anadi

Jiva never leaves Krishna's abode. See the thread with another simple logical question pertaining of Krishna having a demoniac side.

I would have never waited such an answer from you.

Demonic is a material feature rising from the contact with the illusory energy of the Lord. Sri Krishna does not come in direct contact with the illusory feature of His para Sakti. Sri Krishna is always in pure, transcendental goodness, Suddha satva and pure bliss as His own transcendental realm and His associates, in all three categories (caya viuha, nitya siddha, sadhana siddha). As a sadhana siddha to come in the spiritual world means that the real object of love (The all Attractive one - Sri Krishna) has revealed Himself into one’s heart, by those missing two inches that were needed to tie Damodhara, one’s sadhana, and the mercy of Krishna. Suddha-sattva-viSeZAtmA prema-sUryAMsu-sAmyabhAk rucibhis-citta-mAsRNya-kRd asau bhAva ucyate When in the heart the pure goodness Suddha-sattva and the pure love – hladini Shakti whose Presiding transcendental Deity is Radha come together, the rays of the sun of prema (pure love) - prema-sUryAMsu is manifested sAmyabhAk and a mellow of tastes – rucibhis are melting completely– mAsRNya the heart – citta … ( Bhakti-rasAmRta-sindhu, 1.3.1) Even one who attained bhava is beyond the modes of material nature, and has no other wish than to attain the deities of his mantra. In the spiritual world there is no influence of the external illusory potency (maha) maya, namely there is no influence of the goodness, passion and ignorance of this world. How can any associate of Krishna be influenced by envy, when there is no envy (no material modes of nature) in the spiritual world?, No acarya wrote such a thing!

LAhiri MahASaya then raised a doubt: “BhagavAn has a form. Since form is limited by spatial considerations, how can BhagavAn be the resting place of the limitless and all-pervading brahma?” BAbAji MahArAja resolved his doubt, saying, “In the material world, the entity known as the sky is also limitless; why should brahma be considered to be more important, merely because it is limitless? BhagavAn is also limitless, by virtue of the potency manifested from the effulgence of His limbs. At the same time, He possesses His own transcendental form. Can any other entity compare with this? It is because of this unparalleled nature that BhagavAn is superior to the principle of brahma. “ <font color="red"> His transcendental form is supremely attractive, and that selfsame form is fully and completely all-pervasive, omniscient, omnipotent, unlimitedly merciful and supremely blissful.</font color> Which is superior— a form such as this , which is endowed with all qualities, or an obscure, all-pervading existence, which is devoid of qualities and potencies? In reality, brahma is only a partial, impersonal manifestation of BhagavAn. The impersonal and personal features both exist simultaneously and in perfect harmony in BhagavAn. (Quelle: Jaiva Dharma by Srila B Vinoda Thakura)

Some persons, distorting the meaning of the instruction that one should perform bhajana in the wake of the residents of Vraja, consider themselves as Lalita, ViSakha or others. Although males, they adopt a female dress and perform bhajana making themselves out to be sakhis. By such practices they destroy themselves and others. They think, “I am Lalita”, “I am ViSakha”. This attitude leads to ahaNgrahopasana of the mayavadis, a type of worship in the course of which one considers himself to be identical with the object of worship. Such persons become offenders at the feet of Lalita and ViSakha and fall down to a most dreadful hell. (commentary from the same book by Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja)

Babaji said, “The highest fruit of attainment for the Vaishnavas is the development of bhava, the first sprout of prema (pure love of God) and the basis for all transcendental emotions. However, that state of bhäva must be pure. Even a single drop of shuddha (pure) bhAva can fulfill the highest aspiration of the jiva, but (for example) the display of emotions by those who are polluted with the jNana (knowledge) that is aimed at attaining nirvishesha (without qualities)-brahma (pure light) is a great calamity for the jivas. The devotional sentiments of people who feel that they are one with brahma are merely a cheating display. Therefore, sambandha-jnana is absolutely essential for pure devotees.” (Quelle: Jaiva Dharma by Srila B Vinoda Thakura)

Babaji said, “The highest fruit of attainment for the Vaishnavas is the development of bhava, the first sprout of prema (pure love of God) and the basis for all transcendental emotions. However, that state of bhäva must be pure. Even a single drop of shuddha (pure) bhAva can fulfill the highest aspiration of the jiva, but (for example) the display of emotions by those who are polluted with the jNana (knowledge) that is aimed at attaining nirvishesha (without qualities)-brahma (pure light) is a great calamity for the jivas. The devotional sentiments of people who feel that they are one with brahma are merely a cheating display. Therefore, sambandha-jnana is absolutely essential for pure devotees.” (Quelle: Jaiva Dharma by Srila B Vinoda Thakura)

"I have heard from some Vaishnavas that one is a real Vaishnava only if he experiences the path of devotion through bhAva (emotions), so there is no need for knowledge. How much truth is there in this statement? Up until now I have simply tried to evoke emotions through the singing of hari-nAma saNkirtana; I have not made any attempt to understand sambandha-jnana.” (This is the question of Lahiri Mahasaya in the same book)

"I have heard from some Vaishnavas that one is a real Vaishnava only if he experiences the path of devotion through bhAva (emotions), so there is no need for knowledge. How much truth is there in this statement? Up until now I have simply tried to evoke emotions through the singing of hari-nAma saNkirtana; I have not made any attempt to understand sambandha-jnana.” (This is the question of Lahiri Mahasaya in the same book)

"So, Am I cheating Krishna if I lose control of my senses? " You are not in the position to cheat Krishna. Never think like this. But maybe you think you can cheat gurudeva. "On the contrary, I see so many who, as Syamarani has told, are covering what is there in their hearts. [Please see the end of this lecture for details] They think, "My Gurudeva doesn't know anything; he is foolish. I can cheat him." They don't say this directly, but they think in this way. They think they can bluff Maharaja or any pure devotee, but a pure devotee cannot be bluffed. He who can control Krsna - how can you bluff him? If he is really Guru, he can never be cheated or bluffed. You should know the identity of Guru. Srila Raghunatha dasa Gosvami has written in his Mana Siksa prayers, "Nadharmam nadharmam srutigana. O mind, you should always consider that Sri Sacinandana, Caitanya Mahaprabhu, is actually Brajendranandana Syamasundara, and He is actually Guru." Raya Ramananda told Mahaprabhu, "I am only your instrument. What I am speaking is only by your inspiration. You are speaking. The mouth is mine, but actually everything is being said by you." One may say, "I want to serve Mahaprabhu like the gopis: He is my beloved Mahaprabhu, and I am His beloved." Can we do this or not? This is sahajiya. This is called gauranga-nagari-bhava, and it is apa-siddhanta, against conclusive philosophical truth. We should not think in this way. Caitanya Mahaprabhu is Guru, and we should do whatever He orders. One day Vallabha Bhatta said to Advaita Acarya, "Why do you loudly chant Hare Krsna Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna Hare Hare, Hare Rama Hare Rama, Rama Rama Hare Hare? Every living entity is female and considers Krsna her husband. It is the duty of a chaste wife, devoted to her husband, not to utter her husband's name, but all of you chant the name of Krsna. How can this be called a religious principle?" Advaita Acarya responded, "In front of you is Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, the personification of religious principles. You should ask Him, for He will give you the proper answer." Hearing this, Mahaprabhu said, "My dear Vallabha Bhatta, you do not know religious principles. Actually, the first duty of a chaste woman is to carry out the order of her husband. The order of Krsna is to chant His name incessantly. Therefore one who is chaste and adherent to the husband, Krsna, must chant the Lord's name, for she cannot deny the husband's order. Following this religious principle, a pure devotee of Krsna always chants the holy name. As a result of this, he gets the fruit of ecstatic love for Krsna. My husband has ordered me to chant this. He has said, 'You should do this, and that will make Me happy.' I must make Him happy. I should serve Him." Hearing this, Vallabha Bhatta could not say a word. Previous to this, Vallabha Bhatta had told Mahaprabhu, "I have tried to describe elaborately the meaning of Krsna's holy name. Kindly hear the explanation." Caitanya Mahaprabhu replied, "I do not accept many different meanings for the holy name of Krsna. I know only that Krsna is Syamasundara and Yasodanandana. That's all I know. The only purport of the holy name of Krsna is that He is dark blue like a tamala tree and is the son of mother Yasoda. This is the conclusion of all the revealed scriptures. I conclusively know these two names, Syamasundara and Yasodanandana. I do not understand any other meanings, nor have I the capacity to understand them." Whatever Vallabha Bhatta said, Mahaprabhu simply replied in such away that he became speechless. He wanted to defeat Mahaprabhu and show his own glory. He wanted to show, "How qualified I am. How learned I am." But Caitanya Mahaprabhu is jagad- guru. Therefore, whatever He has ordered and whatever He has taught - we should try to follow totally. Mahaprabhu has told us, "You should chant Krsna's name. Hare Krsna." Actually Krsna has ordered this in the shape of Mahaprabhu, and therefore we must follow. Understand that Caitanya Mahaprabhu is Guru. He is Krsna Himself, with the mood of Radhika. It is very important to know this. Does anyone know anything in this world that can cover the knowledge of Mahaprabhu? Can anything be hidden from Him? Those who have this Guru, Mahaprabhu, in their hearts cannot be cheated or bluffed. Never, Those who try to bluff them will be bluffed. We should not try to cheat Guru or Vaisnavas. All Vaisnavas are Guru, and to do what they want is bhakti." Spoken by Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja 2001 Jan 24 - Murwillumbah

"So, Am I cheating Krishna if I lose control of my senses? " You are not in the position to cheat Krishna. Never think like this. But maybe you think you can cheat gurudeva. "On the contrary, I see so many who, as Syamarani has told, are covering what is there in their hearts. [Please see the end of this lecture for details] They think, "My Gurudeva doesn't know anything; he is foolish. I can cheat him." They don't say this directly, but they think in this way. They think they can bluff Maharaja or any pure devotee, but a pure devotee cannot be bluffed. He who can control Krsna - how can you bluff him? If he is really Guru, he can never be cheated or bluffed. You should know the identity of Guru. Srila Raghunatha dasa Gosvami has written in his Mana Siksa prayers, "Nadharmam nadharmam srutigana. O mind, you should always consider that Sri Sacinandana, Caitanya Mahaprabhu, is actually Brajendranandana Syamasundara, and He is actually Guru." Raya Ramananda told Mahaprabhu, "I am only your instrument. What I am speaking is only by your inspiration. You are speaking. The mouth is mine, but actually everything is being said by you." One may say, "I want to serve Mahaprabhu like the gopis: He is my beloved Mahaprabhu, and I am His beloved." Can we do this or not? This is sahajiya. This is called gauranga-nagari-bhava, and it is apa-siddhanta, against conclusive philosophical truth. We should not think in this way. Caitanya Mahaprabhu is Guru, and we should do whatever He orders. One day Vallabha Bhatta said to Advaita Acarya, "Why do you loudly chant Hare Krsna Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna Hare Hare, Hare Rama Hare Rama, Rama Rama Hare Hare? Every living entity is female and considers Krsna her husband. It is the duty of a chaste wife, devoted to her husband, not to utter her husband's name, but all of you chant the name of Krsna. How can this be called a religious principle?" Advaita Acarya responded, "In front of you is Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, the personification of religious principles. You should ask Him, for He will give you the proper answer." Hearing this, Mahaprabhu said, "My dear Vallabha Bhatta, you do not know religious principles. Actually, the first duty of a chaste woman is to carry out the order of her husband. The order of Krsna is to chant His name incessantly. Therefore one who is chaste and adherent to the husband, Krsna, must chant the Lord's name, for she cannot deny the husband's order. Following this religious principle, a pure devotee of Krsna always chants the holy name. As a result of this, he gets the fruit of ecstatic love for Krsna. My husband has ordered me to chant this. He has said, 'You should do this, and that will make Me happy.' I must make Him happy. I should serve Him." Hearing this, Vallabha Bhatta could not say a word. Previous to this, Vallabha Bhatta had told Mahaprabhu, "I have tried to describe elaborately the meaning of Krsna's holy name. Kindly hear the explanation." Caitanya Mahaprabhu replied, "I do not accept many different meanings for the holy name of Krsna. I know only that Krsna is Syamasundara and Yasodanandana. That's all I know. The only purport of the holy name of Krsna is that He is dark blue like a tamala tree and is the son of mother Yasoda. This is the conclusion of all the revealed scriptures. I conclusively know these two names, Syamasundara and Yasodanandana. I do not understand any other meanings, nor have I the capacity to understand them." Whatever Vallabha Bhatta said, Mahaprabhu simply replied in such away that he became speechless. He wanted to defeat Mahaprabhu and show his own glory. He wanted to show, "How qualified I am. How learned I am." But Caitanya Mahaprabhu is jagad- guru. Therefore, whatever He has ordered and whatever He has taught - we should try to follow totally. Mahaprabhu has told us, "You should chant Krsna's name. Hare Krsna." Actually Krsna has ordered this in the shape of Mahaprabhu, and therefore we must follow. Understand that Caitanya Mahaprabhu is Guru. He is Krsna Himself, with the mood of Radhika. It is very important to know this. Does anyone know anything in this world that can cover the knowledge of Mahaprabhu? Can anything be hidden from Him? Those who have this Guru, Mahaprabhu, in their hearts cannot be cheated or bluffed. Never, Those who try to bluff them will be bluffed. We should not try to cheat Guru or Vaisnavas. All Vaisnavas are Guru, and to do what they want is bhakti." Spoken by Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja 2001 Jan 24 - Murwillumbah

The fundamental conclusion is that only upon obtaining the aforementioned eligibility can the sadhaka undertake the discipline of raganuga-bhakti. By following this method of sadhana while still plagued with anarthas and without the appearance of genuine greed, the opposite effect will be produced. When genuine greed for vraja-bhajana arises, one should first of all take shelter of a dear devotee of Sri Gaurasundara, that Lord who is identical in every respect to Sri Vrajendra-nandana. The beloved devotees of Sri Caitanya will instruct us on the path of raganuga-sadhana in accordance with our eligibility. Otherwise, if one falls into bad association and by ill advice imitates the bhajana practices of those on the highest level of eligibility, then under the guise of adopting one’s siddha-deha one will incur only a harmful effect. (commentary from the same book by Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja)

The fundamental conclusion is that only upon obtaining the aforementioned eligibility can the sadhaka undertake the discipline of raganuga-bhakti. By following this method of sadhana while still plagued with anarthas and without the appearance of genuine greed, the opposite effect will be produced. When genuine greed for vraja-bhajana arises, one should first of all take shelter of a dear devotee of Sri Gaurasundara, that Lord who is identical in every respect to Sri Vrajendra-nandana. The beloved devotees of Sri Caitanya will instruct us on the path of raganuga-sadhana in accordance with our eligibility. Otherwise, if one falls into bad association and by ill advice imitates the bhajana practices of those on the highest level of eligibility, then under the guise of adopting one’s siddha-deha one will incur only a harmful effect. (commentary from the same book by Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja)

“Sambandha-tattva comprises Ishvara’s (Supreme Controler) relationship with the jivas (spiritual souls), the relationship of the jivas and of matter with Ishvara , and the relationship of Ishvara and of the jivas with matter . One who understands this sambandha-tattva completely is situated in sambandha-jnana, and one who does not have sambandha-jnana cannot become a pure Vaishnava (devotee of the Supreme Personality) by any means.” Source Jaiva Dharma by Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura, Chapter 4 - Vaishnava Dharma is nitya (eternal) dharma (true nature of the soul)

“Sambandha-tattva comprises Ishvara’s (Supreme Controler) relationship with the jivas (spiritual souls), the relationship of the jivas and of matter with Ishvara , and the relationship of Ishvara and of the jivas with matter . One who understands this sambandha-tattva completely is situated in sambandha-jnana, and one who does not have sambandha-jnana cannot become a pure Vaishnava (devotee of the Supreme Personality) by any means.” Source Jaiva Dharma by Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura, Chapter 4 - Vaishnava Dharma is nitya (eternal) dharma (true nature of the soul)

His identical manifestations and pastime forms, prakASa and vilAsa, are manifested by His superior potency known as parA-Sakti . This parA-Sakti displays its prowess (vikrama) in many different features, out of which only three are known to the jives (spiritual soul). The first is the internal potency, cid-vikrama , which arranges Sri Hari’s transcendental pastimes and everything related to them. The second is the marginal potency, jiva or taTastha-vikrama, which manifests and sustains innumerable jivas (spiritual souls). The third is the potency that creates bewilderment , mAyA-vikrama, which creates material time, material activities, and all the insubstantial objects of this world. Source Jaiva Dharma by Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura, Chapter 4 - Vaishnava Dharma is nitya (eternal) dharma (true nature of the soul)

His identical manifestations and pastime forms, prakASa and vilAsa, are manifested by His superior potency known as parA-Sakti . This parA-Sakti displays its prowess (vikrama) in many different features, out of which only three are known to the jives (spiritual soul). The first is the internal potency, cid-vikrama , which arranges Sri Hari’s transcendental pastimes and everything related to them. The second is the marginal potency, jiva or taTastha-vikrama, which manifests and sustains innumerable jivas (spiritual souls). The third is the potency that creates bewilderment , mAyA-vikrama, which creates material time, material activities, and all the insubstantial objects of this world. Source Jaiva Dharma by Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura, Chapter 4 - Vaishnava Dharma is nitya (eternal) dharma (true nature of the soul)

“In the VaikuNTha region of the spiritual sky, beyond this material universe, He manifests as NArAyaNa, His feature of supreme opulence and majesty . In Goloka VRndAvana, which is beyond VaikuNTha, He manifests as Gopijana-vallabha (the most dear of the gopis- cowheard girs), Sri KRSNacandra, His feature of supreme sweetness . His various types of expansions, such as identical manifestations (prakASa) and pastime forms (vilasa), are eternal and unlimited. Nothing and no one is equal to Him, what to speak of being superior to Him.” Source Jaiva Dharma by Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura, Chapter 4 - Vaishnava Dharma is nitya (eternal) dharma (true nature of the soul)

“In the VaikuNTha region of the spiritual sky, beyond this material universe, He manifests as NArAyaNa, His feature of supreme opulence and majesty . In Goloka VRndAvana, which is beyond VaikuNTha, He manifests as Gopijana-vallabha (the most dear of the gopis- cowheard girs), Sri KRSNacandra, His feature of supreme sweetness . His various types of expansions, such as identical manifestations (prakASa) and pastime forms (vilasa), are eternal and unlimited. Nothing and no one is equal to Him, what to speak of being superior to Him.” Source Jaiva Dharma by Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura, Chapter 4 - Vaishnava Dharma is nitya (eternal) dharma (true nature of the soul)

“Sri KRSNa Caitanya MahAprabhu, the original guru of the entire world, has explained that there are three fundamental principles in vaiSNava-dharma: sambandha-tattva, knowledge of one’s relationship with BhagavAn (the Lord); abhidheya-tattva , the means by which the ultimate goal is achieved; and prayojana-tattva , the ultimate goal of kRSNa-prema (sweetest love of God). A Suddha (pure)-vaiSNava or Suddha-bhakta is one who knows these three principles and acts in accordance with them. “The first principle, sambandha-tattva, includes three separate topics: The first topic is the material world (jaDa-jagat), or the fundamental truth regarding the potency that creates bewilderment (mAyika-tattva); the second topic is the living beings (jivas), or the fundamental truth regarding the predominated entities (adhinatattva); and the third topic is BhagavAn , or the fundamental truth regarding the predominating entity (prabhu-tattva). “Bhagavan is one without a second and endowed with all potencies. He is all-attractive, the exclusive abode of opulence and sweetness , and is the sole shelter for all jivas . Athough He is the only shelter of maya and all the jivas, still He is aloof and independent and exisits in His own supreme, independent form which is uncommonly beautiful . The effulgence of His limbs radiates to a great distance, manifesting as the nirvishesha-brahma (the white loving light realized by impersonalists). Through His divine potency known as aisha-shakti He manifests the jivas and the material world, and then enters into that world as ParamAtmA, who is His partial expansion. This is the fundamental truth concerning Ishvara, the supreme controller, or ParamAtmA, the indwelling Supersoul. (Source Jaiva Dharma by Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura, Chapter 4 - Vaishnava Dharma is nitya (eternal) dharma (true nature of the soul))

“Sri KRSNa Caitanya MahAprabhu, the original guru of the entire world, has explained that there are three fundamental principles in vaiSNava-dharma: sambandha-tattva, knowledge of one’s relationship with BhagavAn (the Lord); abhidheya-tattva , the means by which the ultimate goal is achieved; and prayojana-tattva , the ultimate goal of kRSNa-prema (sweetest love of God). A Suddha (pure)-vaiSNava or Suddha-bhakta is one who knows these three principles and acts in accordance with them. “The first principle, sambandha-tattva, includes three separate topics: The first topic is the material world (jaDa-jagat), or the fundamental truth regarding the potency that creates bewilderment (mAyika-tattva); the second topic is the living beings (jivas), or the fundamental truth regarding the predominated entities (adhinatattva); and the third topic is BhagavAn , or the fundamental truth regarding the predominating entity (prabhu-tattva). “Bhagavan is one without a second and endowed with all potencies. He is all-attractive, the exclusive abode of opulence and sweetness , and is the sole shelter for all jivas . Athough He is the only shelter of maya and all the jivas, still He is aloof and independent and exisits in His own supreme, independent form which is uncommonly beautiful . The effulgence of His limbs radiates to a great distance, manifesting as the nirvishesha-brahma (the white loving light realized by impersonalists). Through His divine potency known as aisha-shakti He manifests the jivas and the material world, and then enters into that world as ParamAtmA, who is His partial expansion. This is the fundamental truth concerning Ishvara, the supreme controller, or ParamAtmA, the indwelling Supersoul. (Source Jaiva Dharma by Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura, Chapter 4 - Vaishnava Dharma is nitya (eternal) dharma (true nature of the soul))

But one should always bear in mind that not everyone has the eligibility to perform yugala-seva by meditating in this way on Their supramundane ( aprakRta) daily pastimes. This practice must be concealed very diligently. One should not disclose these pastimes to ineligible persons. Until genuine greed to enter into the raga-marga arises in the heart of the jiva bound by matter, this subject should be kept hidden from him. One remains ineligible to hear the confidential pastimes of Sri Yugala, which are saturated with rasa, as long as the conception of the transcendental nature of the Lord’s name, form, qualities and pastimes has not implanted itself in the heart. In other words one should understand that the name, form, qualities and pastimes of Sri KRSNa are fully constituted of pure spiritual transcendence ( Suddha-cinmaya-svarupa). When ineligible persons hear or study these pastimes they recall only the illusory and mundane association of men and women and are thus compelled to fall down. Thus they sink down into the muck of debauchery. Therefore judicious students, proceeding cautiously, may enter into this lila after having obtained the appropriate impressions ( saMskaras ) for aprakRta-SRNgara-rasa. (commentary from the same book by Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja)

But one should always bear in mind that not everyone has the eligibility to perform yugala-seva by meditating in this way on Their supramundane ( aprakRta) daily pastimes. This practice must be concealed very diligently. One should not disclose these pastimes to ineligible persons. Until genuine greed to enter into the raga-marga arises in the heart of the jiva bound by matter, this subject should be kept hidden from him. One remains ineligible to hear the confidential pastimes of Sri Yugala, which are saturated with rasa, as long as the conception of the transcendental nature of the Lord’s name, form, qualities and pastimes has not implanted itself in the heart. In other words one should understand that the name, form, qualities and pastimes of Sri KRSNa are fully constituted of pure spiritual transcendence ( Suddha-cinmaya-svarupa). When ineligible persons hear or study these pastimes they recall only the illusory and mundane association of men and women and are thus compelled to fall down. Thus they sink down into the muck of debauchery. Therefore judicious students, proceeding cautiously, may enter into this lila after having obtained the appropriate impressions ( saMskaras ) for aprakRta-SRNgara-rasa. (commentary from the same book by Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja)

Is this from Scriptures? What scriptures?Is this from sadhu? What kind of sadhu? Is this from a conditioned soul? If so, than it belongs to the realm of speculation.

Is this from Scriptures? What scriptures?Is this from sadhu? What kind of sadhu? Is this from a conditioned soul? If so, than it belongs to the realm of speculation.