Janus

Originally posted by amanpeter:

It is possible for the impetus to be emotional, the foundation philosophical and the process scientific. Still, we tend to perceive truth as we wish it to be in order to justify our material attachments. Without the intervention of causeless Divine Grace, all our efforts would continue to be fruitless.

 

Everything we see Peter, the sun, the moon, the entire universe, we see nowhere else except withing our own tiny heads. This is an indisputable fact proven by the modern day science of optics, but even the Yavanas or the Classicists like Aritotle were aware of it, causing him to correct the phrase "I see" to the more technically correct "I have seen", reflecting the unconscious mechanism by which images are edited to conform to our expectations and desires before appearing before our conscious appraisal. Every brief moment of our lives we are being bombarded or apprenhending hundreds of thousands of signals of sensory imput. Due to the imperfections of our senses however, as well as to factors imposed by our conditioning by the time (and there is always a brief interval, some fraction of a second between the impact of the energy from a space time even upon our sensory receptor and the appearance of the conscious precept before our minds eye), by the time any of those hundreds of thousands of signals appear before our conscious appraisal we are actually only percieving about 10 of them. 10 out of 100,000. Another thing is that the mind adds color, form and a great deal else before we obtain an image of the thing that we are viewing and thus it is a process of addition as well as of subtraction. All thoughts therefore are somewhat conjectural and inferential and yet, due to another one of our conditioned defects, the defect of being subject to delusion; we imagine ourselves to be both objective and comprehensive. The main point of this reply in answer to your post is to point out that the process that you are refering to is promarily unconscious and yet it is also, and again conditioned. We are in fact programed or conditioned from the very moment of our births to "see" or to percieve reality in a particular way, and woe betide those who percieve reality any differently that us for it substantianially reduces their chances of survival. We are thus, all of us the "walking wounded". A couple of illustrations of this are as follows. A friend of mind, a Wiccan priestess told me once of her recollection of being a little girl of about four. She was in the park and at that time she recalled that she was conscious of the voices of ther trees (some older ones are actually awake), but even as she recalled that she was conscious of this she was conscious that this ability to hear their voices was already fading. There is an old Irish saying that "If you see a two headed pig on the road don't tell anyone." The ability to percieve things differently than others marks one as different. The Celts saw things differently, there world view was different which is why the Romans had to wipe them out. For example of this look at two coins, one Celtic, the other Roman; both depicting a horse. The Roman coin shows the horse as an object disting from its surroundings while the Celtic coin shows the horse and its surroundings as swirling energy, as process. That the ability to see things this way is natural is shown by the similarity of the Celts to the native AmerIndians. The Iriquois for example have a word for a living entity that means a swirl of sentient energy, this is all quite fascinating, but the point is that we are the products of our conditioning, that there is no true autonomy as most people imagine there to be. We are products, manufactured, and it is only through self realization, through the attainment of direct perception of our actual autonomous selves that we become free. Still, the mind can and must be used to discriminate, and you are right in your perception that there is also a conscious factor involved in our perception. As Neitche put it people don't want challenging questions, they want comforting explanations.

Hari bol

 

The best we can do is to recognize and appreciate that Grace, co-operating in every way we can. Ultimately it becomes a uniquely personal experience, between each of us and our God.

Of course it is a mark of the intelligence of the devotees that it takes about twenty-five to thirty years after first hearing that Krsna consciousness is scientific for anyone of them to ask "how" it is scientific.

I guess that just goes to show that most are acting in accordance with an emotionaal impetus rather than from a philosophical justification.

Bearing this all in mind I guess we should be encouraged if it takes less than twenty years for another intelligent question to be posted on this thread and should be patient.

Ananga

Paul preached the acceptance of slavery and the acceptance of a demoniac rule (that of Rome) as well as the idolatrous doctrine that a man was not "as good as God", but that he was God. For this the Church of the Nazarene, of Peter the Apostle and of James, Jesus's brother cast him out. The "Christianity" that Paul preached though the Romans finally appreciated as their greatest tool of repression. That is the "Christianity" that we have today, "Our Greatest Enemy" in Srila Prabhupadas consideration.

But yes we must be careful of others feelings. That of course never stopped us in the early days when we considered all non "Hare Krsnas" be the Christians or whatever to be demons. Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur refers to the Institutions of Christianity as "those damned churches" and expounds in regaurd to their evil and pernicious effects, to their slaughter of innocents in considerable detail, so we cannot water down or compromise what we teach although we can certainly be honest and remain non-confrontational in as far as our presentation to the innocents.

When I left the movement and went back to colledge I became acquainted with a young Christian minister and a campus group of born again Christians. Through the knowledge that I had acquired through Krsna consciousness and close attention to my presentation I was able to assist them to a point and attained in the regard of several the consideration that I was the most knowledgeable person on matters of the spirit that they had ever met. I never had to lie to them or to misrepresent myself even once save by ommission of the things that I could not tell them due to their conditioning (because they could not bear them." Finally though I could not resist in consideration of how impoverished they were and showed them a picture of Krsna and told them that Krsna was God. That was it. A non-liberal fundamentalist is nor religious, they are superticious and accept no challenge to the blind faith certitude which satisfies their emotional needs. When they are so challenged even students can behave with all the visciousness of a Mississippi lynch mob. Back then though I was fast and kept my exit paths clear. Even so one takes a chance, I know that you devotees did all of the time. Each and every day. You all gave me a good example which through yours and Krsnas mercy I have been able a time or two to follow. When your movement gets its sea legs I might be able to send some of the ones who upon seeing the picture of Krsna and being told that Krsna is God respond more favorably, with increase of hope and happiness, and with "Of course". Many of them are like that you know, just acheing for love of God, of Krsna. It takes a lot but it rewards alot, more tan can ever be expected, more than can ever be even dreamed of to provide transparency, to be pure. I am not pure prabhu.

Hari bol

Hari bol

One should also avoid argueing with idiots on a public forum as folks might not know the difference. However Random Axis's attempt to create belief and to manipulate people's attitudes through the use of bald face lies must be refuted. We are tacitly conditioned to accept accusation as proof, rumor as evidence so that once one is accused of something, even by a malicious and evious liar, those who are exsposed to it are contaminated, that is why the shastras state that when the Guru is blasphemed that after one refutes the blasphemer that one still should kill oneself as ones vehicle is hopelessly contaminated. Luckily I am not a Guru or a devotee so there is no need for such an extreme severence, and also I am not without some bhraminical abitities and so I can defend myself. For the time being and in defense I will only say that Random Axis is either mad or that he is a malicious liar. I do not now nor have I evever blamed Srila Prabhupada or any Vaisnava devotee of the Lord for my "condition", which is great by the way. I am one of the most fortunate human beings that I have ever met and one of the most sucessful due to Srila Prabhupadas and Sri Krsnas mercy. I have praised Srila Prabhupada for this many, many times and never even once blamed him for any small misfortune that I have ever encountered due to my own bad karma. So Axis is a loonie or a liar.

PS There is a problem with polarization that sometimes manifests when one sppeds up ones personal evolution by beginning Krsna consciousness. The false ego thing and its manifestations. This may not be obvious for some time until a catalyst befomes involved. Through my insignificant standing in devotional service I suffer from a severe deficit in the ability to inspire some, and what they develop instead is an envy that they give reign to. This introduces enertia into their lives to such an extent that they sometimes loose all grip upon what is good for them. develop leprosy or some other disease or simply die. I wish no misfortune upon Random Axis for his calumny. I wish him only the best.

Hari bol

PS One thing to avoid though are the by products of this experiement such as the ability to upscale subatomic particals to corporeal manifestation, or to refute the second law of thermodynamics apparently by creating energy out of seemingly nothing. This "trick" is a minor development of sidhas and has some pragmatic usages such as an ability to maninfest fruit trees and lost keys seemingly out of air. I don't believe this, but then again when one states that they believe or disbelieve in something that is merely a revelation (or it should be) that they do not themselves actually know. Krsna consciousness does not depend upon "belief" but upon faith for its sucessful employment. Faith in Guru and Gouranga and in ones Godbrothers and Godsisters through Krsna's grace and Guru's guidance to triumph against all adversity.

A great deal of problem has been occaisioned by our consideration (conditioned), that we must blindly believe. But Srila Prabhupada has said (I have it in an article from an old BTG in which he is speaking to a Yogi) that we must never "believe" in this manner. We have buried our doubts through fear that if we examine to closely that Krsna consciousness might disolve into some human contrivance; the effect of Mayvadi and Sunyavadi upon us through our cultures infection with such concepts over the last some hundred or so years.

Hari bol

Krsna consciousness is purely scientific. It establishes the incontrovertable, pure objectivity through empiric tests. This is only seemingly not so to one who has no knowledge that the senses can be spiritualized. The scientific process consists of a methodology for testing the validity of whatever propositions one hypothosises. This method consists of the application of pure reason to the data recieved through the senses and whatever mechanisms, like microscopes, telescopes etc., that are needed to assist them in both the acquisition and in the analysis of the data that the senses recieve. Through the scienticic process of Krsna consciousness pure reason is actually developed, and the senses become also purified, coverted to a capacity never experienced in the conditioned state and to a capability of discrimination through touch, taste, sight, scent and sound of spiritual tangibility, to the perception of absolute truth or of that which is is known by the soul. This is Raja Vidyam, Raja Guyam, the highest science. It refutes Lockes postulate that God cannot be known and thus destroys completely the basis for Western demoniac society that is simply based upon exploitation and selfish interests by smashing its model to pieces and thus freeing the conditioned soul from fear of being considered unscientifi, or sentimental hor even allowing oneself to hope that there is something more. Krsna consciousness is a "seeing", rather than a "blind" faith, and this is provable.

That is my opinion of how Krsna consciousness is scientific. Needless to say I do not understand it myself very well.

Hri bol

All that is, is metaphor. Therefore we, you and I speak with uncertanty, using words to describe only how something seems to us to be, but yet forgetting that we do not see, do not hear, do not scent, taste or touch save with material contaminated senses.

How much different it must be for them, for those who in theor actuality are beyond our ability to see them as well? When the word for a thing when it is spoken is the thing, when the name of God is God, and when a suggestion, or an order, or a thought is only to us an appearance, but has another existence, a transcendental meaning, substance, and has no cause of Maya for it's uttering what can we deduce through our ability to measure the meaning, the precision of a word. Are the activities, words, actions of a pure devotee always transcendental or are they sometimes, ever anything that we can discern anything other than a relative truth from? In the material world it seems to us that Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur merely suggested that Srila Prabhupada preach in English, but do not Srila Prabhupada and Srila Bhaktisiddhanta have an eternal liberated realtionship in Krsna consciousness, are they not always transcendental, or do they take pause, time out from their liberated positions and fall under the spell of Maya when they become apparent to us?

Hmmm. so it appears that Srila Bhaktisiddhana was on the mental platform, speculating "thinking" that it would be a good idea for Srila Prabhupada to preach in English, and that Srila Prabhupada; in order to honor his guru, or to appear to be authorized, or specifically instructed rather than just suggested to chose to consider Srila Bhaktisiddhanta's suggestion to be an order. Both these persons appear then to be normal men, what don't we see?

>>>About 2 weeks before Bhaktisiddhanta's passing Prabhupada wrote to him and asked if there was any service he could do for the mission. Bhaktisiddhanta replied that "I think that it would be good for you to preach in English".

This is what was said, and this is what Prabhupada took as his life and soul.

Prabhupada's guru nistha was such that the suggestion of his guru, he took to be an order. By dedicating himself fully to this suggestion/order he was undeniably successful in his mission.

This is the glory of Prabhupada.

If he had simply followed an order then he would be a good disciple no doubt, one of many. But by following a suggestion as if it was an order he proved himself to be unique.

I hope that people reading this can understand this simple point.

The Christians were OUR greatest enimies" ..of course many will discount this .

The Christians...

There is no connection between Jesus and Christianity. Jesus was a Jew and did not consider himself to be divine, in fact that consideration would have shocked him and he would have considered the type of religion (supersticio) that Paul created to be idolatry, and also his own worst enemy, so it seems that Srila Prabhupada and Jesus were in accordance with the same opinion in their regards to "Christianity."

What is interesting is that the products of modern day scholarship that have led to such conclusions had not developed to the point that these conclusions were as yet attainable when Srila Prabhupada and Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati formulated their consideration, they just knew it.

Some reading this thread will have some sentimental attachment to Christianity. Indeed "Blind faith and sentimental attachment" was what Srila Prabhupada described Western religion as. That Christianity As It Is is the greatest curse on human kind and human kinds worst enemy may offend some so sentimentally attached. Neitche once commented that most people would rather die by slow torture even than to be forced to have to think for themselves and that most people woukd rather see the universe destroyed then to let go of their personal opinions.

As to "how" Christianity is our worst enemy has not been touched upon, but if there is anyone beyond idly cuirious as to Srila Prabhupadas meaning, or how to combat its baneful influence....

Hari bol

PS to Jijaji

Random Axis just has some personal problems, he likes to attack people without provocation while at the same time still imagining himself to be some kind of example of what a devotee should be like... what a joke.

Had Srila Prabhupada not trusted them then they never could have betrayed his trust. Had he not have taken their word then they could never have broken their word to him, and had not he have accepted their oaths then they would not now be forsworn; oathbreakers or "Warlocks" to use the most hated appelation of my tradition.

But no, I am not a disciple of A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada. A recipiant of his mercy yes, but I am not now, nor have I ever been a nominal member of your tradition.

"The fault Dear Brutus is not in our stars but in ourselves." Shakespeare, and while "yes", at times to my normal vision it might appear that Srila Prabhupada was unwise to trust some particular one or to take him or her at their word, that he should appear to act at times like a normal man does not at all mean that he was. What was his fault anyway, that he was to good for us? Let it stand at that then if fault must be named, that he was to good.

It has been a long, long very long time since he who was closer to me, closer to my sentiments, closer to my heart, went into the ground. No, I was not his disciple, and yet he was the only one I ever felt who truely understood me, the only person who I could trust completely, who I could depend upon entirely, who I could count on completely. No, whatever for would I curse such a great soul with myself, to be his disciple, a stone in his shoe, a milstone round his neck. I escaped becoming his disciple, but his mercy was to quick for me, I didn't escape that.

Srila Prabhupada was Mahajana, according to time and to place and capacity, this is not something that is a conscious choice "Oh, I am Mahajana, let me think how to present it." Tumi Hrisikesa, Hrisika damiya "Make me dance, O Lord make me dance."

So.

I left the movement two years before Srila Prabhupada died, after interviewing Hansaduta whose mindset was apparent to me and upon deciding that if such stuff were the heir apparents made from, leaving the movement was the only option for me at that time.

One thing I would like to comment upon and that was the rather impassioned request from the author of this thread that we should select the option of vigorously defending our philosophy.

It is my opinion that you can quote from shastra until the cows come home, but that real conviction of the truth of the philosophy is only attained to through experince. Prior to that it is all blind faith.

Another thing is that Srila Prabhupadas responsibility or lack of responsibility is a question that cannot be avoided simply because it is uncomfortable. The truth has nothing to fear.

Hari bol

I don't know what your problem is Random Axis, other than you've chosen to be a butt hole with a bad attitude. I am sure that you must have personal reasons for this, but I doubt that you will do anything other than add additional causes for your unhappiness by such offences as you permit yourself.

Instead of just turning green with envy as you habitually do when anyone upstages you with a more intelligent remark, why don't you attempt an intelligent comment or question? Your bluffs might win the admiration of the people that you are trying to fool, but that is hardly likely to serve any higher purpose.

Take it for what it cost you Moron.

The majority of Srila Prabhupadas disciples were conditioned by the teachings of Bacon, Descartes, Newton, were Neo-Platonic and Aristotelian in their thought, were heir to Paulianity, etc., and thus were Westerners, i.e. Romans, the cogs in the wheels of a machine universe, strangers and afraid in a world they never made.

Dear Audarya lila das

Tread softly upon my heart oh master of my spirit, of my soul. Love is our faith, modeling us in it's nature. Faith is very strong in Srila Prabhupada but it enfolds the entire devotional community, not just those who are activly persueing Krsna consciousness, but everyone, irregardless of their affiliation, whether they have ever heard of Sri Krsna Caitanya or whether their love is a stone cold place in them asleep seemingly forever in their own undiscovered hearts.

Our faith must be wise, I agree. It must be so on account of the softness of the spirit faiths but freshly born, easy to be broken.

It is not then our choice to break the faith of anyone in Sri Guru and Gauraga, but only in illusion. You have seen Krsna. You have smeared your eyes with the pulp of Lord Gauransudaras Harinama Sankirtana, with pure love of Krsna. My eyes have seen this.

We shall make faith strong as you suggest, by helping to remove the impediments that stand in the way of the creation of the world as one big facility for pure devotion. This is a seeminly impossible task, but as Srila Prabhupada was fond of reminding us, it is by Krsna's strength that everything in accordance with the desire of Sri Caitanya Mahprabhu is possible through His mercy; simply by this, and our williness to take up the task of spreading Krsna consciousness.

I spoke with a young man, an impassioned preacher the other day and he was as convinced as I am that through Krsna's mercy that we can change the world, and what's more he even had a plan for doing it. Ragunatha Stocker and many of the younger men and women of our mission remind me more of Old Testament Prophets than they remind me of the success so far of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu's mission here in the West, where the signs of it are visible, audable, present in the consciousness of every single soul who has through Srila Prabhupadas grace come into contact with Krsna's name.

The Holy Name of Krsna has been broken in the hearts of many, their love, their hope, and all their trust and innocence broken in two, but yet they have knit their hearts back together, without anasetic, ising only the cold presicion instruments of their analytical reasonings. They are an inspiration to me, but I am their senior and thus it is I who must also serve as an inpiration to them. I understood the heart of Krsna sufficiently that Srila Prabhupada corrected the perspective of the entire world authority of all of Sri Krsna Caitanya Mahaprabhu's disciplic succession in the West. This he did to build my faith at a time when otherwise I would have been lost. I can pray that I can repay the greatness of that gift in someway sufficient to make possible and understanding of all that must be done and how it may be accomplished.

Lord Sri Caitanya is here, Krsna's name is here, and guru is everywhere, and Srila Prabhupada is present in his books. What all then are we lacking? Each other? Let us work to remove that lack. Then perhaps we may really become faith builders.

Hare Krsna

Dear Janus,

I couldn't help but respond to your provocative post. This is a delicate topic indeed and we would all do well to tread carefully. I agree with the concept of a spiritual master being capable of making mistakes such as seeing a snake where there is only a rope. On the other hand, the spiritual master is not to be seen as an ordinary person, just as the deity is not to be seen as a material object such as wood or stone. The spiritual master has two sides, the divine/inspired side and the devotional sadhaka side. He is both human and divine. We who are inspired by a particular teacher will naturally be more focused on his/her divine side. Those who are not so closely associated or inspired will have more of a tendency to see the 'human side'. Balance is necessary, but certainly hard to maintain. Wherever we see Krsna coming and feel inspiration we should bow our heads there. In the highest sense, of course, the spiritual master is incapable of making a mistake because his/her every act is an act of dedication and even though it may appear to be faulty because it is directed with love toward Krsna it is without fault.

Sridhara Maharaja has instructed his sisyas to be faith makers not faith breakers. We should have the same generous spirit towards those who are inspired by others whose views are not wholly in accord with our own.

For certain we can all find fault with anyone and everyone - that is not a difficult task. This is the realm of faults. What is more difficult is to see the divine in all. That is what we should strive for. Criticism and genuine inquiry is one thing. Meanness and derogatory statements meant to hurt are something totally different.

I do agree with you that Lord Chaitanya's movement will not be taken seriously unless we ourselves take it seriously and apply the precepts in our own lives with sincerity. There are many saintly devotees, but there are also many who certainly fall far short and seem to reflect badly on this choice of lifestyle. Still, one good example outshines thousands and thousands of bad ones. Let us all pray that we will become good examples ourselves someday and that until such time we will love and honor and defend the dignity of those who are and find ourselves in their company and service.

Your servant,

Audarya lila dasa

I think that a lot of devottees think they have their butts covered simply because they never find fault with their spiritual masters. That's OK., but when someone else fids fault with a Spiritual Master that just happens to be the same one sas theirs, then all of a sudden whoever's finding fault is demonized.

Sounds like non-liberal fundamentalism to me, like people who really aren't that very clear on the concept, like people who would rather avoid taking any responsibility to even see, let alone voice or allow others to voice their thoughts.

An example of this: Several years ago I had a brief converstaion with one of my sisters old boyfriends, a Srila Prabhupada devotee. I forget how it came around to it but during the course of the conversation the old snake and rope came up. It was his opinion that if his spiritual master happened to mistake a snake for a rope that it wass just to darn bad for him, for it was his opinion that it was better for him to let his Spiritual Master die from a snake bite than it was to inform him that he was wrong. I don't understand people like that. Anyway just a few days later (the converstaion was still troubling me) I was going through some of my books and chanced upon a comment by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta on the same matter, and it was his opinion that the disciple who informed his spiritual master that what he had mistaken for a rope was really a snake was acting out of a higher realization.

Spiritual masters make mistakes, and it is a disciples duty to inform them of them. Had we done this there would perhaps not have been any problems occaisioned by the acceptance of scaliwags as acharyas, even when it was Srila Prabhupada who empowered them. If there was ever a more appropriate example of mistaking a snake for a rope then mistaking Kirtananada, Hansaduta, etc., as persons worthy of trust even, let alone authority over thousands or persons that he obviously cherished and an institution that he gave his life to the creation of, I don't know what it is.

Srila Prabhupada was wrong about a lot of things, but we were more wrong, because we didn't tell him. A goodly number of us still are today avoiding responsibility in this manner, and the persons who are not are lucky that they live in a society that allows them free speech, for if many had their way these outspoken individuals would have their tounges cut out, etc.

As long as our Krsna conscious society remains this way I doubt very much that it will gain acceptance and I doubt also very much that it should.

Hare Krsna

What an amazing thing. "How was your weekend?" someone might say. "Hum, drum, so so, but that was only Saturday." Any other answer they might expect, but "I touched God yesterday."

"How did God feel? they might ask with wry sense of humor if they recovered quickly enough from the surprise and the shock, from the combination of thoughts which race with flickering speed across the mind, and the emotions of fear and slight glimmering of hop, still to shy, to shy and to fearful to demand the selfs God given and inalienable right.

"How did God feel?"

"Comforting."

"How so?"

"He felt like wood, covered with paint and laquer and cloth, and He was solid, and there was a nice resounding thump when I touched him."

What a curious answer, a riddle and a mystery, just another crazy, time to move on.

It was a beautiful day in Santa Monica California, the most beautiful I've seen all year.

The carts were in better off shape then they used to be when they set out open to the weather in the parking lot by the temple, but still there was a lot to be done, and at least there in the temple parking lot the kids would sometimes come by to help, or guests who'd stop by would come and lend a hand.

Saturday though an old man, all alone, stopped by where the carts were. No one was there to invite his service, or to give him instruction, but he wanted so badly to help that after a long time of waiting he just picked up a brush, opened up a can of paint, and labored alone all morning. Later on in the mid afternoon a devotee, the head of the project showed.

Already in great anxiety from the fact that he had not had enough help to get what he wanted to get done completed he went to chase the old man off with harsh words and unkind attitude, probably thinking him just another crazy, or just another bumb as the area accumulates, but the old man, knowing that he was unworthy, accepted this behavior, and stayed, and continued to work in hopes to lighten the devotees burden. Later on the young man looked at what the old man had done, and was satisfied with it, and he thanked him, and smiled, and the old man thanked him, thanked him for engaging him in Krsna's service.

Sunday the old man was down at the beach again. He had been there many times during the year. Even though it was hard to walk, and painful, as frequently as he could he would go down and walk the route that the carts would take from Santa Monica to Venice, and then up to and around the storage lot where they sat the rest of the year, chanting Hare Krsna and hoping to meet devotees.

And this day was a special day, the Rathyatra festival of Lord Jaganatha, Krsna Himself, the Lord of the Universe. The old man had been there for the first chariot festival, and this would probably be the last time in this life that he would ever be able to attend, so he wasn't going to miss it.

He had never considered himself to be a devotee, or to be fit at all to associate with them, so he was shy of them, yet supportive of their efforts. When he walked down from Santa Monica, down to where the carts are, instead of going up directly to the devotees he offered his obeisances from a bluff over looking them, and then walked around the carts several times at a distance.

Finally a young man dressed in saffron, a far ranging sankirtan devotee approached him and offered him a Bhagavad Gita. The old man demured.

"No thank you, I have Srila Prabhupadas Bhagavad Gita." He said.

"But this is Srila Prabhupadas Bhagavad Gita." The youth protested.

The old man did not argue, it was not his place, he did not say how it seemed to him that the editorial changes were like someone had taken a brush, dipped it in black ink and spattered the ink across a clear pane of glass, blocking out a portion of the light from coming through. He only said "No, I meant that I have Srila Prabhupadas Bhagavad Gita, one of the ones that he held in his hands, one of the ones that his classes in his presense were conducted from.I have all of Srila Prabhupadas books, but this one is most special to me, I had it as a gift." The old man finished, and the Bhramachari told him that he was fortunate, even only half believing the statement of the anomaly that stood before him.

"Hare Krsna" the bhramachari said, and then like a fish to long out of water, to long gasping for air, the old man jumped in and breathed once again

"Hare Krsna", and the old man danced and he danced and he danced all the way from Santa Monica to Venice on feet that on other days could not even feel, or when they could feel could feel only pain. But on this day there was no pain, only the joy of Krsna's name chanted in the association of Krsna's devotees.

And that was yesterday.

The old man told his wife about it today, about how he'd touched God yesterday, and she had replied that what was important was that God had touched him.

...I was using SNM's praise of Kirtananada as point and cause as to why SNM could not be trusted. I am including the full text of the post in case you are interested.

“I see my Gurus as uttama also but I don't expect all to see them in that way.”

Puru das

No, you don’t “see” your guru’s as uttama, you believe that they areuttamas, but the fact of the matter is that you do not see, or know that theyare uttamas, unless you yourself are an uttama, your siska guru SNM hasexplained this quite clearly in his book “The Essence of All Advice” (in whichhe also, and again quite clearly, explains his rationalizations for attemptingthe takeover of ISKCON), in the following, from Chapter Three, Sloka 5 & 6,in his conversation with his disciples:

SNM: It may be that I am a madhyama-kanistha, bas, not more than that.THIS I KNOW. Sometimes I’m in the stage of kanistha and sometimes entering intomadhyama, so madhyama-kanistha.

Devotee: But we know that you are…

SNM: But you cannot realize it because you are not liberated

So, no Puru, you do not “see” or know, you simply believe, just like hewants you to believe.

Because you are a Westerner, and an American, your general tendency is toconsider that you deserve the best, the very best, the very best that money canbuy, the uttama. No wonder that about two years ago when I was telling you howbadly that SNM wanted ISKCON that instead of having any intimate understandingof your siska gurus mind, you were protesting vehemently and expressingmayavadi philosophy. Since then he has come out quite blatently with his claimthat he is Srila Prabhupadas heir, and thus, that he is the heir to ISKCON.Even were he an uttama adhikari (which he is not the only one that knows thathe is not), there would be nothing wrong with having such a desire. The problemis though that unless one really is an uttama adhikari there could be somethingvery, very wrong about trying to take over ISKCON, especially with a policythat puts godbrothers at one anothers throats (ISKCON vs Rtvik), sponsorsdisunity (divide and conquer) and the continued attrition of SP’s devotees,what to say of the damage that may be done through the difference inpresentation occasioned by something less than a pure devotee and a mahajanabeing at the helm of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhus mission in the West under theguise of a pure devotee of Krsna?

The problem that SNM isencountering with you and your ilk, is that he cannot drum in the point to youthat he is in all actuality exactly what he claims to be, a kanistha-madhyama.Were he to do so, and were he to do so successfully due to your Westernconsideration that you only deserve an uttama…well, you’d be out of there in awhoosh, at least, that is if you didn’t pause long enough to stone him, for hisimagined betrayal of you by making you believe that he is an uttama. Actuallyhe’s admitted to you his status, has tried to tell you, has told you that he isa kanistha-madhyama, but you will not listen to this, for even though amadhyama, for want of an uttama, is capable of leading ISKCON, you wouldn’thear of it, so:

Devotee: Maharaja, if you’re saying that you’re kanistha, then you cannottell him he’s not liberated.

SNM: What can we do! Accha.

God bless him. No, a kanistha cannot tell, but a madhyma can sometimes tell,and he sometimes can’t, but he can tell who is a kanistha, because from themadhyama stage one can “see” a persons positioning within the modes, and canalso understand their mentalities, without them ever having to say a singlething. I have insufficient knowledge of where this is spoken about in shastra,I am speaking from experience, from the experience of “seeing” that suchpersons as Hansadtuta, Jayatirtha, Rameswara, etc., were situated in the mixedmodes of passion and ignorance while at the same time they were being worshipedas being pure devotees, and while at the same time they were being acclaimed tobe greatly advanced Vaisnavas by the many unfortunates, and by also one who atthe time knew better. SNM claimed Kirtananda as “Mr ISKCON”. Nori J. Mustermentioned this in her book Betrayal of Spirit (which my sister bought fromBhramananda who recommended it), and mentioned it to he father, who saw rightthrough it. Nori did not however, nor did most of the devotees and Kirtananandaquoted this and other glowing praise emanating from the lotus lips of SNM abouthim to his disciples and to anyone else who would listen. Had not SNM givensuch glowing praise of demons, murderers, child molesters, who he knew at leastwere unqualified, then some devotees of these persons might have left a littlesooner, some people might not be dead, and some children might not have beenraped.

SNM gambled. Had SNM, at the time that he first realized it, then claimedthat he was then the only capable person available to act in SP’s stead. If hehad told the kids that they were not qualified to Intiate upon their ownbehalf, that at best some few of them were entering into madhyama (Now he isclaiming that they were never anything more than kanistha), but that none ofthem were capable to act as spiritual heads of ISKCON, instead of claiming theopposite, that they were advanced devotees, then he would not have to claim theopposite now, that they never were, something that he must have known then, butthat he did not reveal, because?

SNM gambled, and SNM lost. So what’s he going for now? Two out of three?

This really isn’t that much addressed to Puru (who I consider to be apower hungry manipulative liar), as it is to the rest of you who havn’t made upyour minds yet, or figured out why SNM is such a topic of conversation, whileother guru’s aren’t. The fact of the matter is that no other guru’s are out toacquire ISKCON to the degree that SNM, for no other gurus are possessed of suchenvy of SP as Srila Narayana is.

Ys, Bhakta George

"If somebody says that "I am a great devotee of Kali, goddess Kali," that is not bhakti; that is business. Because any demigod you worship, there is some purpose behind that. Generally, people take to become a devotee of goddess Kali for eating meat. That is their purpose. In the Vedic culture, those who are meat-eaters, they have been advised that "Don't eat meat purchased from the slaughterhouse or from the market." Actually, this system was never current anywhere, all over the world, that!

to maintain slaughterhouse. This is latest invention. We talk with sometimes with Christian gentlemen, and when we inquire that "Lord Christ says 'Thou shalt not kill'; why you are killing?" they give evidence that "Christ also ate meat sometimes." Sometimes Christ ate meat, that's all right, but did Christ say that "You maintain big, big slaughterhouse and go on eating meat?" There is no common sense even. Christ might have eaten. Sometimes he... If there was no, nothing available for eating, what could you do? That is another question. In great necessity, when there is no other food except taking meat... That time is coming. In this age, Kali-yuga, gradually food grains will be reduced. It is stated in the Srimad-Bhagavatam, Twelfth Canto. No rice, no wheat, no milk, no sugar will be available. One has to eat meat. This will be the condition. And maybe to eat the human flesh also. This sinful life is degrading so much so that they will become more and more sinful. Tan aham dvisatah kruran ksipamy ajasram andhe-yonisu. Those who are demons, those who are sinful, nature's law is to place him in such condition that he will become more and more a demon so that he will never be able to understand what is God. This is nature's law. If you want to forget God, then God will put you in such a condition that you can never understand what is God. That is demonic life. That time is also coming. At the present moment, still a few men are interested, what is God. Arto artharti jijnasu jnani. But time is coming ahead when there will be no sense to understand God. That is the last stage of Kali-yuga, and at that time Kalki avatara, Kalki avatara will come. At that time there is no preaching of God consciousness, simply killing, simply killing."

From a talk by ACBSP

"Those who listen to the Bhagavatam may put questions to the speaker in order to elicit the clear meaning, but this should not be done in a challenging spirit. One must submit questions with a great regard for the speaker and the subject matter. This is also the way recommended in Bhagavad-gita. One must learn the transcendental subject by submissive aural reception from the right sources."

HDGACBSP

Every minute of our lives we are recieving about 100,000 bits of info from sensory imput. By the time they reach our conscious appraisal we are getting about 10 out of that 100,000, partly due to sensory imperfection but mainly due to editing which is going on subconsciously. We hold a static grid up between ourselves and our experience, we aren't at all eager to admit anything in that doesn't supply us with our interests. Fundamentalists are the worst cases for they are always presuming every one else to be subjective, they react passivivly, have very little sense of humor, charity, or consideration of the hurt that they cause to others. They are Authoritarian personalities as existentialist psychologists refer to them or Anal retentive if you prefer Freudian terminology. Some are fetishists, presuming that simply because they carry the tail of a hyeana around with them that they have the hyenas power. The normal converstaional mood of others is frequently suppressed in its development by such persons who attack with insult and condemnation anyone who does not share there consideration that they are right, claiming that they are authorized by Krsna, or Guru to do so.

>>Janus prabhu,There is a lot of reality in what you said. Imagine our present factions ever conceding that another might by right and they wrong.Just longing for days of yore I guess.<<<

You are not alone in longing for the days of yore Maitreya prabhu.

"When it was honorable to accept defeat and grow by the experience and the victor sought not the defeat of an opponent as the goal, but rather the resulting unity."

I must have been dreaming.

“For the Welsh to distinguish between myth and history has always been a difficult exercise.” Emyr Humphries

No, my friend, you were not just dreaming. Perhaps you are not Welsh, but you are perhaps of the same stock of which Srila Prabhupada referred to when he mentioned our war like spirits. You were simply innocent, not understanding the true goal of the aggressor. He must defeat the guardians of devotion, but that is only secondary, and he prefers to enlist them in his own service, but first he must cut them off from their head, the arms, the legs of the social body from its head.

ISKCON has the GBC as it’s head. Were it a wise head, a sagacious head, a head that had been concerned about the welfare of it’s social body all along, there would be no question of anyone being able to cut its head off, it would be to well protected and supported, it would simply be to strong.

Srila Narayana Maharaja commended Kirtananada as Mr. Iskcon, and still, as recent as a year or two ago was still telling his diciples that it was ok for them to attend ISKCON functions. Srila Narayana Maharaja gambled, gambled that he could gain ascendency in ISKCON by favoring it's corrupt leadership, and Srila Narayana Maharaja lost.

Now SNM is in my opinion; attempting a hostile takeover of ISKCON, gambling again (I feel).

He is hoping, I feel, that ISKCON will be to weak to stop him, that he can convert enough of it’s members and one time members to swing over to him so that he can accomplish a bloodless take over or a coup-de- tat. That is my opinion.

>Look next for my idea on how to implement world peace in our lifetime.

Jaya Prabhupada,

YS MC

Jaya Prabhupada

HMS JANUS

Hmm, what's a religious life?

Last Sunday I turned on the radio and the first song playing was My Sweet Lord by George Harrison. After that I went on Harinam, singing Hare Krsna. It's best when it's done in congregation, but with no devotees about. Long, long, long ago Bahudak, a great congregational chanter said that I had the finest voice in the movement of it's type, it hasn't changed much. So I walked past about 10,000 souls in the sapace of two hours singing Hare Krsna. Is that spiritual? Not from me, but Krsna's Name is spiritual and can grant all and the greatest benediction and so I like for people to hear it, and with no devotees about, what else can I do when its either me chanting it or they do not hear Krsna's name.

Do I know that Krsna's name is spiritual? Yes, if experience accounts for anything, I do, for I have seen people in their 80's jump towards the sound of Krsna's name as if they were sprinters dashing off at the sound od the start gun at the race. I have seen peoples eyes roll up in ecstacy at Krsna's name, and seen them almost faint. I have heard a tiger in it's deep seated roar chant Krsna, so many things.

To live a spiritual life means to live in the spirit. Chant Hare Krsna and live. Chant Hare Krsna Hare Krsna Krsna Krsna Hare Hare Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare and watch as your soul comes alive, in knowledge, in eternity, and in ecstacy. Chant Hare Krsna Hare Krsna Krsna Krsna Hare Hare Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare like a little lost kid crying for it's parent and Krsna will come and you will never feel lost or lonely again, and you will never lack for pleasure, and you will never die. That is my opinion.

" If somebody says that "I am a great devotee of Kali, goddess Kali," that is not bhakti; that is business. Because any demigod you worship, there is some purpose behind that. Generally, people take to become a devotee of goddess Kali for eating meat. That is their purpose. In the Vedic culture, those who are meat-eaters, they have been advised that "Don't eat meat purchased from the slaughterhouse or from the market." Actually, this system was never current anywhere, all over the world, that!

to maintain slaughterhouse. This is latest invention. We talk with sometimes with Christian gentlemen, and when we inquire that "Lord Christ says 'Thou shalt not kill'; why you are killing?" they give evidence that "Christ also ate meat sometimes." Sometimes Christ ate meat, that's all right, but did Christ say that "You maintain big, big slaughterhouse and go on eating meat?" There is no common sense even. Christ might have eaten. Sometimes he... If there was no, nothing available for eating, what could you do? That is another question. In great necessity, when there is no other food except taking meat... That time is coming. In this age, Kali-yuga, gradually food grains will be reduced. It is stated in the Srimad-Bhagavatam, Twelfth Canto. No rice, no wheat, no milk, no sugar will be available. One has to eat meat. This will be the condition. And maybe to eat the human flesh also. This sinful life is degrading so much so that they will become more and more sinful. Tan aham dvisatah kruran ksipamy ajasram andhe-yonisu. Those who are demons, those who are sinful, nature's law is to place him in such condition that he will become more and more a demon so that he will never be able to understand what is God. This is nature's law. If you want to forget God, then God will put you in such a condition that you can never understand what is God. That is demonic life. That time is also coming. At the present moment, still a few men are interested, what is God. Arto artharti jijnasu jnani. But time is coming ahead when there will be no sense to understand God. That is the last stage of Kali-yuga, and at that time Kalki avatara, Kalki avatara will come. At that time there is no preaching of God consciousness, simply killing, simply killing. "

From a talk by ACBSP

Its seems there is little interest in the idea anyway.By top level I meant those chosen by their group to represent them.You would get the ones with the best scriptural knowledge and debate ability to present their case.I understand that really the top devotee may be illiterate and scrubbing the temple latrine everyday.

The idea of limiting the formal debate to one or two presenters is that it keeps a certain consistancy in the exchange.I also suggested a paralle thread for the rest of us to discuss it.With questions from us going through Jndas to the guests.

As it is now it is like an open sore that has the prospect of festering on for decades.

But this was also only an example idea.I was picturing many subjects being discussed by many different people from different fields.

And the format wouldn't have to be adversarial always.I was picturing say a Catholic theologian discussing Catholcism with a knowledgeable Chaitanya Bhakta.Now if we were all firing in on him at once it would be very confusing for him.But structured well it may serve as a bridge for common understanding.

Some debates, some dialogues.I probably should have avoided using the SNM controvesry as a first example.

Now I want to see you next post.

Maitreya rishi

People will fight for their beliefs, they will die for them, and they will kill for them, and so you create in them belief, and they will fight for you, die for you and kill for you. No, you probably should have avoided the SNM controversy. As any example, for you such debates as you suggest challenge the beliefs of the people who account him to be a pure devotee.

I do not mean that SNM would ever issue a command for the destruction of anyone challenging his position. He is not like some of the ISKCON guru’s that I have heard and read about. But the “dust of his lotus feet might be offended, and even one particle of that is enough to put paid to your accout, or to mine, or to anyones who challenges what they believe of their Guru in debate.

And what happens if ISKCON or the Rtviks win? Are we talking about another Guyana, another Waco? We could be, so we must be clear.

Whose purpose would it serve to insist upon such a debate? You’ll notice that I said “insist” rather than invite. What leader ,seeing his objective in sight would walk across a mine field to get to it when he can simply go around the field. Or if even existential pressure compels such a short cut, why go himself when he can send in other peoples kids, his devotees. So what if they die in battle, they are fighting for religious principles and are thus assured by Lord Krsna in Bhagavad Gita that the least that they will achieve will be the sun planet. So why, oh why prabhu would you expect for a moment that the “topmost” members of this argument would be willing to enter into such debate, whaat have they to win, and what have they to loose? It is gambling, and it is not a sure bet. Those who are most eager, the Rtviks, are the least powerful, and those who are the most powerful SNM, is the least eager, and in the middle you have ISKCON, poor, poor ISKCON.

There is an old saying that the friend of my enemy is my friend and Srila Narayana Maharaja has in the past favored ISKCON and ISKCON gurus with many high recommendations.

Sure, right now that is a thing of the past but if ISKCON swings over to supporting SNM, well, who might not again be in good favor? Not Kirtananada, oh no, but what about some of the others, what about any of the others. From such as this you expect great resolve?

... the Bible isn't transcendental literature... On the other hand what empirical tests are available at our disposal that allow us to ascertain which, if any of the many proposed holy scriptures are indeed of Holy writ?"

Dear Janus:

When/Where did Srila Prabhupada say/write that the Bible is not transcendental literature?

I would like to draw your attention to the following exchange between Srila Prabhupada and two of his disciples.

Madhudvisa: Is there any way for a Christian to, without the help of a Spiritual Master, to reach the spiritual sky through believing in the words of Jesus Christ and trying to follow his teachings?

Srila Prabhupada: I don't follow.

Tamala Krishna Goswami: Can a Christian in this age, without a Spiritual Master, but by reading the Bible, and following Jesus's words, reach the ...

Srila Prabhupada: When you read the Bible, you follow the Spiritual Master. How can you say without. As soon as you read the Bible, that means you are following the instruction of Lord Jesus Christ. That means that you are following the Spiritual Master. So where is the opportunity of being without Spiritual Master.

Madhudvisa: I was referring to a living Spiritual Master.

Srila Prabhupada: Spiritual Master is not question of ... Spiritual Master is eternal...so your question is 'without Spiritual Master'. Without Spiritual Master you cannot be at any stage of your life. You may accept this Spiritual master or that Spiritual master. That is a different thing. But you have to accept. As you say that "by reading Bible", when you read Bible that means you are following the Spiritual Master represented by some priest or some clergyman in the line of Lord Jesus Christ. (Morning Walk, Seattle, 2/10/68)

Any comments and information will be greatly appreciated.

Yours Very Sincerely

leyh

Dear leyh

“There are many mistakes and illusion in your scriptures. Their compilers, not knowing the essence of knowledge, gave orders that were against reason and argument.”

Sri Caitanya Mahaparbhu to the Yavanana (Kazi) Adi Lila Ch 17 vs 167

Part of Srila Prabhupadas purport from verse 169:

“The sastras of the yavanas, or meat eat-eaters, are not eternal scriptures. They have been fashioned recently, and sometimes they contradict one another. The scriptures of the yavanas are three: the Old Testament, the New Testament and the Koran. Their compilation has a history; they are not eternal like Vedic knowledge. Therefore although they have their arguments and reasonings, they are not very sound and transcendental. As such, modern people advanced in science and philosophy deem these scriptures unacceptable.”

Tamala Krishna Goswami: Can a Christian in this age, without a Spiritual Master, but by reading the Bible, and following Jesus's words, reach the ...

Srila Prabhupada: When you read the Bible, you follow the Spiritual Master. How can you say without. As soon as you read the Bible, that means you are following the instruction of Lord Jesus Christ. That means that you are following the Spiritual Master. So where is the opportunity of being without Spiritual Master.

Madhudvisa: I was referring to a living Spiritual Master.

Srila Prabhupada: Spiritual Master is not question of ... Spiritual Master is eternal...so your question is 'without Spiritual Master'. Without Spiritual Master you cannot be at any stage of your life. You may accept this Spiritual master or that Spiritual master. That is a different thing.

But you have to accept. As you say that "by reading Bible", when you read Bible that means you are following the Spiritual Master represented by some priest or some clergyman in the line of Lord Jesus Christ. (Morning Walk, Seattle, 2/10/68)

Dear Leyh

The example that you cited is not any authorization to consider the text of the Old and New Testaments to be transcendental, in whole; “They are not VERY TRANSCENDENTAL”. In his comment from his purport in Caitanya Caratamrta Srila Prabhupada mentions that these scriptures are historic documents, having a beginning in time. He here though mentions that Spiritual Master (referring to Lord Jesus Christ) is eternal. He is hereby establishing with this comment that you quoted the authorization of the Rtvik method of Krsna consciousness, even when the only copies of the books by Srila Prabhupada that you can get are the ones that have suffered “correction”, or editing.

The scriptures of the Yavanas are not "very transcendental" but they are somewhat transcendental in that through them the eternal guru has an awareness of you.

I still have the big hardback Bhagavad Gita that one of the devotees gave me almost 30 years ago, one of the ones that Srila Prabhupada touched and which was used in one of his classes. Still when I open it today it smells of paradise, of Vaikuntha. But beyond that I know that Srila Prabhupada is alive eternally within its pages, because the magick that was occurring then is still happening today. Back then I had a question that was troubling me as my faith was peculiar. I had, on the one hand, some doubt as to whether the study of Bhagavad Gita As It Is alone would be sufficient to enlighten me, while on the other hand I had great faith that if I put my question to Krsna and Srila Prabhupada that my question would be answered. Even though I didn’t physically ask Srila Prabhupada, just in my heart, not imagining myself to be anyone of any importance to interrupt him in his translating work, not even if I was being torn apart by lions and tigers, let alone by some small doubts.

So I asked me question which was whether I needed to review any other of the books on spirituality in the world, the Bible, the Koran, etc., I asked it in my heart of Srila Prabhupada, of Srila Prabhupada in his literary manifestation. I addressed my question to Bhagavad Gita As It is. I asked “Do I need to read any other of the scriptures of the world Srila Prabhupada?” and then closing my eyes opened this big over a thousand page edition to a random page, set my finger down on a random place and then opened my eyes and read by Srila Prabhupada “You need only read this book.”

Guru is eternal. Guru answers me on what is objectionable about the scriptures of the Yanvanas, for instance, the commandment against making images is a ban against right brain pattern recognition.

Yesterday morning when you asked your question of me I though “Oh drat!” for I had forgotten where I had read that Srila Prabhupada had said that the Bible wasn’t transcendental, or rather from what, for where was somewhere here on the web I recall, but from what specific book I could not recall. So then as I was sitting there I just asked "where", relaxed my mind and “Sri Caitanya Caritamrta” formed in words in my brain.

I despaired mightily then Leyh prabhu, for the only copy of Caitanya Caratamrta that I have on hand is the single volume version of 2204 pages which does not list anywhere in it where you can locate a reference to topics such as the Bible, etc.,. So I sat down Leyh, bound and determined to find and answer to your question rather than let you down, but before I started at page one I asked once again.

“I am nothing, and no one, just a big nonsense Srila Prabhupada, but will you still help me so that this devotee will not be let down?” And then I opened Caitanya Caratamrta to a random page and read:

“There are many mistakes and illusion in your scriptures. Their compilers, not knowing the essence of knowledge, gave orders that were against reason and argument.”

Sri Caitanya Mahaparbhu to the Yavanana (Kazi) Adi Lila Ch 17 vs 167

Thomas Jefferson used to carry around with him a pen knife, which he would use to cut out whatever passages in the Bible that offended his sensibilities. As Srila Prabhupada, along with many notable scholars agree that the Bible isn't transcendental literature I doubt that any objections can be raised to such practice, by those who accept Srila Prabhupadas and the notable scholars considerations that is. On the other hand what empirical tests are available at our disposal that allow us to ascertain which, if any of the many proposed holy scriptures are indeed of Holy writ?

In several other traditions that I know of that claim of their scriptures that they are arsa, or the words of the devas, it is forbidden to correct even a punctuation, to make any alteration. Additional comments and commentaries may be added but the originals are not at all allowed to be tampered with, these include the various Wiccan Books of Shadows as well as the Thelemic Class A documents.