anadi

“The mature devotees, who have completely executed Krishna consciousness, are immediately transferred to the universe where Krishna is appearing. In that universe the devotees get their FIRST opportunity to associate with Krishna personally and directly. The training goes on, as we see in vRndävana-lila.” ( Krishna Book:Chapter Twenty-eight ) “The CONCLUSION is that no one falls from the spiritual world, or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode.” ( Srimad-BhAgavatam 3.16.26) This mount of ... He must have at least faith in "his" Prabhupada if not in Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura. <font color="blue"> Is useless to present any other arguments because he doesn't WANT to understand.</font color>

Some Iskcon leaders' problem is that after some time people leave this organization, like the disidents that left the comunist countries. Why did they leave? Oh, they were traitors, they have betrayed the Comunist Party, the country and the russian folk. What was this propaganda? They could fool all the people for some time. They could fool some people all the time. but They cannot fool all the people all the time. Is the same as this Iskcon propaganda. The ones that left they are traitors against Prabhupada. A transcendentalist is pleased when his pupil goes to an elevated spiritual master. A materialist is very unpleased when his pupil worked for him and than left in the west. This is not my problem. My duty is to preach the message of Mahaprabhu: go to the folowers of Rupa and the Gosvamis and take dikSa. Be sincere, humble, surrendered, realize sambandha in your daily sadhana, meditating on the goal of your sadhana, which is bhava in that particular sambandha that gurudeva gave you, learn siddhanta to please gurudeva and the VaiSnavas and realize all this truth BY THE MERCY OF THE REALIZED SOUL -YOUR GURUDEVA.

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Material view and transcendental view In his Bhagavad-gita Preface, Srila Prabhupada writes: “Some of them said that it is greatly fortunate for the Americans that <font color="red"> I have started </font color>the KRSNa consciousness movement in America. But <font color="blue"> actually the original father of this movement is Lord KRSNa</font color> Himself, since it was started a very long time ago, but is coming down to human society <font color="blue"> by disciplic succession. </font color>If I have any credit in this connection, it does not belong to me personally, but it is due to my eternal spiritual master, His Divine Grace oM viSNupAda paramahaMsa parivrAjakAcArya 108 Sri Srimad BhaktisiddhAnta Sarasvati GosvAmi Mahäräja PrabhupAda.” A pure devotee sees the thigs from the proper perspective.

Four months ago I was in Romania and I talked to some devotees there, who were waiting for some years for initiation, some left for a karmi life. Some read in the Web about Suhotra Svami and than left for astanga Yoga which is very powerful, and very good organized in almost every town in Romania. The matter of fact I was only one time in the temple, and I know the people there for about 12 years, but there was a very strange atmosphere, everybody was feared to say something, like in the old CeauSescu totalitarian times. I will not say what kind of things I've heard later from the ones that live outside, about what happends there. Anyway they still think their guru is a pure devotee, and what he says is law. So he says Gaudya Math are mayavadis and one should not talk to them, and GBC are pure devotees. and only the ones who follw Prabhupada AC Bhaktivedanta Svami are VaiSnavas, which means to follow Iskcon! Anyway Krishna gives everyone what he desires. Krishna is the bigest ...

Govindaram Prabhu, what I meant it was a new point in connection to the old "dikSa issue" related to the qualification to be a dikSa guru. The qualification for being a dikSa guru is highest. And because of lack of qualification, they say just OK! than we will make a law: there is no need of dikSa. Was that so complicated? PS Qhari Prabhu was not interested in our issue, but was focused on the qualification only.

I thaught you are one of them. I think I took you for somebody else that was (is)in this forum. vANchA-kalpa-tarubyaS ca kRpA-sindhubhya eva ca patitAnAM pAvanebhyo vaiSNavebhyo namo namaH

I put it simple. 1.Because of not being qualified to be a dikSa guru they say there is no need of dikSa. 2.But our acaryas say go to guru and take dikSa. PS But anyway you are a ritvik (guru drohi) and you are much more on the extreme than they are - no guru at all. Don't spit on the parampara! The parampara is always manifested - <font color="red"> prakata</font color>. Parampara doesn't mean something that it was and <font color="blue"> is finished</font color> .

Maybe this is why many people were told from their "guru", as far as I know from Germany and from Romania that there is no need of dikSa. But also in this forum were such discussions. At least in Romania Suhotra Svami told the temple president that there is no need of dikSa and he will give no more dikSa. Maybe this is duplicious. They don't recognize they are not qualified and that's why they say there is no need of dikSa. They go against parampara, guru and Sastra. And this ideea is backed up from higher management levels. Srila Rupa Gosvami says in UpadeSamRta krsneti yasya giri taµ manasAdriyeta <font color="blue"> dIKSAsti cet praNatibhiS ca bhajantam iSam</font color> SUSRuAayA bhajana-vijNam ananyam anya- NindAdi Sunya-hRdam Ipsita-saNga-labdhyA Adriyeta one should respect; manas. within the mind; Tam that person (a neophyte devotee); yasya giri in whose speech; iti thus (appears); kRSNa one name of KRSNa; <font color="blue"> praNatibhiH one should offer praNAma; ca also; bhajantam to an intermediate devotee who, (being endowed with the correct understanding of reality and illusion, performs bhajana in accordance with the VaiSNava conventions); Isam to his Istadeva; cet <font color="red"> if; asti -he has; dikSA accepted initiation from a qualified guru</font color>; </font color> SuSRuSayA one should do all types of service bhajana vijNam to a self-realised, expert mahA-bhAgavata (VaiSNava who performs bhajana of Sri RAdhA-KRSNa's eightfold daily pastimes by rendering service mentally; ananyam who is one pointed, exclusive devotee of Sri KRSNa; anya nindAdi Sunya hRdam and whose heart is free from faults (due to his undeviating absorption in KRSNa), labdhyA having obtained; Ipsita saNga the association for which one hankers (the association of a topmost devotee whose heart is established in the particular mood of service to Sri RAdhA-KRSNa for which one aspires and who is affectionately disposed towards oneself).

There was a compilation published on the Cakra website which attempted to show that Srila NArAyaNa MahArAja'S teachings are different from those of Çréla Prabhupäda. The compilation that was posted on Cakra is called “Understanding NArAyaNa MahArAja: his own words and other primary sources”, and it offers quotes by both Srila Prabhupada and Srila Narayana MahArAja. The following article explains these same quotes again. When quoting the compilation, we shall begin with the word COMPILATION, and we will begin our own statements with the word REFUTATION. Material view and transcendental view COMPILATION 1 : NArAyaNa MahArAja on A.C. BhaktivedAnta Swami PrabhupAda and ISKCON: <font color="red"> NArAyaNa MahArAja , Germany: December 12, 2001:</font color> “My SikzA-guru, nitya-lila-praviSTa oM viSNupAda Sri Srimad BhaktivedAnta Swami MahArAja.” <font color="red"> NArAyaNa MahArAja, MathurA: October 24, 1999: </font color> “We can glorify SwAmiji, BhaktivedAnta Swami MahArAja. But those who are falling down, how can they glorify him? They cannot glorify him, never; they are cutting. They are establishing that he was the founder of ISKCON, but I know that he was not founder; <font color="blue"> he was (is) one of the members of this in guru-paramparA </font color>. It was founded by KRSNa, and first AcArya was BrahmA, then NArada, then VyAsa. Only he has changed the name (for oficial registration) and he has preached these things in Western countries.”

GargacArya has also said (Srimad-BhAgavatam 10.8.14): “prAg ayaH vasudevasya kvacij jAtas tavAtmajaH – O Nanda MahArAja, at some time in the past, this son of yours appeared as the son of Vasudeva.” This is also logical. Although Sri KRSNa is the son of Nanda MahArAja He had appeared previously in the mind of Vasudeva MaharAja (Srimad BhAgavata 10.2.16): “AviveSAMSabhAgena mana Anaka-dundubheH – the expansion of Sri KRSNa appeared in the mind of Anaka-dundubhi, Vasudeva MahArAja.” In the same way, Sri KRSNa also appeared in the heart of VrajeSvara Nanda MahArAja but there is a specific distinction between the two appearances. The partial manifestation of Sri KRSNa who appeared in Vasudeva’s heart is called the full manifestation (pUrNa-prakASa), whereas the form who appeared in VrajeSvara Nanda MahArAja'S heart is called the most complete form of Sri KRSNa(pUrNatama-prakASa). Just before the appearance of Bhagavän Sri KRSNa, Nanda MahArAja began to have His darSana in his heart and everywhere else. The appearance of Sri KRSNa in the heart is not sufficient to attain Him as one’s son, however. Intense parental prema is also absolutely necessary. Such pure fatherly love is only found in VrajarAja Sri Nanda MahArAja. from the commentary of Srila Jiva Gosvami to Vers 1 Brahama Samhita

Brahma Samhita Vers 1 TRANSLATION AND EXPLANATION OF SRILA JIVA GOSVAMI’S TIKA (BHAVANUVADA) In aneka-janma-siddhAnAm, aneka means “many;” for many lifetimes the gopIs have been perfect in their prema. This proves that both the gopIs and Sri KRSNa have taken birth many times before. It is stated in Bhagavad-gItä (4.5): “bahUni me vyatItAni janmAni tava cArjuna – O Arjuna, both you and I have already taken birth many times.” Similarly, the gopIs and Nanda-nandana Sri KRSNa have also taken birth many times. GargacArya has also said (Srimad-BhAgavatam 10.8.14): “prAg ayaH vasudevasya kvacij jAtas tavAtmajaH – O Nanda MahArAja, at some time in the past, this son of yours appeared as the son of Vasudeva.” This is also logical. Although Sri KRSNa is the son of Nanda MahArAja He had appeared previously in the mind of Vasudeva MaharAja (Srimad BhAgavata 10.2.16): “AviveSAMSabhAgena mana Anaka-dundubheH – the expansion of Sri KRSNa appeared in the mind of Anaka-dundubhi, Vasudeva MahArAja.” In the same way, Sri KRSNa also appeared in the heart of VrajeSvara Nanda MahArAja but there is a specific distinction between the two appearances. The partial manifestation of Sri KRSNa who appeared in Vasudeva’s heart is called the full manifestation (pUrNa-prakASa), whereas the form who appeared in VrajeSvara Nanda MahArAja'S heart is called the most complete form of Sri KRSNa(pUrNatama-prakASa). Just before the appearance of Bhagavän Sri KRSNa, Nanda MahArAja began to have His darSana in his heart and everywhere else. The appearance of Sri KRSNa in the heart is not sufficient to attain Him as one’s son, however. Intense parental prema is also absolutely necessary. Such pure fatherly love is only found in VrajarAja Sri Nanda MahArAja.

can you identify yourself?

They are paryAyavAchi - synonyms and they refer to Ananda aspect of brahman They are the same and not the same. In tattva they are really the same, they both refer to Ananda but in rasa they are different. Ananda in Vrindavana is different from Ananda in Mathura or Dvaraka. The lokas <font color="red"> in the spiritual world are rasa lokas</font color> , they differ in rasa. <font color="blue"> Customarily, anyone who composed a song, verse, literary composition or poem about Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu first had to bring it to Svarupa Damodara Gosvami to be heard. svarupa-thani uttare yadi, lana, tanra mana tabe mahaprabhu-thani karaya sravana If passed by Svarupa Damodara Gosvami, it could be presented for Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu to hear. `rasabhasa' ha ya yadi `siddhanta-virodha, sahite na pare prabhu, mane haya krodha If there were a hint that <font color="red"> transcendental mellows overlapped in a manner contrary to the principles of the bhakti cult</font color> , Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu would not tolerate it and would become very angry. </font color>

Jaiva Dharma Prameya: Sakti-Tattva Apart from the three kinds of kriyA-Sakti (potency of activity) that I have described, svarUpa-Sakti also has three other types of function, named hlAdini, sandhini and samvit. They are described as follows in the DaSa-mUla (4): There are three functions of svarUpa-Sakti hlAdini, sandhini and samvit.. KRSNa remains perpetually immersed in the praNaya-vikAra of the hlAdinI-Sakti. Because of the confidential bhAvas evoked by saMvit-Sakti, He is ever-situated as rasika-Sekhara in relishing newer and newer rasa. That supremely independent pastime prince, Sri KRSNa, is ever drowned within the ocean of vraja-rasa in His transcendental bliss-filled abodes, headed by VRndAvana, which are manifest through sandhini-Sakti. All glories to Him!

CONCLUSION: Controversies arise in the VaiSNava community to clarify important philosophical points for the benefit of all concerned. siddhAnta baliyA citte nA kara alasa ihä ha-ite kRSNe lAge sudRDha mAnasa A sincere student should not neglect the discussion of such conclusions, considering them controversial, for such discussions strengthen the mind. Thus one’s mind becomes attached to Sri kRSNa. ( CC Adi lila 2.117) I pray that the points presented herein may serve all the members of ISKCON, which include Srila NArAyaNa MahArAja and his followers, so that they can work together as one family to preach the mission of Srila Prabhupäda and our previous äcäryas. VaiSNava kRpA leSa prarthi (begging for a slight trace of the mercy of the VaiSNavas), TridaNDi SvAmi BhaktivedAnta AraNya This article is a reply to the paper entitled “ISKCON’s position on Srila NArAyaNa MahArAja” by His Grace Badri-nArAyaNa Prabhu. The following article examines, one by one, the points made in that paper, in the light of scriptural evidence and the statementsof Srila Prabhupada himself. Statements of the ISKCON position paper will be refered to as OBJECTION, and ours as REFUTATION. For previous references see http://www.audarya-fellowship.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=hinduism&Number=61233&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1&vc=1

And what is the meaning of AhlAdini ? How can Ahladini be another name for hladini? Maybe hladini and Ahladini refers as adjectives to a similar object <font color="blue"> but to empasize different features</font color>. And they can refer only to Srimati Radhika.

"When He is fighting, the AhlAdinI-Sakti is there" <font color="blue"> A</font color>hlAdinI-Sakti reads <font color="red"> A - hlAdini </font color>which in sanskrit means without hladini, which means without Radha. One should read carefully. One should not speak against his paramguru, because one cannot read and understand <font color="blue"> </font color>

Srila Rupa Gosvami mentions the essence of all advice in UpadeSamRta tan-nAma-rUpa-caritAdi-sukirtanAnu- smRtyoH krameNa rasanA-manasi niyojya tiSThan vraje tad-anurAgi-janAnugAmi kAlaM nayed akhilam ity upadeSa-sAram One should live in Vraja tiSThan vraje <font color="blue"> Following the eternal residents of Vraja –jana- anugAmi</font color> who possess inherent spontaneous love for Sri KRSNa - anurAgi, and one should utilise all his time - kAlaM nayed by sequentially engaging the tongue and the mind - krameNa rasanA-manasi in meticulous chanting and remembrance of KRSN’s names, form, qualities and pastimes - tan-nAma-rUpa-caritAdi-sukirtanAnu-. smRtyoH <font color="blue"> This is the essence of all instruction - akhilam ity upadeSa-sAram.</font color>

This is also true but only according to tattva consideration. Which might be true but not for the Vrajavasis. And the highest truth is the truth of the Vrajavasis. For them Krishna is not God, He is a friend, a son, a lover. This is the highest truth, according to the consideration of rasa. For Yogi, jnani and the others He might be Got but not for His unaloyed pure devotees in the Highest Realm of Sprituality - Goloka Vrindavan. For you and for me Krishna is the Highest Personality of Godhead. By the way: Those blessed souls YaSoda Ma and Nanda Baba are not jivas like Devaki and Vasudeva (it has been extensively explained previously, but it might be that you cannot agree- understand that).

“RAdhA-KRSNa cannot be approached by the neophyte devotees; therefore temple worship according to regulative principles is offered to LakSmi-NarayaNa. Although there may be a RAdhA-KRSNa vigraha, or form, the worship of the neophyte devotees is acceptable as LakSmi-NarayaNa worship. (Srimad-BhAgavatam 4.24.45–46)

Thank you too for your help. anAdi

I thank you too, that Radha Krishna inspired you to ask such wonderful questions. And you are nice.

Apart the jivas there are direct expansions of Bhagavan, which are Bhagavan tattva and direct expansions of the Purna Sakti which serves Her in Her intimate dealings and are called kaya vyuha. Srila Bhaktivedanta Svami Maharaja is not in the category Bhagavan tattva, he is a kaya vyuha. In the same way the real parents of Braja kRSNa are <font color="blue"> direct expansion </font color>of the love of the purna Sakti, Srimati Radharani, they are <font color="blue"> kaya vyuha.</font color>

The jivas are coming from the glance of Maha ViSnu in TataStha Region between the cit and the acit world, like muster seeds would pouring on a sword blade. Some of them looking to the spiritual world, automaticly become atracted of it and the Lord fulfills their desire and endow them with the support of the hladini Sakti, and according their stayibhava go to a certain region of the spiritual sky. These jivas are called <font color="blue"> nitya siddha jivas</font color>. And they have no idea of the acit world. Those jivas who by looking at the acit world became attracted to it, get their desire fulfiled by the Lord of the heart who give them the suport of maha maya Sakti, and qualifies them through suitable suits (like ahankara, buddhi, mana) to acti in the acit world. This is the root of their offense. Being later rectified, performing sadhana under the guidance of the spiritual master they become perfected and are called <font color="blue"> sadhana siddhas </font color>(perfected by sadhana) <font color="red"> Details can be found in jiva tattva chapter of Jaiva Dharma</font color> Vasudeva and Devaki are <font color="red"> sadhana siddha jivas</font color> who attained the perfection of vatsalya rasa becoming servants of YaSoda Ma and Nanda Baba in Goloka Vrindavan. <font color="red"> The eternal parents of kRSNa are not jiva, they have never been in TataStha. They are direct expansions of Srimati Radhika. </font color> My gurudeva says that when Srimati Radhika loves Krishna in pure vatsalya prema, She takes the form of YaSoda mayia and Nanda baba. That is why sometimes YaSoda mayia seems to have so much more love for Radha than for kRSNa. But Gurudeva says that we cannot really understand these things. Srila BV Svami Prabhupada is not in the category of nitya siddha or sadhna siddha jivas. The jivas are not empowered to preach about Srimati Radhika's, sweet, tender love to her prananatha valabha. Srila Srila BV Svami Prabhupada says in the purport to CC Antya lila 1.24 "Our only desire should be to take birth under the care of a Vaisnava. Fortunately we had the opportunity to be born of a Vaisnava father who took care of us very nicely. He prayed to Srimati Radharani that in the future <font color="blue"> we would become a servant of the eternal consort of Sri Krsna. Thus somehow or other we are now engaged in that service." </font color>