Posts posted by Yegan
<hr>India Abroad News Service BANGALORE - Nearly two decades after marine archeologists found the lost city of Dwarka off the coast of Gujarat the state government continues to drag its feet on a proposal to estab-lish the world's first underwater museum to view the remains of the city submerged in the Arabian Sea. <hr>The proposal for the museum, submitted by the Marine Archeology Center of the National Institute of Oceanography (NIO) in Goa, involves laying a submarine acrylic tube through which visitors can view through glass windows the ruins of the city said to have been be ruled by Sri Krishna, 3,500 years ago.An alternative suggestion is to have acrylic wells, to be accessed through boats, from which the remains can be viewed.Another proposal that remains on paper is for setting up a marine archeology museum of Dwarka antiquities found in the sea.
Discovered in 1981, the well-fortified township of Dwarka extended more than half a mile from the shore and was built in six sectors along the banks of a river before it became submerged. The findings are of immense cultural and religious importance to India. <hr> "The search for the lost city has been going on since 1930," S.R. Rao, former adviser to the NIO who is still actively involved in the excavations, told India Abroad. "It is only after marine archaeologists started exploring the seabed near modem Dwarka from 1981 that the structural remains of the city were found."
Rao said that if a fraction of the funds spent on land archeology were made available for under-water archaeology, more light could be thrown on Dwarka, which had much archeological signifi-cance because it was built during the second urbanization that occurred in India after the Indus Valley civilization in northwestern India.Dwarka's existence disproves the belief held by Western archeologists that there was no urbanization in the Indian subcontinent from the period between 1700 B.C. (Indus Valley) and 550 B.C. (advent of Buddhism). As no information was available about that period, they had labeled it the Dark Period. <hr>Among the objects unearthed that proved Dwarka's connection with the Mahabharata epic was a sea engraved with the image of a three-headed animal.The epic mentions such a seal given to the citi-zens of Dwarka as a proof of identity when the city was threatened by King Jarasandha of the powerful Magadh kingdom (now Bihar).The foundation of boulders on which the city's walls were erected proves that the land was reclaimed from the sea about 3,600 years ago. The epic has references to such reclamation activity at Dwarka. Seven islands mentioned in it were also discovered submerged in the Arabian Sea.
Pottery, which has been established by thermoluminiscence tests to be 3,528 years old and carrying inscriptions in late Indus Valley civilization script; iron stakes and triangular three-holed anchors discovered here find mention in the Mahabharata. <hr> "The findings in Dwarka and archeological evidence found compatible with the Mahabharata tradition remove the lingering doubt about the historicity of the Mahabharata," said Rao. We would say Krishna definitely existed."' What is needed, he added, is the political will to reconstruct the cultural history of the Vedic and epic periods of northern India. The maritime museums at sites of ' wrecks and submerged ports are absolutely essential, and portable antiquities should be conserved properly, lie emphasized. If the proposal to have a maritime museum is accepted by the Gujarat government, it would be the first of its kind in India, he pointed out.Recounting the start of exploration for Dwarka, Rao said, "We carried out the original survey with just four scuba divers, while the operation called for the services of around 200 divers and other staff."But for the work to progress now, more equipment is needed, besides funds and time, he warned, adding:
"We need two barges, one mounted with a crate, and equipment such as an airlift. We need 30 or 40 divers and engineers. The work should go on for at least six months and cannot be halt-ed midway." <hr>According to Rao, the project would need at least Rs. 20 million ($476,000).Funds would have to be provided by the Gujarat government and its tourism department Other possible sources are the federal Depart-ment of Ocean Development (DOD), which organizes big projects such as expeditions to Antartica, the Department of Science and Technology (DST) and the Council for Scientific and Industrial Research (CSIR), which have not contribute much, Rao said. <hr>"The findings in Dwarka and archeological evidence found compatible with the Mahabharata tradition remove the lingering doubt about the historicity of the Mahabharata. We would say that Krishna definitely existed" S.R. Rao.
Newspaper article about Dwarka-Friday January 8th 1999
Below are copy paste of some articles:
<table border="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr> <td valign="top" width="100%"> Scholars from across the world came together, for the first time, in an attempt to establish the 'Date of Kurukshetra War based on astronomical data.' Undoubtedly, it was an amazing collation of information presented in a colloquium, held on January 5 and 6, 2003 at the Mythic Society, Bangalore. The colloquium was jointly organized by The Mythic Society, Indira Gandhi National Centre for the Arts - Southern Regional Centre and Sir Babasaheb (Umakanth Keshav) Apte Smarak Samithi Trust.
</td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="top" width="100%"> Inaugurating the two day session, Dr. Raja Ramanna, Member of Parliament and eminent nuclear scientist, emphasized that the 'best clock for dating was the sky itself and the position of stars.' He added that 'research and scientific theory should be questioned although he found that many homes and libraries hampered the progress of research by keeping ancient manuscripts to themselves.'
</td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="top" width="100%"> Dr. Kalyan Raman clarified the purpose of the colloquium in his introductory remarks. Well-known historian, Dr. Suryanath Kamath, in his Presidential address explained the objective as an ' exploration of the authenticity of dates using planetary software and textual evidences containing over 150 references.' He felt that 'chronology was most important for the history of any society since history without chronology is like a body without a skeleton.' He also gave a detailed explanation of the development of the Mythic library and the collections.
The other dignitaries present on the dais were Dr. M.K.L.N. Sastry - Hon. Secretary, Mythic Society, Prof. P.V. Krishna Bhat - Hon. Coordinator, IGNCA-SRC and Shri K. Narahari - Managing Trustee, Apte Trust. The opening session set the tone for the mind stirring sessions with various interpolations found in the Mahabharata. Several scholars put forth their perception and calculated derivations. Dr. S. Balakrishna (NASA, USA) proved the occurrence of 'two eclipses in (a span of) 13 days prior to Mahabharata'. Analysing the astronomical possibility of Vyasa's statement in Bhishma Parva "Amavasya occured on the 13th day. Two eclipses in a month, on the thirteenth day." he presented the data of eclipses during the period 3300 BCJ (Before the Calendar of Julian Ceaser) to 700 BCJ visible at Kuruxethra, using Lodestar Pro software. He stated the possibility of 672 eclipse pairs, ten 'thirteen day lunar first' eclipse pairs and concluded that 2559 BC eclipse pair was nearest to the text of Mahabharata.
Prof. R.N. Iyengar (I.I.Sc., Bangalore) systematically dealt with "Internal consistency of eclipses and planetary positions in Mahabharata". Verifying all double eclipses of 501-3000 B.C. and when Satur + Jupiter were near Vishaka, he concluded that 1478 B.C. was the most likely year of the war.
Dr. B.N. Narahari Achar (Dept. of Physics, University of Memphis, U.S.A.) gave a brief description of various available planetary software, a review of the works of astrophysicists Kochhar, Siddharth and astronomers, Sengupta and Srinivasa Raghavan and other astronomical references in the epic. He critically examined the limitations and the reliability of simulations and concluded that the astronomical events in the Mahabharata pointed to 3000 B.C.E. (Before Common Era)* and simulation of events to 3067 B.C.E., identical to the one given by Raghavan.
Speaking on 'The date of Mahabharata War with reference to Bhishmashtami', Dr. Kalyan Rama (Chennai) validated the ground truth of River Saraswati of Vedic times that established the historicity of the Mahabharata.
Dr. Shambhu Shastry (Franklin, USA) and Dr. Venkateswara Reddy dealt with 'Natural cycles in the Solar System and Chaturyuga Cycles.' Dr. Kalyan Raman (Chennai) validated the ground truth of River Saraswati of Vedic times that established the historicity of the Mahabharata.
Dr. Shambu Shastry (Franklin, USA) and Dr. Venkateswara Reddy dealt with 'Natural cycles in the Solar System and Chaturyuga Cycles.' Dr. Shambhu Shastry showed that the chatuyuga and manavantara schemes of Hindu chronology are directly from natural astronomical cycles and based on this, he stated, that the human race is about five million years old. He concluded that this helped demythologize the Mahabharata and Ramayana and placed them in the last descending Chaturyuga segment over a time span of not more than 6000 years.
Shri P.V. Holey (Nagpur) was of the opinion that the war began on the 13th day of November 3143 B.C. He sourced this to crucial events with planetary positions after a comparative study of astronomical dates based on nakshatra, the Julian and Gregorian systems.
On the second day, Dr. Mohan Gupta (Ujjain) dealt with Puranic and Astronomical evidences. Based on genealogical and astronomical calculations he concluded that 17th October 1952 B.C. Thursday, Marga Krsna Amavasya kali 1157 or shakapurva 2029, Julian year 2762 as the date when the Mahabharata war began. Dr. S.R. Rao based his derivation on archaeological evidence obtained from onshore and offshore excavations conducted in Dwaraka, Bet Dwarka and in the Kurukshetra region and found 1900-1700 B.C. as acceptable.
Dr. N.S. Rajaram (Bangalore) expressed a need to exercise caution while interpreting astronomicla statements and that it should take into account both the literary evolution and interpolated passages. He felt 3100m B.C. had the best astronomical support. Shri K.V. Ramakrishna Rao (Thiruvananthapuram), felt that due to periodical corrections in Indian astronomical works, changes had crept it and without the significance of the two ears - kali and saka - dates cannot be determined, Dr. M.V. Subba Rao (Secundrabad) gave astrological references of Sri Krishna and felt that the dates could be calcutated from the day of Ktrishna's birth. Shri M.V. Narasimhan (Mysore) spoke of a research methodology using the shastric and the scientific inputs. Referring to Pulakesin's inscription and comet at Nagercoil he concluded 3100 B.C. as the year of the war.
Despite the inspiring deliberations, it was observed that further resource data from varied fields was required to calibrate supportive evidence. Thus the concluding session unanimously drew a plan of action. Dr. S. Nagaraju reviewed the colloquium with regard to the two objectives set at the beginning - to establish internal consistency with respect to dates and chronology mentioned in the Mahabharata and whether it could be proved using planetary software and secondly, if a correct date of the Mahabharata could be derived from the 150 astronomical references and have a sheet anchor of chronology of pre-Buddhist India? He said that at least four papers dealt with the problem directly and clarified a non-discrepancy with respect to the dates given. This is he felt was the most important contribution of the colloquium. But a problem he sighted was, out of the one-lakh odd sholkas, to distinguish what was added at what time. In this context he suggested that more interactions might be had with people who had knowledge of geography and other related areas of study. Secondly, he felt that the dating of the Mahabharata war could not be done merely on the basis of astronomy alone. Since there are a number of texts one should find out the correct text and establish a critical edition giving all details.
Dr. R. Subramaniam in his observations also agreed that there was a need to develop a critical editions of the verses with interpretations in consensus with astronomy, history, archaeology, Sanskrit astrology and mathematics. He suggested that verifications should take into account occurrence of double eclipse, Saturn in Rohini and the use of all available software and data. Another valid point he raised was the absence of direct reference to winter solstice in the Mahabharata. Once that is available it was felt that 'everything could be nailed.'
'Where do we go from here?' Answering the self-query Dr. Kalyan Raman voiced the common desire to 'trash Western Indological work done with motivation and instead rewrite Indian history.' The fundamental task would bring to light traditional works which can be achieved in a series of colloquiums. Truth, he felt, should be perceived in terms of our national heritage and his colloquium had established the reliability of this tool.
The Chairperson, Prof. K.I. Vasu addressed the various issues discussed and surmized that the Mahabharata could be 'considered a historical document'.
- Report from Southern Regional Centre
* (B.C.E. - Before Common Era (indicates dates before the Chiristian era, used especially by non-Christians; B.C.J. - indicated the Julian Calendar. The Julian Calendar is names after Julius Caesar who ordered its adoption in 45 B.C.E. upon the advice of Greek astronomer Sosigenes and decided to use a purely solar calendar. The Julian Calendar also established the order of the month and the days of the week as they exist in present day calendars. Caesar's Calendar consisted of 11 months of 30 or 31 days and a 28 day February with no leap year. In 1582 Pope Gregory XIII ordered another reform of the calendar, which came to be known as the Gregorian calendar. The Gregorian calendar is still in official use and was adopted throughout Europe. It is used today throughout most of the Western world and in parts of Asia.)
Why do people use the christian diety as a standard to measuring time?
Good question. It has been this way since long time and is already deeply encrusted in our society. Apparently everyone is happy with that.
Jai Sri Hanuman, Very nice...
At May 30, deadline came to fullfill my commitment. Since i failed to fullfill my commitment, she spitted on my face & told that she will never meet me & speak with me. She told me as a fraud & liar.
Here is my 2cents
Be a man!!! She spitted on ur face for GOD sakeeeee. Give urself some respect. Hey , you are the man here. I wont go 100 different ways; do urself a favour, just walk away from such person whether she is a 110% virgin or not.
Be very careful, these type of women(from wot u have written above) tend to be expert in the art of manipulation(she is using some kind of psychological technique on u. she has already made u feel guilty by calling u fraud & liar, when it is her who is the "real" liar).
Even if she comes back later on and beg u for forgiveness, walk away!(she will most probably come back unless she has found someone else who can satisfy her needs)
Ur parents never spitted on ur face, and who is that girl to allow herself to spit on u; that too because you are not providing her with money? Common, shake up!
If a woman cannot respect the man in u, its already a lost war.
Well then what is wrong with seeing God in wife, kids and the family pet too?
Good Point. I personally dont see any problem in seeing GOD in anyone( or anything as a matter of fact) and as such respect should be given to everyone regardless of age, sex, animals or plants.
La France will win the world cup football 2006.
Sorry for the England and Brazil fans
Germany- Humm South Africa 2010 may be.
Australia- Go OZ gooooooo!!!The koala spirit be with u
England- Forget it, too slack, lacks mobility.
Brazil- Too many stars.
Argentine- Could be.
Spain- Very creative team, the most impressive so far.
France- World cup winner 2006 to be:D
Allez les Bleus!!!
Have some , and enjoy the game.
Thanks aGnani11, I appreciate. I'll try the lemon juice next time on dvadasi.
How do one actually break the nirjala fast on dvadasi (assuming that no food and water were taken, complete fast)? Can the fast be broken by taking fruits only or grains are compulsory?
How many times should one eat on dvadasi after observing the nirjala fast?
It is said that Ved Vyasa wrote Puranas for common folk. If so, then why did he write from the perspective of great saints and not ordinary people?
May be someone who knows a bit on scriptures might clear this point.
First time that I heard incense burning cause cancer.
Personally i burn incense cause the aroma drifts me away and help me a little bit in trying to concentrate(which i found to be very difficult)
I heard an ISKCON Swami say it is ok to eat a cow if it has died a natural death? Is this true? I have a dvd where he states this.
The cow is considered as our mother.
Would anyone eat the flesh of their natural mother after she died and make leather products out of her skin?
Thats utter disrespect and cannibalistic behaviour (at least to me)
The same thing applies to cow who is considered as your mother.
I agree but then the theory should make the meanings of terms used in it clear. It should explain clearly as to what perspective it is speaking from. Otherwise, the theory is of no use.
So, the question is from which perspective has scriptures been written?
If scriptures are written down from the eyes of great saints (which they are) then their vision/perspective/way they see the world is different from ours.
Are their visions the absolute vision?
Vedic civilization is the oldest because it even speaks about events that happened in previous episodes of creation, let alone 8000 years ago.
Unfortunately this is not an indication that vedic civilization is the oldest as far as scientifical evidence is concerned.
Yes, observations can be quite deceiving. But then what observations will you call as real and what as deceiving?
I personally think what is real/not real cannot be based on observation.Deceiving or not we know that we obbserve that things fall. If some theory says that we should observe things as not falling, then that theory should be rejected.
If the theory says we should observe things as not falling, but we do "actually" observe things as falling, then fine we can reject the theory.
But if a theory says things are not falling, then we cannot reject the theory based on our observation that things are falling around us.I agree that many things may exist which we cannot see. But what about those statements in vedic science, which run contradictory to what we clarly see?
The bees "clearly see" the world around them which is somehow different from what we "clearly see".
Some animals clearly see the world in black and white and some animals can have completely diffrent vision from us. Which of those visions is true?
My point is we cannot arrive to a conclusion based solely on observations even if they are "clear" to our perspective or inertial frame.
As an example, if I release something it falls. If there is a theory, which is not compatible with current theories of gravity, then fine. But if the theory says that things do not fall but move up, then we have to reject the theory. Likewise, if Vedic Science is not compatible with modern theories, then fine. But it should at least be compatible with observations.
What if our observations are incorrect?
In our inertial frame, time and space seem (observations) absolute but we know well that they are not.
In short, can we say that observations can be quite deceiving?
If yes, then vedic science need not to be compatible with observations to be accepted.
Sri Rama Himself didn't hesitate to go out to hunt the golden deer on the instigation of Seeta.
I have been pondering unto this since I watched the tv serial"Ramayan".
I like the teachings of ISKCON, but am not actually a member and far, very far from having a guru.
The little I "know" comes from Gita only. I havent gone through any other scriptures so far.
In more earth based religions, eating animals is seen as part of the cycle of life. It is done with awareness and understanding that we all must feed off of life to survive. Just as animals eat other animals to survive; the animal is thought to gives its life for us to help us survive and be strong. I am not saying I agree with this thinking; just that this is how groups like the Native Americans would state they look at meat eating.
Some animals eat other animals to survive, ok agree. But there is a little problem, WE ARE NOT ANIMALS to eat other animals for survival.
"Animals is thought to gives its life for us to help us survive and be strong" - How vegetarians are surviving and are they not strong and healthy?
Where has our compassion that Jesus has teached us gone?
Suppose there were an animal more intelligent and powerful than us. Suppose one day that animal come across ur family and slit open the throat of ur children and have them for dinner on the basis that ur children are helping him(the animal) to survive and be strong.
Would u not be enraged, saddened, distressed and ask urself under which authority that animal did that?
Do you really think that jesus would really be able to slit open the throat of a lamb causing horrendous pain, and later eat that lamb? Is that compassion? Seriously think about it.As to Christians, they do not deny animals have souls just so they can eat them. Animals are created to serve man. But they are not the children of Adam and Eve. Humans are God's unique creation which he created to have eternal fellowship with.
Animals are created to serve man - And we show them our gratitude by killing them, and then we dare say that we are compassionate and loving.
But they are not the children of Adam and Eve- And to you who created the animals?
If your answer is GOD, then animals are the children of GOD whether they are of his image or not. As children of GOD, they need to be protected.
Unless you say that animals are creation of satan then you can get away.Christians believe only human beings were created in God's image. A new soul is created each time that a woman conceives, and that soul is a unique person created by God. If they accept Christ, they can live with God in his kingdom forever. But if they willfully turn their back on Christ, they will be sent to the hell pit to be punished forever; for not believing in God's only begotten Son, the King of kings, and Saviour, Jesus Christ.
I respect my fellow christian friends a lot, but I strongly disagree when a man like Mahatma Gandhi being send to eternal flames of hell just because he has not been following the path of Christ. Whose parents would send their own children to roast eternally in oven just because they are on the "wrong" path and yet lived an almost perfect life?
Does it make sense that a serial killer/rapist goes to heaven and enjoy eternally because he managed to confess his sins to a priest before dying and a man like Gandhi fries eternally in hell because of having the "wrong" faith. Doesnt make sense(at least not to me)
If GOD does not give you a chance to correct ur mistakes, then tell me who will?
If I have to go to hell because Im not christian, then I would simply tell GOD one thing before getting roasted eternally.
I would tell him, think twice before you labelled urself as a compassionate loving GOD.
I think people at those time were dealing a lot with other dimensions.
The moon is also known to be inhabited according to scriptures and most probably once again in a dimension which we cannot perceive.
Who knows in another dimension the sun does rotate around the earth or King Parikshit did ruled the whole earth but once again not in our dimentional realm.
If my memory is good ,in the mahabharat it had been mentioned that dhurhudan was fooled ( I forgot how but it has some connection to dimension) and that yudisteer have kingdoms in another dimension.
Dont forget one thing... Some few years back everyone believed the earth was flat and thinking otherwise was pure madness.Could our present so called modern science be as foolish?
Could the real truth/science yet to be discovered?
not in offensive but in a suggestive way, i am giving you my unsolicited suggestion, dear yegan, instead of spending your time on ghost websites, spend time in study of Shrimad Bhagawatham and Bhagawath Geetha. That would give peace to ghosts also.
Very true vrajavasi.
But I cant help it. Its my nature to want to know different things, including ghosts. Also we might say that the information on ghosts as presented on the website above are somehow vedic information.
This is intelligent and very nice! But, then the counter-arguement would be Animals do not have Souls and the Quoran tells us to eat meat! So, the first question to answer is how to prove that an animal actually has a soul
Srila Prabhupada: Some people say, " WE believe that animals have no soul." That is uncorrect. They believe animals have no soul because they want to eat the animals, but actually animals do have soul.
Reporter: How do you know that the animal has a soul?
Srila Prabhupada: You can know, also. Here is the scientic proof...the animal is eating,you are eating;the animal is sleeping, you are sleeping; the animal is defending, you are defending; the animal is having sex, you are having sex; the animals have children, you have children; they have a living place, you have a living place. If the animal's body is cut, there is blood; if your body is cut, there is blood. So, all these similarities are there. Now, why do you deny this one similarity, the presence of the soul? That is not logical. You have studied logic? In logic there is something called analogy. Analogy means drawing a conclusion by finding many points of similarities. If there are so many points of similarity between human beings and animals, why deny one similarity? That is not logic. That is not science.
Here are few suggestions that I think might be helpful in spreading "Hinduism"
Try to explain the LOGIC/MEANING behind some of our traditions, starting with our kids. We can no longer tell our kids to follow traditions unless we can show them the logical meaning behind traditions. Kids no longer believe blindly which is something very good. Our main attention should be based on kids because they are the futur of tommorrow. In this respect some basic suggestions are:
1a. Explain properly to them the difference between idol and deity worship.
1b.Explain that there is only one GOD but many enpowered beings which help to maintain the proper functioning of the world.(explain them that hinduism is fundamentally monotheist)
1c. The significance of bowing to elders and bowing to GOD.
1d. They need to know, why mother cow is not to be consumed and why we give such respect to cow.(This one is one of missionaries favorite brainwashed tactics)
1e.Basic concept of reincarnation , Karma and Ahimsa.
2. See how we can use the schools/ college as a means to propagate "Hinduism" wherever possible. (Having bhagavad gita classes for example as part of the school curriculum)
3. Have many socio-religious hindu grops' gathering. Organise many socio-religious activities as well. ( You are moulded according to your environment)
4. Have special meetings between intellects and gurus to discuss about the connection between science and Hinduism. ( Hinduism has a wealth of knowledge about cosmology, medicine, metaphysics , mathematics etc which match prety well with modern science. This knowledge has been there well before the advent of the so called modern science). In short glorifies the knowledge of vedic science and show how it can be helpful to help all of us in our daily life.(Yoga is an example among many others)
5. Last but not least encourage our gurus and scholars to have publish as many books and websites as possible. This is where the source of information and answers are.
The more we know of our religion, the less likely are we liable to convert to other religions.
Our kids will get to see the beauty of sanatan dharma and develop a strong foundation. Strong foundation gives rise to unshakable faith.
As to whether they should eat meat or not, well if we are ourselves vegetarians most probably they will be as well. But ultimately its their choice.
Dear Mahakala,Getting tough and demanding huh
I am stating the obvious, all three acharyas accepted the prasthana trayam as their authority. Its pseudo-vedantists, who have problems with valid pramanas.
Good that you have had a second thought and removed/edited "shows ur ignorance" in your original post.
There is no question of getting tough or demanding, its sharing and discussing information/knowledge. So please keep ur comment for urself.
Stating the obvious- What is obvious to you might not be obvious to others.
And to you, the BG is not considered as prasthana trayam?You crack me up, please scroll and read my post # 8 under this thread
Good to know that I can crack you.
As to your post 8, what r u trying to convey?
Are you trying to say that you do not accept the SB 1.3.28 as authority? Please try to be specific for me to comprehend you better.
As to your request in post 8, asking to quote the appropriate verse from BG claiming Krishna as supreme from a non Gaudiya/ Valalbha source, I think this has already been done.
“Furthermore, O Arjuna, I am the generating seed of all existences. There is no being, moving or unmoving, that can exist without me” (Lord Krishna, Bhagavad-Gita 10.39)
"I am the source of all spiritual and material worlds. Everything emanates from Me. The wise who perfectly know this engage in My devotional service and worship Me with all their hearts"
(Lord Krishna, Bhagavad-Gita 10.8)
"There is no truth beyond Me. Everything rests upon Me, as pearls are strung on a thread"
(Lord Krishna, Bhagavad-Gita 7.7)
To me, Bhagavad Gita is Bhagavad Gita, there is no Gaudiya or Non Gaudiya Bhagavad Gita. The verses do not change whether one is in the Gaudiya line or not.How have you arrived to the conclusion that the ME is Vishnu/Narayan? The "ME" most probably means krishna since it is Krishna who is talking.
If Visnu and Krishna are the same entity then "ME" refers to both krishna and Vishnu. Then the question of who is the avatar of whom does not arise.You are going in circles,read Srimad Bhagavatm Canto 10 to 11 for the answer.
You have not answered my question, How did you arrive to the conclusion that "ME" is Vishnu/Narayan?
I can say the same thing to you: You are going in circles read,
BG 10.39, 10.8, 7.7This is what, Srila Prabhupad had to say on Shiva.
"In the beginning of the creation there was only the Supreme Personality Nārāyaṇa. There was no Brahmā, no Śiva, no water, no fire, no moon, no stars in the sky, no sun." (Mahā Upaniṣad 1) In the Mahā Upaniṣad it is also said that Lord Śiva was born from the forehead of the Supreme Lord. Thus the Vedas say that it is the Supreme Lord, the creator of Brahmā and Śiva, who is to be worshiped.
Yes, so?First off, I never claimed that krsna is different from Vishnu nor have I claimed they are the same.You said - I never claimed that krsna is different from vishnuthen you say - nor have I claimed they are the same
If they are not the same then are they are different ?
Please reconcile the contradicton.
No offence, but to me there is a difference between claiming something and have an opinion on something.
There is no contradiction on what I said. I have NOT said/claimed that Vishnu is same as krishna nor that he is different from Krishna. Where is the contradiction?
MY OPINION which is NOT a claim, can either be that both(Maha Vishnu and Krishna) are same OR different.
I have already expressed my opinion on this isuue in post 40, which again is NOT a claim.
For argument sake, they can be same and yet different. This is something which we cannot comprehend. I did once heard a verse in this line but I cannot remember it properly right now.Really !! check this out to find out more on Narayana
Srimad Bhagavatam 12.12.3
This literature fully glorifies the Supreme Personality of Godhead Hari, who removes all His devotees' sinful reactions. The Lord is glorified as Nārāyaṇa, Hṛṣīkeśa and the Lord of the Sātvatas.
source : http://vedabase.net/sb/12/12/3/en
Srimad Bhagavatam Canto 11:31:27
kīrtayec chraddhayā martyaḥ
A person who with faith engages in chanting the glories of these various pastimes and incarnations of Viṣṇu, the Lord of Lords, will gain liberation from all sins.
Once again what are you trying to convey?You have explicitly said I (Krsna) does not apply to HIM - (Maha Vishnu). This implies I is not the same (different) as (from) HIM.
From that verse I have said that there is a strong INDICATION that krishna is the source of avatar.
This is NOT a claim but an OPINION (The word INDICATION, shows clearly that its an opinion not a claim)
Even if my OPINION is that Krishna is the source of all avatar, I have not made any claim that Krishna and maha Vishnu are different nor are they same.
I believe (which is not a claim) that krishna is the source of all avatar, because I have faith in what gurus in Gaudiya Vaishnava line says. And I have quoted some verses to express this belief and faith in a "logical" manner.
You have come forward with very nice and "logical" verses as well which support your arguments that Maha Vishnu is the source of all avatars.
I believe that krishna and maha vishnu have lots of similarities with each other.
I am right now feeling that Im very wrong to have engaged in this particular discusiion. I will finish off with what Guest has beautifully said.in my humble opinion, i still fail to see the value of this debate. whoever you believe in, whether it is Krishna or Vishnu, believe in with firm faith. It is a serious offense to criticise or to try to put down any divinity; if you are a Krishna bhakt, it is considered nama-aparadha (an extremely serious offense) to criticize any divinity. Likewise, imho, the very title of this thread "Vishnu VS Krishna" is inappropriate. There is NO "VERSUS". If you believe Vishnu to be the source, then all glories to you, but the minute you put that "vs" you are criticizing your own God.
if you are a Vishnu devotee, then all glories to you and your faith All glories to all Vaishnavas!
Mahakala, please accept my sincere apologies if I have offended you.
I no longer want to discuss this particular issue as long as there is the potential of offending each other.
All glories to all Vaishnavas!
When was Krishna here??
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<center>INTRODUCTION </center> The Mahabharat has excercised a continuous and pervasive influence on the Indian mind for milleniums. The Mahabharat, orginally written by Sage Ved Vyas in Sanskrut, has been translated and adapted into numerous languages and has been set to a variety of interpretations. Dating back to "remote antiquity", it is still a living force in the life of the Indian masses.
Incidently, the dating of the Mahabharat War has been a matter of challenge and controversy for a century or two. European scholars have maintained that the events described in the ancient Sanskrut texts are imaginary and subsequently, the Mahabharat derived to be a fictitiou tale of a war fought between two rivalries. Starting from the so- called Aryan invasion into Bharat, the current Bharatiya chronology starts from the compilation of the Rigved in 1200 B.C., then come other Ved's, Mahaveer Jain is born, then Gautam Buddha lives around 585 B.C. and the rest follows. In the meantime, the Brahmanas, Samhi- tas, Puranas, etc. are written and the thought contained therein is well-absorbed among the Hindu minds. Where does the Ramayan and Mahabharat fit in ? Some say that the Ramayan follows Mahabharat and some opine otherwise. In all this anarchy of Indian histography, the date of the Mahabharat (the mythical story!) ranges between 1000 B.C.to 300 B.C. Saunskrut epics were academically attacked occasion- ally - an attempt to disprove the authencity of the annals noted therein. For example, the European Indologiest Maxmuller, tried the interpret the astronomical evidences to prove that the observations recorded in the Hindu scriptures are imaginary, probably because it did not match the prevelant views of European historians!
On the contrary, many Bharatiya scholars have vehemently maintained the actual occurance of the Mahabharat War. Astronomical and literary evidences or clues from the Pauranic and Vaidik texts have been deci- phered to provide a conclusive date for the Mahabharat War. The fifth century mathematician, Aryabhatta, calculated the date of the Mahabharat War to be approximately 3100 B.C. from the planetary posi- tions recorded in the Mahabharat. Prof. C.V. Vaidya and Prof. Apte had derived the date to be 3101 B.C. and Shri. Kota Venkatachalam reckoned it to be 3139 B.C. However, the astronomical data used by the above, and many other, scholars contained some errors as examined by a scho- lar from Pune, Dr. P.V. Vartak. Using astronomical references and variety of other sources, Dr. Vartak has derived the date of the ini- tiation of the Mahabharat War to be 16th October 5561 B.C. This pro- posed date has been examined by a few scholars and has been verfied. This may prove to be a break-through in deciding the chronology of the events in the history of Bharat (and probably the World).
In the following few posts, I have made an attempt to provide a glance at the proofs provided by Dr. Vartak in propounding the date of the very important landmark in the history of Bharat (World?), i.e., Mahabharat War. Only major points have been extracted from two sources: Dr.P.V. Vartak's Marathi book "Swayambhu" and "Scientific Dating of the Mahabharat War" in English.
<hr width="100%"> <center>INSCRIPTIONS
</center> Some scholars rely on the various inscriptions found in the temples and elsewhere to fix the date of Mahabharat War. If there is no other alternative then this method is tolerable, otherwise it is not reli- able because all the known inscriptions are dated as far back as 400 AD. Those who prepared those inscriptions were not conversant with the scientific methods available now in the modern Science Age. So, why should we depend on the conjectures of the ancient people? Why not use scientific methodology to come to the conclusion ourselves? I will prefer the use of the modern scientific ways to fix the date of Mahabharat War rather than to rely on the Inscriptions which are vague and inconclusive. Let us examine two famous inscriptions always quoted by the scholars.
<hr width="100%"> <center>AIHOLE INSCRIPTION
</center> All the scholars have relied on this inscription found in the Jain Temple at Aihole prepared by one Chalukya King Pulakeshi. It says, according to scholars, that the temple was constructed in 30+3000+700+5 = 3735 years, after the Bharat War and 50+6+500 = 556 years of Shaka era in Kali era. Today Shaka era is 1910. Hence 1910- 556 = 1354 years ago the temple was constructed. Thus the year of inscribing this note is 634 AD. At this time 3735 years had passed from the Bharat War. So the date of the War comes to 3101 BC. This is also the date of Kali Yuga Commencement. Naturally, it is evident that relying on the beginning of Kaliyuga Era and holding that the War took place just before the commencement of Kaliyuga, this inscription is prepared. It is obvious from the Mahabharat that the War did not happen near about the beginning of Kaliyuga. (I have considered this problem fully at a later stage.) If we can see that the inscription is prepared by relying on some false assumption, we have to neglect it because it has no value as an evidence. Moreover the interpretation done by the scholars is doubtful because they have not considered the clauses separately and they held Bharat War and Kali Era as one and the same.
The verse inscribed is :
Trinshatsu Trisahasreshu Bhaaratdahavaditaha | Saptabda Shatayukteshu Gateshwabdeshu Panchasu | Panchashatasu Kalaukale Shatasu Panchashatsu cha | Samatsu Samatitasu Shakaanamapi Bhoobhujaam ||
I would like to interprete the verse considering the clauses of the verse. It says "3030 years from the Bharat War" in the first line, ( Trinshatsu Trisahasreshu Bhaaratdahavaaditaha) where the first clause oF the sentence ends. in the second line, the second clause starts and runs upto the middle of the third line thus ( Saptabda.....Kalaukale) This means 700+5+50 = 755 years passed in the Kali Era. The remaining third clause is ( Shatasu
Here the verse does not specifically say the Shalivahan Shaka but Scholars have taken granted that it is Shalivahan Shaka without any base or reasoning. The verse may have mentioned some other Shaka kings from ancient era. So we we neglect the doubtful part of the Shaka counting which is useless and adhere to the Kali era expressly mentioned. It is clear from the former portion of the verse that 3030 years passed from the Bharat War and 755 years passed from Kali Era. Kali Era started from 3101 BC. 755 years have passed so 3101-755 = 2346 BC is the year when 3030 years had passed from the Bharat War. So 2346+3030 = 5376 BC appears to be the date of Bharat War.
<hr width="100%"> <center>HISSE BORALA INSCRIPTION OF DEVA SENA
</center> This inscription is of 5th century AD and scholars hold that it throws light on the time of Mahabharat War. It states. that Saptarshis were in Uttara at the time of this inscription. Scholars hold that Saptarshis were in Magha at the time of Yudhishthira because Varahmihira has stated so in Brihat-Samhita. Scholars also hold that Yudhishthira's time is 3137 BC. Saptarshis stay in one Nakshtra for 100 years, and there are 27 Nakshatras. Hence Saptarshis would be again in Magha 2700 years later during 4th century BC. From here if we count upto 5th century AD there fall eight Nakshatras. Hence in the 5th century AD, Saptarshis should be in Anuradha and not Uttara. From Anuradha to Uttara Ashadha there is adifference of five Naksha- tras, while from Anuradha to Uttara Phalguni there is a difference of six Nakshatras. So it is quite evident that at the time of Yudhisthira Saptarshis were not in Magha as held by the scholars. Here I have shown a mistake of five to six hundreds of years. More- over, there are three 'Uttaras' and the inscription has not stated specifically which Uttara it denotes. Thus this source is unreliable and should be rejected.
I have considered Saptarshi Reckoning in details at a later stage on page 11. While going to examine the sources scientifically, I shall give the honour of the first place to Astronomy. One may question that how far Astronomy was advanced in those olden days? I say affir- matively that Astronomy was far advanced in the ancient times, and the ancient Indian sages had perfected the science of time measure- ment relying on Astronomy.
<hr width="100%"> <center>GREEK RECORDS
</center> 1. "The Greek Ambassodor Magasthenis has recorded that 138 generations have passed between Krishna and Chandragupta Maurya. Many scholars have taken this evidence, but taking only 20 years per generation they fixed the date of Krishna as 2760 years before Chandragupta. But this is wrong because the record is not of ordinary people to take 20 years per generation. In the matter of general public, one says that when a son is born a new generation starts. But in the case of kings, the name is included in the list of Royal Dynasty only after his corona- tion to the throne. Hence, one cannot allot 20 years to one king. We have to find out the average per king by calculating on various Indian Dynasties. I have considered 60 kings from various dynasties and calculated the average of each king as 35 years. Here is a list of some of important kings with the no. of years ruling.
Chandragupta Mourya 330-298 B.C. 32 years.
Bindusar 298-273 B.C. 25 years.
Ashok 273-232 B.C. 41 years.
Pushyamitra Shunga 190-149 B.C. 41 years.
Chandragupta Gupta 308-330 A.D. 22 years.
Samudragupta 330-375 A.D. 45 years.
Vikramaditya 375-414 A.D. 39 years.
Kumargupta 414-455 A.D. 41 years.
Harsha 606-647 A.D. 41 years.
The average is 327/9 = 36.3 years.
Multiplying 138 generations by 35 years we get 4830 years before Chan- dragupta Mourya. Adding Chandrgupta's date 320 B.C. to 4830 we get 5150 B.C. as the date of Lord Krishna.
2. Megasthenis, according to Arian, has written that between Sandro- cotus to Dianisaum 153 generations and 6042 years passed. From this data, we get the average of 39.5 years per king. From this we can cal- culate 5451 years for 138 generations. So Krishna must have been around 5771 B.C.
3. Pliny gives 154 generations and 6451 years between Bacchus and Alexander. This Bacchus may be the famous Bakasura who was killed by Bhimasena. This period comes to about 6771 years B.C.
Thus Mahabharat period ranges from 5000 B.C. to 6000 B.C.
<hr width="100%"> <center>SHRIMAD BHAGWAT
</center> a) Bhagwat gives 28 Kaurava kings from Parikshit to Kshemaka. "From Kshemaka, the Pandava Dynasty will end in Kaliyug, and Magadha Dynasty will start." [bhagwad 9-22-45]. This implies that the Pandava kings ruled before the advent of Kaliyug, i.e., before 3101 B.C and Magadha dynasty will not super-impose the Pandava Dynasty.
b) Further it is stated in Bhagwat that after 28 Kaurava kings, Magadha Dynasty would rule and 22 Magadha kings would govern for 1000 years. Here it is given a average of 1000 years for 22 kings. It can be found that the 28 Kaurava kings would have ruled for 1273 years and then Magadha Dynasty started with King Sahadeva, whose son was Somapi. On the other hand, Maghasandhi was the son of Sahadeva and the grand- son of Jarasandha [Ashwamedh-82]. many scholars have neglected this fact and have assumed that this Sahadeva fought in the Mahabharat War and was the son of Jarasandha.
c) Ripunjaya is the last king in the list of 22 Magadhas. But Bhagwat 12.1.2-4 mentions that Puranjaya will be the last king who will be killed by his minister Shunak. It is to be noted that there is no men- tion of the kings between Ripunjaya and Puranjaya. People have wrongly taken the two names as that of one and the same person, without any evidence.
d) Bhagwat 12.1.2-4 state that Shunak would coronate his son Pradyota as the King and later five Kings would rule for 138 years. After this Pradotya Dynasty, Shishunga Kings, 10 in number, would rule for 360 years. Thereafter 9 Nandas would rule for 100 years. Nanda would be destroyed by a Brahmin and Chandragupta would be enthroned. We know that Chandragupta Maurya ascended the throne in 324 B.C. So we can thus calculate backwards:
9 Nandas 100 years
10 Shishungas 360 years
5 Pradotyas 138 years
22 Magadhas 1000 years
28 Kauravas 1273 years
74 Kings 2871 years
We find here only 74 kings, but Megasthenes tells us about 138 kings. So 138-74=64 kings are missing. These may be from the period between Ripunjaya and Puranjaya. Thus calculating from the data of 74 kings who ruled for 2871 years, we get a period of 2496 years for 64 kings. Adding the two we get 5367 years for 138 kings. This is preceding Chandragupta's time, who came to throne in 324 B.C. Hence, 324+5367 = 5691 B.C. is the approximate date of Parikshit.
<hr width="100%"> <center>YUDHISHTIRA ERA AND KALIYUG
</center> Scholars accept the date of the Mahabharat War to be 3100 B.C. which also happens to the initiation of the Yudhisthira Era. But this Era, is mentioned nowhere in the Mahabharat text itself! At the time of Aswamedha of Yudhisthira, Vyas has given descriptions in minute detail like collection of "Sruva", formation of wells and lakes, but never has written even a word about, such an important event, as the begin- ning of the Yudhisthira Era.
Mahabharat also never mentions anything about the beginning of the Kaliyug, even at the time of Krishna's death. Mahabharat Adiparva 2.13 states that the War took place in the interphase ("Antare") of the Dwapaar and Kali Eras. Thus it makes it clear that the evening of the Dwapaar has not yet ended and the Kaliyug had not started when the War took place.
<hr width="100%"> <center>SAPTARISHIS
</center> Bhagwat states at 12.2.27-32 that Saptarishis stay 100 years in one Nakshatra. At the time of King Parikshit, the Saptarishis were in Magha. When they proceeded to Purvashadha, Kali would start. There are 11 Nakshatras from Magha to Purvashadha. Hence it is seen that Shukacharya tells Parikshit that after 1100 years Kaliyug will start. Kaliyug started at 3101 B.C. Hence 3101 + 1100 = 4201 B.C. is the date of Parikshit.
Other references from Shrimad Bhagwat points quite closely to the same year as above.
But who is this Parikshit ? Is he the son of Abhimanyu ? No. A minute observation of this reveals that the above is not Abhimanyu's son because Bhagwat is told to this Parikshit. On the other hand, Mahabharat is told to Janamejaya. In the Mahabharat, Parikshit's death has been recorded. Hence it is evident that Mahabharat was written and published after the death of Parikshit, the son of Abhimanyu. Bhagwat is written after Mahabharat according to the Bhagawat itself. This Bhagwat is told to some Parikshit. How can this Parikshit be the son of Abhimanyu who died before the Mahabharat writing ? So this Parikshit appears to be somebody else than Abhimanyu's son.
<hr width="100%"> <center>EQUINOX
</center> Mahabharat mentions the ancient tradition as 'Shravanadini Nakshatrani',i.e., Shravan Nakshatra was given the first place in the Nakshatra- cycle (Adi-71/34 and Ashvamedh 44/2) Vishwamitra started counting the Nakshatras from Shravan when.he created 'Prati Srushti'. He was angry with the old customs. So he started some new customs. Before Vishvamitra's time Nakshatras were counted from the one which was occupied by the sun on the Vernal Equinox. Vishvamitra changed this fashion and used diagonally opposite point i.e. Autumnal Equinox to list the Nakshtras. He gave first place to Shravan which was at the Autumnal Equinox then. The period of Shravan Nakshatra on autumnal equinox is from 6920 to 7880 years B.C. This was Vishvamitra's period at the end of Treta yuga. Mahabharat War took place at the end of Dwapar yuga. Subtracting the span of Dwapar Yuga of 2400 years we get 7880 - 2400 = 5480 B.C. as the date of Mahabharat War.
<hr width="100%"> <center>ASTROLOGY
</center> Some scholars rely on the horoscope of Lord Krishna to calculate his birth-date so as to establish the period of Mahabharat. But they do not realise that the horoscope is a forged one, prepared many thousand years after Krishna's death. Mahabharat Bhagvat and Vishnu purana have not given the planet positions at the time of Krishna's birth. It is well-known and is recorded in many scriptures that Krishna was born in a jail, then who could have casted his horoscope? Moreover Krishna was not a prince so nobody would have casted his horoscope. Hence it is not wise to rely on the horoscope. It is prepared recently by consid- ering the charateristics of Krishna and so is useless to fix the birth-date.
Mr. G.S. Sampath Iyengar and Mr. G.S. Sheshagiri have fixed the birth-date of Krishna as 27th July 3112 BC. 'The horoscope shows Lagna and Moon 52 deg. 15' Rohini, Jupiter 91 deg. 16' Punarvasu, Sun 148 deg. 15' Uttara Phalguni, Mercury 172 deg. 35' Hasta, Venus 180 deg. 15' Chitra, Saturn 209 deg. .57' Vishakha, Mars 270 deg. 1' Uttara Ashadha Rahu, 160 deg. 1'.
At present on 27th July 1979 the Sun was at 99 deg. 57', while at Krishna's birth, according to their opinion, the sun was at 148 deg. 15'. The difference is 48 deg. 18'. This shows that the Sun has receded back by 48 deg. 18' due to the precession at the rate of 72 years per degree. multiplying 48 deg. 18' by 72 we get 3456 years. This shows that Krishna was born 3456 years ago or substracting 1979 from it we can say that Krishna was born during 1477 BC. Thus 3112 BC is found to be wrong. We cannot accept such a wrong date derived from a manipulated borscope. (This horoscope is printed in "The Age of Bharat War" on page 241-Publisher, Motilal Banarasidas 1979).
<hr width="100%"> <center>ARCHEAOLOGY
</center> In 1971, when I hinted at the date of Mahabharat war as 5500 years BC, Archeaologists frowned at me saying it as impossible because no cul- ture was found in India dating so much back. But now evidences are pouring in Archeaology itself showing cultures in India upto 30000 to 40000 years BC. Padmashri Late Mr. V.S. Wakankar has dated the paint- ings in the caves of Bhimbetaka of Madhya Pradesh to about 40000 BC.
Recently Dr. S.B. Rao, Emeritus Scientist of the National Institute of Oceanography, Dona Paula, Goa, 403004, has discovered under the sea, Dwaraka and dated it as between 5000 to 6000 BC. This news has been published by all the leading newspapers on 22th October 1988.
Motilal Banarasidas News Letter October 1988 gives a news on page 6 under the heading "50,000 year old Relics" as follows:
Spectacular culture and physical relics dating back to 50,000 years BC have been excavated from the Central Narmada Valley in Madhya Pradesh. A team of Anthropological survey of India recently con- ducted the excavation. It explored sites in two districts Sebore and Hoshangabad.
In my book "Vastava Ramayan" I have shown the presence of culture in India as far back as 72000 years B.C. This recent news points to that ancient period. I am sure after some time Arecheaology may get evi- dence to show the presence of culture in India 72000 BC.
In Vastava Ramayan I have shown that Bali, the demon king went to south America during 17000 BC when the vernal equinox was at Moola Nakshatra. MLBD News letter Oct. 1988 gives a news thus :-"Dravidians in America" - According to a press report the Brazillian nuclear phy- sicist and researcher Arysio Nunes dos santos holds that the Dravi- dians of South India reached America much before Christopher Columbus.
Mr. Nunes dos Santos, of the' Federal University of Minas Gerais maintains that the Dravidians colonised a vast South American region 11000 years before the Europians reached the new world. Vestiges of the Dravidian presence in America, he says, include the strange phonetics of Gourani, Paraguay's national language. Moreover Bananas, Pine Apple, Cocunut and Cotton, all grown in India could have been taken to America by those navigators.
<hr width="100%"> <center>THE EXACT DATE OF MAHABHARAT WAR
16TH OCTOBER 5561 YEAR B.C.
</center> Harivansh (Vishnu Purana A. 5) states that when Nanda carried Krishna to Gokul on Shravan Vadya Navami day, there was dry cow-dung spread all over the ground and trees were cut down. The presence of Dry Cowdung all over in Gokul indicates the presence of Summer in the month of Shravan. Trees are usually cut down in Summer to be used as fuel in the rainy season. The seasons move one month backwards in two thousand years. Today the rainy season starts in Jeshtha but two thousand years ago, at the time of KaIidas, rainy season used to start in Ashadha. At the time of Krishna's birth the Summer was in the month of Shravan while today it is in Vaishakha. Thus the summer is shifted by four months, hence Krishna's period comes to 4x2000 = 8000 years ago approximately. This means about 6000 years B.C., the same period we have seen above.
At the time of Mahabharat, the Vernal Equinox was at Punarvasu. Next to Punarvasu is Pushya Nakshtra. Vyas used "Pushyadi Ganana" for his Sayan method, and called Nirayan Pushya as Sayan Ashvini. He shifted the names of further Sayan Nakshtras accordingly. At that time Winter Solstice was on Revati, so Vyas gave the next Nakshatra Ashvini the first palee in the Nirayan list of Nakshatras. Thus he used Ashvinyadi Ganana for the Nirayan method. Using at times Sayan names and at times Nirayan names of the Nakshatras, Vyas prepared the riddles. By the clue that Nirayan Pushya means Sayan Ashvini, it is seen that Nirayan names of Nakshatras are eight Nakshatras ahead of the Sayan names Thus the Saturn in Nirayan Purva, and Sayan Rohini, Jupiter was in Nirayan Shravan, and Sayan Swati (near Vishakha), while the Mars was in Nirayan Anuradha, and Sayan Magha, Rahu was between Chitra and Swati, by Sayan way means it was in Nirayana. Uttara Ashadha (8 Nakshtras ahead). From these positions of the major planets we can calculated the exact date. My procedure is as follows:
I found out that on 5th May 1950, the Saturn was in Purva Phalguni. From 1950 I deducted 29.45 years to get the year 1920 when the Saturn was again in Purva. In this way I prepared a vertical column of the years when the Saturn was in Purva. Similarly, I prepared vertical columns of the years when the Jupiter was in Shravan and Rahu in Uttara Ashadha. Then I searched in horizontally to find out the year common in all the three columns. It was 5561-62 B.C. when all the three great planets were at the required places. Then I proceded for the detailed calculations.
Bhisma expired at the onset of Uttarayan i.e. on 22nd December. This is a fixed point according to the modern Scientific Calendar. He was on the arrow-bed for 58 nights and he had fought for ten days. Hence 68 days earlier than 22nd December the War had started. This shows that the War started on 16th October. We have to calculate the plane- tary positions of 16th October 5561 B.C.
<hr width="100%"> SATURN
Encyclopedia of Astronomy by Larousse states that one rotation of Saturn takes 26 years and 166 days. One year means 365.25 days. So the Saturn's round takes 29.4544832 years.
5th May 1950, Saturn conjugated with Purva. We have to see its posi- tion in 5561 years B.C. 5561+1950 = 7511 years. 7511 divided by 29.4544832 gives 255.00362 rounds. This means that Saturn completed 255 rounds and has gone ahead by 0.00362 or 1.3 degrees. Hence Saturn was in conjugation with Purva on 5th May 5561 B.C. On 16th October' 5562nd B.C. i.e. 164 days later it must have travelled (0.0334597 degrees (daily pace) multiplied by 164 days =) 5.487 degrees. So Saturn was at 141 degrees or in Purva Nakshatra.
In October 1962, Saturn was at 281 dgrs. 1962 + 5561 = 7523 years. 7523 devided by 29.4544832 gives 255.41103 turns. After completing 255 full turns, Saturn has gone back by 0.411003 turn i.e. 148 dgrs. 281-148= 133 degrs. This was the position of Saturn in Purva.
Calculating from 1931 or 1989 also Saturn appears at 141 dgrs. in Purva. Thus on 16th of October 5562nd B.C. Saturn was in Purva as told by Vyas in Mahabharat.
Rahu takes 18.5992 years per rotation. It was at 132 dgrs. on 16th Oct. 1979. 1979 + 5561 = 7540, divided by 18.5992 gives 405.39378 turns. 0.39378 turns means 141.7 dgrs. Rahu always goes in reverse direction. We have to go in the past, so adding 141.7 to orginal 132 we get 273 dgrs. This is Uttarashadha where Rahu was situated (by Nirayan method).
Calculations from 1989, 1962 and 1893 confirm Rahu in Uttara Ashadha.
Jupiter takes 11.863013 years per rotation. On 16th October 1979, it was at 129 dgrs. 1979+5561 = 7540. 7540 divided by 1.863013 gives 635.58892 turns. 0.58892 turn means 212 dgrs. So Jupiter was 212 dgrs behind the orginal position. 129 - 212 = -83. -83 means 360 - 83 = 277 degree 277 dgrs is the position of the star of Shravan. So Jupiter was in conjugation with Shravan. The span of Shravan is 280 deg. to 293 deg.
Calculations from 1989, 1932 and 1977 show Jupiter in 285 and 281 degrees or in the zone of Shravan. This confirms the position told by Vyas.
Mars takes 1.88089 years per rotation. On 16th October 1979, Mars was at 108 dgrs. 1979 + 5561 = 7540 yrs. 7540 divided by 1.88089 gives 4008.7405 turns. 0.7405 turns means 266 dgrs., Mars was 266 dgrs behind the original position of 108 deg. 108 - 266 = 158. 360 - 158 = 202 deg. This is just beyond the star of Vishakha which is at 200 dgrs. Though in Vishakha-zone Mars has crossed the Star of Vishakha and intends to go in Anuradha, so the description of Vyas as "Anurad- ham Prarthayate" that it requests or appeals Anuradha, appears to be correct.
Calculations from 1962 and 1900 show Mars at 206 and' 208 dgrs and therefore though in Vishakha, it can be called as appealing Anuradha "Anuradham Prarthayate". Thus it is seen that Vyas has used tricky but correct terms. He has not written any false statement because he was the Truth-abiding Sage.
HELIOCENTRIC AND GEOCENTRIC
Here an expert may raise a question whether I have used Heliocentric method or Geocentric method. I make it clear here that I have used the Heliocentric method that means I have considered the rotations of planets around the Sun. But after fixing the position of the planet around the Sun I have also seen where that planet will be seen from the earth.
I would like the scholars to consider one more point here. When I say that an insect is sitting near one o' clock position on your watch or clock, one may think that the insect is between 12 and 1 while other may think that it is between 1 and 2. So the span to find that insect is from 12 to 2. Similarly Vyas has mentioned the Nakshatra in the vicinity of the planet and therefore we have a scope of one Nakshatra on either side to find out the planet. Thus if our answer is between +13 deg. and -13 deg. from the given position we are successful. In my calculations I have achieved the perfect positions, but by chance, somebody gets a different position he is requested to consider a span of -,+ 13 degrees. The positions given by other scholars are far away than the positions recorded by Vyas, so they are not acceptable.
I request the scholars, to be careful while doing calculations not to take a retrograde position of the present planet, because that may give a false position. Please note that all the planets become retro- grade only apparently when our earth is approaching them. We need not consider their retrograde motion each year because their rotational periods around the Sun are fixed and in that they are seen retrograde from the earth apparently. We have to see if the last position of the planet is retrograde. This can be done easily by considering the position of the Sun and planet. Any external planet becomes retrograde when it is in the house from 5th to 9th from the Sun.
Please note that i have taken 365.25 days for a solar year. It covers the general leap years, but it does not take into account the leap years abandoned at centuries. At the interval of 400 years leap years are taken according to the modern scientific calendar. If these cen- tury years are considered, there may be an error of 50 days in 7500 years duration. As for dates these 50 days are automatically accounted for because we have taken the winter solstice as fixed on 22nd December, and it is referred by Vyas, while describing Bhishma's death. As far as the planets like Saturn, Rahu and Jupiter are con- cerned 50 days are immaterial because in 50 days the Saturn will move only 1.6 deg. while Jupiter 4.1 deg. as an average. Hence their error is negligible.
Now, we have seen that all the four important planets satisfy their positions as told by Vyas on 16th October 5562nd B.C. Hence we have no other way but to accept this date as the exact date of Mahabharat War.
Please note that, so far, not a single Scholar has shown a date with the planetary positions satisfying the description by Vyas in Mahabharat. Late Mr. C. V. Vaidya and Prof. Apte show 3102 B.C., but their Mars is in Ashadha, Jupiter is in Revati, Saturn in Shatataraka and Rahu in Jeshtha. Prof. K. Shrinivasraghavan, Mr. Sam- pat Ayangar and Sheshagiri show 3067 B.C. but they put Jupiter and Saturn in Rohini and Sun, Rahu, Mars in Jeshtha. Garga, Varahmihir and Tarangini show 2526 Before Shaka i.e. 2449 B.C. But their Mars comes in Dhanishtha, Jupiter and Saturn in Bharani and Rahu in Hasta. P.C. Sengupta gives 2448 with Saturn 356 deg., Jupiter 8 deg., Mars 157 deg., Venus 200 deg., Sun 200 deg., (Ancient Indian chronology" Calcutta University). The Western scholars as well as Romeshchandra Datta and S. B. Roy show 1424 B.C. but their Saturn is in Shata- taraka, Jupiter in Chitra, Rahu in Purva and Sun in Anuradha with no eclipse. Billandi Ayer shows 1193 years B.C. but his Mars comes in Mula, Jupiter in Purva Bhadrapada, Saturn in Purva Ashadha and Rahu in Punarvasu. At 900 B.C. as is proposed by many other scholars, Jupiter comes in Mula, Rahu in Vishakha and Saturn in Jeshtha. Thus not a single scholar could coroborate his date with the facts written by Vyas.Hence, their dates have to be dismissed. (C. V. Vaidya's Upasamhar page 94." Age of Mahabharat War").
I have shown all the planetary positions correct to the description of Mahabharat. In addition I have shown that the seasons tally with my date, and the seasons never tally with other dates. I have solved all the planetary riddles from Mahabharat which nobody could dare. So 16th October 5562nd BC. is the exact date of the first day of the Mahabharat War. At the beginning of the War, Vyas promised Dhrutarashtra that he will write history of the Kauravas; so most probably Vyas must have written the Astronomical data immediately.
URANUS (known to Vyas in 5561 B.C)
All the planets, viz., Sun, Moon, Mars, Jupiter, Venus, Saturn and Rahu show correct positions mentioned in the Mahabharat on 16th December 5561 B.C. This must be the exact date of the Mahabharat War. After pin-pointing the exact date, it struck to me that the three additional planets mentioned with positions by Vyas, may be Uranus, Neptune and Pluto. Vyas has named them as Shveta, Shyama and Teevra. Let us see if the conjecture is correct. We have to prove this with the help of Mathematics, because we have to go scientifically.
Vishesheena hi Vaarshneya Chitraam Pidayate Grahah....[10-Udyog.143]
Shevtograhastatha Chitraam Samitikryamya Tishthati....[12-Bheeshma.3]
In these two stanzas, Vyas states that some greenish white (Shveta) planet has crossed Chitra. This means that the planet was in Swati (or Vishakha, because Chitra and Swati are close together). This is the Sayan position hence Nirayan position is eight Nakshatras ahead in Shravan (or Dhanishtha). Neelakantha calls this "Mahapata" which means having greater orbit. Greater orbit indicates a planet beyond Saturn. Hence I assumed Shveta to be Uranus. Let us calculate and see if this true.
In October 1979, Uranus was at 206 degrees. Uranus takes 84.01 years per rotation. 1979 + 5561 = 7540. 7540/84.01 = 89.75122 turns. 0.75122 rotation means 270.4392 degrees. 206-270 = -64 = 296 degrees. This comes in the zone of Dhanishtha, but the star of Dhanishtha is at 297 degrees, so the position given by Vyas is confirmed. Hence Shveta must be Uranus.
In October 1883, Uranus was at 151 degrees. 1883 + 5561 = 7444 years. 7444/84.01 = 86.608498 rotations. 0.608498 turn means 219 degrees. 151-219 = 292 degrees. This is Shravan Nakshatra. So Uranus was in Shravan during Mahabharat War as stated by Vyas under the name of "Shveta".
1930 calculations show Uranus to be at 292.54 degrees or Shravan. Thus our mathematics proves that Vyas has given correct position of Uranus under the name of Shveta. This proves that Vyas had the knowledge of Uranus under the name of Shveta, supposed to have recently discovered by Herschel in 1781. Shveta means greenish white. Uranus is actually greenish white in colour. So Vyas must have seen Uranus with this own eyes. Uranus is of 6th magnitude and is visible to the naked eye according to the modern science.
Neelakantha of 17th century also had the knowledge of Uranus or Shveta. He writes in his commentary on Mahabharat (Udyog 143) that Shveta, or Mahapata was a famous planet in the Astronomical science of India. Neelakantha was about 100 years before Herschel, who sup- posedly discovered Uranus. So we can conclude that one hundred before Herschel, Uranus was known to the Indian Astronomers and Vyas had discovered it at or before 5561 year B.C.
NEPTUNE (was known to Vyas in 5561 B.C.)
In 1781 A.D., Herschel discovered Uranus; but its calculated positions never corroborated with the actual positions. So the experts thought of another planet beyond Uranus. They fixed its position by mathemat- ics, and at that site, it was discovered by German Astronomers in 1846 A.D. I have found that Neptune is also mentioned by Vyas in Mahabharat, under the name of "Shyama".
Shukrahah Prosthapade Poorve Samaruhya Virochate Uttare tu Parikramya Sahitah Samudikshyate....[15-Bheeshma.3] Shyamograhah Prajwalitah Sadhooma iva Pavakah Aaindram Tejaswi Naksha- tram Jyesthaam Aakramya Tishthati...[16-Bheeshma.3]
Here Vyas says that there was some luminary with Venus in Poorva Bha- drapada. He adds further that a bluish white (Shyama) planet was in Jyeshtha and it was smoky (Sadhoom). Saayan Jyeshta means Nirayan Poorva Bhadrapada, so this is the description of one and the same planet named by Vyas as Shyama. Neelkantha calls it "Parigha" in his commentary on Mahabharat. Parigha means circumference, so this planet may be at the circumference of our solar system.; and so may be Nep- tune. Let us see by Mathematics is this statement is true. We will determine the position of Neptune on 16th December 5561 B.C.
Neptune takes 164.78 years per rotation. It was at 234 degrees in 1979. 1979 + 5561 = 7540 years. 7540 divided by 164.78 gives 45.75798 rotations. 0.75798 turn means 272.87 degrees. 234 - 272.87 = -38.87 = 321.13 degrees. This is the site of Poorva Bhadrapada. So Neptune was in Poorva-Bhadrapada during 5561 B.C.
In 1948, Neptune was at 172 degres. 1948 + 5561 = 7509. 7509/164.78 gives 45.56985 turns. 0.56985 turn means 205 degrees. 172-205 = -33 =360-33 = 327 deg. This is the zone of Poorva Bhadrapada.
In 1879, Neptune was at 20 degrees. 1879 + 5561 = 7440 years. 7440 divided by 164.78 gives 45.15111 turns. 0.15111 turn means 54.39 deg. 20 - 54.39 = -34.39 = 360 - 34.39 = 325.61 degrees. This is Poorva- Bhadrapada.
Thus the position of Shyama or Parigha is factually proved in the case of Neptune. Thus, we conclude that Vyas did know Neptune too. Vyas might have got his knowledge by Yogic Power or by Mathematics or by using telescopic lenses. Mathematics was far advanced then, that is why ancient Indian sages fixed the rate of precession of Equinoxes accurately. Even the world famous scientist Gamov praised the sages for their remarkable work in Mathematics. So could have mathematically calculated the position of Shyama or Neptune.
Mirrors are mentioned in the Mahabharat. So lenses too might have been present at that time. They had Microscopic Vision (Shanti A. 15,308). As microscopic vision was present, there might be telescopes too. Planets can be seen with mirrors as well as lenses. Vyas must have "seen" Neptune; its proof lies in the fact that he says that it is bluish white (Shyama). Neptune is, in fact, bluish white in colour. Hence we conclude that Neptune was known to Vyas in 5561 B.C.
PLUTO (was also known to Vyas in 5561 B.C)
Krittikaam Peedayan Teekshnaihi Nakshatram......[30-Bheeshma.3]
Vyas states that there was one Nakshatra, i.e, some immobile liminary troubling Krittika (Pleides) with its sharp rays. This "star" in Krit- tika must have been some "planet". It must have been stationary for many years, that is why Vyas called it Nakshatra which means a thing that does not move according to Mahabharat itself [Na Ksharati Iti Makshatram].
Hence the Nakshatra was a planet moving very slowly like pluto which takes nine years to cross one Nakshatra of 13 degrees. My assumption that this Nakshatra was Pluto gets confirmed by B.O.R.I (Bhandarkar Oriental Research Institute?) Edition which states thus :
Krittikasu Grahasteevro Nakshatre Prathame Jvalan...... [26- Bhishma.3]
Some editions mention 'Grahasteekshnah'. Thus Teevra, Teekshana and Nakshatra are the names of one and the same planet (graha) which was in Krittlka in 5561 B.C. Let us see if Vyas has given these names to Pluto and if Pluto was in Krittika. It is stated that Krittika was troubled with sharp rays by that planet - this indicates that it was Nirayan Krittika.
Pluto was at 175 degrees in 1979. It takes 248 years per rotation. 1979+5561=7540 years. 7540 divided by 248 gives 30.403223 turns. 0.403223 turn means 145 degrees. 175 - 145 = 30 degrees. This is the site of Krittika. Thus it is proved beyond doubt that Vyas bas men- tioned the position of Pluto, which was discovered to the modern world in 1930. Vyas could have used his Yogic Vision or mathematical brain or a lens or some other device to discover Teevra, Teekshna' or Nakshatra or Pluto.
Thus all the three so-called 'New' planets are discovered from Mahabharat. It is usually held that before the discovery of Herschel in 1781 AD, only five planets were known to the world. This belief is wrong because Vyas has mentioned 'seven Great planets', three times in Mahabharat.
Deepyamanascha Sampetuhu Divi Sapta Mahagrahah....[2-Bhishma.17]
This stanza states that the seven great planets were brilliant and shining; so Rahu and Ketu are out of question. Rahu and Ketu are described as Graha' 23 meaning Nodal points. (Parus means a node). Evidently Rahu and Ketu are not included in these seven great planets. The Moon also is not included, because it was not visible on that day of Amavasya with Solar Eclipse. From the positions discovered by me and given by Vyas it is seen that Mars, Sun, Mercury, Jupiter, Uranus, Venus and Neptune were the seven great planets accumulated in a small field extending from Anuradha to Purva Bhadrapada. So they appeared to Ved-Vyas as colliding with each other, during total solar eclipse.
Nissaranto Vyadrushanta Suryaat Sapta Mahagrahah....[4-Karna 37].
This stanza clearly states that these seven great planets were 'seen' moving away from the Sun. As these are 'seen', Rahu and Ketu are out of question. This is the statement of sixteenth day of the War, naturally the Moon has moved away from the Sun. Hence, Moon, Mars, Mercury, Jupiter, Uranus, Venus and Neptune are the seven great planets mentioned by Vyas.
Praja Samharane Rajan Somam Sapta grahah Iva......[22-Drona 37].
Here again seven planets are mentioned, excluding the Moon.
Even if we do not consider the planetary positions, from the above three stanzas, it is clear that seven planets are mentioned which do not include the Sun, Moon, Rahu and Ketu. Naturally the conclusion is inevitable that Vyas did know Uranus (Shveta) and Neptune (Shyama) as planets.
If they were known from 5561 years B.C. then why they got forgotten ? The answer is simple, that these two planets, Uranus and Neptune were not useful in predicting the future of a person. So they lost impor- tance and in the course of time they were totally forgotten. But, in any case, Neelakantha from 17th century knew these two planets very weIl. Neelakantha is about a hundered years ancient than Her- schel, and he writes that Mahapata (Uranus) is a famous planet in the Astronomical science of India. He also mentions the planet 'Parigha' i.e. Neptune. 22 So both were known in India, at least one Hundered years before Herschel. Vyas is 7343 years ancient than Herschel, but still he knew all the three planets Uranus, Neptune and Pluto.
<hr width="100%"></center> <center>ADDITIONAL EVIDENCE
</center> Kshaya or Vishvaghasra Paksha
A fortnight of only thirteen days is told by Vyasa which occured just before the great War. Such a fortnight comes at the interval of 22 years. Calculations show that at 5562nd B.C. Kshaya Paksha did occur. It had occured 1962 and 1940. 1962+5562 = 7524 is completely divisi- ble by 22.
Krishna and Karna fixed the day of War on Amavasya (Udyog 142). Vyas also indicates in Bhishma 2 & 3 that the War started on the day second Amayasya, because two successive Amavasyas appeared then. Bhishma died on the day after 67 (58+9) nights from the onset of the War, on the occasion Uttarayan i.e. 22nd December. So the War must have commenced on 16th October. Let us see if Amavasya comes on this day.
In 1979, Amavasya was on 21st of October. Amavasyas repeat after the intervals of 29.53058 days. The Lunar year is of 354.367 days while the Solar year is 365.25 days. 1979+5561 = 7540 multiplied by 365.25 and divided by 354.367 gives 7771.5616 Lunar years. 0.5616 Lunar year means 199.0125 days. 199.0125 divided by 29.53058 gives 6.7392005. This indicates that 6 Amavasyas are completed and 0.7392005 lunar month or 22 days are left. These 22 days are left for 21st October and we have to go behind upto 16th October. So adding these 6 days to 22 we get 28 days. After 28 days Amavasya can occur. After 29 days it always occurs. Thus on 15th and 16th October 5562nd year B.C, there were two successive amavasyas as mentioned by Vyas.
Another method gives the same conclusion. At the interval of 19 years the Amavasya falls on the same date. 19x365.25 divided by 29.53058 gives 235.00215. So in 19 years 235 Amavasya are completed. I found that on 17th October 1963, there was an Amavasya. 1963+5561 = 7524 divided by 19 gives 396. This division is complete, so there was an Amavasya. Thus it is established that Vyas has reported Amavasya correctly.
Vyas has mentioned that there was Solar as well as Lunar eclipses in one month at the time of Mahabharat War. Calculations confirm that in October 5561 year B.C, both the Solar and Lunar eclipses did occur. Rahu and Ketu were in Uttara Ashadha at 273 deg. & 279 deg. so total eclipse of the Sun took place on the Margashirsha Amavasya day Only 13 days earlier, according to Vyasa, there was Pournirma with lunar eclipse, causing pallor of the Moon. Thirteen days earlier the sun would have been 13 deg. behind at (279 - 13 =) 266 in Purva Ashadha. It was Pournima so the Moon was diagonally opposite at (266-180=) 86 deg. in Punarvasu, just beyond Mruga, so it was Margashirsha Pournima though it is wrongly or enigmatically told to be Kartika Pournima. Rahu was at 273 deg., so Ketu was diagonally opposite in Punarvasu, so the ellipse of the moon was possible which was not total.
A Big comet
Vyas has mentioned that at the time of Mahabharat War a big comet was seen just beyond Pushya Nakshtra. There are many comets. Indian Astro- nomical works refer to more than 500 comets, but big comets are very few. Haley's comet is one of the big comets which comes at the regu- lar intervals of 77 years. It was seen in 1910 and 1987. If we add 1910+5561 = 7271. 7271 is divisible completely by 77. Evidently it seems that it was Haley's comet was seen at the Mahabharat War.
<hr width="100%"> <center>Conclusion
</center> All the twelve planets confirm their said positions on 16th October 5561 years B.C. along with two Amavasyas, two eclipses, Kshaya Paksha and a Comet. Thus, in all 18 mathematical positions fix the same date. Therefore, we have to accept this date of the Mahabharat War, if we want to be scientific. Please note that all the twelve planets will come in the same positions again only after 2229 crores of years. That means it will never happen again in the life of our earth, because life of the earth is only 400 crores of years. So the date of the Mahabharat War is pin-pointed as 16th October 5561 B.C.
<hr width="100%"> <center>APPENDIX
</center> Hereunder is provided a short table dates of important Mahabharat events in years. (Dates and Tithis in years in Rama Samvat assuming Shri Rama Samvat 1st January. 1 equivalent to 1st Jan 7323 B.C. Rama's birth date has been conclusively proved to be 4th Dec. 7323 B.C.( "Vastav Ramayan").
Going to forest 4th Sept. 5574 BC
Kitmeet Killed 7th Sept. 5574 BC
Going underground 19th May 5562 BC
Keechak killed 1st April 5561 BC
Anukeechak-Massacre 2nd April 5561 BC
End of secret life 9th April 5561 BC
Cows stolen 15th April 5561 BC
Arjuna exposed 16th April 5561 BC
All pandavas exposed 19th April 5561 BC
Marriage of Uttara 4th May.
Krishna set out for a treaty. 27th Sept.
Stay at Upaplavya 27th Sept.
Stay at Vrukshthala 28th Sept.
Dinner to Brahmins 29th Sept.
Entry into Hastinapur 30th Sept.
Krishna meets Kunti etc. 1st Oct.
Invited for meeting 2nd Oct.
First meeting 3rd Oct.
Second meeting and an attempt 4th Oct.
to arrest Krishna.
Third meeting Vishvaroopa 7th Oct.
Stay at Kunti 8th Oct.
Krishna meets Karna. War 9th Oct.
Krishna returns 9th Oct.
Pandavas preparation 11th Oct.
Mahabharat war started 16th Oct.
Abhimanyu killed 28th Oct. 5561 BC.
End of War 2nd November 5561 B.C.
Yudhishthira crowned 16th Nov. 5551 BC.
Bhishma expired 22nd Dec. 5561 BC
Pandava campaign 15th Jan. 5560 BC
Parikshita born 28th Jan. 5560 BC
Pandavas return 25th Feb. 5560 BC
Ashvamedh Deeksha. 1st March 5560 BC
Return of Arjuna Horse 15th Jan. 5560 BC
Ashvamedh yajna 22nd Feb. 5559 BC
Dhrutarashtra went to forest 18th Aug. 5545 BC
Pandavas visited Kunti 18th Aug. 5543 BC
Death of Kunti, Dhrutarashtra, Sept./Oct. 5541 BC
Yadava Massacre 5525 B.C.
Parikshit Dead 5499 B.C.
<hr width="100%"> <center>References
</center> P.V.Vartak, Swayambhu (in Marathi), Ved Vidnyana Mandal, Pune
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