Kalkin714

<a href="http://www.vedanta.com/christ.html"Christ the Messenger by Swami Vivekananda http://www.vedanta.com/christ.html

 

i am dissapointed really, why didn't Kalkin714 respond to those quotes from the veda's??! thats a lot of pages of evidence

I can hardly be expected to read and respond to all of that mass 'copy and pasteing', nor do I have an ounce of respect for such tactics (think for yourself, don't just parrot!). From what I have had time to read over so far seems to be alot of Puranas and other secondary (or even sect specific) scripture, which first off must be rejected if contadicts Shruti, and second of all are alegorical tales not to be taken literaly, all characters are simply plot devices to deliver Vedic truths through simple stories (for simple people). Besides that there seem to be alot of "quotes" without verse number referances and I doubt the poster ever actualy opened up the scriptures and read them for himself, again he's just a 'copy and paste' parrot with no real understandig of Shruti.

I will get to what I can get to in my responses (I do have better things to do than argue with brainwashed people). However I have quoted the most authoratative of all Vedic literature, the major Upanishads, (in other threads) in support of Advaita (and will post more soon) ,that I studied and found myself without having to 'copy and paste' from a propaganda site, that no one has yet to explain how the Shruti can say this and them self still concider Vedanta to be anything but Advaitic.

 

What Scripture are you quoting?

Brhadaranyaka Upanishad (of the Sukla Yajur-Veda) 4.4.19-20 just like it says directly beneath the quote. The oldest of all the Upanishads and thus the begining of all Vedanta.

And are you reading it? This is describing God [brahman].

*sigh*

"If a person truly percives the Self (Atman),

knowing 'I am this';

What possibly could he want,

Whom possibly could he love,

that he should worry about his body?...

...When a man clearly sees this Self (Atman) as God,

the lord of what was

and of what will be,

He will not seek to hide from him."

~Brhadaranyaka Upanishad of the Sukla Yajur-Veda 4.4.12,15

There you go. In verse 12 Self is identifed with a person and in verse 15 Self is identified as God. Then in 19-20 it is defined as single. No diversity HERE! Advaita. Advaita directly in the Sruti prasthAna too, not anyones comentaries on Vedanta. This came at least 1200 years before Sankarah.

Anyway I don't want to talk with a fool. So good bye.

Good, let's just chant then:

<big>Govinda Hare, Gopala Hare

He Prahbu dena dayala Hare!</big>

 

Yes and I just saw a Pig fly.!

Less impersonal then being non-different from God? Are you trying to merge? Excuse me. Anyway study more. You will see the futility. Serve God!

There is no need to be a jack ass. And there is no need to merge. There is no bondage and there is no liberation. You need to study some!.......

"...there is here nothing diverse at all!

From death to death he goes, who sees

here any kind of diversity.

As just singular must one behold it -

immeasurable and immovable.

The Self (Atman) is spotless and beyond space,

unborn, immense, immovable."

~-Brhadaranyaka Upanishad 4.4.19-20

And I do serve God, thanks! Govinda has directly imparted the whole of the Vedas to me, and I am forever his bhakta, for once you have jnana you can never not serve Lord Shanmukha.

Jaya Shiva Omkara!

 

Originally Posted by anadi:

Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu attacked or denounced too the Maya-vada philosophy

Reply by Kalkin714,

And he was wrong.

Dear Kalkin714,

The Supreme Lord can never be wrong.

Some persons still think that Sri Caitanya MahAprabhu never said He is the same Krishna, the Supreme Lord.

 

I could realy care less who he said he was. I wholely and thoroughly reject him as my Lord Govinda.

In “Sri Caitanya Bhagavata” , Srila VRndAvana dAsa ThAkura relates the lila of how Advaita Acarya wanted to be treated by Sri Caitanya MahAprabhu as one of His Servants not as a superior personality and decided to teach the glories of jJAna-yoga.

When Sri Caitanya MahAprabhu inquired from Advaita Prabhu, “Between bhakti and jJAna, which is superior?” Advaita Prabhu replied that jJAna was superior. On hearing this Sri Caitanya repeatedly struck Advaita’s back with His fist, and after it started to reveal that He descended just because Advaita’s prayers.

Nice god you've got there! Commin' down to beat on monks, great!

An excerpt from Sri Caitanya Bhagavata, Madhya, Chapter 19.140-152.

The Lord said:

<ST1:P“I was sleeping in the Ocean </ST1:Pof <ST1:PMilk</ST1:P, when You, nADA (sada-shiva), woke Me to fulfil Your mission. (Sri Caitanya MahAprabhu called Advaita acarya sometimes nADA.)

You brought Me to reveal bhakti, but now You are covering bhakti with Your explanation on jJAna.

If Your intention was to cover bhakti, then why did You have Me to descend (into this world).

I never frustrate Your resolve, but You always deceive Me.

After releasing Advaita, the Lord sat down at the doorway and began to loudly reveal His own glories.

O nADA it was I (Sri kRSNa) who killed kaMsa. You know everything, don’t You?

BrahmA, ziva, zeSa and laxmi, all engage in My service. The cunning impostor vAsudeva was killed by My (Sri kRSNa’s) chakra.

<?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comhttp://www.audarya-fellowship.com/forums/ /><st1:place w:st=Krishna</st1:place>, the Supreme Lord.

*

In “Sri Caitanya Bhagavata” , Srila VRndAvana dAsa ThAkura relates the lila of how Advaita Acarya wanted to be treated by Sri Caitanya MahAprabhu as one of His Servants not as a superior personality and decided to teach the glories of jJAna-yoga.

When Sri Caitanya MahAprabhu inquired from Advaita Prabhu, “Between bhakti and jJAna, which is superior?” Advaita Prabhu replied that jJAna was superior. On hearing this Sri Caitanya repeatedly struck Advaita’s back with His fist, and after it started to reveal that He descended just because Advaita’s prayers.

*

An excerpt from Sri Caitanya Bhagavata, Madhya, Chapter 19.140-152.

*

The Lord said:

“I was sleeping in the <st1:place w:st=" /><st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">vArANasI</st1:place></st1:City> was completely burned by My chakra, and the mighty rAvaNa was killed by My arrow.

My cakra cut off the arms of bANAsura, and My cakra destroyed narakAsura.

It was I (Sri kRSNa) who held up Govardana Hill with My left hand, and it was I who brought the pArijAta flower from heaven.

I deceived <st1:place w:st="on">Bali</st1:place> and then bestowed mercy on him. It was I who killed HiraNyakazipu to save PrahlAda.

In this way the Lord revealed His opulences, and Advaita floated in an ocean of ecstatic love while listening.

Advaita was filled with ecstasy after receiving His punishment. He clapped His hands and danced in humility.”

Well you realy proved alot by quoting a scripture that I don't regaurd as the least bit authoratative. (Or any other Hindu sect besides Guadiyas). Just anti-advaitic propaganda.

Oh and P.S. Advaita isn't impersonalist. What could be less impersonal than being non-differnt from God?

 

Well, in one thread you had the gull to say Lord Caitanya was wrong. Then you suggest we read Mayavadi interpretations of Bhagavad-gita.

wrong forum to come in and say the Supreme Lord is wrong and to push impersonalists philosophies.

Where does it say ISKCON only? If this is I'll seriously leave. I'm not tryin' to push any veiws, just to show the WHOLE veiw. But if this seriously isn't a board for the WHOLE veiw then I'll leave, no problem.

As far as I know when I'm posting thus far it's about "Spiritual Discussions". (and those things weren't deleted except for my links the first time).

Well the moderators here again edited/deleted my posts, even the one asking for an explanation of why they were doing it!

 

So, why don't you just step up and give an explanation? I MADE NO ATTACKS ON THE "AS IT IS" OR ANY OTHER RENDITION OF THE GITA!!! SO, What gives?

<big>Gita Super Site:

</big>http://www.gitasupersite.iitk.ac.in/index.htm

Many translations, english/hindi/sanskrit, differnt comentaries, veiw up to six at once!.

Dr. Ramananda Prasad translation:

http://www.geocities.com/advaitavedant/bhagavadgita.htm

Swami Krishnananda's translation:

http://www.swami-krishnananda.org/gita_00.html

 

by Kalkin714

Lol. Well you'd better go tell the Unitarian Universalist church that they don't exist then. You're a riot!

Why should I be bothered to tell them anything? As far as I consider, they are God-less people and I have no interest in saving any God-less people like Muslims and Christians. </

You see, this is what we call the fundie veiw.

I don't give rat's a$$ what you call such views. FACT - Muslims AND Christians consider you to be DAMNED. That's all that matters here. Capiece?

 

Wow! What is the matter with you? Can you hear yourself? You are exactly the same as the people you hate! 'they're God-less'. 'they're heathens', they're beneath me'..... don't you see that this is the same attitude that lead certain Christians to do the things you so hate them for?

FACT- not every individual Muslim or Christian (or any other group for that matter) shares the same veiw point. The world isn't so black and white. You are completely ignorant and only perpetuating hate and ignorance.

 

My dear jack ass, I wasn't talking about south Africa, or modern missionary Christians.

DO NOT PATRONIZE ME, FOOL.

I have already informed you of Christians' creation of Apatheid System in South Africa and their role in destruction of China and also several Asian countries. ALL this ARE proven HISTORICAL FACTS.

Not enough? Go and read about Christians creating Communism in Russia. Not enough, India's current Caste System is based on British's Divide and Rule policy which they used in India and Malaya. ALL PROVEN HISTORICAL FACTS, even agreed by Historians in recent Discovery Documentary named "Legacy of Great Britain" which aired a few months ago.

So I do not need to proof to you anymore about Evil of Christianity and Jesus Christ anymore. There is more then ample proof. Only choice you have is whether you ACCEPT or DENY.

 

Why don't you actualy read what I write instead of trying so hard to be a jack ass! I never denied that people who happened to profess to be Christians have done horrible things. The south african colinists church came WAY after the Coptic church in Africa, please tell me what the Coptic church (who are native Egyptians and not white suprmemicists) has done or any other Church that predated the Roman one and stayed outside of it's influence.

And you still haven't tied Jesus to the actions of these Christians that did do something wrong either.

So Christians started communism in Russia? The Communists that were anti-christian?

 

You know I've seen someone say that the world, all of the illuminati and free masons who supposedly run the worlds governments are all controlled by Brahmins in the mountains of N. India. And what you just said is just as silly.

Silly because you are not a Hindu but a (probably) a Christian in disguise. That is why you do not accept the Evil Christians had commited and continued to commit TO THIS DAY.

 

Another baseless acusation. Again I never denied that many Christians have done many evil things, but to say, as you did earlier, that they are resposnsible for all evil is just purely ignorant. Like I said the world isn't so black and white. Corruption and evil exist across the world in all land and in all religions! You can't say that all of one group is all evil or all good. And Again this is the same backward mentality that leads to all the evils you have pointed out!

And no, I'm not a Christian, I worship Govinda!

 

So a bunch of non-jews who happened to come to Isreal then decided to follow some guy around who no one else was following (since no Jews beleived him), decided he fullfilled Jewish prophecy and then spread that message out side of Isreal?

WHAT Prophecy? Jesus NEVER existed ... how are you going to say he fullfilled ANY prophecies? Historicans cannot find ANY traces of Jesus ANYWHERE and several Historians agreed that Jesus was a Myth created by Romans who followed Zeus (Roman Pagan belief) and made Jesus myth.

</p>WHY do you think Jesus's birthday falls on Dec. 25? because that what his birthday? NO, that is the time of Winter Solistic - common festivals which Romans during that time.

PS : READ book called Ceaser's Messiah for further detail of Roman's Jesus Christ and how they managed to fool the World for 2,000 years by stating that they are continuotion of Jewish Tradition and even fooled Muslims into accepting them.

 

I never said that Jesus fullfilled any prophacies, I said that his early followers believed he did. (Again, please actualy read what I say instead of just ranting). And yes there is no direct proof of his existence (or non-existance). I know all about the Sun-god/ Jesus connection (nothing to do with Zeus however) this was started by infultration of Greek ideals into the early Christian churches in Asia Minor (not by Romans).

But the fact is that weather or not he existed, the tradition of Jesus predated either Greek or Roman interests in it. Answer me this: Why would Romans make up Jesus in order connect with Jewish traditions? How would that help them? It just doesn't make sense unless there was already a popular movement in Rome that the government wanted to infultrate and control before it got out of hand. So it's not that they made him up, but they hijacked him. So how can you say that any Church not related to the Roman one is to blame for any of it?

Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu attacked or denounced too the Maya-vada philosophy

And he was wrong.

Here is more evidence of reincarnation in the Upanishads:

"A man who's attatched goes with his action,

to that very place which

his mind and carater cling.

Reaching the end of his action,

of whatever he has done in this world-

From that world he returns

back to this world,

back to action."

~Brhadaranyaka Upanishad 4.4.6

"From death to death he goes, who sees any kind of diversity here"

~ Brhadaranyaka Upanishad 4.4.19

The term used in this last one, 'From death to death he goes', I's say is used atleast twenty times in the major Upanishads.

 

Katha Upanishad 2.6 and 2.7 say nothing like the above. Yama is instructing Nachiketa on Atman. Please check a proper source.

I am yet to see a clear reference to reincarnation in the Veda.

Cheers

Yes it's 5.7, I must have misread it while I was typing it out. Here's all of 5.6,7:

"Come, I'll tell you this secret and eternal formulation of truth (brahman);

And what happens to the self (atman),

Guatama, when it encounters death.

Some enter a womb by which an embodied self obtains a body,

others pass into stationary things-

according to what they have done,

according to what they have learned"

<b><big>Sri Ganesha Pancharatnam</big>

of Adi Shankaracarya

 

I prostrate before Lord Vinayaka,

who holds modaka in his hand with great joy,

who bestows salvation,

who wears the moon as a crown on his head,

who is the sole leader of those who have no leaders,

who destroyed the elephant demon named Gajasura,

and who quickly destroyed the sins of those who bow down to him.

 

I resort to that Lord continuously,

who is frightening to those who are not his devotees,

who shines like the rising sun,

to whom all the Gods and demons bow,

who removes the great distress of his devotees,

and who is the Best among the best.

 

I bow to the shining Ganapati

who brings happiness to all the worlds,

who destroyed the demon Gajasura,

who has a big belly,

beautiful elephant-face,

who is immortal,

who gives mercy, forgiveness and happiness

to those who bow to Him,

and who bestows fame and a well-disposed mind.

 

I worship the ancient elephant-god

who destroys the pains of the poor,

who is the abode of 'Om',

who is the first son of Lord Shiva (destroyer of the triple cities),

who destroys the pride of the enemies of the gods,

who is frightening to look at during the time of the world's destruction,

who is fierce like the elephant in rut,

and who wears Dhananjaya and other serpents as his ornaments.

 

I constantly reflect upon that single-tusked god only,

whose lustrous tusk is very beautiful,

who is the son of Lord Shiva, the god of death,

who tears asunder all obstacles,

and who dwells forever in the heart of Yogis.

 

 

He, who recites every morning, with devotion,

these five gems about Lord Ganapati,

and who remembers in his heart the great-Ganesha,

will soon be endowed

with a healthy life,

free of all blemishes,

will obtain learning,

good sons,

longevity,

spiritual and material prosperity.</b>

 

Dear kalkin714,

This thread is not intending to show, that power corrupts, but the implications of that corruption.

Q. Why then only show it in Christianity? Why not show the implications of corruption elsewhere too?

A. Because this is just an attack on Christianity with the pretense of something more noble. And a pretty transparent one at that!

 

"The word that all the Vedas disclose;

The word that all austerities proclaim;

Seeking which people live student lives;

That word now I will tell you in breif-

It is OM!

For this alone is the syllable that's Brahman!

For this alone is the syllable that's supreme!

When, indeed, one knows this syllable,

he obtains his every wish.

This is the support that's best!

This is the support supreme!

And when one knows this support,

he rejoices in Brahman's world."

~Katha Upanishad 2.15-17

<marquee behavior="alternate">Jaya Shiva Omkara!!</marquee>

 

Question - Are Muslims Universalists? Are Christians Universalists? Answer - NO in both account.

 

Lol. Well you'd better go tell the Unitarian Universalist church that they don't exist then. You're a riot!

In Christianity, you MUST accept Jesus or damned for eternity. In Islam, you MUST follow Muhammad and his ways or damned for eternity. So it this Universal? Is this acceptable by Govinda's standards?

You see, this is what we call the fundie veiw. The funny thing is that so many Vaishava's (and some Saiva's) are exactly the same way. No they don't preach eternal hell fire, but they'll go to great lengths to try and demonize Advaita and Adi Shankara

My dear shallow-minded friend, the Africans knows this already in a term called APATHIED which existed till some 1980s. Perhaps you heard of them, if you ever bothered to educate yourself.

In Apatheid System (which by the way, was broken by Mahatma Gandhi who taught Africans how to stand for themselves when he was in service in South Africa), White men are considered superior and Black men are considered lower than them. Christianity is taught to them NOT because they are equals, but because Christian White men had compassion and wish to save lowly black people.

In China, Christian Missionaries worked hand-in-hand with Merchants to bring Opium in and drug Chinese Youth. When Chinese Official tried to stop them, Missionaries hide Opium addicts and sellers alike in their Churches in name of Jesus and Compassion.

In Japan, they (Christians) tried to trade weapons to warring parties in Japan but Japanese Shogun were smarter ... he kicked out ALL the Christian Missionaries out of Japan and closed the country to foreigners.

In India ... well, I'm sure you don't need history lessons. Middle-East ... Christians worked together with Romans at first and then Muslims to wage war with Jewish People.

 

My dear jack ass, I wasn't talking about south Africa, or modern missionary Christians. The Coptic church has existed in Egypt since before the Roman church-state. Please explain to me all of their wrong doings and beleifs. Also the Syrian church spread through Persia to India and China. Please explain to me all their migivings also.

Maybe someone fooled you into thinking such, but please ... do not attend to fool me. I took Asia History Major and I know the history of almost ALL Asian country in Asia, and most of the the World's History.

Christians ARE responsible for ALL this crimes against Humanity. They are NOT product of Roman empire like you claimed. Do you know why? Because Rom perished before Islam came but Christians continued to corrupt Asia and South America. That is proof enough.

 

You know I've seen someone say that the world, all of the illuminati and free masons who supposedly run the worlds governments are all controlled by Brahmins in the mountains of N. India. And what you just said is just as silly.

And your "proof" their is the most illogical thing I've ever heard. So, because there was a period of time between the fall of the Rome and the rise of Islam that means that means that a movement couldn't have spread from Rome before it's fall to other lands who were still powerfull enought to "corrupt" others? Come on.... this isn't hard.

Wrong ... I stated already that Jews had REJECTED Jesus and his claims of being Son of a God. Jewish God - Yahweh (simply means One who is Eternal) has NO Sons, Daughters, Beginning, End or an Equal.

 

Oh, I'm sorry. I forgot that you had already made your baseless decree. So a bunch of non-jews who happened to come to Isreal then decided to follow some guy around who no one else was following (since no Jews beleived him), decided he fullfilled Jewish prophecy and then spread that message out side of Isreal? You, again, have me in stitches! So was it the Romans occupying Isreal at the time or was it just extra terestrials?

Hmph ... I will persume you do not know the meaning of my username.

Oh yes, because if you know a Jewish word that makes you an expert! Sephiroth is also a caracter in a video game.

[quote name='anadiDear kalkin 714,<O:p</O:p

If one makes some statements, one should prove them.<O:p</O:p

This thread is for that person, who wants to have some evidence for such, not quite elegant, statements as yours.

This thread is not intended to hurt someone's feelings.

One sould keep a moderate tone, and bring one's evidence to clarify the point.

The truth .... must be proved, and the lie shouldn't spread in the name of truth.

 

You need your head to be examined. How can you say Jesus is a holy figure when the people who he (allegedly) came from - the Jews - had rejected him to be a Holy figure? What? You are wiser than Jews who studied their Scripture?

Don't be fooled by Christians and Christ. His so-called love is conditional one - you MUST accept him or damned for ever in hell. THAT is the love of Jesus and his god. Such concept DOESN'T exist in Judaism.

 

</p>Guess what Sephiroth? The people who originaly belived in Jesus as the fulfillment of messianic prophecy and spread his message to other countries.........THEY WERE JEWS!!!!!!

 

You know very little about Christ's message or Jewish spirituality. Stop making such matter-of-fact remarks about someting that you have such a limmeted veiw on.

 

Hmph ... Since when did Jesus gets a Sri title?

Problem with Christians are called "Whitemen Supremacy" concept. You may want to run a check on it on Google for further information.

Basically, Christians came to believe that they are chosen people of God for accepting Jesus, a son of a god. They came to believe that their White-men culture was above all and they alone were modern and civilised, while others, especially the dark-skinned people, were uncivilised barbarians.

Matter a fact, till as late as 1900s, Christians from Europe still argued that Europeans NEED to rule over the Asians because it was "White men's burden" to educate and civilise Non-Christians thus saving them with grace of Jesus Christ.

That attitude was the reasons for Europe to be in Dark Ages for nearly 300 years. And Yes, Jesus WAS to blame for it.

So Christians = White supremicists then? Well mabey you should tell that to the millions of members of original Christian churches in Africa, the Middle East, India and China. I'm shure they'll be interested to know that they think that they are superior to them selves and should dominate themselves.

Do you not see that by believing and propagating uninformed sterotypes you are just as bad as those Christians you so despise?

The brand of Christianity that is responsible for heinous crimes to humanity the globe over is a product of the Roman empire's government, not of Jesus or his apostales. The book called the bible is also their product made up of the Jewish scriptures and Christian writings that they thought supported their aims. This governmanet also destroyed all other Christian sects and writings that were within' their lands. The churches after the empire and in other lands in northern Europe where they spread to carried this Imerialist dogma with it. So blame the Romans, the Brittish or whatever other Imperialist European culture you want too, but Jesus never said 'White makes right'.

could you please stop with this universalism crap! This is a Hindu forum discussing Hindu philosophy! Go market somewhere else!

Some of the greatest Hindus in recent history have been Universalists. Is God not universal? Do you worship a limited God? Isn't that the core of Hindu philosophy, that the One manifests in many ways? Doesn't Govinda say that He accepts all types of worship in the Gita?

The orthadox Hindu ishta-deva system accepts six deities that you may pick from (and worship acording to the Agamas). They are Vishnu, Shiva, Shakti, Ganesha, Surya, and Skanda/Kumara (originaly their were only five until Adi Shankaracharya's reform added Kumara; and some time before that Ganesha replace Brahma). Since both Ganesha and Shakti are choices, and since it doesn't specify which form a Shakti, then I wouldn't see the problem with worshiping Ganesha's Shakti. Though in the most orthodox sense you would need to find Smirti with a prescribed way of worship for Her, I don't think that a more liberal Smarta (as followers of such Smirti are called) would object to a mixing of Ganesh and Shakti Smitri prescribed worship. In the most liberal sense you can worship whatever you choose to represent Brahman in whatever way you want. As Ghandi put it, "Each one prays to God according to his own light."

 

Also, every god and his respective goddess are inseperable in reality. It is said that the god represent's the inert quality of the deity and that the goddess represents the active force of that quality. Though certainly many goddeses do take on inert qualites too. I don't think it would be too hard to adapt Shakti puja so as to direct it tward the active powers of Ganesha. So I say go for it if that your "light" of God.

 

About 500 years ago, Europe still Dark Ages, thanks to Jesus Christ and Christianity.

Wow, so Jesus cause the dark ages huh?

 

What's with all the "Christianity is evil" crap on this forum? Sri Jesus preached Love. You can't blame him for what the church-state did in his name a couple hundred years later. That is if infact Christianity is somehow to blame.

<font face="Courier New"><font size="3"><b>What's the poind of attacking Christianity on a Hindu forum?

 

You say it's good to be educated on such things, well it's no big secret that the Roman church-state and their version of "revealed" scriptures is a load. But that doesn't mean that all Christianity is faulty. Mabey you need to get educated on otherways of Christian thought. See what aspects of what sects have ideals that may be common to your beliefs.

 

You know, focus on the positive instead of the negative

 

Jai Sriman Narayana:

 

Vak (Speech, communication..........

Plants (and fruits, seeds, flowers, roots etc) have Prana but no Vak..... Any comments? Anything wrong above? Please clarify.

 

Plant's many not speak in the formal sense but the do indeed comunicate through chemicals; pheromones and exo-pheromones.