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Posts posted by theist

  1. In the revealed scriptures, the ultimate object of knowledge is Śrī Kṛṣṇa, the Personality of Godhead. The purpose of performing sacrifice is to please Him. Yoga is for realizing Him. All fruitive activities are ultimately rewarded by Him only. He is supreme knowledge, and all severe austerities are performed to know Him. Religion [dharma] is rendering loving service unto Him. He is the supreme goal of life. SB 1.2.28-29


    Is it the attachments and the UNFUFILLED DESIRES that make it painful at the moment of death? I know that leaving your body through astral projection is not painful, as someone said earlier.
    Exactly my point which was never answered. It is the knowledge that our attachments to what we think is ours (family property ect.) and unfullfilled desires and plans for the future that will never be realized that causes us the pain.


    It is painful enough for those of us that have at least some philosophical realization that we are not the body what to speak of the person who thinks the body is the self and he is losing all chance to ever experience happiness.


    And this brings up an even more subtle point. The fear of death itself has as it's basis the fact that the soul is eternal and senses it and thus the idea of death, of non-existence causes great fear and bewilderment beyond his worldly attachments. The idea of life itself is so natural to the soul and idea of death so unnatural.


    This plus the process that causes death as in cancer or car wreck etc. are all that is painful about death not the actual separation of the astral body from the physical body. Just like it is not painful to take off one's coat when one is inside and no longer

    needs it. No difference.






    Would love to know why if anyone knows!!

    Simple. It is because we don't want to remember God.We simply still want material things.


    Right now we are talking and reading about God but our minds are only a certain small percentage upon the Lord even as we are so-called engaged in remembering Him.


    We are practicing remembering God. Really remembering God means being FIXED upon Him. Samadhi. Samadhi in bhakti can be samadhi in motion like doing service purely for Krishna's pleasure. If Arjuna would have suddenly been struck by an arrow and left his body in an instant while taking aim at a target and not looking at Krishna or directly even thinking of Him he still would have had a perfect death because he was purely engaged in doing his service to Krishna which is itself remembering Krishna.


    The word 'remember' is interesting. We are members of Krishna but have apparently dismembered ourselves to try to enjoy maya. For the jiva to remember one's self in connection with Krishna means to remember one's position as a servant of Krishna.


    So the word remembering is another way of saying yoga or being re-yoked to Him.


    So if we are smart we will try our best to live a life that leads to remembering Krishna at the time of death. But also it may be a good idea to be little greedy and ask for more than we deserve.


    We don't deserve to remember krishna at the time of death but let us beg for it anyway. Not on the basis of deserving it but on the basis of His mercy alone.

  3. To be blunt you take your dreams and what you think you see in these paintings all too seriously.


    One thing you can count on is the Lord in your heart whom at this time you may not be able to see but who can see you. Him you can pray to and try to please. He will guide you spiritually if you put your faith in Him. In sanskrit He is called Vishnu or Paramatma, the Lord in the heart.


    Hare Krishnaparamatma.gif




    Maybe now we're ready to talk to real people, in real life. T r e m b l e.


    I've been wanting to print up some basic 'we are not these bodies' flyers and pass them out at UC Berkeley campus. It's only 4 blocks away but am nervous about it. Never used to be like this. I finished high school sporting a shaved head and sikha.


    I've become a cyber isolated character hiding behind the face of Alfred E. I have almost forgotten what it is like to look into someone's eyes while talking to them. Almost.


    You are right gHari. We need to maintain some human balance.


    Also, when seeing karmi strangers ---look for a subtile marking of Viashnava Tilak marking on the foreheads of the karmi strangers.


    Yes all are Vaisnava's who worship Visnu in eternity as that is the natural function of the awakened eternal soul.


    A self realized Vaisnava sees one type of soul (minute particles of Krishna) in two conditions of life. Awake to Krishna or asleep to Krishna. The word karmi just relates to the present predicament that the sleeping souls find themselves in.


    One Father and one family of life. The vaisnava feels the oneness of every living being therefore no hatred can be found in him.


    He who sees everything in relation to the Supreme Lord, who sees all living entities as His parts and parcels, and who sees the Supreme Lord within everything never hates anything or any being. Sri Isopanishad 6


    I would just like to add one name to the list, that is Jaya Radhe Dasi, who passed away in the first few years of the forum. I think all the old timers know her. A very nice devotee and disciple of Prabhupada.


    Yes indeed. She was always a bright spot, very intelligent devotee and always had a sweet disposition towards all. She is no doubt in a very good place chanting Hare Krishna and worshipping her deity Kanea.


    Thanks to you as well. You were there from day one and have participated more than anyone else.


    Yes a long time. It was much more fun for me in the beginning days when the place was filled mostly with frustrated ex-iskconites. The debates with Narayan Maharajas students was very stimulating.


    Many of those many posts of mine I would take back if possible. So much nonsense talk I have typed. Sorry about that but that's what happens when you open the door to the public.;)


    May Krishna continue to bless you abundantly in all your endeavors JNdas.

  8. In the past few posts I questioned hindustani's suggestion that we should drop trying to understand higher concepts and just concentrate on being good human beings.


    The heart of my objection is contained within the idea of being good before seeking God. This contains the inherent idea that one has to qualify himself in some way before he can approach the Lord. I vehemently reject this idea.


    We can never become good enough on our own merit to chant the names of God. To think so would be very arrogant on our part. No special religious rites are needed. No qualification by birth is required.


    All that is required to chant the holy names is the willingness to do so. As we progree in Nam Bhajan we will become good by the influence of thew Holy Names.


    Hare Krishna


    Another analogy:


    Suppose everything is consciousness. Since nothing in our individual reality (down to the absolute quantum level) is ever static, consciousness must be an extremely dynamical phenomenon. Nevertheless, each individual person must be a relatively stable recurrent dynamical pattern of consciousness, which forms a coherent dynamical conscious system in itself.


    This may be seen as the small persistent eddies in an overall whirlpool. The small eddies are part of larger vortices, which are in turn part of larger vortices et cetera. If in this analogy each persistent dynamical pattern of a vortex is an individual person, the small eddies are individual persons and the larger vortices are also individual persons. Ultimately all individual consciousness exists within this overall whirlpool of consciousness that is itself a person.


    Now, if the overall whirlpool is God, every individual vortex or person is part of God and ultimately one with God. However, each individual person is also different from God.


    If you think this analogy is impersonalistic, then can you explain why..?


    You think too much. God's revelations are descending in that they come to us by God's grace and not by our mind. I believe in the past I addressed the difference between philosophic speculation and mental speculation.


    Anyway your point is incorrect because each vortex as you call it that comes off the individual souls is NOT a person. You have no ability to create another living being. That is done by God alone.


    Krishna has various energies. The living entities are one such energy called marginal energy and are always subordinate to Him. Marginal entities, us, are tiny points of consciousness, localized and not omnipresent. Only Krishna is omnipresent.


    He also has what is called an inferior energy which is always unconscious and makes up the energies but subtle and gross that make up these manifested universes. Your vortexs would fall under this category, Inferior, non-conscious, non-living.


    That’s no problem. It’s a bit of a shame though, because I think my latest analogy nicely illustrates the proposition in post #14, on the basis of which you accused me of impersonalism! I assume that you agree then, that this is not impersonalism:




    Agreed! :)


    The confusing thing is you are saying both things and apparently don't know it.


    By the way don't assume anything.


    Abrahamic monotheism is as authentic and spiritually genuine as the polytheism of hindus.




    The abrahamic monotheism sees fire as the creation of God and they respect it.

    Abrahamic monotheism sees air as the creation of God and they respect it.

    Abrahamic monotheism sees earth as the creation of God and they respect it.




    looking at the stuff I wrote above your quote here , you can conclude that : Abrahamic religions have the proper respect for the elements or mother earth because they are "monotheistic" and only recognize their God as worth of worship.





    Abrahamic monotheism is farce monotheism, because you can serve God by surrendering to that one true God and his messiah (their form of your idea of guru) , whilst being respectful to God's creations.


    Exactly! By respecting the the Supreme all the little nature spirit gods are respected also. No need to try to water the leaves of the tree one by one. Just water the root and the whole tree is nourished.


    the astral travel is willed-subconsciously or consciously.


    during death,YOu KNOW it's the last time...the last moment...besides,it is mentioned that when the Yamadutas forcefully separate the subtle body,the mind experiences immense pain.

    Due to this pain,the gross body is fully unconscious and the mind blanks out....


    So you are saying the pain is mental. Then that must be due to attachments as I said. The mind has no gross nervous system so what do these Yamadhutas do to create this pain?


    I don't believe it. I don't accept that version of the time of death. Heavenly or hellish. I accept that the departing souls are ushered in to the subtle atmosphere in a much gentler fashion then described in the Bhagavatam.


    The Yamadhuta story is a simplified version of the actual happenings IMO. A version for children actually.


    What do you mean this pain makes the body unconscious? The gross body becomes totally unconscious simply because the consciousness (atma) has left for good taking all vital force with it. What else could the body then be but unconscious? It has nothing to do with pain.


    Personally I don't fear death in the least. I fear rebirth a great deal. I also fear the horrible ways I may be forced to undergo death but having the gross body off my back sounds like it would be a great relief and frankly I look forward to it.


    Just see the bottom of page,there are not one but 5 threads exists on similar point which I said in my post.

    ThreadThread StarterForumRepliesLast Postbefore Das i want to b Vaishnav and before Vaishnav i want to be Human -part 5 samilHare Krishna Discussions3904-29-2005 07:16 AMbefore Das i want to b Vaishnav and before Vaishnav i want to be Human -part 4 samilHare Krishna Discussions304-27-2005 04:02 PMbefore Das i want to b Vaishnav and before Vaishnav i want to be Human- part 3 samilHare Krishna Discussions304-27-2005 03:00 PMbefore Das i want to b Vaishnav and before Vaishnav i want to be Human- Part 2 samilHare Krishna Discussions304-27-2005 02:57 PMbefore Das i want to b Vaishnav and before Vaishnav i want to be Human - part 1


    Sorry I have no interest to look up the topic on past threads. If you have anything to say on it that would be fine.


    IT IS NOT POSSIBLE TO REMEMBER ANYTHING at the time of death.The pain is unbearable.


    This raises an interesting question. Just what exactly is painful about death? The process that causes death, like diease, gunshot, traffic accident etc., may be may be painful. Also the attahments we hold in our mind may cause us pain as they are being ripped away but what could be painful about the actual separation of the subtle body from the gross body? This is an occurence that we all have nightly according to most metaphysians. Many can astral project at will and there is never any report of pain.


    As how the Gopikaa's observed Vrata for Katyayani Devi to obtain Krishna as their husband, if a guy observe the same Vrata can he obtain Krishna as his friend, if not in exact Krishna's form we know, but at the least finding the love and friendship of Krishna in some human.



    If you want Krishna as a friend all you need to is chant His name and hold the desire very strongly to be the friend of God or Krishna.


    The truth is Krishna is already the friend of everyone. Now we must become His friend.


    Hare Krishna


    Yes, I guess that’s about the epicentral question in most religious doctrines: If ordinary (material) sense perception does not represent the ultimate nature of reality, then what is the ultimate (enlightened/liberated) nature of reality? The basic idea seems to be that you go back to your essential Self, and the smaller it gets (while you are still consciously aware of what you are doing), the more essential it is. Ultimately, you get to a point where you must admit that everything is essentially nothing but your consciousness or your Self. From that point onwards, it should be clear that everything (all material structure and beings) autonomously emerge from within you, or from your Self.


    That’s my two cents, anyway.. :)


    Maybe Paramatma can be likened to the input signal of a television set. Many different broadcasts of different stations are encoded, superimposed upon each other, within a single, relatively simple alternating electrical signal. Each jivatma is tuned (by remote control) to pick out the partial signal of one particular station, which is simultaneously one with and different from the total input signal. A voila, the station’s broadcast is being received. This is also similar to, e.g., paying attention to one particular voice in a crowded and noisy public place. So, God can be both One (the simple complex signal) and variegated (composed of different conscious beings)..


    Basically you are speaking impersonalist ideas. I would suggest trying to hear Vaisnava doctrine for what it is instead of everytime trying to make it conform to your preconceived ideas on what is or should be.


    You would still be free to disagree with the Vaishnava view of Reality, of course, but at least you would know what you are disagreeing with.


    So, it seems that liberation or enlightenment is a staged process. Most probably human consciousness is already a higher stage than e.g. animal consciousness. And since we retain our individuality as conscious human beings, I don’t see why we wouldn’t retain our individuality at any subsequent liberated state of being. Even if it’s possible to completely merge into Brahman, I couldn’t say if this is to be preferred over personally "worshipping Krishna in Vaikunta"..

    . Yes it can be seen as a staged process and individuality does indeed continue after liberation. The Vaishnava's maintain that not only is individuality maintained after liberation but that there is one supreme individual who is unlimited whereas all the jivas are infitesimal. We have arrived back at the Sun and photons example which hopefully make sense to you this time around.


    The variegated spiritual world is composed of the two types of individuals and their relationship.


    However, ultimately Jivatma and Paramatma are (also) one. So I’m not sure. Maybe I don’t understand you correctly..


    By in Godhead I meant post liberation and living in the realm of eternity together.


    I take it your thought is that the jivas merge into the one great non-differentiated Self at liberation and their identities all merge as well.

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