theist

I suppose they would have the same objection to tai chi chuan due to it's connection with Taoist concepts.

Just another reason to break up the present monopoly of the educational system, and let the parents choose the school.

Vouchers.

Perhaps the best course of action is to appreciate the truth where we find it.If you perceive even but a small spark of it in someone then why not try to fan that spark into a flame?

Veda is all pervading.More then just some ancient books.When it appears it behooves us to pay due honor.If it appears to be mixed then just take the essence and leave the rest.

This is the mistake most Christian's make.They can't appreciate the same truth when it appears to them in a different cultural or religious context.Therefore they come in criticizing and offending that which they have little or no knowledge of.

Is that the path we wish to follow?

Yes Avinash, I was confused as to what was meant, although I had a guess.Confusion is nothing new to me but thanks for clearly this one up.

Hare Krsna

Yes I did totally misunderstand you.My apologies.

I think in the West ISKCON is by far the most visible, so it seems natural they would get the invitation.

I think the Indian/Hindu community is having so much influence in ISKCON can be traced back to 1977 and thereafter when many in Prabhupada's institution either got fed up or were driven out leaving a large infrastructure that needed to be maintained.This may have set up a dependence on Hindu donaors to the detrement of some of Prabhupada's mood.

But the fault does not lay with the Indians IMO.Without them I wonder if there would be many of those temples still going on.

As a side issue I am experiencing a resentment from some old timers about Indians having influence as they do.Not directed to you guestji.We would do well to remember that some of those Indians do not consider themselves Hindu's but rather Vaisnanas.Better then grumbling in the background is stepping up oneself.

I truly hope your history in ISKCON was not similar to mine.I could never stay in a temple more than a few months at a time due not being able to handle discipline and various other forms of madness. /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

Hare Krsna

And where were they in 1965 when Prabhupada was trying to get help in his efforts to spread the Holy Name around the world,establishing hundreds of temples in the process?

Now you want the stage?

guest:"Answer without delay immediately."

Isn't this a little childish.You make demands for an immediate response like people have nothing else going on in their lives but to respond to you.Think first,then post and be polite, please.

You may want to try http://beliefnet.com

Unborn Children to Get Health Care

WASHINGTON (AP) - The Bush administration said Friday that it would classify

developing fetuses as unborn children as a way of extending prenatal care to

low-income pregnant women, brushing aside complaints that the move is a

backdoor way of undercutting abortion rights.

The change allows states to extend health insurance to fetuses - or even embryos -

from the moment of conception by enrolling them in the State Children's Health

Insurance Program (CHIP).

It specifically allows coverage for all fetuses even if their mothers are immigrants who

are ineligible for government help. CHIP does not cover any illegal immigrants and only

covers legal immigrants who have been in the country for five years. But babies born in

the United States are citizens and therefore eligible for assistance.

Because CHIP is aimed at kids, it does not typically cover parents or pregnant women,

although states can get permission to include adults if they ask for it. Under these new

rules, it will be a routine matter for states to add unborn children to their CHIP

programs.

``It represents a speedy new option for states that want to do more to ensure that

women get critical prenatal care that will increase the chances that their children are

born healthy,'' Health and Human Services Secretary Tommy Thompson said in a

statement Friday.

He also praised the benefits of prenatal care and called the change a

``common-sense, compassionate measure.''

The final regulation, first proposed in January, will be published Wednesday in the

Federal Register.

Women's and abortion rights groups were outraged by the move, calling it an effort to

give the fetus legal status and therefore undermine Roe v. Wade, the Supreme Court

decision guaranteeing women the right to abortion.

``To me it's a very offensive backdoor way to get coverage for a fetus,'' Laurie Rubiner of

the National Partnership for Women and Families, said Friday.

The administration says it has nothing do to with abortion.

``This has to do with prenatal care, which is undisputedly very important for the health of

mother and the health of the child,'' HHS spokesman Bill Pierce said Friday. ``It's about

that issue and that issue alone.''

Rubiner said she was particularly outraged that the administration would cover the

developing fetus carried by a legal immigrant while supporting the ban on direct

benefits for her.

``It's so offensive to immigrant women to say we don't care about you, but if you're

pregnant, we'll give your fetus coverage - but never you,'' she said.

States can already cover pregnant women under their CHIP programs, though they

need to get a waiver from the federal government. Two states - New Jersey and Rhode

Island - have waivers to cover them.

The new plan does not include any new money for the coverage. Rather, states that

want to participate would simply add to their existing programs in which they share the

cost of coverage with the federal government.

Thompson has said he also supports legislation pending in the Senate that would

allow states to automatically add pregnant women to CHIP, much as poor pregnant

women are eligible for Medicaid.

I understood your point atma.My response was just a little joke.

It is a good question because even if no one else new of the persons homosexual thoughts that person would be tempted all the time living with their desired object.Effectively countering the one of the main reasons for living in a monostary.Even worse for them if they had a separate gay ashram.

Its a lifestyle that doesn't seem to fit well into the natural course of things.

atma:"What about gay sannyasis? Where do you keep them?"

Just wondering......

Hmmmmm...In the closet? /ubbthreads/images/icons/wink.gif

Salagrama-sila in his heart takes it deeper now.

I found this part of his letter especially disturbing.

V:"There are advanced devotees in ISKCON, and it is my duty to request those who have accepted guidance and shelter under me to take shelter of other senior devotees within ISKCON, and if in doubt to consult your local GBC representative. I bear no ill toward the GBC or ISKCON, and have not ever knowingly preached in such a way that would be considered inappropriate for a representative of ISKCON."

I hope this is not the only communication he has had with those that accepted him as their spiritual master.Just a letter directing them to see the GBC for further details speaks to a mentality that is at the root of the problem.It sounds like he thinks he has fulfilled his duty by writing that paragraph.

He owes these people at the minimum a one on one, face to face explaination.He needs to hear them express their feelings on the matter at length and until they fully understand what is happening.

This impersonal "go talk to the GBC about it" is a major part of the problem there as I see it.

Krsna consciousness as personalism means more than just being able to argue dvaita over advaita.

Hare Krsna

Does sound like the stages some experience just prior to astral projecting.

I want to take this oppurtunity to recommend a book.It is called Kundalini by Gopi Krishna.

In it he details his experience of an awakening/stirring of his own kundalini-shakti.This is not a technical approach to the subject.He had no guru and he also had no understanding of what was taking place.

He is thrown from states of beatitude to madness.Close to death several times.A wild ride for him and a great read for us.

Published by Shambala in 1971.

From shvu post:"The organisation he founded is today a ragtag and bobtail outfit peopled

by a bunch of mostly unintelligent and supremely ignorant dummies.

Ignorance, per se, wouldn't be all that bad if only the Krishnas hadn't

their truckload of arrogance to go with it."

This strikes me as a very ignorant and arrogant statement.In my experience I have found lots of characters in and around temples.I being one.

Yet,even the most excentric among them knows that he is not the body,that God is a Supreme Person and that the relationship between them and God is one of loving service.(couldn't resist ethos /ubbthreads/images/icons/wink.gif )

Now how do the big time phd's with their credentials match up against that?

Home > News & Society

I was thinking about making 'a return to the stoneage joke',but even I won't be that crass.

Nigerian Woman's Stoning Sentence Provokes Debate

The Associated Press

Sept. 26--This is the tragedy facing Amina Lawal: the stronger her baby becomes, the closer she is to death. In March, the 30-year-old Nigerian divorcee was sentenced to death by stoning by a Syariah court in Bakori, in Katsina State (northern Nigeria) after she confessed to having a child out of wedlock.

The punishment for this crime will only be meted out in January 2004 after she has weaned her daughter. The child is now eight months old.Stoning for Muslims found guilty of adultery has become part and parcel of Islamic law in some Muslim countries. Although not stated in the Quran, some scholars offer as justification a quotation from Prophet Muhammad stating that ``the married man and the married woman, when they commit adultery, they stone without doubt as a punishment from God.''

Still, there is a strong counter-argument that although stoning occurred during the Prophet's time, there were only one or two recorded instances and even then, only at the insistence of the guilty party. There are further disputes among scholars. Some say that the fact that stoning is not mentioned in the Quran--although it was practised during the time of revelation--can be understood as a sign of God's disapproval.

Yet today, death by stoning is still prescribed as punishment for adultery. As the world watches, Muslim countries in particular will anxiously await the outcome and ask: is this a glimpse of the future?

Lawal's case is especially crucial for Malaysians given hudud in Kelantan and Terengganu. Barring constitutional amendments, stoning may become a reality in Malaysia one day.

Her case, now being appealed, has provoked international outcry.Government and human rights groups around the world have urged Nigerian President Olusegun Obasanjo to intercede. The president has said he doesn't believe the sentence will be carried out-but will weep for Lawal if it is. She is the second Nigerian woman to be sentenced to death by stoning for adultery. The first was Saffiya Husseini, who was acquitted earlier this year.

Lawal's ordeal began after two unhappy marriages, which left her with three children. She began a relationship with Yahaya Mohammed two years ago, claiming that Mohamed had promised to marry her if she consented to a physical relationship. In November last year, her daughter Wasila was born.

Soon after, Lawal was arrested by villagers and brought before a Syariah area court, where she was charged with the crime of adultery. Under the Syariah criminal law in Katsina, having a baby, while divorced, amounts to a confession to the crime of adultery. She was offered no defence counsel, nor told what the punishment would be if she pleaded guilty.

Mohamed said that although he had courted Lawal for over 11 months, he had never had any sexual relationship with her. He pleaded not guilty to the charge and was duly discharged as there was no witness to the crime.

Under Islamic law, a male Muslim can only be convicted of adultery if there are four male Muslims of religious background as witnesses. If there are no witnesses, only his confession will be admitted as proof. A woman's guilt, however, can be proven by the child she gives birth to.

Lawal's lawyers, who were appointed by Nigerian human and women's rights groups, are hoping to convince the Appeals Court that she was not guilty on technical grounds-that the baby was conceived before Syariah went into effect in Katsina.

If all efforts fail, Lawal will be the first person to be stoned to death for committing adultery since the 12 Muslim states in northern Nigeria adopted Syariah in 2000. In the meantime, she is in hiding with her daughter for fear that someone might carry out the execution before her appeal is heard.

Hope they get together on this one.

GBC:"Of course his departure from sannyasa also raises other questions

regarding how to better help maintain all our sannyasi's in their chosen

asrama. This indeed is a subject that will require more thoughtful

reflection and meditation and one that requires a very measured and

considered response."

Jagat:"Some time back, I wrote to some devotees in Iskcon suggesting that the society should create a number of sannyas ashrams or monasteries (distinct from regular temples) where sannyasis can go into a real monastic environment where there are no women. Similar ashrams for women should also be set up. Sannyasis who travel and preach should be required to spend a minimum period of time every year (chaturmasya, Karttika) in intense bhajan to keep their sadhana pure. These ashrams could also be curing places where devotees with difficulties could be sent for cure and reflection about vocation change, etc.

Perhaps certain devotees who have a taste for bhajan could stay there year round. Of course, these ashrams would be open for retreats throughout the year for all male devotees, and for classes and certain programs during the day.

Strict rules would hold that women would not be allowed to come even for cleaning or cooking duties, which is generally allowed in Gaudiya Maths because of manpower shortages. Sannyasis would continue living, visiting, doing so many things, in other, non-sannyas ashrams where women would be present. This is because Saraswati Thakur's sannyasi was, like the Roman Catholic priest,in the world, and thus a certain amount of compromise with the standards of sannyas shown by Mahaprabhu was necessary. The creation of sannyas ashrams would give the sannyasis a chance to regenerate their spirit of renunciation without creating tension or negative vibes in temples, etc., where women of necessity play a vital role that should and must be encouraged if the movement is to flourish.

This kind of institution would enhance the prestige of the sannyas ashram in Iskcon and would also empower sannyasi preachers who tend to get overinvolved in management and other superficial activities. These ashrams could also function as Vaishnava universities for Brahmins."

Glad to see you are still here.You know this is a limited medium and we often misunderstand the energy behind the post.We all do that.

I don't know about the fall of the jiva.I do myself experience those same contradictory feelings for any given object.I find myself trying to acquire the very thing I want to renounce.Material consciousness means imbalanced.Always wavering from this side to that one, and then back again,like a pendulum(sp?too lazy to look it up).

I'm thinking that when we are steadied through loving attachment to Krsna and His service, that is spiritual life.The rest is either misdirected or mixed in some phase of sadhana.Anyway we have strayed from the one sentence idea.Which I still think is a good excercise.

Concerning disagreements here, they are ok and we can learn from them.I feel stiffled in an atmosphere where people are forced to go along to get along. Aparadha is all I feel I need to avoid saying or hearing.

There are so few souls in this world that share these interests that if we all don't hang together I'm lost.

Haribol ethos

why?this board is not a sports field.We are simply talking and supposedly helping each other remember the Supreme.

Sorry if I offended you.

Haribol ethos,

Yes servant of God is what we are but that wasn't the question you posed.

Everyone is a servant of God,directly or indirectly,even the so-called atheist.

Directly through love is spiritual life.

Dharma and Greg,Hi, those names sound familiar somehow..Hmmm? /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

No we are not competing ethos.I'm just tracking along with the excercise.Which is a great one.Forcing the mind to condense into a few words the question"What is spiritual life" is not as easy as it sounds at first.

There is that verse from the CC,"Essential truth spoken concisely is true eloquence."I may have misquoted but that's the general idea.

Without the love is it spiritual life?

Haribol

shvu's post:"Of all the things that bothered me, none was as troubling as their

"our way is the only way and all others are wrong" rhetoric. This

attitude runs totally counter to the Hindu tradition of allowing for

a multiplicity of views and instead sounds more like the Christian

missionary or Islamic way of doing business."

So what can we learn from this one part.One thing is Prabhupada wasn't trying to make everyone Hindus.It is also true that loving service to Krsna is uncompromisingly taught,as it should be.

How to maintain a straight forward uncompromising position on the goal of life without alienating those that we are trying to share that with can be tricky.

Here are afew questions I ask myself in this regard.

How do I view the person I am speaking to?Do I see that person as spiritsoul with Paramatma residing also within his heart, or am I just seeing that his views are ifferent then mine?If I just approach his views,ignoring the real person,then I may be just attempting to conquer his ego for the satisfaction of my own.That is not the Krsna consciousness movement.

I may be saying all the right words but is my motive sattvic?Do I really have that soul's best interest in mind?

You know in such a confrontation(which is what it really is)the person I am supposedly trying to help is sure to become defensive himself in response to my egos trying to conquer him.Now what good can be expected from such an interaction?

I should ask myself if I have taken the time to develop some genuine rapport with this other person.Afterall just because he holds a differing opinion doesn't make him an enemy.That rapport when developed makes it possible for the person we are speaking to to actually feel like they may want to listen to us and consider what we are saying.And if after doing so they still disagree, well that is their God given right.That rapport also makes them more likely to return to the temple,or wherever, for further interactions.

The focus should be on sharing the prasadam and chanting.Many people are not so philosphically inclined.Some are.But everyone likes a friend.I must remember that it is by the power of Krsna's attractive nature that anyone gets drawn in anyway,not my ability to dominate a conversation.

Please forgive any offenses here, I mean none.

Critics are often great friends.They tell us things are so-called friends are afraid to say.Even though they may be filled to the brim with their own arrogance, that is not what we should focus on.If we don't get defensive and dispassionately consider what they tell us we will find a great oppurtunity for growth.

What is a stated goal of the Krsna conscious movement?Isn't it to become lower than the straw in the street?Krsna is so kind that he sends all sorts of people to help us achieve our stated goals.

Of course, when that criticism is directed personally towards one spiritual master or another of Krsna's devotee all bets are off and one should cover their ears and run shouting Krsna! Krsna!And if the offender gets blasted in the process, so be it.

Why should they be denied their lesson as well.Krsna is kind to all.But even if we can't give it to them know that Krsna will.

Let's look a the post put up by shvu and see if there is something there that will help us grow.

Even in the material world Krsna is being served, as Krsna is in one sense everything.But are we loving servants?

Subj: WORLD VEGETARIAN DAY - OCTOBER 1st (...just a few days away)

9/25/02 10:31:32 PM SA Pacific Standard Time

jtcd@xtra.co.nz

*****HARNESSING A GOLDEN OPPORTUNITY*****

OFFICIAL WORLD VEGETARIAN DAY - 1st OCTOBER

(Each Year) (...just a few days away - still time to organize something)

What a great opportunity to reach the masses world wide.

*Book Distribution, including Higher Taste, Adiraj prabhu's, Kurma prabhu's Great Vegetarian Dishes, etc.

*Media awareness of Food For Life, Hare Krishna Sunday Feast programs, various Krishna conscious restaurants locally and world-wide.

*Reaching the people through the media; TV, Radio, newspaper adds, KC Web-sites.

*Harinaams with prasadam distribution.

*University programs and or School programs.

.......we're sure you know of more.

...in like a needle out like a plough !!!

If we all do something we can make a difference.

Again we're being given a golden opportunity to share the philosophy and life-style that Srila Prabhupad has given us.

Please let me know what you are doing in your local area to encourage and enthuse others to do so.

Individuals all, united as one in service.

Please view VEGETARIANISM and BEYOND http://turn.to/Vegetarianism or www.hknet.org.nz/Veges-Beyond5page.htm

There are Fact Sheets, FREE Downloads, samples, Useful inks, and more information than most will ever need =>:-))

We apologize if this message is in anyway inapropriate to you due to our over zealousness, we beg forgiveness and your blessings.

transient, Yes, you are right.It goes back and forth.We please Krnsa by pleasing His devotee.We please His devotee by pleasing Krsna.

I appreciate the truth of your appraoch, even though I am too proud to take it up.

Hare Krsna

ethos,

Don't worry about some disagreement, that is natural on public forums.

Jagat is a scholar and sees through those eyes.DS is perfect for me who is not really interested in spending time learning the western philosphers in any depth, but for those already engaged in such study it may seem too brief an overview.

I think the original transcripts were lost and then begun again by Syamasundara some time later and that may account for the brevity.Not sure.

I see Dialectic Spiritualism as a seed for a larger project.What do you think?

What would be nice is if some of his learned disciples,and there are many,would flush out these points more clearly.Each major philospher should get his own book.You know, like the philosophers basic teaching juxaposed against the Krsna conscious view point.Just more in depth.One for Aristotle, one for Socrates etc.

Just a thought.

theist

as an after thought maybe if there was one thread dedicated to DS exclusively then who could complain.That would also prevent earlier excerpts from being'lost' onto the back pages.

It would seem to make sense that these muslim fanatics would want to target ISKCON.From their distorted viewpoint that is.

Western Hindus would be perceived as the proverbial killing of"two birds with one stone."

Temples in general are wide open by nature.Anyone can walk in carrying a duffle bag,looking like a sadhu, leave the bag by a column, walk to the deities as if taking darshan, leave without the bag and then BOOM a few minutes later.

They will not be reasoned with leaving only premptive strikes as an option.The ones that survive should be kept so much on the run that they don't have time to plan an attack.

That may not sound pretty, but I believe it is the only workable solution.