaḥ |

    <FONT face=Arial><FONT color=seagreen><FONT face=Tahoma>ye <FONT face=Tahoma>bhajanti <FONT face=Tahoma>tu <FONT face=Tahoma>māḿ <FONT face=Tahoma>bhaktyā <FONT face=Tahoma>mayi <FONT face=Tahoma>te <FONT face=Tahoma>teṣu cāpy <FONT face=Tahoma>aham ||


  8. qHari asked:

    How does Krsna then show His mercy this way (Madhya 22.47) to someone who will never meet a guru?

    my reply:

    There is no never. There's always a chance.

    Most dear Theist, dandavat pranam,

    you said

    Chance.:rolleyes: I don't believe in chance myself, I believe in Krsna the Supreme Controller.

     

    but

    Jiva has her own iccha shakti – desiring power, and her own shatantra shakti – independence power. So, what is the meaning of chance in this conection?

    Say a person likes adventures, and for him India is a challange.

    He does not go to India in search of spirituality.

    But during the trip he may see sadhus and temples of the Lord, and smell the incence offered to the deities, and bathe in the Gage...

    This is by chance, not by his will, or because Krishna controlls him.

    How does Krishna see this? As small declarations of love, and He will reciprocate with similar small presents of love. And these will increase life after life. Krishna gives assurance that it is like this in the shastra.


  9. Dear brajeshwara, Dandavat pranam

    You said:

    I don't think that " ...when it is incomplete, ...it is innacurate" is a realistic assumption.

    One sloka of the Bhagavad Gita standing alone may appear incomplete, but is it inaccurate?

    Now,

    It is important to know what the incompleteness and inaccuracy were referring to.

    If someone gives a definition of ... saying karma, which is incomplete, than that definition is certainly inaccurate.

    Similarly, let’s say one gives a definition from Bhagavad-gita which entails more slokas, but he uses only one shloka, than the definition given is incomplete and … as such inaccurate.

    Under discussion was a definition not a sloka.

    An incomplete definition is not accurate.


  10. Dear qHari, Dandavat pranam,

    You said:

    Only forgetfulness of unlimited sins committed over eons and eons since time immemorial could make someone think himself worthy of Krsna's mercy - that Krsna is BOUND to do anything

    But

    The fact that Krishna is bound to respect His word, when He says that He rewards everyone accordingly,

    it doesn’t mean one shouldthink himself worthy of Krsna's mercy" You should not jump to false conclusions.

     

    Krishna likes of being bound...by love.


  11.  

    Hare Krsna

    Dear Anadi, (you said)

    "Well, this definition of karma is not accurate, and may be quite confusing. "

    (reply)

    ...It is an incomplete definition but that is different, and wherever you got that quote from, ...

     

    Dear Devarsi dandavat pranam,

     

    ...when it is incomplete, ...it is inacurate.

     

    and ...people from some organizations use to quote the words of some personalities as "the last word" or "the absolute truth", like the mottos : "Prabhupada said", "Guru Y said" which is improper, as in the example under discussion.

    Please see:

    http://www.indiadivine.org/audarya/spiritual-discussions/435055-perfection-life.html

     

    Please take also into consideration the inacurate translations of the verses quoted by qHari, which can be used as false evidence.


  12. Dear qHari, dandavat pranam,

    you asked:

    How does Krsna then show His mercy this way (Madhya 22.47) to someone who will never meet a guru?

     

    There is no never. There's always a chance.

    <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> is bound to give His mercy in the form of sadhu-sanga and guru diksha / shiksha to a fortunate jiva. (Of course He can do how He pleases.

    And that is why it has been said that it is by His mercy. But <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> always follows His words as revealed in the shastra, even if sometimes it seems He doesn’t)

    The verse Madhya 22.47 says that the jiva must be fortunate to get <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>’s mercy. And that fortune of jiva is the good association, starting with:

    1. Association with the holy places

    <u1:p></u1:p>2. Association with the holy days

    <u1:p></u1:p>3. Association with bhakti paraphernalia (Tulasi, <st1:city u2:st="on"><st1:place u2:st="on">prasadam, Bhagavatam hearing, Holy Name hearing, </st1:place></st1:city><st1:city><st1:place>Temple</st1:place></st1:city> of the Lord)

    <u1:p></u1:p>4. Association with persons engaged in acts of divine devotion.

    This good associations bound <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> to give sadhu sanga and direct instruction through guru. He must be truthful when He says, that He rewards everyone accordingly.

    Krishna is always truthfull, because He is all love. ???


  13. Dear qHari dandavat pranam

    You presented the verse CC Madhya 22.47

    kRSNa yadi kRpA kare kona bhAgyavAne

    guru-antaryAmi-rUpe zikhAya Apane

    and added: Yes, but the translation of kRSNa kRpA is quite direct:

    Yes it's true...but the verse doesn’t say By the grace of Krsna one gets guru.

    Here it is an accurate translation:

     

    If krishna kRSNa yadi shows mercy kRpA kare to some fortunate person kona bhAgyavAne

    He gives personally instructions zikhAya Apane

    under the form rUpe of guru guru and the supersoul antaryAmi.”

    I previouly said:

    But everything comes from Krishna and by His grace

    So, what makes <st1:place w:st="Krishna</st1:place"> Krishna</st1:place> give somebody bhakti and somebody mukti or the association of a particular type of sadhus?

    Please read the previous post.

    Mercy has a cause. The humble Vaishnavas say: “by the causeless mercy…”


  14. Dear theist dandavat pranam,

    You said

    The specific quote he (anadi) objected to was "By the grace of krsna one gets guru and by the grace of guru one gets Krsna".

    Apparently the thinking is, we cannot be sure Srila Prabhupada was speaking according to GV Siddhanta.

    Dear theist Dandavat pranam,

    this is not quite accurate.

    I will try to refresh your memory:

    1. You said that in order to accept a guru, one should have the confirmation of caitya guru, and without His confirmation one should not accept any guru.

    I said that this is not Gaudiya Siddhanta, and that according to Srila Vishvanatha Cakravarti

    shraddha - faith is the prerequisite to accept a guru.

    Accepting of guru has nothing to do with any confirmation of caitya guru as you put it “Don't place your faith in or give your heart to anyone that Caitya guru has not confirmed to you....”

    2.Than you said:

    Now where did that faith come from?

    It came from Krsna in the heart (Caitya-guru) just like he says in the Gita,

    "I make his faith steady so that he may worship..."

    But the verse you quoted from bhagavad-gita 7.21 for Caitya-guru as the giver of transcendental faith – shraddha was not sustaining your allegation:

    <u1></u1>"Whatever devotee with faith (bhaktaḥ śraddhaya) in some demigod desires to worship him, I surely make his faith steady (acalāḿ śraddhāḿ )."

    <u1></u1>

    From your replies it seems you didn’t want to acknowledge, the verse you quoted doesn’t support the "principle" you stated: faith comes from Krishna:

    "By the grace of Krsna one gets guru, by the grace of guru one gets Krsna."

    <o></o>A well known saying by Srila Prabhupada. Suo compact & concise in summarizing the whole essence of bhakti-yoga that I call it a sutra.

    <o>

    Your commentary to that “saying“ was also improper,

    as I showed in the post from 02-04-2007, 01:45 AM

    The saying By the grace of Krsna one gets guru, doesn't say that faith comes from Krishna<st1:place w:st="Krishna</st1:place">.</st1:place>

    3. Than you proposed another evidence to prove that shraddha comes from <st1:place w:st=" /><st1:place w:st=" on="">Krishna.</st1:place></o>

    But everything comes from <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>, and by His grace.

    So, what makes <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> give somebody bhakti and somebody mukti or the association of a particular type of sadhus?

    It is one’s acquired faith, which make one to worship Krishna in a particular way, and <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> rewards one accordingly.

    And faith? Faith is due to association. Due to one’s particular association one gets a particular type of faith.

    This is elucidated in(Brihan Naradia Purana 4.33)

    bhaktis tu bhagavad bhakta saGgena parijAyate |

    sat-saGga prApyate pumbhiH sukRtaiH pUrva saJcite ||

    The inclination for devine devotion is awakened by the association with the devottes of the Lord

    And the association with the pure devotees (SAT SANGA)

    can be attained by the accumulated effect of SUKRITI (eternal pious activities) performed over uncountable life times.

    There are for type of preliminary association which are counted as bhakti sukritis that bring one in the association of bhakta sadhu:

    1. Association with the holy places

    2. Association with the holy days

    3. Association with bhakti paraphernalia (Tulasi, <st1:city w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Temple</st1:place></st1:city> of the Lord)

    4. Association with persons engaged in acts of divine devotion.

    Association in one’s life is everything, than according one’s association one gets a certain type of faith. Faith is attachment.

    So because of one’s association one earns some kind of attachment.

    Attachment is consciousness.

    So according one’s association one gets a certain type of consciousness.

    Consciousness is love.

    And in this connection the transcendental faith is the atomic fraction of transcendental love – premA.

    This transcendental faith or divine love is the intrinsec nature of the soul, but is awackened by the preliminary associations which are counted as bhakti sukriti.


  15. Dear qHari dandavat pranam,

    you gave this quotation from CC Madhya 19.151

    brahmANDa bhramite kona bhAgyavAn jIva

    guru-kRSNa-prasAde pAya bhakti-latA-bIja

    "... one who is very fortunate gets an opportunity to associate with a bona fide spiritual master by the grace of KRSNa. ..

     

    But the verse does not say that.

    Here it is an accurate translation:

     

    Wandering bhramite through the universe brahmANDa some – kona most fortunate bhAgyavAn souls jIva by the grace prasAde

    of the spiritual master and Krishna guru-kRSNa get pAya the seed – bIja of the flower of devotional service bhakti-latA

     


  16. Anadi wrote

    "They must stand the proof against revealed writings"

     

    Reply:

    If someone is claiming that one of His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami's purports does not stand the proof against revealed writings, that charge ought to be backed up with some principle example.

     

     

    Dear bhakta Devarsi

     

    Here it is a quote given for the elucidation of the meaning of karma, which says:

    Prabhupada: Karma means fruitive work. Just like you are laboring for some wages. You get your wages. Similarly, this material world our work is rewarded. Good work is rewarded with good benefit and bad work is punished. This is the law of karma.

     

    Answer:

    Well, this definition of karma is not accurate, and may be quite confusing.

    Bhagavan Sri Krishna says that there are three types of activities:

    Karma, vikarma and akarma.

    karmaṇo hy api boddhavyaḿ / boddhavyaḿ ca vikarmaṇaḥ

    akarmaṇaś ca boddhavyaḿ / gahanā karmaṇo gatiḥ

    (Bhagavat-gita 4.17)

    Karma, vikarma and akarma should be distinctively understood, because the karmic principle is profound.

    Any type of these activities bear fruits, or are fruitive,… but not all are karma.

    So, to say only that “Karma means fruitive work ” is not entirely correct, because it doesn’t say anything about

    1. the quality of the activity and

    2. the quality of the fruit.

    According to Sri Krishna, the quality of karma is that entails activities executed according varna-ashrama dharma:

    cātur-varṇyaḿ mayā sṛṣṭaḿ / guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ

    tasya kartāram api māḿ / viddhy akartāram avyayam

    Bhagavat-gita 4.13

    According to one's own qulities (guna) and the work (karma) associated with them, the four divisions of human society

    are created by Me. And although I am the creator of this system, you should know that I am yet the nondoer, being unchangeable.

    and the quality of the fruit of karma is that pleases the Supreme Lord Hari, as stated in Srimad Bhagavatam 1.2.13

    ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhā / varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ

    svanuṣṭhitasya dharmasya / saḿsiddhir hari-toṣaṇam

    O best among the twice-born, one achieves the highest perfection (saMsiddhir) by discharging the duties prescribed for one's own occupation

    according to social divisions (varNa) and religious orders of life (ashrama) thus pleasing (toSaNam) the Supreme Lord (Hari – the Well Wisher of His devotees)

    In this connection Srila Rupa Gosvami talking about karmis says:

    karmibhyaḥ parito hareḥ priyatayā vyaktiḿ yayur jñāninas

    tebhyo jñāna-vimukta-bhakti-paramāḥ premaika-niṣṭhās tataḥ

    tebhyas tāḥ paśu-pāla-pańkaja-dṛśas tābhyo 'pi sā rādhikā

    preṣṭhā tadvad iyaḿ tadīya-sarasī tāḿ nāśrayet kaḥ kṛtī

    More dear - priyatayā than the karims- karmibhya

    to the Lord - hareḥ in all respects – parito

    have attained – yayur distinction - vyaktiḿ the brahma jnanis – jñāninas.

    So, as one can see, karmis are dear to Lord and this refers to the ones who follow varna-ashrama dharma, and in this way pleasing Him.

    The other persons whose activities are vikarma or akarma cannot be classified as karmis.

    Karma follows naimitk dharma - the duties according one's acquired material nature (not the eternal nature of the soul - nitya dharma),

    karma refers to vedic ocupational duty according the social class (varna) and vedic spiritual order (ashram).


  17. Dear theist dandavat pranam

    I said:

    <TABLE class=MsoNormalTable style="WIDTH: 100%; mso-cellspacing: 0cm; mso-padding-alt: 4.5pt 4.5pt 4.5pt 4.5pt" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR style="mso-yfti-irow: 0; mso-yfti-firstrow: yes; mso-yfti-lastrow: yes"><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 18pt; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 18pt; BACKGROUND: #e0e0e0; PADDING-BOTTOM: 4.5pt; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 4.5pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1pt solid; mso-border-alt: solid #666666 .75pt">Dear theist dandavat pranam,

    the revealed books are not "books" but eternal personalities. And they are first.

     

     

    </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

    Your answer:

    Whatever you like to think prabhu. The books giving rise to the personalities who wrote them does not seem reasonable to me.

    But

    I think you misunderstood, what I have said:

    The different eternal transcendental personalities, which are personifications of the eternal transcendental knowledge are first, not the books written by a Rishi.

    Elucidation:

    Sabdha or the transcendental sound from the transcendental world is the source of knowledge, which in kali yuga takes the written form - shastra.

    Some rishis according their qualification can here/see a more or just a particular shabdha related to a particular perfection of life.

     


  18.  

    Well of course, Krsna is the source of everything. That was not the context in which we were discussing though anadi. We were speaking of between the realized soul and books of sastra which came first.

     

    Dear theist dandavat pranam,

    the revealed books are not "books" but eternal personalities. And they are first.

     

    also the context was/is that:

    Many charismatic svamis write commentaries on revealed scriptures, and their followers pretend these svamis would be directly from the spiritual world and their commentaries too.

    Are their commentaries really “revealed scriptures”? Are they from the spiritual world?

    Take for example Bhaktivedanta Svami and see… whose commentaries he used for “his own” commentaries in the translation he did.

    His commentaries, his letters, are not his "revelation", they must stand the proof against shastra.

    What to say about your commentaries to his commentaries.

    Or "my" commentaries...

    They must stand the proof against revealed writings.


  19.  

    Just curious anadi, are you a disciple of sri ananta panditji?

     

    Ja-in (Ja + Nein). I am like a disciple of his disciples. I study the commentaries of Ananta Das babaji, on different books of the Gosvamis of Vraja.

    I haven't got yet any formal initiation in a traditional gaudiya sampradaya.

     

    Now I think, I would like first to live with my guru over a long period of time, to see if we can accept eachother in the relation guru-disciple.

     

    Some people do not need it. Now, I think I do.


  20. Dear theist Dandavat pranam

    You said

    And what is the source of the sastra if not the authorized representatives of Krsna? Did those books write themselves? What we call sastra is nothing but the penned realizations of realized souls.

    Dear theist

    It seems quite logical, but the source of the sastra is Krishna Himself. This Knowledge flows through the chain of disciplic succession, but it is not the source of the shastra.

     

    Erläuterung

    Many charismatic svamis write commentaries on revealed scriptures, and their followers pretend these svamis would be directly from the spiritual world and their commentaries too.

    Are their commentaries really “revealed scriptures”? Are they from the spiritual world?

    Take for example Bhaktivedanta Svami and see… whose commentaries he used for “his own” commentaries in the translation he did.

    His commentaries, his letters, are not his revelation, they must stand the proof against shastra.

    What to say about your commentaries to his commentaries.

    Or "my" commentaries...

    They must stand the proof against revealed writings.


  21.  

    Proper evidence on the path of bhakti in Gaudiya Vaishnavism comes only from the authorized bona fide representative of the guru parampara. ...

     

    Therefore theist's quoting Srila Prabhupada is presenting the ultimate conclusion.

    .

    Dear Sucandra,dandavat pranama

     

    according to Gaudiya Vaishnava siddhanta,"the authorized bona fide representative of the guru parampara" is not the source of evidence .

    The source of proper evidence is shastra.

    Guru should teach according shastra.

     

    PramANa or evidence is the means to determine the authenticity of an object.

    PramAtA yenArthaM pramiNoti tad eva pramANam.

    Srimat JIva GosvAmIpAda writes in Sarva-saMvAdinI:

     

    yadyapi pratyakSAnumAna-zabdArSopamANArthApatty-abhAva-sambhavaitihya-ceSTAkhyAni daza pramANAni viditAni,

    tathApi bhrama-pramAda-vipralipsA-karaNApATava-doSa-rahita-vacanAtmakaH zabda eva mUla-pramANam

     

    “Generally there are ten types of evidence, namely pratyakSa, anumAna, zabda, ArSa, upamAna, arthApatti, abhAva, sambhava, aitihya, and ceSTA.

    zabda, or zruti, however, is accepted as the root evidence because it is free from the four defects of bhrama, pramAda, vipralipsA and karaNApATava."

     

    Read more:http://spirituality.forumup.de/viewtopic.php?t=27&mforum=spirituality

    As long as "theist's quoting Srila Prabhupada" is followed by wrong interpretations which he sustains by improper evidence from smriti, I can hardly accept them as the ultimate conclusion.

    In this conection see my last posts.

     

    PS

    My guru of the heart belongs to the disciplic succession descending from Sri Nityananda Prabhu and Srimati Jahnava Mata through the descendants of Sri Dhananjaya Pandit.

     

    Jiva Goswami explains that taking shelter of the spiritual master is a second sadhu sanga, for the awakening of faith, or a belief in the purport of the scriptures, arises out of an earlier contact with devotees and hearing from them. After such faith has awakened, and one realizes that devotional service is one’s only duty in life, then one takes shelter of a genuine guru and receives instructions about the various devotional practices

    (ādau prathame sādhu-sanga-śāstra-śravana-dvārā śraddhā tad-artha-viśvāsah. tatah prathamānantaram dvitīyah sādhu-sango bhajana-rīti-śikSā-nibandhanah || Durgama-sangamanī 1.4.15).


  22.  

    Take a hint anadi. We disagree and I have no necessity to try to make you see it my way nor do I accept your way, that's that. No big deal. Why persist?

     

    Dear theist dandavat pranam,

     

    This is not good. It sounds quite prejudieced.

    One should be open to analize the evidence the "oposed" party is presenting

    The point was that your statements were not sustained by proper evidence.:deal:

    So, is quite hard to accept them as truths?


  23. Dear theist dandavat pranam,

    First I must thank you for helping me to learn.

    You wrote:

    "By the grace of Krsna one gets guru, by the grace of guru one gets Krsna."

    A well known saying by Srila Prabhupada. Suo compact & concise in summarizing the whole essence of bhakti-yoga that I call it a sutra.

    But

     

    This “well known saying by Srila Prabhupada” is no sutra at all.

    Your idea is that it would summarize the essence of bhakti-yoga,

    but according Gaudiya Vaishnava siddhanta as delineated by Srila Rupa Gosvamin in Bhakti-rasamRta-sindhu, bhakti is defined as such

    anyAbhilASitA-zUnyaM jJana-karmAdy-anAvRtam

    AnukUlyena kRSNAnuzilanaM bhaktir uttamA (Bhakti-rasamRta-sindhu 1.1.11)

    And the essence of bhakti or the svarupa lakshana of bhakti is AnukUlyena kRSNAnuzilanaM – the cultivation of activities (zilanaM) which give Krishna pleasure, or happiness – that which is favorable (AnukUlyena) for … Krishna.


  24. Dear theist, dandavat pranam,

    "I" said:

    From your reply it seems you didn’t acknowledge, the verse you quoted doesn’t support the principle you stated.

    Your answer:

    I disagree. No need to discuss it for days. We disagree that's all.

    But

    Just saying that you disagree, doesn’t make the verse 7.2 from Bhagavad-gita an evidence for your belief.

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