theist

Where does this permanent hell exist if it is apart from the 14 worlds and not spiritual?

I will never accept that some souls were made inherently evil and destined to reside in an eternal hell. Never. I don't care who says it.

3. Souls that are destined to be eternally damned.

Eternally damned souls are the ones that are by design evil. They cause harm to all living beings by nature. These souls cannot go beyond the Bhu Loka(Earth) ie they cannot go to heavenly worlds.

 

 

Are you sure here? How can a soul be by design evil when all souls are part of Krsna? And aren't all lokas temporary by nature as opposed Goloka and Vaikuntha-loka? If so what happens to the souls when their hells are withdrawn into an unmanifested state?

Considering all the time and effort Srila Prabhupada dedicated to writing his books with the aim of liberating us from our ignorance, a letter from us in support of preserving his efforts isn't asking too much. We've been grumbling for years now some bhaktas are leading a campaign to bring about a correction. Let's support them.

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On the auspicious Appearance Day of Lord Sri Nityananda, an Internet write in campaign --VOICES! -- has been launched requesting followers of His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada to express their support for "NO CHANGE!" to Srila Prabhupada's adi-vani. Adi-vani.org (02-20-03)

Letters of support and appreciation for Srila Prabhupada's authorized and approved books, of up to 2,000 words may be sent to voices@adi-vani.org. Please be sure to include your name. All submissions will be published in a special area on adi-vani.org, suitable for easy public viewing.

This is your opportunity to publicly express your appreciation, opinion and support for Srila Prabhupada's literary legacy. An offering of all submissions will be made to His Divine Grace, details to be announced.

Please show your support! Every VOICE counts!

http://www.adi-vani.org/

Farrakan all but flatly admitted it recently. He said it was internal business and everyone else should mind their own.

Now if you were to tell me that the FBI wanted him dead WHILE he was preaching violence...

He rebeled against Elijah Muhummad and that brought the wrath of the Black racists down on him.

Different stories around I guess.

Ultimately it was time that got him.

BTW Shiva thanks for recommending the Holographic Universe. Great book. I just finished the stories on stigmata.

FBI operatives Tarun? Try Louis Farrakan and the other Black Muslims, they killed Malcom X.

Some years back a black bodied pujari was trying to convince me Martin Luther King was on Prabhupada's level. I don't think so.

Vaisnava saints walk on water. Worldly "saints" still reguire a raft. Not the same level. No No No.

Understood. Thanks Kailasa. I like your emphasis on developing depth in God realization.

Hare Krsna

Haribol Kailasa,

Are you saying that everyone goes through Santa-rasa and then continue on to the rasa that is best suited for them? But Santa rasa first fir everyone?

Mxyz prabhu,

I have read a copy of Brhihat Bhagavatamritam. It was the one published by the Gaudiya Matha translated by B.V. Madhusudana. I didn't know there were others. I will look for Tripuraris.I heard that ISKCON had one in the works. That is a good tip for this subject. I am curious as to if santa is generally the aspirants first glimpse of God in the progression and what the beginning symptoms might be.

Was Arjuna's vision of the universal form considered Santa rasa? His mind was blown so much I don't know if we call that santa or not.

Where Krsna describes Himself as the intelligence of the intelligent, the light in all luminous being etc. is that santa rasa or some stage prior to it?

Hare Krsna

I agree. I just wanted to point Paul to some info. that may be of use to him. Nothing really surprises me along these lines. That is why we are encouraged to place our faith in the Supreme Person as opposed to organizations and their members "in good standing".

I find knowing that is enough.

Paul If its Mdd that you speak of she has already publicly come out with the story some years back on VNN. I don't know if they have it archived or not. It may have been on their forum which is now defunct.

Hare Krsna

>>Vajpayee announced at a rally in Himachal Pradesh that his government would soon completely ban cow slaughter in the country.<<

gHari the bearer of glad tidings!!

I'm so happy to hear this being brought up. Everyone in India should push for it hard and loud. I sense a lot may turn on this issue beyond cow slaughter.

If the Muslims or anybody else wants to eat cow flesh let them remove themselves from India to do it.

I agree.Not about guests posts one way or the other, but in principle. It is a fine line I think. We really have to get in touch with our own intent.

Its amazing really. When I try to really analyze what my own motives or intentions are I find that very often, if not most often, I am unclear myself on what motivates any particular action of mine.

It gets more frustrating when I find motivations that are in cross purposes with each other within my one mind. What to do then.

Basically I have come to believe that i have no good motive but if I can at least fake a good one and restrain as many negative acts as possible I may have a chance.

As the srory goes, once Vishnujana Maharaja was asked how he remained in bliss for so many hours while on sankirtana. He answered that he sometimes has to fake it. I took it to mean sometimes we have to force the external to do the right thing in hopes of influencing the internal.

Hope I didn't screw that up too bad.

Thanks livingentity!! It had slipped my mind completely.

Yes good instruction Babhru. Of course that has also been misused. Like with the magnificent 11 who claimed sole proprietorship over the position of acarya. Question them and you were labeled an offender and aparadhi. History shows how that turned out.

There is a way to question to have your doubts resolved and then there is gossip and fault finding.

Blind following is condemned.

Scott,

Your's is an example that is all too common I'm afraid. But it is also part of an answer to your question. You went to a local temple and didn't get much out of it. And what you were seeking was to understand communication. It appears no one there was willing to take the time to communicate with you. What does that tell?

I am assuming you went during a Sunday feast. That's when most guest's go. You probably observed that the people that knew each other stayed in their little comfort zones and made no effort to reach out to new people.

That type of behavior has become all too common as we tend to mistaken Krsna conscious gatherings for something like mundane social events. A little religious clique gets formed

and its hard to break in. Myself I don't want in but you were there to observe and learn.

I've seen it for years. The reason for that coldness is that this movement has become top heavy in talking philosophy but really low on ordinary manners and genuine human warmth.

Your post may serve as an unintended wake up call. The fact that you tried to communicate one on one and ended up having to search the internet for a facsimile of that experience I find very sad. And I am sorry Scott.

How did the attributless IT decide to manifest as these Avatars. As soon as IT decides on anything It loses IT's designation as an IT. Isn't it?

Audarya, again yes and for the reason you alluded to, people are likely to take that quote in various ways, that is why I sought something more definitive.

If things are left hazy then no one should complain that they have been misunderstood.

Thanks anyway.

Hare Krsna

I confess to a certain level of frustration concerning the original question I asked has not been answered in a clear a forthright manner.

"What does Tripurari actually teach on gay unions and other topics?"

Audarya-lila I believe that you are his initiated diciple, correct? Brahma das handles his sanga newsletter. Yet a simple strsight forward question on gay unions has not been answered? Gay unions being a sanctified relationship in the eyes of God(religion) or the state. It has binding ramifications. I know Prabhupada's position. Why can't I know Tripurari's?

Please don't refer me to go ask him in person. I am asking his disciples here.

It starts to feel like a case of plausable deniability.

Please forgive the frsustration I know is evident in my post. It's just that 4 pages and still no answer.

By Alastair Lawson

BBC correspondent in Dhaka

Thousands of people in the Bangladeshi port city of Chittagong are flocking to a Roman Catholic church where tears are reported to have been seen on a statue of the Virgin Mary.

The marble statue is kept in a glass case which scientists say could lead to condensation appearing on the Virgin Mary's face

Many of those visiting the church are Muslims, eager to see what some locals believe is a sign of the Virgin's dismay over the recent outbreak of violence in the country and elsewhere in the world.

Roman Catholic believers say it is the first time in Bangladesh that tears have been seen on a statue of the Virgin Mary.

In a country which is overwhelmingly Muslim, it is unusual for a symbol of the Christian faith to attract much interest.

But so many people are gathering outside the Chittagong church that police have been deployed to ensure law and order is maintained.

'Inquisitive'

Muslims are queuing to see the statue even though the Koran warns believers against showing an interest in religious idols.

Roman Catholics in Chittagong say that most people are queuing up to see the statue because they are inquisitive.

Around 90% of Bangladesh's 130 million population is Muslim.

In Chittagong, the second-largest city in the country, there are only around 8,000 Christians in a city of over four million people.

Many churchgoers claim the cause of the Virgin Mary's tears is recent outbreaks of violence in Bangladesh.

They point out that she has had a lot to be upset about in the last week alone.

On Monday, five people were gunned down in local election violence in the south-western district of Jhenida and, before that, there were a series of bomb explosions in the northern town of Dinajpur.

Scientists have already said that one possible explanation for the tears is the fact that the marble statue is kept in a glass case, which could lead to condensation appearing on the Virgin Mary's face.

What you describe sounds like you had become awake in your astral body while it was still in the physical body. Not being aware of what is happening can be frightening.

This used to happen to me some years ago before I started chanting. I had no idea what was going on. Tried to move my body and I couldn't. At times I would experience an INTENSE ringing and vibration running throughout my body(astral). Turns out this is more common then we realize. If one knows what is happening and can relax into it and not fight the sensations one will find themselves lifting out of the physical body all together. If not other weird experiences may take place. For instance one time I started spinning. My astral body had extended its arms at a 45 degree angle to the rest of my body and I started spinning like a propeler blade on an airplane. My arms went right through the bed and my gross form which I could now see at an incredible speed. I was very very scared.

You are chanting Hare Krsna. The odd phenomenon of this world will subside in due course as we continue to chant.

I have heard that argument Paul. And I'm sure krsna can keep track off which cows contributed to the milk He drank, even though it goes into huge vats during processing.

But we are told to protect cows. If you are drinking milk produced from the factory farms in the West you are engaging in cow slaughter. There is no way around that. If you consider that its worth it because the milk is first ceremoniously offered to Krsna I won't argue because that is your choice. Who knows you might be right. Each person will have to decide I guess.

I'm not persuaded myself. I don't see how Krsna could be pleased by this arrangement.

Hare Krsna

Babhru,

That is interesting about the cow variations. I would'nt know a zebu from a European. I have noticed some have black spots and some brown while others have none at all. I take it European cows are the most prominent in the West?

Sounds like they have isolated something for you friend to say that. Like in fish certain oils have been identified that are good for the brain. As well as DMAE and we can get these without eatting some stinking fish.

Your statement that this shouldn't become a divisive issue amongst bhaktas is well taken. I can't remember the number of times I have been called a demon because I can't digest cows milk. Then just last year in Vrndavan I was called a "traitor" because I adhere to a vegan diet. I have also seen some really angry and mean spirited vegans go after devotees. One was all over Prthu some years back as he spoke at the SF ratha yatra, a real mean young women calling him fat and a cow killer ect.

As I vegan I have found it best policy not to make waves at the temple on these issues. If someone offers me a maha-milksweet from the Lord's plate I accept with gratitude. So we can be very strict but not fanatical to the point of offending the Lord or his devotees.

I have been researching the Santa Rasa a bit and wonder if I am correct in saying that the Rasas build on each other as the devotee develops in his service to Lord Krsna.

 

 

I have the same question. I have read that one established in santa gets attracted to dasya, the mood of an active servant at some point. Perhaps someone can confirm this or add to it. And then does that dasya possibly develop into friendship paternal and congugal, if desired, with dasya as a foundation.

Also is it necessary to develop santa as in awe and veneration before the others?

Hare Krsna

Devotees will often counter the onjections to drinking milk in the context of today's factory farming culture by quoting something like this:

From Prabhupada's purport to SB8.6.12:

"In this verse, the cultivation of bhakti-yoga is compared to many material activities. By friction one can get fire from wood, by digging the earth one can get food grains and water, and by agitating the milk bag of the cow one can get nectarean milk. Milk is compared to nectar, which one can drink to become immortal. Of course, simply drinking milk will not make one immortal, but it can increase the duration of one&#8217;s life. In modern civilization, men do not think milk to be important, and therefore they do not live very long. Although in this age men can live up to one hundred years, their duration of life is reduced because they do not drink large quantities of milk. This is a sign of Kali-yuga. In Kali-yuga, instead of drinking milk, people prefer to slaughter an animal and eat its flesh. The Supreme Personality of Godhead, in His instructions of Bhagavad-gétä, advises go-rakñya, which means cow protection. The cow should be protected, milk should be drawn from the cows, and this milk should be prepared in various ways. One should take ample milk, and thus one can prolong one&#8217;s life, develop his brain, execute devotional service, and ultimately attain the favor of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. As it is essential to get food grains and water by digging the earth, it is also essential to give protection to the cows and take nectarean milk from their milk bags."

I am curious to know what substances are in milk that add to life span and those that add to brain development. If there are specific compounds can they be acquired elsewhere until we can receive milk from truly protected cows.

As it is now I don't see where devotees can claim cow protection as part of their lifestyle. The simple undeneiable fact is if you drink milk,from non-devotee farms, then you slaughter cows.

How do we get out of this perplexing situation?

Veganism does protect the Cow

by Harry Bowler

Posted February 18, 2003

After living across the road from a non-devotee dairy for a couple of years, I saw first hand how non-devotees treat cows, it was hellish and very disturbing to anyone who has conscience given to them by Srila Prabhupada.

The babies, male and female, were rounded up and sent to the meatworks when they were only a few weeks old. The cows continued to produce milk for their babies, and be exploited for this milk before becoming pregnant and going through the same process again. The cows would cry out in distress for their babies for many days after they were taken.

In a country like Australia, it is not possible to turn these cows out on to the streets to look after themselves. In India they have a totally different approach to cows, and it may be acceptable to use the milk, but in the West the average household doesn't have a cow in the back yard, and if they did, within a few years there would be a dozen cows in the backyard, ie: the cow, her calf, the calfs calf, and so on. Because cows have to keep having a calf to produce milk.

I would liken it to eating meat. The cow has to suffer and its baby has to die. That's the harsh reality of drinking milk in the western world. We have to live in the present moment and make decisions based on the circumstances that are presented before us.The truth is drinking milk obtained from these cows is blood milk. There was one argument that veganism does not protect the cow, we could take that a little further and say neither does vegetarianism. It is an ethical and spiritual choice, if Krishna says love the cows, then we can't be involved in the perpetuation of the calf killing system. Anyway, doesn't Krishna say a leaf, fruit, flower, or water? Veganism may not stop the killing of the calves, but you are opting out of the cycle and that surely has to be the most spiritual choice.

One thing I have noticed is that non-devotees are becoming increasingly more intelligent at knowing what Hare Krishnas believe in. The above arguments are constantly raised by vegan non-devotees and the meat eaters. Remember how hard it was to move out of the comfort zone and give up meat? Thats why there are all those meat substitutes. Let's try to go the extra step and give up blood milk.

without predjudice

Harry Bowler