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Posts posted by Sirona

  1. Hari bol and hi,

    there are indeed several Gitas (I think 13), e. g. a Ganesha Gita. The only one that I have ever seen and read (left aside the Bhagavad-Gita) is the Ashtavakra Gita. So I presume there's a good chance that there is a Shiva Gita too. I hope this is helpful to you.

  2. Hari bol and hi,

    there are indeed several Gitas (I think 13), e. g. a Ganesha Gita. The only one that I have ever seen and read (left aside the Bhagavad-Gita) is the Ashtavakra Gita. So I presume there's a good chance that there is a Shiva Gita too. I hope this is helpful to you.

  3. One either prays the "Joyful" or the "Sorrowful" or the "Glorious" Mysteries. It is a little bit difficult to explain what is wrong with the "joyful" and the "glorious" mysteries, especially to non-Catholics. It seems to me that when they look at Mary all they see is a nice young lady with a cute baby. But behind all this there stands the suffering and death of Jesus, and even more grave, the humans' guilt that led to the suffering of Jesus. I do not want to play down that people may commit horrible things, but church makes quite a nice hobby from putting the burden of guilt upon the shoulders of its adepts. If there was no guilt (sin) there definitely would not be no Church any more. Jesus suffered for YOU to preserve you from the RAGE of God and so on. Making people feel guilty is what makes the Church work. It is very hard to explain that specific sickening atmosphere of self-pity I have felt in a Catholic church. It can make people really sick. To my humble knowledge, in bhakti there is no space for such emotions.

    This all is a very complex topic. In fact I could spend my time writing all time, but I'll stop here. Maybe other posters could raise some new aspects.

    Peace to all.

  4. Posted Image


    A rosary chaplet is composed of a chain with five groups of 10 "Hail Mary" grains, separated by four "Our Father/ Glory" grains between them. Instead of the 5th "Our father" grain there is a little plate, often showing Mary on the one and the Sacred Heart of Jesus on the other. Attached to the plate there is a "tail", again with one "Our Father/Glory" grain, three "Hail Mary" grains, and another "Glory" grain. At the end there is a cross with Christ Crucified.


    You may start taking the cross into your hand or touching your frout, heart and shoulders with the rosary (forming a cross).


    Catholics say: *In the name of the Father, of the Son and the Holy Spirit. Amen*


    Then race down all the doctrines about Jesus established by the Church (called Apostles' Creed)

    *I believe in God, the Father Almighty, Creator of heaven and earth; and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord; Who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried. He descended into hell; the third day He arose again from the dead. He ascended into heaven, and sits at the right hand of God, the Father Almighty; from thence He shall come to judge the living and the dead. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Holy Catholic Church, the communion of Saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body and life everlasting. Amen.*


    Them move to the first bigger grain, say the "Our Father":


    *Our father, who art in heaven; hallowed be Thy name; Thy kingdom come; Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread; and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us, and lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil. Amen.*


    Move forward to the three "Hail Mary" grains, saying each time:


    *Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee; blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen.*


    Meditate about faith, love and hope repectively.


    When arriving at the next bigger grain, say

    *Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit. As it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.*


    Then you may say the prayer revealed to the kids in Fatima (optional):


    *"O my Jesus, forgive us our sins, save us from the fires of hell, lead all souls to Heaven, especially those who have most need of your mercy."*


    Keep in mind, the Our Father "introduces" a series of "Hail Mary" prayers, and the Glory (+ Fatima prayer) concludes it. According to this rule, say a new "Our Father", still keeping your finger on the last grain of the "tail", then move to the first "Hail Mary" grain in the "circle". Say ten "Hail Mary"s, moving from grain to grain. When arrived at the next bigger grain, "Glory" + Fatima prayer + "Our father" for a new series. And so on.


    When you are done with it, you should have arrived at the plate where you began.


    The rosary is traditionally concluded with the prayer "Salve Regina" which follows here:


    *HAIL, HOLY QUEEN, Mother of Mercy, our life, our sweetness and our hope! To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve; to thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this valley of tears. Turn then, most gracious advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us, and after this our exile, show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus. O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary!



    V. Pray for us, O Holy Mother of God.

    R. That we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ.

    Let us pray. O GOD, whose only begotten Son, by His life, death, and resurrection, has purchased for us the rewards of eternal life, grant, we beseech Thee, that meditating upon these mysteries of the Most Holy Rosary of the Blessed Virgin Mary, we may imitate what they contain and obtain what they promise, through the same Christ Our Lord. Amen.*


    So far for how the Rosary is prayed terms. Now something on the content:


    Each series of ten "Hail Mary"s forms a Mystery (thanks for enumerating above). Keep it in mind during the series or speak it out between the "Our father" and the first of the group of ten "Hail Mary"s, or add it like that:



    *Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee; blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus,


    Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen.*

  5. Haribol,

    I have gone through a difficult several year long transformation from Catholic to a follower of bhakti yoga. In my eyes it is O.K. if one just likes to say the Rosary without taking the rest, but in Catholic practice the Rosary is inseparably connected to suffering and death (of Jesus Christ), while the Hare Krishna maha mantra is not connected to such negative emotions. I am not one of the sixteen rounds guys, but if its appropriate I sometimes find myself humming Hare Krishna "just like that". I could not have imagined myself reciting Hail Mary for enjoyment.

  6. I feel sorry killed for the people in India, and I can understand if you feel upset by the name of Francis Xavier. In fact the place where I head something "independent" about Francis Xavier was the Indiadivine forum.

    What really lies behind all this is the bad question of violence and religion. Violence is not a phenomenon of a single religion or a single époque. It may appear anytime and anywhere.


  7. Dear friends,


    I would like to reply to your posts.

    Sorry for expressing incorrectly, but by "worshipping" I refer to a bhakti relation.

    You are right that the soul is neither male nor female, but in a bhakti relation such "external things" are important. Of course the nature of the worshipper makes no difference for the Ishvara, but the nature of the Ishvara is very important to the worshipper. A relation towards a "man" is obviously different from a relation towards a "woman". As I visited some Catholic convents I noticed that monks are more likely to turn to Mary while nuns rather "fall in love" with Jesus. So if my personal Ishvara is blue-skinned, charming and "male", if I feel that my view is supported by the Gita, and if I feel happy with it - why should I take up the service to "somebody else"? It seems that it is recommended to worship Radha along with Krishna, but is it required, and why?

    Catholics have their myriads of saints altogether with Virgin Mary. On the one hand they serve as wish-fulfillers. I learned that one should not ask Krishna for selfish desires. But why going around His friends and relatives to obtain His grace? I suppose that Krishna would not reject the petition of one of his friends made for somebody else just because He would not like to hurt His friends. So isn't it selfish, too, to ask for the grace of His friends?

    On the other hand the God of the Bible cannot be approached directly. Hearing God's voice is tremendously scary, and if you see his face, you die. Therefore the God of the Bible needs an intermediate to communicate with people. Furthermore he is a humorless big guy, constantly irant and waiting to carry out the final judgment. Therefore a whole lot of intercessors is constantly occupied with appeasing him. If God listens to nobody, at least he will listen to his mother.

    Krishna, on the other hand, seems to be well aware of His might and the fragility of people. He seems to be a humorous and friendly Person who does not intently seek to destroy people or find sadistic pleasure in it. He showed the Universal Form to Arjuna to please him only because he had demanded to see It. When Krishna noticed that Arjuna would not stand It any longer He changed back into a human-like form, calming Arjuna down. Many other people that spent their time with Krishna were not harmed, they became very happy instead.

    So, if Krishna is not choleric and his presence is beneficial to all, why should one establish a relation to him via intermediate? Why should Krishna want to have an indirect relation via messenger, contrary to a direct one?

    Recently I read some Tantric stuff. I had read somewhere that Chaitanya has been influenced by Tantric philosophy, and I did not know what it means. To sum it up, Tantra says that there are male and female deities, who depend on each other in order to reach wisdom and enlightenment. They cannot reach perfection and completeness on their own. As so much importance is given to Lady Radha although She is not mentioned in the Gita, I started to wonder whether a similar thing is considered to be true for Krishna.

    Please do not think that I do not like Lady Radha. This would be not true. I am just seeking


  8. Guess I just found a racist. I hope that rational argumentation is not useless in such cases.


    "Think about Francis Xavier what you want, cursing him is definitely no good style.


    I still hold my position. Francis has been declared a saint. If you want to know why, just ask the pope about this, not me. And because Francis has been declared a saint, he is prayed to.


    You are perfectly free to change this, but in a rational manner.




    O yeah !!! Cursing Vedic deities is very civilized and good style. You are reacting so much for a man was cursed.

    Just imagine how a Hindu feels when he reads or hears their GODS are being cursed.




    Just imagine how an average Catholic feels when he reads or hears that his favourite SAINT is being cursed. Average Catholics never read the facts about his life. He is just their object of veneration.



    Francis Xavier was a Jesuite - fact


    he belonged to the Pope's elite troop - fact, founded by Ignatius of Loyola


    to re-establish the glory of the Catholic religion. - The Catholic religion had lost it's influence in Reason of the Reformation


    By cursing Vedic religion and Vedic deities ????



    I did not curse them. Francis did.

    If he does so he is in line with the Bible that curses other religion from the very beginning. Damning other religions is the core of the Bible. Please note: I do not support this, nor am I responsible for the contents of the Bible.



    By the way what do you mean by "RE-ESTABLISH the glory of the Catholic religion". I think the church where you

    are going taught you some dubious version of history.




    The things about Reformation (Luther, Jan Hus etc.), Counter-Reformation and the Jesuites are taught in any average books on European History. I would like to add that my statement was ironical, what you can see in the context of the next phrase "So one surely can not expect lessons in religious tolerance from him. " But either you are not capable of understanding irony, or you do not want to. Sad in both cases.


    Agreed. This is true as these people cannot tolerate that other religions has some/more good in them. This is

    what I call religious bigotry.


    Call a sheep a sheep. You are right.

    You should write a petition to the Pope. I guess you will be very succesful. In 1999 or so he declared saint John Scamander, who had persecuted the Czech who followed another style of Christianity (the Hussites) He killed them and burned their leader, Jan Hus.



    "However his writings are 500 years old and he spoke only for the Caths, so his writings cannot be used as a

    measure for the attitude of today's Christians."


    What are you talking about. It is a fact that the attitude of these Caths(particularly bishops etc) has not changed a

    bit with regard to vedic religion. This is based on my personal experience.



    Based on my personal experience I can tell you that in my region the churches are empty because most of those who are interested in God have turned to other forms of religion (HINDU/BUDDHIST/ESOTERIC) and those Caths who are left have some other things to to than reading the works of some saint deceased 500 years ago.



    Did you say his writings are specifically directed to catholics(Imagine if it were a Hindu cursing your deity and

    calling it a demon and giving this sermon to Hindus). Are you trying to justify "cursing of Vedic deities as

    demons". So in effect you are saying that catholics do read such garbage which unmistakably shapes their

    opinions(even these days) of the Vedic religion given the positon of Francis Xavier in Catholic church and the

    sainthood he has received. (I don't understand how anyone can call him a saint)




    That is what you interpret into my words because you would like it to be like that. I said the very opposite. If you want to understand why people call him a saint you should somewhat get into Catholic weltanschauung. It does not matter what a saint did as long as he sacrificed himself. The Church official saint stories about the life of Francis Xavier are no historical reports but stories to increase a form of faith/bigotry and self sacrifice. If they are not true they are made up. Their meaning is always the same: Jesus sacrificed himself, saint XYZ sacrificed himself and so shall you.

    I tell you again that average Caths are not informed what their saints really did. In fact they are not informed at all, nor do they care.

    Please note that when I was a kid Francis was my patron saint and you are actually cursing what was "my deity" at that time. And you curse what is "the deity" of those who still pray to him.




    This is very typical of low minded base people and this is what Francis Xavier did. Francis Xavier is a base

    personality at the most and I have a very good reason to curse him like that.




    So you are higher minded? I wonder how being higher minded and cursing anybody goes together, because to my understanding a follower of the vedic religion should be equally minded to everybody and everything. Say the truth, call it from the roofs, publish it, because it is urgently needed, inform others, but do not curse, because this is tamas-guna, Ignorance, at its best.




    But surely Francis Xavier had no reason to attack Vedic religion in the first place. - Perfectly right.





    "Today the Pope pretends not to reject the good in other religions. As for me, I cannot estimate whether there is

    actual rejection today. " Pope is no different than the rest of the bishops.


    But the Caths are not only composed of bishops, as well as Hindus are not only composed of priests.


    Hoping for a rational discussion,



  9. Think about Francis Xavier what you want, cursing him is definitely no good style.


    Francis Xavier was a Jesuite, he belonged to the Pope's elite troop to re-establish the glory of the Catholic religion. So one surely can not expect lessons in religious tolerance from him. However his writings are 500 years old and he spoke only for the Caths, so his writings cannot be used as a measure for the attitude of today's Christians. Today the Pope pretends not to reject the good in other religions. As for me, I cannot estimate whether there is actual rejection today.

  10. Dear friends, I have a rather dumb question concerning Lord Krishna. According to my modest knowledge Lord Krishna is superior to all dualist views. However, by readiing the list of his emanations in chapter X of the Gita I cannot find any "female goddess".


    "... Ah! yet again recount,

    Clear and complete, Thy great appearances,

    The secrets of Thy Majesty and Might,

    Thou High Delight of Men! Never enough

    Can mine ears drink the Amrit of such words!

    Krishna. Hanta! So be it! Kuru Prince! I will to thee unfold

    Some portions of My Majesty, whose powers are manifold!

    I am the Spirit seated deep in every creature's heart;

    From Me they come; by Me they live; at My word they depart!

    Vishnu of the Adityas I am, those Lords of Light;

    Maritchi of the Maruts, the Kings of Storm and Blight;

    By day I gleam, the golden Sun of burning cloudless Noon;

    By Night, amid the asterisms I glide, the dappled Moon!

    Of Vedas I am Sama-Ved, of gods in Indra's Heaven

    Vasava; of the faculties to living beings given

    The mind which apprehends and thinks; of Rudras Sankara;

    Of Yakshas and of Rakshasas, Vittesh; and Pavaka

    Of Vasus, and of mountain-peaks Meru; Vrihaspati

    Know Me 'mid planetary Powers; 'mid Warriors heavenly

    Skanda; of all the water-floods the Sea which drinketh each,

    And Bhrigu of the holy Saints, and OM of sacred speech;

    Of prayers the prayer ye whisper; of hills Himila's snow,

    And Aswattha, the fig-tree, of all the trees that grow;

    Of the Devarshis, Narada; and Chitrarath of them

    That sing in Heaven, and Kapila of Munis, and the gem

    Of flying steeds, Uchchaisravas, from Amritwave which burst;

    Of elephants Airavata; of males the Best and First;

    Of weapons Heav'n's hot thunderbolt; of cows white Kamadhuk,

    From whose great milky udder-teats all hearts' desires are strook;

    Vasuki of the serpent-tribes, round Mandara entwined;

    And thousand-fanged Ananta, on whose broad coils reclined

    Leans Vishnu; and of water-things Varuna; Aryam

    Of Pitris, and, of those that judge, Yama the Judge I am;

    Of Daityas dread Prahlada; of what metes days and years,

    Time's self I am; of woodland-beasts -- buffaloes, deers, and bears --

    The lordly-painted tiger; of birds the vast Garud,

    The whirlwind 'mid the winds; 'mid chiefs Rama with blood imbrued,

    Makar 'mid fishes of the sea, and Ganges 'mid the streams;

    Yea! First, and Last, and Centre of all which is or seems

    I am, Arjuna! Wisdom Supreme of what is wise,

    Words on the uttering lips I am, and eyesight of the eyes.

    And "A" of written characters, Dwandwa of knitted speech,

    And Endless Life, and boundless Love, whose power sustaineth each;

    And bitter Death which seizes all, and joyous sudden Birth,

    Which brings to light all beings that are to be on earth;

    And of the viewless virtues, Fame, Fortune, Song am I,

    And Memory, and Patience; and Craft, and Constancy:

    Of Vedic hymns the Vrihatsam, of metres Gayatri,

    Of months the Margasirsha, of all the seasons three

    The flower-wreathed Spring; in dicer's-play the conquering Double-Eight;

    The splendour of the splendid, and the greatness of the great,

    Victory I am, and Action! and the goodness of the good,

    And Vasudev of Vrishni's race, and of this Pandu brood

    Thyself! -- Yea, my Arjuna! thyself; for thou art Mine!

    Of poets Usana, of saints Vyasa, sage divine;

    The policy of conquerors, the potency of kings,

    The great unbroken silence in learning's secret things;

    The lore of all the learned, the seed of all which springs.

    Living or lifeless, still or stirred, whatever beings be,

    None of them is in all the worlds, but it exists by Me!

    Nor tongue can tell, Arjuna! nor end of telling come

    Of these My boundless glories, whereof I teach thee some;

    For wheresoe'er is wondrous work, and majesty, and might,

    From Me hath all proceeded. Receive thou this aright!

    Yet how shouldst thou receive, O Prince! the vastness of this word?

    I, who am all, and made it all, abide its separate Lord!"


    Does this mean that Krishna is somewhat "incomplete"? Does it mean that I have to worship any female godess along with Him? Won't this all end up in some dualist mess and run contrary to the recommandation of having only one personal God (Ishvara)?


    "Nay! but once more

    Take My last word, My utmost meaning have!

    Precious thou art to Me; right well-beloved!

    Listen! tell thee for thy comfort this.

    Give Me thy heart! adore Me! serve Me! cling

    In faith and love and reverence to Me!

    So shalt thou come to Me! I promise true,

    For thou art sweet to Me!

    And let go those --

    Rites and writ duties! Fly to Me alone!

    Make Me thy single refuge! will free

    Thy soul from all its sins!" (Chapter XVIII)

  11. Haribol,



    Matthew 24



    Signs of the End of the Age


    1Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his

    attention to its buildings. 2"Do you see all these things?" he asked. "I tell you the truth, not one

    stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down."

    3As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. "Tell us," they

    said, "when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?"

    4Jesus answered: "Watch out that no one deceives you. 5For many will come in my name,

    claiming, 'I am the Christ,[1] ' and will deceive many. 6You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but

    see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7Nation

    will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in

    various places. 8All these are the beginning of birth pains.

    9"Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all

    nations because of me. 10At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate

    each other, 11and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12Because of the

    increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13but he who stands firm to the end will be

    saved. 14And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all

    nations, and then the end will come.

    15"So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,'[2] spoken

    of through the prophet Daniel--let the reader understand-- 16then let those who are in Judea flee to

    the mountains. 17Let no one on the roof of his house go down to take anything out of the house.

    18Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak. 19How dreadful it will be in those days for

    pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the

    Sabbath. 21For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until

    now--and never to be equaled again. 22If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive,

    but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23At that time if anyone says to you,

    'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'There he is!' do not believe it. 24For false Christs and false prophets

    will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect--if that were possible.

    25See, I have told you ahead of time.

    26"So if anyone tells you, 'There he is, out in the desert,' do not go out; or, 'Here he is, in the inner

    rooms,' do not believe it. 27For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so

    will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.

    29"Immediately after the distress of those days

    " 'the sun will be darkened,

    and the moon will not give its light;

    the stars will fall from the sky,

    and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'[3]

    30"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will

    mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory.

    31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four

    winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

    32"Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out,

    you know that summer is near. 33Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it[4] is

    near, right at the door. 34I tell you the truth, this generation[5] will certainly not pass away until all

    these things have happened. 35Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass




    If you want to know when (if?) Jesus comes back as our JUDGE, choose what you like: we have earthquakes to offer, famine, war and so on ...


    But remember: 34I tell you the truth, this generation[5] will certainly not pass away until all

    these things have happened.

    So the final judgement should already have occured during the times of Jesus' generation.

  12. That was very informative on St.(?) Francis Xaver. His holy day is December 3rd. I know that because it's my birthday so this man seems to be my personal saint. After reading that I really hope that he is not. All I knew before was a quotation of him that ran somewhat like that: "Everybody rushes to the East to obtain gold but let's go there to obtain souls instead." Very romantic indeed but nothing of this is true. Posted Image I wonder why the Church always falsifies the life of such persons Posted Image - maybe that's necessary to make possible their canonization. If I remember correctly he was a Jesuite, and it were the Jesuites that pressed all the gold of Japan Posted Image (wasn't it like that in the Shogun movie with Richard Chamberlain ?) ... Sad, sad, sad ...

  13. I am very, very astonished about this kind of illogical reaction. All I did was asking a simple question. And I asked because I just did not know. That's all.

    By the way I have found it now. And my view is this. Baby f...ers shall be punished, no matter whether they belong to the Catholics or to any other religion.





  14. Dear Friends,


    I would like to know whether the image accompaigning the article "Origin of Shri Jagannathara Puri" currently appearing on the entry page shows the famous statue that "White" people are not allowed to visit. I am not racist, I just heard about it and I keep on wondering what the statue looks like.


  15. Forgive me if the following may hurt your feelings, but when reading the statements above, a thought just ran though my head.


    If the prophet quoted above is really such an angel of peace, why didn't he abstain even from the idea of speading his message by the means of violence? You will agree that loving one's neighbor and war go hardly together.


    Just a thought ...





  16. Tarun ji: My area - Thuringia, right in the middle of Germany, in the middle of nowhere. I know that there is an ISKCON temple in Weimar, Germany but I am not sure whether I really want to go there. I really hope it will not be out of the frying pan and into the fire. And furthermore I am not sure whether the temple still exists.


    It's a pity for the cucumber, anyway.

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