sanatan

Guruvani, you spend much time here wasting bandwidth with your continual large-font pontification and criticism of others.

This is not becoming behavior for a senior devotee such as yourself.

All we really need is a few short peak experiences (within a moment Krsna conciousness can be had or not after millions of life-time) to bring around to full Krsna conciousness or we can waste a lot of time; maybe many lifetimes simply loitering in this world without full-blossoming Krsna conciousness.

Agree...but the problem is age-old and universal: "The Spirit is willing but the Flesh is weak".

Pankaja Prabhu...if you had really, truly wanted to kill yourself, you would have succeeded.

What I'm referring to is suicide as the result of profound psychotic depression, in which the sufferer has literally lost the normal reasoning faculties and accompanying sense of right and wrong. This state of mind may indeed evolve from a series of tragic events or heavy setbacks.

You're right, quoting scripture to a deeply-suicidal person or telling them that they'll come back as a ghost or cockroach or something like that won't help...drastic medical measures are required.

I've always heard that people who commit suicide become ghosts who wander aimlessly, without even the faculties posessed by the average ghost. Eventually they take another body, human or animal, depending. In any case, they don't go to hell for eternity, as Christianity teaches.

IMO, suicide is a karmic destiny for some people...it's the ultimate irrational act, and as such a person who does this would have to be profoundly mentally ill. Mental illness is very unfortunate and surely a symptom of heavy reactions that are manifesting in a person's life, but like all other states of material happiness and distress, it is temporary and does not affect the eternal soul.

HerServant....nice, informative perspective on Good Friday (I remembered!).

The question I've had about the relationship of Judas to Jesus...is this a "pastime" in the same sense that Vaisnava accounts are, where the parties involved are playing roles in order to demonstrate and establish a great principle of truth?

Seems to me that it was...in order for Jesus to complete his mission, he had to have an antagonistic person near him who would commit the act of betrayal.

Of course, traditional Christianity portrays Judas as the ultimate symbol of evil, who now rots eternally in the deepest pit of hell.

What's your take?

All Glories to Lord Jesus Christ!

Re: New Camaldoli Hermitage

Very cool place, HS.

Bookmarked for a stop on future CA trip.

Sorry for any offenses. Accept my dandavat appologies.

None taken here, prabhu. But your POV seems a little like that of the Christians you're criticizing.

Christ is not mentioned in vedas. Also he ate meat, so he cannot be considered as vaishnava. So vaishnavas immediately reject claims that he is God and all such nonsense. This is not a criticsm against christ, but against foolish idiots who say everyone who dont accept christ will burn in hell bla bla.

lighten up.

Quote--HerServant:

Now this tells us a great deal about the reasoning behind getting/giving initiated names. Prior to our own self realization, our initiation name is something like a promised identity. We receive this identity along with the hope, faith and prayers of our spiritual masters and in some cases our parents, that we can realize our true self and our true purpose (to know, to love and to serve God).

That's an insight I've neither had nor heard...very nice, thanks HS!

Those vids have to be 20 yrs old...contemporary with Rajneesh in America.

The eerie spook-house background music they play definitely adds some ominous atmosphere.

It's all typical demonization of anything but evangelical Protestantism...I noticed how those speaking said that Jesus "forbade" repetitive prayer, which Catholics also practice, and claimed it was based on the chanting of the names of "demon gods".

So much nectar in this thread that started with such meager beginnings. All Glories to all servitors of the Lord!

Indeed.

HerServant, it's so nice to have such a wonderful Christian voice here...once again, please accept my humble obeisances and...hang around!

I'm sorry to hear that you encountered negativity in response to mention of Jesus Christ in ISKCON temples; however, I'd guess that most of those that responded to you this way were simply displaying reactive emotions about past experiences with fundies and fanatics, not intentionally criticizing Jesus.

Being a recovering Christian-hater, I understand these things. Happily, I have now made some progress in reclaiming my Christian roots, but am still very disturbed at times by the fundamentalists who claim the Bible and their interpretation of the events therein as proprietary truth.

Regarding Bede Griffiths: I didn't know that he had encountered Dvaita-vedanta philosophy...did he read from Srila Prabhupada's Caitanya-caritamrta and Bhagavatam?

Sri Krishna Prem (British-born, appx. 1900-1967) was also a pioneering westerner in India. He took up the life of a Vaisnava Krishna-bhakta around 1925, a few years after serving in World War I and as a University professor in India, and never looked back.

Fr. Bede Griffiths writings I've read, and recommend:

Vedanta and Christian Faith

The Cosmic Revelation

Essential Writings (a compendium)

He was a great soul.

I didn't understand the Bible at all until assimilating the concepts of Vedanta, particularly Dvaita-vedanta or Krishna Consciousness.

Thank you!

Good to have you posting here, HerServant.

Many Christians that come on and post are spamming fanatics like Justasking ..IMO, they're just asking to be banned.

Almost. Calvin rejected a vast body of GSS (Guru Saddhu Sastra) tradition in Jesus' line. Regardless if pre-reformation Catholic/Orthodox churches had their share of politically problems, their remains in these traditions the GSS.

 

Calvin rejects much of this with his own speculations.

Yes, the reformation produced a new branch of Christianity that soundly rejected the GSS traditions of the Church.

What I was more referring to...even though a GSS tradition existed as the structure of pre-reformation Christianity, this had long been expunged of anything resembling Vedic thought, if it was ever present at all. Certainly the Christianity of those times did produce great saints, but the basics of Christian doctrine were much as they are today...devoid of the truths found in the Vedic line.

Calvin and other shapers of Protestant ideology had only this gutted tradition to work with, and therefore were starting from a point of basic ignorance...when ideas such as original sin, innate human depravity, and predestination are considered, it is very obvious that they are speculations born of a "poor fund of knowledge".

Born-Again Christians believe the Holy Spirit only lives in those who have accepted Jesus as their Lord and Saviour... unbelievers are called the children of Satan, not the Temple of God, by Jesus. Jesus told those people that rejected him as Lord they were of their father, Satan.

You're speaking doctrine developed by Christian theologians such as John Calvin. The problem is that they had no frame of reference save the Bible and Christian tradition.

If you read and study Bhagavad-gita, you will understand that this Calvinism is a speculative philosophy that evolved out of spiritual ignorance, and therefore is false.

The Lord who lives in the heart of all souls has granted us free will. He is the one who brings all our desires into existence. Identifying ourselves as the body we think we are the doers and creators of all that be. When in fact it is the Lord in the heart who is the one bringing our desires to existence.

 

If you are sincere in your desires to be separate from the world and the wordly, then surely the Lord out of his kindness will offer you this fruit.

 

At some point in your development you may need to separate. To become free from influence of the contamination of the material sphere. But at some further point in your development you may desire to see your God in all things.

 

If you sincerely desire to see God in all things, then out of His loving kindness you will see God in all things. Then you will be walking in the Kingdom of God. Where there is no place for judgement. Where everything is perfect and complete. In harmony. Where the environment is friendly and nurturing. Then you will be given spiritual eyes to see God in all things. You will no longer identify with material vision. Designating in material terms. Hindu, Christian, Muslim...

 

Do you desire this...deep in your heart?

Great post...Justasking, read and think deeply about it.

It was a little overwhelming (the to-do's and not to-dos)but someday I will hopefully get to that point, but I am excited to be there for Krishna.

Being excited to be there for Krishna will get you everything...go and enjoy your visit!

It's best if you don't wear leather products (coat, belt, shoes) or eat meat that day or wear the colours blue and red. Just dress well and clean as though you are about to meet God. He is sure to appreciate your sincerity.

It's not good to start out bogging down a new person with lengthy scriptural quotes and proscriptions intended for experienced devotees. I don't think Krishna really cares what a new visitor wears to the temple or what they've eaten that day...he's happy to see them there and pour on the mercy, no matter.

You are indeed correct about a reverent and sincere mental attitude...no matter what you eat or wear.

Objective and mostly non-political view: New design obviously easier to realize; it's nicely proportioned and reasonably simple but could still use some cleaning up; more sensible and humble; appropriate in light of the direction ISKCON is hopefully headed.

Thanks to those of you who have commented on my reply to the Christian spammer...your advice to me is from the spiritual world.

Yes, maybe I'm coming from the material/mental platform with what I've said, but still consider it relevant.

[url="http://www.christianaggression.org/item_display.php?type=ARTICLES&id=1170959532"]

Hare Krishna

So were Jagai and Madhai, even worse they were drunkards and barbarous, but through the great mercy of Nityananda Prabhu they received Mahaprabhu's mercy. We need to do the same if we wish to receive the mercy ourselves.

Once again, nice Vaisnava thoughts.

The problem with these aggressive Christians is that they do not care to learn anything or share one-on-one with those of other spiritual backgrounds. All they want to do is divide and conquer, and eventually transform America into a nation where forms of worship such as Gaudiya Vaisnavism, which they consider idolatrous and satanic, will be oulawed.

If you want to take a commendably tolerant yet naively passive approach to these people, that's your business. Personally, I feel that we as devotees have a way of life and worship to protect and defend, and won't hesitate to speak strongly when appropriate.

brajeshwara prabhu...good thoughts, thank you.

However, it is clear that this person is not here to share mercy, but to destroy and convert.

I stand by my previous statements.

...be tolerant, humble, and give honor to others... so simple but so hard to do. Dayal Nityananda, Gaura Haribol.

Which is the way I try to conduct my dealings with others. However, this person is clearly here to proselytize and denigrate, not engage in spiritual dialogue. Therefore, firm correction is in order.

Re: Non-Christians - how do you respond?

I still consider myself a Christian, so maybe responding isn't proper in this case...but I'll go ahead anyway.

just asking, you're obviously a spamming Bible thumper who goes from board to board with the same copy and paste line of baloney.

A good number of the people who have answered you here have been polite and accomodating ...I'm calling you out for what you are.

IMO, you have no business posting here.

I don't believe in offenses to mythological characters.

There is no such thing.

 

Srila Prabhupada was being diplomatic in his preaching in the western world.

What he said was a preaching device...

...Leave Jesus behind and surrender to Krishna.

Hanging on to Jesus is just a way of resisting Krishna.

Guruvani...methinks you are a fundie in your own right.

This forum is owned and operated by Vaishnavas from a Vaishnava temple.

I think the forum should be for Vaishnava topics and the Jesus people should go to a Christian forum.

 

this mixing of Jesus people with Vaishnavas is bad chemistry and will cause nothing but friction.

I don't think the people who post here regularly are in any sense what could be called "Jesus people", with the exception of the occasional roaming spot proselytizer...and they are very obvious.

A good number of us were born in America or other western nations, grew up in Christian homes, and became affiliated with the Hare Krishna movement during our youth or young adulthood...for me, I saw my first devotees in 1969, had my first extended association in 1971, and have hung in, in one way or another, ever since.

Though we took a drastic detour from the religious training of our childhood, many still have strong impressions, both good and bad, of that period of their lives, and it is part of our psycho/spiritual makeup...it's something that not all can discard with ease, or may not want to discard or completely dissociate from. We also face situations in our present lives which we must deal with all manner of Christians...from the Bible-thumping hellfire fanatics to some very cool and open individuals.

So what better place to discuss our issues with Christianity, Christians, the Bible, and so on than an intelligent Vaisnava forum, with other Vaisnavas? As has been suggested previously, a regular forum for this type of discussion could be established and those who don't want to go there wouldn't have to...there's no reason for friction unless people choose to create it.