anadi

 Caitanya Mahaprabhu was so humble that he considered the instruction of his spt master topmost.

He said to him that he was unfit to read the scriptures and it was better for him just to chant Hare Krsna.

I didn't know that Ishvara Puri or Keshava Bharati (His sanyasi guru) said to Sri Caitanya,

He would be unfit to read the scripture, and therefore He should chant Hare Krishna.

Can you please give the source of your informations (your guru or the book/chapter/verses)?

Gita is 5000 years old. Its society is not ours. Krishna is speaking to an Aryan, we are born candala or sudra. The context is completely different.

This is the proper answer.

25-35

dekhiyā brāhmaṇa-gaṇera haila camatkāra
vaidika brāhmaṇa saba karena vicāra

ei ta' sannyāsīra teja dekhi brahma-sama
śūdre ālińgiyā kene karena krandana

Seeing this, the followers of the brahmanical system wondered -dekhiyā brāhmaṇa-gaṇera haila camatkāra
these Brahmanas, strict followers of the rules of shastra , have all considered: -brāhmaṇa vaidika karena saba vicāra
We see as (this) sannyasi whose effulgence is indeed like the (light) brahman- dekhi sannyāsīra teja ei ta' sama brahma
embracing a shudra (a servant - person of the last social class) (which is against the rules) - ālińgiyā śūdre
(and even more) why do they cry? - kene karena krandana

ei mahārāja — mahā-paṇḍita, gambhīra
sannyāsīra sparśe matta ha-ilā asthira

This governor and highly learned (shudra) - ei mahārāja mahā-paṇḍita
touched the sober sannyasi - sparśe gambhīra sannyāsīra
who became restless, like a madman - ha-ilā asthira matta

ei-mata vipra-gaṇa bhāve mane mana
vijātīya loka dekhi, prabhu kaila samvaraṇa

As the followers of the brahmanical system thought in this way in their mind - vipra gaṇa bhāve ei mata mane mana
the Lord seeing (those) outside people, restrained (His emotions) - prabhu dekhi vijātīya loka kaila samvaraṇa.

sustha hañā duńhe sei sthānete vasilā
tabe hāsi' mahāprabhu kahite lāgilā

Becoming calm, both sat down at that spot - su-stha hañā duńhe vasilā sei sthānete
Then, smiling, mahāprabhu began to speak- tabe hāsi' mahāprabhu lāgilā kahite

'sārvabhauma bhaṭṭācārya kahila tomāra guṇe
tomāre milite more karila yatane

Sārvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya spoke about your qualities - sārvabhauma bhaṭṭācārya kahila guṇe;
(so) I endeavored to meet you - more karila yatane milite

tomā milibāre mora ethā āgamana
bhāla haila, anāyāse pāiluń daraśana'

I came here to meet you - āgamana ethā tomā milibāre
It was very good, that I got your darshan without difficulty - bhāla haila pāiluń daraśana anāyāse.

rāya kahe, — sārvabhauma kare bhṛtya-jñāna
parokṣeha mora hite haya sāvadhāna

Rāmānanda Rāya replied, “Sārvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya think of me as his servant- rāya kahe sārvabhauma kare jñāna bhṛtya
Even in my absence he takes care to help me - parokṣeha mora sāvadhāna hite haya.

tāńra kṛpāya pāinu tomāra daraśana
āji saphala haila mora manuṣya-janama

(then) By his mercy I got your interview - tāńra kṛpāya pāinu daraśana tomāra
Today my birth as a human being, was deemed successful - āji janama mora manuṣya haila sa-phala.

sārvabhaume tomāra kṛpā, — tāra ei cihna
aspṛśya sparśile hañā tāńra premādhīna

Sārvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya got your mercy - sārvabhaume kṛpā tomāra
(and) as You became influenced by that love - hañā adhīna prema tāńra
the symptom of it - cihna tāra ei
is that you touched a person (like me – a shudra) - sparśile aspṛśya

kāhāń tumi sākṣāt īśvara nārāyaṇa
kāhāń muñi rāja-sevī viṣayī śūdrādhama

Whereas You are directly the Supreme Lord Narayan - kāhāń tumi sākṣāt īśvara nārāyaṇa
I am only a servant of the king, a materialist, the lowest servant - kāhāń muñi rāja-sevī viṣayī adhama śūdra

Cetanya Cearitamrita 2.8.21-24

tathāpi puchila, — tumi rāya rāmānanda
teńho kahe, — sei hańa dāsa śūdra manda

Still he inquired: Are you Rāy Rāmānanda? - tathāpi puchila tumi rāya rāmānanda
He replied: I am that servant, of śūdra class - teńho kahe sei hańa dāsa śūdra manda

tabe tāre kaila prabhu dṛḍha ālińgana
premāveśe prabhu-bhṛtya dońhe acetana

Thereafter the Lord embraced him firmly - tabe prabhu tāre kaila ālińgana dṛḍha
Both absorbed in the divine love, the Lord and the servant, lost their consciousness – dońhe premāveśe prabhu-bhṛtya acetana

svābhāvika prema dońhāra udaya karilā
duńhā ālińgiyā duńhe bhūmite paḍilā

As they embraced each other, their own feelings of love (as they are eternally together in Goloka-Vrindavan part of the spiritual world )

were awakened in them both - ālińgiyā duńhe svābhāvika prema karilā udaya dońhāra
and they fell to the ground. - paḍilā duńhe bhūmite

stambha, sveda, aśru, kampa, pulaka, vaivarṇya
duńhāra mukhete śuni' gadgada 'kṛṣṇa' varṇa

Paralyzed , perspirating, tears flowing from their eyes, shivering, horripilating and becoming pale - duńhāra stambha sveda aśru kampa pulaka vaivarṇya
from their mouths were heard the letters Krishna - mukhete duńhāra śuni gadgada varṇa kṛṣṇa

Tika:

Here are described satvika bhavas of the two.

Cetanya Cearitamrita 2.8.8-20

pūrvavat kona vipre kaila nimantraṇa
sei rātri tāhāń rahi' karilā gamana

prabhāte uṭhiyā prabhu calilā premāveśe
dig-vidik nāhi jñāna rātri-divase

pūrvavat 'vaiṣṇava' kari' sarva loka-gaṇe
godāvarī-tīre prabhu āilā kata-dine

godāvarī dekhi' ha-ila 'yamunā'-smaraṇa
tīre vana dekhi' smṛti haila vṛndāvana

sei vane kata-kṣaṇa kari' nṛtya-gāna
godāvarī pāra hañā tāhāń kaila snāna

ghāṭa chāḍi' kata-dūre jala-sannidhāne
vasi' prabhu kare kṛṣṇa-nāma-sańkīrtane

hena-kāle dolāya caḍi' rāmānanda rāya
snāna karibāre āilā, bājanā bājāya

tāńra sańge bahu āilā vaidika brāhmaṇa
vidhi-mate kaila teńho snānādi-tarpaṇa

prabhu tāńre dekhi' jānila — ei rāma-rāya
tāńhāre milite prabhura mana uṭhi' dhāya

tathāpi dhairya dhari' prabhu rahilā vasiyā
rāmānanda āilā apūrva sannyāsī dekhiyā

sūrya-śata-sama kānti, aruṇa vasana
subalita prakāṇḍa deha, kamala-locana

dekhiyā tāńhāra mane haila camatkāra
āsiyā karila daṇḍavat namaskāra

uṭhi' prabhu kahe, — ūṭha, kaha 'kṛṣṇa' 'kṛṣṇa'
tāre ālińgite prabhura hṛdaya satṛṣṇa

As previously the Lord made all people (He met) into Vaishnavas - pūrvavat prabhu kari' sarva loka-gaṇe 'vaiṣṇava'
and after some days arrived on the bank of the river Godavari - kata-dine āilā tīre godāvarī

Seeing the river Godavari He remembered the river Yamnuna - dekhi' godāvarī ha-ila smaraṇa yamunā
and seeing the forests on the banks (of the river) - dekhi vana tīre
He remembered Vrindavan - haila smṛti vṛndāvana

For some time He danced in that forest - kata-kṣaṇa kari' nṛtya-gāna sei vane
(than) crossed the river Godavari and took a bath there - pāra hañā godāvarī kaila snāna tāhāń
 

Leaving the bathing place the Lord sat down - chāḍi ghāṭa prabhu vasi
in a short distance, near the water- kata-dūre jala-sannidhāne
(and started) chanting the name of Lord Krishna - kare sańkīrtane nāma kṛṣṇa

At this time arrived (there) Ram-ananda Ray - hena-kāle āilā rāmānanda rāya
riding on a palanquin accompanied by a (religios) musical band - dolāya caḍi bājāya bājanā

In his association there were a lot of Brahmanas following strictly the Vedic principles - tāńra sańge āilā bahu brāhmaṇa vaidika
This (Rāmānanda Rāya) took a bath and offered oblation according to ritualistic ceremonies- teńho kaila snāna-ādi-tarpaṇa vidhi-mate

The Lord (Şri Cetanya) seeing him, understood that this is Rāmānanda Rāya- prabhu dekhi' tāńre jānila ei rāma-rāya
and in His mind the Lord stood up and ran to meet him- mana prabhura uṭhi dhāya tāńhāre milite

But the Lord remained very patient sitting. - tathāpi prabhu rahilā dhariya dhari' vasiyā
As Rāmānanda Rāy arrived (there), he saw the wonderful sannyasi (Şri Cetanya)- rāmānanda āilā dekhiyā apūrva sannyāsī

The luster (of the Lord) was as of a hundred suns - kānti sama sūrya-śata
His garment was like saffron, - vasana aruṇa
His body was strongly built and big - deha subalita prakāṇḍa
(and His) eyes were like lotus petals - locana kamala-

Seeing Him (Seing Lord Caitanya), (Rāmānanda Rāy) wondered in his mind- dekhiyā tāńhāra haila camatkāra mane
(Rāmānanda Rāy) came (closer) and fell to the ground like a rod, paying obeisance - āsiyā karila daṇḍa-vat namaskāra.

The Lord stood up and said - prabhu uṭhi' kahe
get up and chant Krişna Krişna - uṭha kaha kṛṣṇa kṛṣṇa
The Lord was very eager to embrace him heartedly - prabhura sa-tṛṣṇa ālińgite tāre hṛdaya
 

5-9

"śrī-nṛsiḿha, jaya nṛsiḿha, jaya jaya nṛsiḿha
prahlādeśa jaya padmā-mukha-padma-bhṛńga"

Oh Lord Nrisimha, all victory to You Nrismha, victory, victory to You Nrismha - śrī-nṛsiḿha, jaya nṛsiḿha, jaya jaya nṛsiḿha
all victory to the Lord of Prahlad and the goddess of Fortune, the bee of His face like a lotus - prahlādeśa jaya padmā mukha padma bhṛńga

ugro 'py anugra evāyaḿ sva-bhaktānāḿ nṛ-keśarī
keśarīva sva-potānām anyeṣāḿ ugra-vikramaḥ

Although ferocious (because of His form of) human and lion - apy ugro nṛ-keśarī
certainly like a lioness to her young cubs - eva keśarī iva sva-potānām
this is not ferocious for His own devotees - ayaḿ anugra sva-bhaktānāḿ
(whereas) for others (His) strength is ferocious - anyeṣām vikramaḥ ugra

ei-mata nānā śloka paḍi' stuti kaila
nṛsiḿha-sevaka mālā-prasāda āni' dila

In this way He recited various verses in (His) praise - ei-mata paḍi' nānā śloka kaila stuti
(and as such) the servant (of the temple) of Lord Nrisimha - sevaka nṛsiḿha
brought garlands and food offered (to Lord Nrisimha) - āni' mālā prasāda dila.

pūrvavat kona vipre kaila nimantraṇa
sei rātri tāhāń rahi' karilā gamana

As previously, some brahmana made Him an invitation -pūrvavat kona vipre kaila nimantraṇa
(but) that night (Goura) remained there (in temple) (and then) went (further) - sei rātri tāhāń rahi' karilā gamana

prabhāte uṭhiyā prabhu calilā premāveśe
dig-vidik nāhi jñāna rātri-divase

In the morning the Lord rising - prabhāte prabhu uṭhiyā
and being absorbed in the divine love –āveśe prema
went day and night without knowing - calilā rātri-divase nāhi jñāna
(if it was) right and wrong - dik-vidik
 

1 - 4

sañcārya rāmābhidha-bhakta-meghe
sva-bhakti-siddhānta-cayāmṛtāni
gaurābdhir etair amunā vitīrṇais
taj-jñatva-ratnālayatāḿ prayāti

Gaura (Şri Caitanya Mahaprabhu) as an ocean distributed - gaura-abdhiḥ vitīrṇais
the amount of nectarean conclusions about his own devotional service–cayā amṛtāni siddhānta sva-bhakti
infusing it in that devotee like a cloud named Rāma- sañcārya etair amunā bhakta-meghe abhidha rāma
through which he attained this knowledge, the abode of jewels– prayāti taj-jñatva ālayatām ratna

jaya jaya śrī-caitanya jaya nityānanda
jayādvaita-candra jaya gaura-bhakta-vṛnda

All victory to Şri Caitanya, all victory to Nityananda, all victory to Advaita-candra, all victory to the devotees of Gaura (the name of Şri Cetanya before He started the drama of being a sannyasi) and to Vrinda Devi.

pūrva-rīte prabhu āge gamana karilā
'jiyaḍa-nṛsiḿha'-kṣetre kata-dine gelā

According previous program the Lord (Gaura) as he went further - rīte pūrva prabhu gamana āge
came after some days to a place called Nrisimha - karilā gelā kata-dine kṣetre jiyaḍa-nṛsiḿha

nṛsiḿha dekhiyā kaila daṇḍavat-praṇati
premāveśe kaila bahu nṛtya-gīta-stuti

Seeing the Lord Nrisimha he offered his respect - nṛsiḿha dekhiyā kaila -praṇati
(falling to the ground) as a stick—daṇḍavat
absorbed in the divine love -aveśe prema
He danced, sang, and offered a lot of praising - kaila nṛtya gīta bahu stuti

 

Verse 8

so'yamātmā-adhyakṣaram-omkāro'dhimātram pādā mātrā,

mātrāsca pādā akāra ukāro makāra iti

This, soul – sah ātmā, which is beyond all syllables (cannot be described in material words) – yam adhy aksaram

is the sacred sylable - omkara, above all elements adhi mātram the full measure of all states – pādā mātrā

and this full measure is present thus (not full but in parts) mātrāsca pādā iti

the syllable a, the syllable u (and) the syllable m -akāra ukāro makāra

Verse 7

yah. nāntah-prajñam, na bahiprajñam, no'bhayatah-prajñam na

prajñānaghanam, na prajñaM, nāprajñaM

adriṣhtamavyavahāryam agrahyamalakṣanam-acintyam

avyapadeśyam-ekātmapratyayasāram prapaJcopaśam

śāntam, śivam-advaitam caturtham

manyante, sa ātmā sa vijñe

The fourth (state) is the endless consciousness caturtham na-antah-prajñam

known as the soul (in himself) manyante sa ātmā,

Invisible, ineffable, beyond the grasp of direct perception (being) devoid (of material) characteristicsinconceivable adriṣhtam-avyavahāryam-agrahyam-alakshanam acintyam

Indefinable, whose essence is the soul alone – avyapadeśyam-ekātmapratyaya sāram

ceasing material existence, peaceful, blissful, non-dual - prapaJca upaśam śāntam, śivam-advaitam

(and) this should be realized, sa vijñeyah

not the internal consciousness, not the external consciousness - na bahiprajñam, no'bhayatah-prajñam

not the uninterrupted consciousness – na prajñanaghanam

not consciousness not no-consciousness - na prajñam, na-aprajñam.

This is the state one should realized, not the other three, one may be caught in.<m:defjc m:val="centerGroup">

</m:defjc>In this connection Shuka Gosvami said in Bhagavat Puran 2.10.6 :

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muktir hitvānyathā rūpaḿ sva-rūpeṇa vyavasthitiḥ

Lying down (in karana jala- Causal Ocean) asyānuśayanam after the (cyclic) annihilation (of the material world)- nirodha asyānuśayanam

the souls along with the (material) energy are liberated -ātmanaḥsahaśaktibhiḥ muktir.

Giving up his other form –hitva anyathā rūpaḿ (the soul) is firmly situated-vyavasthitiḥ in his own (true) form - sva-rūpeṇa

In my opinion this is the fourth state of the souls, the full state of the soul , that can be attained when one attains one's spiritual form.

<m:defjc m:val="centerGroup"> In the third state </m:defjc>prajñāna-ghana<m:defjc m:val="centerGroup"> the soul merge in the body of the Lord, but in the full fourth state </m:defjc>na-antah-prajñam <m:defjc m:val="centerGroup"> the soul is in his own form </m:defjc>sva-rūpeṇa.

Verse 5

yatra supto na kaJcana kāmam kāmayate;

na kaJcana svapnam paśyati tat sushuptam.

sushuptasthāna ekībhūtah prajñānaghana evānandamayo

hyānandabhuk cetomukhah prājñas-tritīyah pādah

The third category (state) (of the soul) is the uninterrupted consciousness tritīyah pādah prajñāna-ghana

where one sees (experience) that deep sleep yatra paśyati tat sushuptam

in sleeping without any desires or hankering supto na kaJcana kāman kāmayate without any dreams - na kaJcana svapnam .

Situated in deep sleep sushhuptasthāna in one being (with the Lord) ekibhūtah

made only of bliss – evanandamayo one enjoys this bliss – hyānandabhuk

gratifying the mouth of consciousness - cetomukhah prājñas.

This is the state of being merged in the body of the Lord.

One`s interpretation might be that during one’s so called deep sleep in this world, one goes in the body of the Lord in the spiritual world, and one becomes one with the Lord ekibhūtah and enjoys ananda hyānandabhuk.

In my opinion this is very improbable, as long as no badha-jiva has any idea of this blissful state ananda one should have already experienced as uninterrupted consciousness prajñāna-ghan, when one goes in deep sleep without dreams or desires.

In my opinion this uninterrupted consciousness is the state of deep sleep, when one is immersed in the body of the Lord, after the destruction of the material world, if one doesn’t get liberated and got no access in the spiritual world. As long as one has not attained mukti, before the destruction of the material world one goes in deep sleep in the body of the Lord, and by the next creation is delivered again in the material world to resume his activities and satisfy his desires, he didn’t satisfied in the previous creation.

I personally don’t know anybody that may pretend, he experienced the spiritual bliss ananda, the union with (merging in) the body of the Lord during his deep sleep in this world.

We must take into consideration that such ananda is incredible more pleasurable than the climax tasted in the sexual intercourse.

We may connect this verse with 7.9.32 of Bhagavat Puran, where Prhalad address the Lord Nrisimha -deva.

nyasyedam ātmani jagad vilayāmbu-madhye

śeṣetmanā nija-sukhānubhavo nirīhaḥ

yogena mīlitadṛgātmanipīta-nidras

turye sthito na tu tamo na guṇāḿś ca yuńkṣe

With eyes half closed - mīlitadṛg absorbed in Yourself -ātmanipīta

situated in the transcendental sleeping like state of contemplation –yoga nidra turye sthito

but not in the darkness of the material modes of nature na tu tamo guṇā

you linked with the (water of) dissolution – yuńkṣe

the sleeping and inactive souls in yourself śeṣetmanā nija nirīha

(which) experienced happiness (of spiritual bliss) sukhānubhavo

throwing these souls nyasyedam ātmani

in the midst (of the waters) of dissolution (and creation) of the universe - jagad vilayāmbu-madhye

The verse describes the state of being merged in the body of the Lord.

Verse 6

eṣa sarveśvara eṣha sarvajña eṣo'ntaryāmyeṣa

yonih sarvasya prabhavāpyayau hi bhūtānaM.

This is the Lord of all; the omniscient; the Indwelling Controller (the Supersoul); the source of all. This is the beginning and end of all beings.

Verse 4

svapnasthāno'ntah-prajñah saptāGga ekonavimsatimukhah

praviviktabhuk taijaso dvītyah pādah

The second category (state) dvītyah pādah is the internal consciousness- antah prajña

in the lightning state dream svapnāsthano taijasa

originated in enjoying pravivikta bhuk

with seven limbs and nineteen mouths saptānga ekonavimśatimukhah .

In this connection it is said in BRhad-AraNyaka UpaniSad 4.3.18:

tad yathA mahA-matsya ubhe kUle ‘nusaJcarati

pUrvaN cAparaJ caivam evAyaM puruSa etAv ubhAv antAv

anusaJcarati svapnAntaJ ca buddhANtaJ ca

Just as a large fish tad yatha mahA-matsya moves to anusaJcarati both banks (of a river) - ubhe kUle,

so the enjoying soul evAyaM puruSa, previously situated pUrvaN behind aparaJ (in the body of the Lord)

certainly comes near caivam etAv to the boundary between the two (worlds- material and spiritual) antav ubhAv – represented by the water of creation and destruction –karana jala – causal ocean ,

wandering between anusaJcarati, the boundary of dream svapnAntaJ and the boundary of wakefulness buddhANtaJ.

BRhad-AraNyaka UpaniSad (4.3.9)

tasya vA etasya puruSasya dve eva sthAne /

bhavata idaN ca paraloka-sthAnaN ca

sandhyaM tRtIyaM svapna-sthAnaM /

tasmin sandhye sthAne tiSThan ete ubhe

sthAne pazyatIdaN ca paraloka-sthAnaN ca

There are certainly two positions dwe eva sthAne which the enjoying soul attains etasya puruSasya bhavata

this (material world) -idaN, and the spiritual location ca paraloka-sthAnaN. There is a third position tRtIyaM, which is a dream condition svapna-sthAna, and is the juncture - between the other two sandhyaM. Residing tiSThan in that place tasmin sthAne where they (the two worlds) meet sandhye, he sees both ete pazyati ubhe this jaDa-jagat idan and the spiritual abode paraloka-sthAnaN.

Verse 1

aomityetadakṣaramidam sarvam, tasyopavyākhyānam,

bhūtam bhavatbhaviṣyaditi sarvamomkāra eva;

yaccānyat trikālātītam tadapyomkāra eva.

The previously mentioned syllable om - aomityetadakṣara is everything idam sarvam.

It is explained as follows: the past, present, and future, (the whole description of the material worlds) - tasyopavyākhyānam bhūtam bhavatbhaviṣyaditi

is verily this om sarvamomkāra eva.

Whatever -yad is different - anya of these three states of time trikālātītam,

that too, is certainly the syllable om tad api eva omkāra.

The verse states the advaita everything is the syllable om, with a idea of dvaita vada.

In the next verse is spoken of that which is different yad anya. (There is a difference in the energy "itself").

Verse 2

sarvam hyeted brahmāyamātmā brahma

so’yamātmā catuṣyāt.

All these souls are the very sarvam hyetad ayamātmā energy of the Lord - brahma.

This soul (as generic notion) so’yamātmā (which is) the energy of the Lord -brahma is in four (states of existence) –catuṣyāt

Verse 3

jāgaritasthāno bahihprajñah saptāGga

ekonavimśatimukhah sthūlabhug vaiśvānarah

prathamah pādah.

(The soul’s) first category (state) prathama pāda is the external consciousness –bahi prajña

in the waking state – jāgarita sthāna well common to all people -vaiśvānarah

as the enjoyer of gross elements sthūlabhug

with seven limbs and nineteen mouths saptāngaekonavimśatimukhah

Real estate in Pracin Mayapur (old Mayapur) - Navadvip

From Iskcon - on the other side of the Ganges.

House on about 3 bigers (about 3600 m²) of land on the shore of the Ganges. Beautiful Garden and bathing gat.

Estimated on 30 lakhs (30 x 100000) Rupees.

Sale price 18 lakhs.

Local real estate agent 2 lakhs

Int real estate agent 1 lakhs.

End Sale Price (by registration of the land and house)- 21 lakhs.

21 lakhs is about 32800 Euro (on the local exchange rate of 64 Rs/Euro).

The registration fee is 10% of the Sale Price (18 lakhs) - 1.8 lakh,

but can be set to the half of the value or even less.

Does anybody know a telephone no. from a Taxi company from Navadip, that can pick up devotees from Calcutta airport?

thank you

anadi

<table style="width: 100%;" class="MsoNormalTable" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr style=""> <td style="border: 1pt solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding: 4.5pt 18pt; background: rgb(224, 224, 224) none repeat scroll 0% 50%; -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial;"> bāhya, antara, — ihāra dui ta' sādhana

'bāhye' sādhaka-dehe kare śravaṇa-kīrtana

'mane' nija-siddha-deha kariyā bhāvana

rātri-dine kare vraje kṛṣṇera sevana

SYNONYMS

bāhya — externally; antara — internally; ihāra — of this spontaneous love of Godhead; dui — two; ta' — indeed; sādhana — such processes of execution; bāhye — externally; sādhaka-dehe — with the body of an advanced devotee; kare — does; śravaṇa-kīrtana — hearing and chanting; mane — the mind; nija — own; siddha-deha — eternal body or self-realized position; kariyā bhāvana — thinking of; rātri-dine — night and day; kare — executes; vraje — in Vṛndāvana; kṛṣṇera — of Lord Kṛṣṇa; sevana —

service.

TRANSLATION

"There are two processes by which one may execute this rāgānugā bhakti — external and internal. When self-realized, the advanced devotee externally remains like a neophyte and executes all the śāstric injunctions, especially those concerning hearing and chanting. But within his mind, in his original, purified, self-realized position, he serves Kṛṣṇa in Vṛndāvana in his particular way. He serves Kṛṣṇa twenty-four hours a day, all day and night.

</td> </tr> </tbody></table>

 

 

So, your translation

 

“Use the mind for contemplating your siddha deha.”

 

reads a little different from Srila Prabhupada's:

 

"But within his mind, in his original, purified, self-realized position, he serves Kṛṣṇa in Vṛndāvana in his particular way."

 

Dear guruvani, dandavat,

If you read carefully into the word for word translation, with a minimum of Bengali (Sanskrit) knowledge, you will see that there are some interpolations in the translation, which are not in the original text, and some mistranslations.

The word ihara does not refer to “spontaneous love of Godhead”

If you look in the verse 2.22.153, it is spoken about raga-anuga bhakti.

Raga-anuga bhakti is not “spontaneous love of Godhead”, but a practice, a type of sadhana, and this verse says it clearly:

Raga-anuga bhakti - ihara - is a practice – sadhana - done in two ways dui ta (namely)

internally - antara – in the mind and externally – bahya.

Many people falsely translate raganuga-bhakti as spontaneous love of Godhead

The spontaneous love of Godhead is the property of the associates of Krishna in Vraja, and they do raga-atmika bhakti not raganunga-bhakti

What means externally? The verse explains it further:

Externally - bāhye – in the body - dehe - of a practicing devotee - sādhaka one does kare

śravaṇa-kīrtana

In the mind - mane one should do - kariyā contemplation bhāvana of one`s nija- perfect siddha body – deha. And

Day and night - rātri-dine one should do kare service – seva of <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> in Vraja.

The verse doesn’t say anything about an original or purified or self-realized… position.

The verse says clearly that one should use his mind for two purposes:

<!--[if !supportLists]-->-<!--[endif]-->to contemplate upon once perfect body – siddha deha while

<!--[if !supportLists]-->-<!--[endif]-->one will serve (in the mind) Krishna of Vrindavan

The same it is said by Rupa Gosvami in the sloka 1.2.295 from Bhakti-rasämrita-sindhu

sevA sAdhaka-rUpeNa siddha-rUpeNa cAtra hi |

tad-bhAva-lipsunA kAryA vraja-lokAnusArataH ||

The Raganuga practitioner desirous of becoming an eternal Brajavasi, should follow in the moods and mellows of those particular associates in two ways:

- externally, in the sadhaka-deha (practitioner body) one should follow the rules of shastra

- internally, in one’s siddha-rupa (eternal body, conceived in the mind) one should perform manasi-seva to Krishna in the company of His dearest Vrindaban companions.”

Here it is some more elucidation regarding this process:

Sri Rupa Gosvami presents the basis of Raganuga sadhana saying in Bhakti-rasämrita-sindhu 1.2.294

kṛṣṇaḿ smaran janaḿ cāsya preṣṭhaḿ nija-samīhitam

tat-tat-kathā-rataś cāsau kuryād vāsaḿ vraje sadā

“Smaran is to be performed focusing on Krishna in the company of those prya Vrindaban associates that one desires to eternally serve.

Interrelated lila-katha should always be discussed while taking up residence in Vrindaban.”

“Remember Krishna kṛṣṇaḿ smaran with ca His asya very dear preṣṭhaḿ (eternal) associates janaḿ chosen by oneself (one prefere) nija-samīhitam

And in this way cāsau being attached rataś to a certain type of loving pastimes tat-tat-kathā always sadā one should live kuryād vāsaḿ in Vrindavan vraje.

Commenting on this sloka Sri Jiva Gosvami says:

“To physically live in Vrindaban and Braja-mandala is best; but, if that is not possible one should alt least try to live there mentally.”

Sriman Mahaprabhu (Sri Krishna Caitanya) said:

“mora mona vridaban” – My mind is Vrindaban.

Hence, wherever the Lord remained, Vrindaban was created by His absorption on <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>’s Braja pastimes.

Following in Sri Gouranga’s footsteps, every determined sadhak should learn the art of transferring the mind to Ananda-Vrindavan.

Sri Rupa presents the formula for becoming a factual Brajavasi in this sloka.

Those able to both physically and mentally reside in Braja-mandala are most favorably situated because the atmosphere of the Dham (holly place) is ideal for arousing the proper divine sentiments.

The meaning of Sri Rupa’s “kRSNaM smaran janaM casya” sloka, is re-confirmed in Srila Kaviraja Gosvami’s Bengali translation:

nijābhīṣṭa kṛṣṇa-preṣṭha pācheta' lāgiyā

nirantara sevā kare antarmanā hañā (Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 22.159)

The raganuga sadhak should constantly perform “internal” manasi-seva to Krishna following in the footsteps of the priya-Braja associates

who are nija-abhīṣṭa (having the same relationship that the sadhak desires to establish with Sri Krishna).

(The raganuga sadhak) should be hañā constantly nirantara engaged kare in divine devotional service sevā within the mind antarmanā

following pācheta' lāgiyā the dear associate of <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> kṛṣṇa-preṣṭha of one's own choice nija-abhīṣṭa.

Besides the meditation of the Guru’s Manjari-svarupa, the Gaudiya Vaisnava Acharyas also recommend that the sadhak conceive of his own siddha-svarup. It should be noted however, that his is an internal practice only having nothing to do with one’s outward dress.

Commenting on Sri Rupa’s kṛṣṇaḿ smaran janaḿ cāsya verse, Sri Jiva Gosvami says:

“The meditation of oneself (atma-dhyan) as an eternal Brajavasi is of two types:

- alada rupa – separate form and

- abheda manan – identical from.

Abheda manan - mentally identifying oneself as being Lalita Sakhi, Rupa Manjari or any Braja associate is a grave offense that will lead the devotional practitioner to ruination being as offensive as thinking oneself to be Sri Krishna.

Alada rupa - mentally identifying oneself as a separate exquisitely beautiful Braja-kishori maidservant of Rahda is the proper way.

The alada Rupa is recommended in the next sloka 1.2.295 from Bhakti-rasämrita-sindhu.

The siddha-pranali process is currently being advertised publicly on international media by Vaishnavas from opposing parivars who have been critical of Srila Saraswati Thakur and the successor Saraswata acharyas.

 

The Saraswata acharyas have given a system of preaching and propagating the KC movement on a wide scale globally. Such a missionary movement should not practice or preach such esoteric principles that were private and esoteric aspects of bhajan of some sects of Gaudiya Vaishnavas.

 

The entire process of Bhagavat-marga is within the range of raganuga.

Raganuga bhakti is not exclusively the lila-smaranam in ekadasa-bhava which has been restricted by the Saraswata acharyas.

 

If one does not come in a line of gurus who practice the siddha-pranali process, then it is a violation against one's own guru to go outside the parivar to acquire things forbidden by one's guru.

Dear Guruvani, dandavat

Well if one's guru goes against the previous Gaudiya Vaishnava acaryas, then he cannot be considered a bonafide Gaudiya Vaishnava guru.

In Sri Harinam-cintamani Srila Bhaktivinoda provide the details of how the bonafide Guru will instruct the disciple and adjust his bhajan according to the identity of his siddha svarupa:

Ei ekadas bhava sampura sadhane

pancha dasa lakhya hoy sadhakjive

sravan, baran ara smaran, apana

sampatti ei pancha vidha dasay ganan

The sadhana relating to the eleven items of ekadas-bhava (Siddh-pranali ) is executed in five progressive stage:

1) Shravan – dasha (the stage of hearing)

2) Baran- dasha (the stage of accepting)

3) Smaran-dasha (the stage of remembering)

4) Apana –dasha (the mature stage)

5) Sampatti dasha (the stage of hearing)

1) Shravan dasha (the stage of hearing)

nijapekha srestha suddha bhavuk je jana

bhavamarge gurudeva sei mahajan

tahar sri mukhe bhava tattver sravan

hoile sravan dasa hoy prakatan

bhava tattva dviprakar koraba bicar

nija ckadasbhava Krishna lika ara (Harinama Cintamani)

“The ekadas bhava tattva and Krishna’s Asta-kala lilas should be heard from a suddha-bhakta more advanced than oneself. (This suggests one’s guru, who should be a pure bhavuk devotee – one that can taste Braja-bhava).”

The fortune to have darshan (audience) of, and hear Hari katha (Krishna’ pastimes) from a Bhava-bhakta is a rare opportunity. If one can find such a rare person hearing from him will bear results very quickly. In this connection Caitanya Caritamrita says:

“labha matra sadhu sange sarva siddhi hoy”

All perfection can be gained by just a moment of association with a sadhu.

This statement is not an exaggeration.

The merciful touch of a jata-rati sadhu can pass on the same rati; just as a fire lights other objects ablaze.

Unfortunately, we may not be incorrect in saying that the majority of Vaisnava Gurus in the present day are not on the jata-rati (asakti-bhava) platform. So it is advisable that a person interested to hear the ekadas-bhava-tattva and asta-kala lila, do so from his Guru if he is well versed in these matters; and, furthermore, to read about these topics directly from the Gosvami literature. Because the books of the Gosvamis have all been written by Premika-bhaktas, hearing from them is both safe and flawless.

In Jaiva-dharma, Thakura Bhaktivinoda describes two types of sravan-dasa

1) Krama-suddha

2) Krama-hina.

Krama-suddha-sravan means to hear Hari-katha, which is directly meant for awakening the relationship a bhakta wishes to establish with the Lord.

Krama-hina sravan referes to hearing all sorts of Krishna-katha not particularly related to one’s adopted mood. Such hearing will not be profitable to the raganuga sadhak.

The modern day KC movement in the western world is known as the Saraswata school of the Gaudiya Vaishnava sampradaya.

This designation as "Saraswata" indicates that the movement is marked most specifically with the innovations and standards estabablished by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswata Thakur, as it was his disciples who were the actual ambassadors of KC to the western world.

 

The global KC movement of today is principally established by the disciples of Srila Saraswati Thakur according to the guidelines and doctrine of Srila Saraswati Thakur. Srila Saraswati Thakur, though the son of Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur, made his own contribution to the formula of the global KC movement.

 

What Bhaktivinoda Thakur did himself personally is not a practical formula for a global movement meant for reaching all countries and cultures of the world. Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur standardized a basic format with which his disciples could take the KC movement worldwide to all peoples of the world.

 

As such, the paradigm that Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur gave his disciples to work within are the established parameters and practices that the Saraswata Gaudiyas follow for the global KC movement.

 

So, imitating Bhaktivinoda Thakur is neither practical or proper within the Saraswata school. The disciples of Srila Saraswati Thakur employ the innovations and the doctrine of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur in conducting the global KC movement.

 

As such, the personal practices of Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur cannot be imitated on a mass scale in a global KC movement. That is why Srila Saraswati Thakur adapted a practical and feasible forumula with his his disciples could spread KC all over the world.

 

Thus the KC movement is called Saraswata because of following the doctrine of Srila Saraswati Thakur which does not allow for imitating such great bygone masters as Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur.

Dear guruvani, dandavat,

Well it might be true that the Saraswata school does not follow the raganunga bhakti as described by the previous acharyas,

as the founder of that school had no guru, who would initiate him in raganunga sadhan-bhakti.

In his Jaiva-dharma (Chapter 39) his father, Thakur Bhaktivinod describes the two parts of Raganuga sadhana’s internal aspect:

1. The mental conception of one’s siddha deha as:

- upasak-poriskriti (a purificatory process directed to the sadhak)

2. Gour-Govinda Asta-kala-manasi-seva as

- upasya-poriskriti (the purificatory process in connection with the worshippable object).

As concerning upasak poriskriti Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu taught Sanatan Goswami:

Mone nija siddha deha koriya bhavan (CC Madhya 22)

“Use the mind for contemplating your siddha deha.”

The Lord similarly instructed Ramananda Raya that:

“siddha dehe cinti kore tahai sevan” CC Madhya 8

“Visualize your siddha-deha and mentally serve in that form.”

Sriman Mahaprabhu entrusted the responsibility for promoting the details of these instruction to Sri Gopal Guru Gosvami who, as the foremost disciple of Vakreswara Pandit, became intimately connected with the Lord during His last eighteen years at Puri. Due to intimacy with Svarupa Damodar also, Gopal gained an exceptional insight into Sriman Mahaprabhu’s internal movements. This pleased the Lord so much that Mahaprabhu selected him to be the first Acarya of Gambhira after His departure. The Lord also instructed him to write a Paddhati on Siddha-pranali and lila-smaran, and awarded him the title of “Guru”. Sri Gopal Guru’s disciple, Sri Dhyan-candra Goswami was also ordered later to compile a second Paddhati which has received equal acclaim. Still later, following these two Arcana Paddhati Sri Siddha Krishna Das Babaji compiled Sadhan-amrita-candrika, which combines upasak poriskriti, lila smaran, archana, dhyan and sadhu kritya, all in one book. These three have been recognized since as the original Archana Paddhati of the Gaudiya Sampradaya commonly referred to as Paddhati-traya.

It is to draw attention to the authority of Sri Gopal Guru and Dhyan-candra Goswami that Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura includes them in his Jaiva-dharma. In the narrative story Gopal Guru is given the important role of Sri Guru Gosvami who awards Siddha-pranali to his qualified disciple Vijaya Kumar. Thakur Bhaktivinod thus supports Gopal Guru Gosvami, the authenticity of Siddha-pranali, and its important function as well.

What is Siddha-pranali?

There are eleven specific items (ekadas-bhava) which comprise one’s Manjari-svarupa.

This is explained in Sri Gopal Guru and Sri Dhyan-candra Goswami’s Archana Paddhatis:

Asyaiva siddhadehaysya sadhanani jatakramam

ekadasa prasidhani lakhyantehati monoharam

nama rupam bayo beshah sambandho jutha eva ca

ajna seva parakastha palyadasi nivasakah

The eleven features comprising one’s siddha-deha are as follows:

name, form age, dress

relationship, group, order seva,

highest ambition, residence and the sakhi one serves under.

In the latest chapter of Sri Harinam-cintamini Thakura Bhaktivinoda also gives the same list:

Sadhite ujjvala rasa, ache bhava ekadas

Sambandha, bayas, nama, rupa

Jutha, besh, ajna, vasa, seva parakasthasvas

Palyadasi ei aparupa

“In order to fulfill one’s ambitions for attaining madhura rasa there are eleven items:

relationship, age, name, form,

group, dress, order, residence,

seva, highest ambition and the sakhi one serves under.”

How does one receive ekadas bhava?

Thakur Bhaktivinod answers as follows:

Sadhaker jakhon raganugamarga lobha hoy, takhan

sadgtzur nikata prarthana korile tini sadhaker

ruci parikha koriya tahar bhajan nirnoyer

sange sange siddha deher paricaya koriya diben

When the sadhak’s lobha is awakened for Raganuga bhakti he will approach his Gurudeva with great humility.

After testing the disciple’s sincerity the bonafide Guru will instruct the disciple and adjust his bhajan according to the identity of his siddha svarupa.”

Siddha-Pranali

Throughout his extensive writings Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura speaks about the system of Siddha-pranal in many places, particularly in three major works:

Caitanya-shiksamrita

Jaiva-Dharma and

Harinama-ciintamani.

In Gita-mala the Thakura has even disclosed his spiritual identity in eleven phases.

Such mercy is seldom seen in the Vaishnava world; for traditionally Gaudiya-Vaishnavas keep secret the confidential matters concerning their personal svarupa.

Srila Narottam Das Thakur warns in this regard:

apana bhajana katha nakahibe jata tatha

ihate hoibe sabdhan

“One should be careful not to speak one’s personal bhajan-katha here and there.”

Why would Bhaktivinoda Thakur reveal his apana bhajan katha and the topics concerning siddha-pranali in his foremost books which are read by thousands?

His pen surely sought reform for the future. On one hand Srila Bhaktivinoda’s teachings begin with basic principles to ideally preach to the masses. But on the other hand, we find the Thakura himself a mature rasika-Bhagavat who strongly realizes the necessity to preach even the most confidential aspects of Gopi-anugata-bhajan.

To inform the Vaishnava community at large, the didn’t hesitate to write about siddha-pranali and its importance. Then for his future intimate followers, he also disclosed the details of his own svarupa. (Without having done so, it would not have been possible for others to follow in his footsteps on the Raganuga path.) Thakura Bhaktivinoda is acclaimed as the jpioneer who inaugurated the mass preaching of Vaisnava Dharma in the Western countries. It would surely be unfortunate, therefore, to overlook manjari-sadhana and Siddha-pranal which are part and parcel of Srila Bhaktivinoda’s broad vision: for in the Thakura’s opinion these items are essential for every progressing Rupanuga practitioner.

[url="http://spirituality.forumup.de/viewtopic.php?t=255&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0&mforum=spirituality"]

Dear sucandra-ji dandavata,

You wrote:

It is this daiva-varṇāśrama that should be established all over the world to continue a perfect society for Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

This may be astonishing to foolish critics, but it is one of the functions of a Kṛṣṇa conscious society." Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 5.1.24 purport

My reply was:

Making such offensive statements, by copying the offensiveness from “Prabupada”, it doesn’t legitimate this dogma introduced by him.

Among his most important “foolish critics”, as “Prabhupada” put it, are

• <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> Himself:

sarva-dharmān parityajya / mām ekaḿ śaraṇaḿ vraja

ahaḿ tvāḿ sarva-pāpebhyo / mokṣayiṣyāmi mā śucaḥ (Bhagavad-gita 18.66)

• Mahaprabhu Himself:

nAhaM vipro na ca narapatir nApi vaizyo na zUdro

nAhaM varNI na ca gRhapatir no vanastho yatir vA |

kintu prodyan-nikhila-paramAnanda-pUrNAmRtAbdher

gopI-bhartuH pada-kamalayor dAsa-dAsAnudAsaH ||

• Srila Vyasadeva

dharmah ̣projjhita-kaitavo 'tra paramo nirmatsarāṇāḿ satāḿ

vedyaḿ vāstavam atra vastu śivadam ́tāpa-trayon mūlanam

śrīmad-bhāgavate mahā-muni-kṛte kiḿ vā parair īśvaraḥ

sadyo hṛdy avarudhyate 'tra kṛtibhiḥ śuśrūṣubhis tat-kṣaṇāt

• Jiva Gosvami

na dharmaM nAdharmaM zruti-gaNa niruktaM kila kuru

vraje rAdhA-kRSNa pracura-paricaryAm iha tanu

zacI-sUnuM nandIzvara-pati-sutatve guru-varaM

mukunda-preSThatve smara param ajasraM nanu manaH

• Rupa Gosvami:

atyAhAraH prayAsaz ca prajalpo niyamAgrahaH

jana-saGgaz ca laulyamM ca SaDbhir bhaktir vinazyati

Your answer:

We should somehow humbly try to follow Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu's example, Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu was a great scholar. There is no doubt of it. But in spite of His becoming a great scholar, He is presenting Himself as a great fool. He says, “My Guru Mahārāja saw Me a great fool”. Even one is very great scholar, he has to abide by the decision of his spiritual master.

My reply:

• Being offensive is not the way of humbleness.
  
• Being offensive and praising humbleness is … hypocrisy.
  
• This example of Sri Caitanya does not really represent your position because:

- even if it is true that this “Prabhupada –idea” is wrong, (even if not as wrong as that of an advaita-vadi – the sannyas guru of Mahaprabhu)

but

- you cannot be compared with Caitanya Mahaprabhu … as being a great scholar, or a humble person, who presents himself as a fool

and

<!--[if !supportLists]-->-<!--[endif]-->Sri Caitanya never abode on the wrong opinions of his sannyasa “guru” and also never identified Himself as being a sannyasi,

<!--[if !supportLists]--><!--[endif]-->- and following His example one should get rid of any upadhis – material social designations, as He openly declared regarding the position of a devot of Radha-Krishna, that He took.

"[...]It is this daiva-varṇāśrama that should be established all over the world to continue a perfect society for Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This may be astonishing to foolish critics, but it is one of the functions of a Kṛṣṇa conscious society." Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 5.1.24 purport

 

Dear sucandra-ji dandavata,

Making such offensive statements, by copying the offensiveness from “Prabupada”, it doesn’t legitimate this dogma introduced by him.

Among his most important “foolish critics”, as “Prabhupada” put it, are

• <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> Himself:

sarva-dharmān parityajya / mām ekaḿ śaraṇaḿ vraja

ahaḿ tvāḿ sarva-pāpebhyo / mokṣayiṣyāmi mā śucaḥ (Bhagavad-gita 18.66)

• Mahaprabhu Himself:

nAhaM vipro na ca narapatir nApi vaizyo na zUdro

nAhaM varNI na ca gRhapatir no vanastho yatir vA |

kintu prodyan-nikhila-paramAnanda-pUrNAmRtAbdher

gopI-bhartuH pada-kamalayor dAsa-dAsAnudAsaH ||

• Srila Vyasadeva

dharmah ̣projjhita-kaitavo 'tra paramo nirmatsarāṇāḿ satāḿ

vedyaḿ vāstavam atra vastu śivadam ́tāpa-trayon mūlanam

śrīmad-bhāgavate mahā-muni-kṛte kiḿ vā parair īśvaraḥ

sadyo hṛdy avarudhyate 'tra kṛtibhiḥ śuśrūṣubhis tat-kṣaṇāt

• Jiva Gosvami

na dharmaM nAdharmaM zruti-gaNa niruktaM kila kuru

vraje rAdhA-kRSNa pracura-paricaryAm iha tanu

zacI-sUnuM nandIzvara-pati-sutatve guru-varaM

mukunda-preSThatve smara param ajasraM nanu manaH

• Rupa Gosvami:

atyAhAraH prayAsaz ca prajalpo niyamAgrahaH

jana-saGgaz ca laulyamM ca SaDbhir bhaktir vinazyati

Dear Anandi, _/\ò_

surely when presenting a personal opinion it should be respected, but when it comes to follow the teachings of the Brahma-Madhava-Gaudiya-Sampradaya there is no such thing as respecting personal opinions, au contraire, personal opinions are somehow kicked out, ...

or as Prabhupada says: "This may be astonishing to foolish critics, but DVD is one of the functions of a Krishna conscious society".

Dear sucandra-ji dandavats.

You also wrote:

Daivi varnashrama was the order of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Maharaja and Prabhupada repeats the same.

Reply:

Can you please provide quotes where Bhaktisidhanta Sarasvati gave the instruction of implementing daivi varanashrama dharma?

You wrote:

Since you are a disciple of Srila Prabhupada you clearly reject the teachings of your guru.

Reply:

I am not a disciple of "Srila Prabhupada".

I don't reject persons, but their opinions, if they go against the teachings of Sri Caitanya and His personally empowered representatives,

... and those who follow in their unbroken chain of disciples.

Dear Brajeswara, dandavats

you wrote:

Anadi Prabhu: I would never claim to be a servant of the servant but wish to aspire reach that position after many, many lifetimes.

Reply

Yoga means: do it now. One should never think in terms of many lifetimes. Success depends on one’s greed to attain the goal. The stronger the desire, the stronger are the endeavors, and Krishna will reward accordingly.

you wrote:

My actual position is I am a servant of my senses and my own false ego, and even when I think I'm feeling devotion it is more likely emotion.

Reply

Understanding our position and being humble surely helps in making more progress in sadhana bhakti, and not lying ourselves and others.

you wrote:

If you feel you can make the claim of being a devotee then good for you. I don't consider that an easy position to attain.

Reply

Generally there are three types of devotees as delineated by Rupa Gosvami in the fifth verse of Upadesha-amrita. According his statement (and Mahaprabhu’s as recorded in CC) I hope I could fit in the neophyte category, if you are interested in anadi’s position, but generally one should not discuss persons but the principles exposed by persons, analyzing those exposed principles according shastra and other evidence based on it.

By this one never incurs sin.

Dear Murali Mohan dasa-ji dandavats,

you wrote:

I don't know where you get this obsession with reading, Prabhu, but, is reading one of the limbs of devotion? No!!!!

Sravanam, Kirtanam, Vishnu-Smaranam...NOWHERE IS READING MENTIONED!!!

answer:

• You should consider that reading is kirtana
  
• Kirtan includes in it sravana (be it through external sound or internal sound on the level of the mind)

you also wrote:

There is no requirement for reading.

Reply:

1. As much as I remember your guru said the practitioner should read shastra.

2. Is very hard to learn siddhanta and get attached to <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> without to read about His glories, all over again, and learn by heart the verses that uphold one from the basic principles of Bhagavad-gita through Bhgavatam and Caitanya Caritamrita/Caitanya Bhagavat up to Vilapa Kusumanjali and Radha Rasa Sudhanidhi

you also wrote:

The illiterate street-sweeper that has got the seed of devotion and waters that seed dutifully is far more advanced than the faithless person who can recite Mahabharat from memory.

Answer:

Here you make a logical mistake.

The question is not who is more advanced, according attainment or not of shraddha, but if reading shastra is beneficial or not for bhakti.

<st1:city><st1:place>Reading</st1:place></st1:city> is very important.

• Only once hear it won’t do it.
  
• You should consider that reading is kirtana and should (could) be done for the pleasure of one's Deities.
  
• Kirtan includes in it sravana (be it through external sound or internal sound on the level of the mind)
  
  siddhānta baliyā citte nā kara alasa |
  ihā ha-ite kṛṣṇe lāge sudṛḍha mānasa || (c cAdi 2.117)
  
  Do not be lazy nā kara alasa to take into consideration baliyā in your mind / or to have attachment citte for the perfect conclusions (of the shastra) siddhānta.
  By this (attachment) ihā ha-ite the mind mānasa becomes firmly sudṛḍha fixed lāge on Krishna kṛṣṇe.

In your example, reciting Mahabharata from memory is so glorious, that only a very exceptional, and highly qualified personality could do it; One should be careful in naming such a person a faithless.

You also wrote:

We must read in the scripture (contrary to what our Guru has ordered) about the pastimes of the Gopis?

Answer:

If your guru ordered you like this, follow your guru.

As regarding myself, as long as guru spoke about the honey, and by that made me somehow greedy to hear more about it, and now he tells me to forget about that because we have to implement varnashram dharma, than I am frustrated.

And I am not the only one…. But still I am very grateful to him, for that he gave me.

you wrote:

Just how pitifully weak is your faith, Dear Sir (is it as weak as mine?)? Do you think the Lord cannot speak directly to the hearts of his sincere servants? Laughable!!!

Answer:

This is the level of bhava bhakti. I am on the level of sadhana bhakti.

One might wonder why, if Radharani is really so kind, she kept Baba weeping for 40 years? Could she not appear before him earlier? She could. But could Baba really see Her then? She is not made of flesh and bones, which our eyes can see. She is made of love, She is Love personified. In order to see Her, one must have the eyes of love. Love does not develop in a heart, which is impure. The heart has to be purified by sadhana. The best sadhana is weeping in separation. The tears that flow in remembrance of Radha and <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> wash away all sins and offences (aparadhas), and the fire of separation that burns in the heart consumes the wild growth of all sorts of worldly desires. It is then that the ground is prepared for the seed of love to sprout and grow. When the seed grows and blossoms. Radha and <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> cannot remain indifferent. They are automatically drawn to it by its fragrance.

You also quote me, without directly commenting it.:

SBV Narayan M said: “Then, as chanting, remembering, and performing kirtana cleanse these anarthas, all the pastimes of Krsna will automatically enter your hearts.”

But If you don’t read about the pastimes of the Lord with the gopis, how can you remember them?

This is not the process recommended by the shastra.

Krishna says cleary that according what you remember, that is what you get.

According that what you worship/ remember /meditate on, you will get the result.

My Answer:

I showed in my previous posts that

1. One cannot remember that what one has no information about it ( one didn't hear or read about it).

2. Raganuga sadhana bhakti by which one practice this remembrance and meditation comes not out of vaidhi bhakti.

3. For the new ones on raga marga, the combination of it with the angas of vaidhi bhakti is a must, for the advanced ones it is not, but

4. by no means by practicing vaidhi bhakti, one will automatically come in raga marga, as Rupa and Jiva Gosvami deliniated in their works.

<table class="MsoNormalTable" style="width: 126.6%;" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr style=""> <td style="border: 1pt solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding: 4.5pt 18pt; background: rgb(224, 224, 224) none repeat scroll 0% 50%; width: 100%; -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial;" width="100%"> Originally Posted by anadi

"If you try to remember the asta-kaliya-lila before you are purified, the desire for young women and other material things will rise in your heart."

In this connection Srimad Bhagavatam states clearly:

vikrIDitaM vraja-vadhUbhir idaM ca viSNoH |

zraddhAnvito yaH zRNuyAd atha varNayed vA ||

bhaktiM parAM bhagavati parilabhya kAmaM |

hRd-rogam Azv apahinoty acireNa dhIraH || (bhag. 10.33.39)

“One who faithfully hears or describes the loving sports of Sri Krishna and the young maidens of Vraja

will quickly drive away the heart-disease of lust, become sober, and attain the highest bhakti for the Lord.”

</td> </tr> </tbody></table>

your reply:

Yes, Anadi Prabhu, the verse is very clear. It states that one must hear with *faith*.

Dear Murali Mohan dasa-ji dandavats,

1. The verse doesn’t only applies not only for those who hear with faith, but also for those who describe this lilas with faith.

you also commented:

Do *you* have the requisite faith???? Does everybody who cares to hear have that faith???

Reply:

First faith in what?

I have faith in the message of Mahaprabhu, faith that:

ArAdyo bhagavAn vrajeza-tanayas tad dhAma vRndAvanam

ramya kAcid upAsanA vraja-vadhU-vargeNa ya kalpitA

zrImad bhAgavataM pramANam amalaM premA pumArtho mahAn

ZrI caitanya mahAprabhor matam idaM tatrAdhara naH paraH

The worshipable object – aradya (is that) Supreme Lord –bhagavan

born from the body of – tanayas the Lord of Braja – Vraja-ISa(referece to Nanda Maharaja and of course mother Yazoda, whose son is that “naravata lila kRSNa” – Krishna of “human like” pastimes, or madhur Krishna – the sweetest Krishna, not the Mathura-natha Krishna - “Krishna of Majesty and opulence” - who appeared in the mind of Vasudeva and was transferred in the womb of Devaki, but that Krishna that was really born from the body of mother Yazoda) and

His holly abode Vrindavan is in the same way worshipable - tad dhama vrndavanam.

Of any kind – kacit of worship – upasana ,

the most pleasing (for the Lord) – ramya

is the path shown - vargena ya kalpita

by the married women of vraja (the gopis) – vraja vadhu

(who renounced even the religious principles of dharma, just to please <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>, a path which is not possible for Sri Laxmi) .

Srimad Bhagavatam is the pure, spotless - amalam evidence - pramanamandpremA – the divine ecstatic love (of <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>)

is the highest goal of humankind - pumartho mahan (beyond karma, artha, <st1:place>kama</st1:place> and moksha).

These (concisely) comprise the opinion (the teachings) – matam idam of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and

we don’t have attachment – nah adhara for any other (type of worship oder teaching)- tatra paraha.

Though the direct cause for the awakening of greed is the hearing of narrations about the Vraja-pastimes of Sri Krishna,

one must also give due consideration to the foundational cause of the phenomena.

This direct cause - hearing, I personally experienced through the grace of SBV Narayan, who bestowed some mercy on his disciples by presenting short narrations to stimulate the greed of the audience for attaining such a love as that of the manjaris.

Maybe due to long term association with iskcon people, critics, and initiating many people with no knowledge of bhakti, he did it less and less.

kRSNa tad bhakta kAruNya mAtra lobhaika hetukA |

puSTi mArgatayA kaizcid iyaM rAgAnugocyate || (brs 1.2.309)

“The only causes of the appearance of sacred greed are the mercy of Sri Krishna or the mercy of His devotee.

Therefore some also call the path of raganuga-bhakti with the name pusti-marga (the path of grace).”

Though the paths of vaidhi and raganuga are two distinct paths, the practice of vaidhi-bhakti can offer indirect support for the awakening of the eligibility for raganuga-bhakti, its various practices being agents which assist in the purification of the heart. In addition to grace, a certain lucidity of awareness is necessary to facilitate the appearance of the aforementioned greed.

ajAta-tAdRza-rucinA tu sad-vizeSAdara-mAtrAdRtA rAgAnugApi vaidhI-saMvalitaivAnuSTheyA | tathA loka-saMgrahArthaM pratiSThitena jAta-tAdRza-rucinA ca | atra mizratve ca yathA-yogyaM rAgAnugayaikI kRtyaiva vaidhI kartavyA ||

(Bhakti-sandarbha 312)

“Those in whom such taste (ruci for raga marga) has not awakened, but who have a special interest for it, should engage in a mixture of raganuga and vaidhi.

For the sake of establishing an example for the people of the world, the one in whom such ruci has awakened will do the same.

Therefore, as appropriate, raganuga should be performed together with vaidhi.”

Dear Murali Mohan dasa-ji dandavats,

You aksed me:

Anadi Prabhu, can you provide shastric evidence (pardon me if you have already done so and I missed it) that traditional Gaudiya Siddhanta disagrees that Raganuga comes spontaneously after faithfully following vaidhi?

Here they are some shastric evidence:

The practice of devotion is divided into two distinct paths.

vaidhI rAgAnugA ceti sA dvidhA sAdhanAbhidhA || (brs 1.2.5)

“Practice (sadhana) is of two kinds, namely vaidhi and raganuga.”

The word “vaidhi” is derived from the Sanskrit word “vidhi”, referring to the commandments of the scriptures. The word “raganuga” is a compound of two words, namely “raga”, “loving attachment”, and “anuga”, “following in the wake of”. The general characteristics of these two paths are explained as follows:

vaidhi-bhaktir bhavet zAstraM bhaktau cet syAt pravartakam |

rAgAnugA syac ced bhaktau lobha eva pravartakaH || (rvc 1.3)

“When devotion is caused by scriptural injunctions, it is called vaidhi-bhakti (sadhana), but when its cause is spiritual greed alone, it is called raganuga-bhakti (sadhana).”

yatra rAgAnavAptatvAt pravRttir upajAyate |

zAsanenaiva zAstrasya sA vaidhI-bhaktir ucyate || (brs 1.2.6)

“That devotion which knows no attachment or greed, but which is prompted by the commandments of the scriptures, is called vaidhi-bhakti (sadhana).”

virAjantIm abhivyaktaM vrajavAsi-janAdiSu |

rAgAtmikAm anusRtA yA sA rAgAnugocyate || (brs 1.2.270)

“The devotion which is clearly present in the associates of the Lord in Vraja is called devotion filled with loving attachment (ragatmika-bhakti),

and devotion following in the wake of this ragatmika-bhakti is called raganuga-bhakti.”

As one desires to approach the Lord, so the Lord will approach the aspirant. (bg 4.11)

ye yathā māḿ prapadyante /tāḿs tathaiva bhajāmy aham

mama vartmānuvartante / manuṣyāḥ pārtha sarvaśaḥ

The way one surrenders unto Me, accordingly I reciprocate. Everyone follows My path in all respects, O son of Pṛthā.

Whatever one meditates, remembers at the time of death, that he will attain without fail. (bg 8.6)

yaḿ yaḿ vāpi smaran bhāvaḿ / tyajaty ante kalevaram

taḿ tam evaiti kaunteya / sadā tad-bhāva-bhāvitaḥ

Whatever state of being one remembers when he quits his body, O son of Kuntī, that state he will attain without fail.

Reflecting on these famous words of the Bhagavad Gita, one can easily understand that varieties of goals are attained in accordance with one's desires. It is not that all paths lead to the same goal.

vaidhI-rAgAnugA-mArga-bhedena parikIrtitaH |

dvividhaH khalu bhAvo’tra sAdhanAbhinivezajaH || (brs 1.3.7)

“The paths of vaidhi and raganuga are known to be separate from each other. Engagement in these two forms of practice certainly awakens two distinct varieties of bhava.”