gHari
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Posts posted by gHari
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Thank you, Valaya. I knew there had to be one with his head screwed on straight.
Off-topic, but are Muslims actually Shivaites? In case someone missed this as I did:
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Yes, there is one. My son gave me one for Christmas a few years back. It's about 4"x3"x1", but still as deep as ever. He saw an ISKCON devotee on the street in downtown Toronto and approached him. It apparently had belonged to the devotee himself (or so the story goes).
If you can find one, be sure to treat it with great honour. Somehow I'd be a little stressed putting it in my pocket, but perhaps if you had a little cloth pouch and only used a shirt pocket, it could be safe.
16Rounds.com may cater to special requests.
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tarasiga,
Please don't waste my time anymore. On one hand I have this little dog chewing at my heels and on the other I have Guru Nanak. You were quite boring by comparison, and all I learned in that half-hour wasted was to never again talk to barking dogs.
Like my life has anything to do with you. Three times you hassled me. Now maybe English is not your first language and you can't see the real meaning in my original post, but even if that is the case, posts two, three, and four were just a nuisance and an ego thing. My life has nothing to do with you. Keep your word jugglery away from me - my life's too precious. Find another way to maintain your ego.
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Wake up call for scholars! Likely only one person will read these anyway. But you are worth a million insincere seekers.
Page 1277
In the Lord's Name, it is forever rejuvenated; it shall never wither and dry up again. Without the True Guru, no one finds the Lord; anyone can try and see. By the Lord's Grace, the True Guru is found, and then the Lord is met with intuitive ease. The self-willed manmukh is deluded by doubt; without good destiny, the Lord's wealth is not obtained. The three dispositions are completely distracting; people read and study and contemplate them. Those people are never liberated; they do not find the Door of Salvation. Without the True Guru, they are never released from bondage; they do not embrace love for the Naam, the Name of the Lord. The Pandits, the religious scholars, and the silent sages, reading and studying the Vedas, have grown weary. They do not even think of the Lord's Name; they do not dwell in the home of their own inner being. The Messenger of Death hovers over their heads; they are ruined by the deceit within themselves. Everyone longs for the Name of the Lord; without good destiny, it is not obtained. When the Lord bestows His Glance of Grace, the mortal meets the True Guru, and the Lord's Name comes to dwell within the mind. O Nanak, through the Name, honor wells up, and the mortal remains immersed in the Lord.
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Talasiga,
So y'all will insist that I too must live my life on the mental platform, using induction and logic to effect my life? Where's that written - especially in a spiritual forum where 'surrender' is bandied about like a cliche.
I do not consider it a prejudice to avoid those who deny God's person. It was recommended to me by the man I've admired most in this life, to avoid such impersonalists for they are more dangerous than a tiger. I also avoid associating with those who malign Sri Krsna in any way. Quite frankly, if that upsets you, I don't care - your approval is meaningless to me when compared to the greatness of Krsna and this man.
I am now trying to determine whether that Sikh I met was just stupid or not knowledgeable about his own religion, or whether Guru Nanak's teachings have been distorted into an impersonalistic church. You can help, by answering this question or just continue all this superior attitude, which incidently just documents your arrogance and inferiority.
Believe me, I am hoping most desperately that I can write that rude character off as an uneducated misfit out of touch with real Sikhism. Some of the websites however are not too promising, talking of merging into a formless God. Yet Nanak is quite lovely so there is still hope.
If you are a Sikh you can help me here. If you are an impersonalist, then you will hate me no matter what I do.
gHari
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Gary Stevason
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Just received your second warning, Talasiga.
All I can say is that I'm not quite as dull as you surmise. I tend to get a little creative when I write, but that was actually a little tenderness between myself and Sri Krsna - a little kidding if you will.
Please tolerate me. If you hadn't noticed, I've spent the last several hours becoming aware of their scriptures. If you underestimate me too much, you are sure to be disappointing at some point. Or so one would hope.
There I go again. Too esoteric; the quick readers will misunderstand - but the moving finger having writ, so I offer it as one of your poetic puzzle allusions of a truth unseen.
Now back to Guru Nanak.
gHari
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Gary Stevason
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TRUE GURU equals CAITYA GURU ?
Rings loudly for me.
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I do not believe that Guru Nanak is either an impersonalist or Mayavadi. He seems to preach mukhti at times yet he remains in love. Here the unseen Lord becomes seen which strongly suggests form:
gHariPage 1093
Wherever You are, there is no ego. O spiritual teachers, understand this: the Unspoken Speech is in the mind. Without the Guru, the essence of reality is not found; the Invisible Lord dwells everywhere. One meets the True Guru, and then the Lord is known, when the Word of the Shabad comes to dwell in the mind. When self-conceit departs, doubt and fear also depart, and the pain of birth and death is removed. Following the Guru's Teachings, the Unseen Lord is seen; the intellect is exalted, and one is carried across. O Nanak, chant the chant of 'Sohang hansaa' - 'He is me, and I am Him.' The three worlds are absorbed in Him. || 1 || THIRD MEHL: Some assay their mind-jewel, and contemplate the Word of the Guru's Shabad. Only a few of those humble beings are known in this world, in this Dark Age of Kali Yuga. One's self remains blended with the Lord's Self, when egotism and duality are conquered. O Nanak, those who are imbued with the Naam cross over the difficult, treacherous and terrifying world-ocean. || 2 || PAUREE: The self-willed manmukhs do not search within their own selves; they are deluded by their egotistical pride. Wandering in the four directions, they grow weary, tormented by burning desire within. They do not study the Simritees and the Shaastras; the manmukhs waste away and are lost. Without the Guru, no one finds the Naam, the Name of the True Lord. One who contemplates the essence of spiritual wisdom and meditates on the Lord is saved. || 19 || SHALOK, SECOND MEHL: He Himself knows, He Himself acts, and He Himself does it right. So stand before Him, O Nanak, and offer your prayers. || 1 || FIRST MEHL: He who created the creation, watches over it; He Himself knows. Unto whom should I speak, O Nanak, when everything is contained within the home of the heart? || 2 || PAUREE: Forget everything, and be friends with the One Lord alone. Your mind and body shall be enraptured, and the Lord shall burn away your sins. Your comings and goings in reincarnation shall cease; you shall not be reborn and die again. The True Name shall be your Support, and you shall not burn in sorrow and attachment. O Nanak, gather in the treasure of the Naam, the Name of the Lord, within your mind. || 20 || SHALOK, FIFTH MEHL: You do not forget Maya from your mind; you beg for it with each and every breath. You do not even think of that God; O Nanak, it is not in your karma. || 1 || FIFTH MEHL: Maya and its wealth shall not go along with you, so why do you cling to it - are you blind? Meditate on the Guru's Feet, and the bonds of Maya shall be cut away from you. || 2 || PAUREE: By the Pleasure of His Will, the Lord inspires us to obey the Hukam of His Command; by the Pleasure of His Will, we find peace. By the Pleasure of His Will, He leads us to meet the True Guru; by the Pleasure of His Will, we meditate on the Truth. There is no other gift as great as the Pleasure of His Will; this Truth is spoken and proclaimed. Those who have such pre-ordained destiny, practice and live the Truth. Nanak has entered His Sanctuary; He created the world.
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Gary Stevason
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Sound familiar?
Page 1054
|| 10 || The Perfect True Guru has imparted this understanding. I have enshrined the Naam, the One Name, within my mind. I chant the Naam, and meditate on the Naam. Singing His Glorious Praises, I enter the Mansion of the Lord's Presence. || 11 || The servant serves, and obeys the Command of the Infinite Lord. The self-willed manmukhs do not know the value of the Lord's Command. By the Hukam of the Lord's Command, one is exalted; by His Hukam, one is glorified; by His Hukam, one becomes carefree. || 12 || By Guru's Grace, one recognizes the Lord's Hukam. The wandering mind is restrained, and brought back to the home of the One Lord. Imbued with the Naam, one remains forever detached; the jewel of the Naam rests within the mind. || 13 || The One Lord is pervasive throughout all the world. By Guru's Grace, He is revealed. Those humble beings who praise the Shabad are immaculate; they dwell within the home of their own inner self. || 14 || The devotees abide forever in Your Sanctuary, Lord. You are inaccessible and unfathomable; Your value cannot be estimated. As it pleases Your Will, You keep us; the Gurmukh meditates on the Naam. || 15 || Forever and ever, I sing Your Glorious Praises. O my True Lord and Master, may I become pleasing to Your Mind. Nanak offers this true prayer: O Lord, please bless me with Truth, that I may merge in the Truth. || 16 || 1 || 10 || MARU, THIRD MEHL: Those who serve the True Guru are very fortunate. Night and day, they remain lovingly attuned to the True Name. The Lord, the Giver of peace, abides forever deep within their hearts; they delight in the True Word of the Shabad. || 1 || When the Lord grants His Grace, one meets with the Guru. The Name of the Lord is enshrined within the mind. The Lord, the Giver of peace, abides forever within the mind; the mind is delighted with the Word of the Shabad. || 2 || When the Lord bestows His Mercy, He unites in His Union. Egotism and attachment are burned away by the Shabad. In the Love of the One Lord, one remains liberated forever; he is not in conflict with anyone. || 3 || Without serving the True Guru, there is only pitch-black darkness. Without the Shabad, no one crosses over to the other side. Those who are imbued with the Shabad, are very detached. They earn the profit of the True Word of the Shabad. || 4 || Pain and pleasure are pre-ordained by the Creator. He Himself has caused the love of duality to be pervasive. One who becomes Gurmukh remains detached; how can anyone trust the self-willed manmukh? || 5 || Those who do not recognize the Shabad are manmukhs. They do not know the essence of the Fear of the Guru. Without this Fear, how can anyone find the Fearless True Lord? The Messenger of Death will pull the breath out. || 6 || The invulnerable Messenger of Death cannot be killed. The Word of the Guru's Shabad prevents him from approaching. When he hears the Word of the Shabad, he runs far away. He is afraid that the self-sufficient Dear Lord will kill him. || 7 || The Dear Lord is the Ruler above all. What can this wretched Messenger of Death do? As slave to the Hukam of the Lord's Command, the mortal acts according to His Hukam. According to His Hukam, he is deprived of his breath. || 8 || The Gurmukh realizes that the True Lord created the creation. The Gurmukh knows that the Lord has expanded the entire expanse. One who becomes Gurmukh, understands the True Lord. Through the True Word of the Shabad, he finds peace. || 9 || The Gurmukh knows that the Lord is the Architect of karma. Throughout the four ages, he recognizes the Word of the Guru's Shabad. The Gurmukh does not die, the Gurmukh is not reborn; the Gurmukh is immersed in the Shabad. || 10 || The Gurmukh praises the Naam, and the Shabad. God is inaccessible, unfathomable and self-sufficient. The Naam, the Name of the One Lord, saves and redeems throughout the four ages. Through the Shabad, one trades in the Naam. || 11 || The Gurmukh obtains eternal peace and tranqulity. The Gurmukh enshrines the Naam within his heart. One who becomes Gurmukh recognizes the Naam, and the noose of evil-mindedness is snapped. || 12 || The Gurmukh wells up from, and then merges back into Truth. He does not die and take birth, and is not consigned to reincarnation. The Gurmukh remains forever imbued with the color of the Lord's Love. Night and day, he earns a profit. || 13 || The Gurmukhs, the devotees, are exalted and beautified in the Court of the Lord. They are embellished with the True Word of His Bani, and the Word of the Shabad. Night and day, they sing the Glorious Praises of the Lord, day and night, and they intuitively go to their own home. || 14 || The Perfect True Guru proclaims the Shabad; night and day, remain lovingly attuned to devotional worship. One who sings forever the Glorious Praises of the Lord, becomes immaculate; Immaculate are the Glorious Praises of the Sovereign Lord . || 15 || The True Lord is the Giver of virtue. How rare are those who, as Gurmukh, understand this. Servant Nanak praises the Naam; he blossoms forth in the ecstasy of the Name of the self-sufficient Lord.
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Page 1016
Forgetting the Name, he dwells upon the Vedas; he writes, but he is confused by his poisonous corruption. || 5 || He is like the crop planted in the salty soil, or the tree growing on the river bank, or the white clothes sprinkled with dirt. This world is the house of desire; whoever enters it, is burnt down by egotistical pride. || 6 || Where are all the kings and their subjects? Those who are immersed in duality are destroyed. Says Nanak, these are the steps of the ladder, of the Teachings of the True Guru; only the Unseen Lord shall remain.
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MARU, FIFTH MEHL, SIXTH HOUSE, DU-PADAS:
ONE UNIVERSAL CREATOR GOD. BY THE GRACE OF THE TRUE GURU:
Abandon all your clever tricks; meet with the Holy, and renounce your egotistical pride. Everything else is false; with your tongue, chant the Name of the Lord, Raam, Raam. || 1 || O my mind, with your ears, listen to the Name of the Lord. The sins of your many past lifetimes shall be washed away; then, what can the wretched Messenger of Death do to you?
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Well if this section from the Sikh book, Raga Mali Gaura isn't Gaurasundara, it is one incredible acintya coincidence; and if they ain't trying to describe Lord Syamasundara I'll eat me hat. And Gajendra!
Formless must mean, like in the Vedas, without material form. And just like with the Vedas, the envious translate that into an impersonal Deity:
gHariMAALEE GAURAA, THE WORD OF DEVOTEE NAAM DAYV JEE:
ONE UNIVERSAL CREATOR GOD. BY THE GRACE OF THE TRUE GURU:
Blessed, blessed is that flute which the Lord plays. The sweet, sweet unstruck sound current sings forth. Blessed, blessed is the wool of the sheep; blessed, blessed is the blanket worn by Krishna. Blessed, blessed are you, O mother Dayvakee; into your home the Lord was born. Blessed, blessed are the forests of Brindaaban; the Supreme Lord plays there. He plays the flute, and herds the cows; Naam Dayv's Lord and Master plays happily. O my Father, Lord of wealth, blessed are You, long-haired, dark-skinned, my darling.
You hold the steel chakra in Your hand; You came down from Heaven, and saved the life of the elephant. In the court of Duhsaasan, You saved the honor of Dropati, when her clothes were being removed. You saved Ahliyaa, the wife of Gautam; how many have You purified and carried across? Such a lowly outcaste as Naam Dayv has come seeking Your Sanctuary. Within all hearts, the Lord speaks, the Lord speaks. Who else speaks, other than the Lord?
Out of the same clay, the elephant, the ant, and the many sorts of species are formed. In stationary life forms, moving beings, worms, moths and within each and every heart, the Lord is contained. Remember the One, Infinite Lord; abandon all other hopes. Naam Dayv prays, I have become dispassionate and detached; who is the Lord and Master, and who is the slave?
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Gary Stevason
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Here is a comprehensive page about that Sikh book, The Living Guru. As well as revealing the scripture's authors (both Sikh Gurus and Hindu/Moslem/Sikh saints), the page also offers an on-line English translation.
It is apparent that modern-day practice may not reflect the ideas that seem to be conveyed by the Guru's writings.
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Gary Stevason
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God Reveals Himself to Guru Nanak
Face-to-face with a faceless God? Caitanya Mahaprabhu? I fear the truth may be lost.At Sultanpur, Guru Nanak Dev used to go daily to Bein stream for a bath and to spend sometime in meditation. On one such occasion, he plunged into the stream. He remained missing for three days. According to Janamsakhis, "The Guru had a face to face talk with the Almighty, who assigned him with the mission of preaching the glory of His Name. Then God blessed him and commanded, "O Nanak ! When you look at anyone gracefully, it is not yours, but my graceful look. In other words, on whom you have benevolence, on him will be me benevolence. My name in the Supreme Brahma, the Supreme Lord; and thy name is the Guru, Permeshwar, that is the supreme Guru (prefect preceptor). "Guru Nanak Dev was taken in vision into the presence of God, where celestial music was heard. God pleasingly commanded Nanak to repeat the "Namm" and cause others to repeat the "Namm". So Guru Nanak Dev, the World-Teacher said, "There is only one God, True is His Name. He is the Creator, Fearless, Devoid of hate, Immortal, Not-Immortal, Self-Existent, by the Grace of the Enlightener. You can realize him. He is True one in the beginning; True in the primeval age; True He is, O Nanak; True He shall always be. " Guru Nanak Dev further said, "There is no Hindu, no Musalman", implying that the dividing lines between the creeds are unreal and false. So men must come under a sole universal creed, wherein lies no scope for the sectarian discord. People began to call him "Nanak Nirankari" - God's Nanak.
gHari
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Gary Stevason
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SO SAD, we see here that the followers have interpreted Nanak's words in their nightly prayer to take "Lotus Feet" to mean "Divine Hymns":I observe neither Hindu fasting nor the ritual of the Muslim Ramadan month; Him I serve who at the last shall save. The Lord of universe of the Hindus, Gosain and Allah to me are one; From Hindus and Muslims have I broken free. I perform neither Kaaba pilgrimage nor at bathing spots worship; One sole Lord I serve, and no other. I perform neither the Hindu worship nor the Muslim prayer; To the Sole Formless Lord in my heart I bow. We neither are Hindus nor Muslims; Our body and life belong to the One Supreme Being who alone is both Ram and Allah for us." (Guru Arjan Dev, Guru Granth Sahib, Raga Bhairon pg. 1136)
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The soul goes through cycles of births and deaths before it reaches the human form. The goal of our life is to lead an exemplary existence so that one may merge with God. Sikhs should remember God at all times and practice living a virtuous and truthful life while maintaining a balance between their spiritual obligations and temporal obligations.
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The Formless Supreme Being abides in the Realm of Eternity. Over His creation He casts His glance of grace. In that Realm are contained all the continents and the universes, Exceeding in number all count. Of creation worlds upon worlds abide therein; All obedient to His will; He watches over them in bliss, And has each constantly in mind." (Guru Nanak, Japji)
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I shall merge in the Lord like the water in the sea and the wave in the stream. The soul will merge in God and like air I shall look upon all alike. Then why shall I come again? The coming and going is under the Will of the Lord and Realising This Will, I shall merge in the Lord" (Bhagat Kabir, Maru)
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The goal of human life is to break the cycle of birth's and deaths and merge with God. This can be accomplished by following the teachings of the Guru, meditation on the Holy Name and performance of acts of service and charity.
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Reincarnation - Like Hinduism Sikhism believes in the transmigration of the soul. There are countless cycles of births and deaths. One only breaks this cycle when they achieve mukhti (merger with God)
Maya - The world is just an illusion and some get enchanted with this illusion and forget God
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I do not accept Ganesha as important. I do not meditate on Krishna, neither on Vishnu. I do not hear them and do not recognize them. My love is with the Lotus feet of God. He is my protector, the Supreme Lord. I am dust of his Lotus feet." (Guru Gobind Singh, Krishna Avatar)
I must say that I cannot conceive of the Lotus Feet of a formless God, but I find Guru Nanak himself and his story of meeting God charming:The sky is the salver; the sun and the moon the lamps; the stars, with their orbs, are the studed pearls.
The fragrance of sandalwood is the incense, the wind the fan and all vegetation are flowers.
Thus Your Wonderful Worship is performed my God! O, the Destroyer of Fears, this is Your true worship with true lamps.
The Unstruck Melody rings and the Divine Music of the Shabad (Word) is the tender flute.
Your eyes are thousands, yet You have no eye; Your forms are thousands, yet You have no form.
Your pure feet are thousands, yet You have no feet; You are without nose, yet You have a thousand noses; Your plays have, in this way, bewitched me.
The same Light pervades all.
This Light causes the light to shine within all.
Through the Gurus advice the divine Light becomes visible.
That, which pleases Him, constitutes His real worship.
My soul bewitched by the Lotus Feet (Divine Hymns) of God, as sweet as honey, for which I am thirsty day and night.
Nanak says: Give the water of Your Mercy to this pied cuckoo, so that I may merge in Your Name.
“Me, the bard out of work, the Lord has applied to His service. In the very beginning He gave me the order to sing His praises night and day. The Master summoned the minstrel to His True Court. He clothed me with the robe of His true honour and eulogy. Since then the True Name had become my ambrosial food. They, who under the Guru’s instruction, eat this food to their satisfaction, obtain peace. By singing the Guru’s hymns, I, the minstrel spread the Lord’s glory. Nanak, by praising the True Name I have obtained the perfect Lord.” (Guru Nanak, Pauri, pg. 150)
gHari
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Gary Stevason
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talasiga,
What, no pedantic poetry from the frog in the well?
I am not worthy.
I am not worthy.
I am not worthy.
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Gary Stevason
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Thakur Bhaktivinode has predicted the consummation of religious unity
of the world by the appearance of the only universal church which
bears the eternal designation of the Brahma Sampradaya. He has given
mankind the blessed assurance that all Theistic churches will shortly
merge in the one eternal spiritual community by the grace of the
Supreme Lord Sri Krsna Caitanya. The spiritual community is not
circumscribed by the conditions of time and space, race and
nationality. Mankind had been looking forward to this far-off divine
event through the long ages. Thakur Bhaktivinode has made the
conception available in its practicable spiritual form to the open
minded empiricist who is prepared to undergo the process of
enlightenment. The key stone of the Arch has been laid which will
afford the needed shelter to all awakened animation under its ample
encircling arms. Those who would thoughtlessly allow their hollow
pride of race, pseudo-knowledge or pseudo-virtue to stand in the way
of this long hoped for consummation, would have to thank only
themselves for not being incorporated in the spiritual society of all
pure souls.
These plain words need not be misrepresented, by arrogant persons who
are full of the vanity of empiric ignorance, as the pronouncements of
aggressive sectarianism. The aggressive pronouncement of the concrete
Truth is the crying necessity of the moment for silencing the
aggressive propaganda of specific untruths that is being carried on
all over the world by the preachers of empiric contrivances for the
amelioration of the hard lot of conditioned souls. The empiric
propaganda clothes itself in the language of negative abstraction for
deluding those who are engrossed in the selfish pursuit of worldly
enjoyment.
But there is a positive and concrete function of the pure soul which
should not be perversely confounded with any utilitarian form of
worldly activity. Mankind stands in need of that positive spiritual
function of which the hypocritical impersonalists are in absolute
ignorance. The positive function of the soul harmonises the claims of
extreme selfishness with those of extreme self-abnegation in the
society of pure souls even in this mundane world. In its concrete
realisable form the function is perfectly inaccessible to the empiric
understanding. Its imperfect and misleading conception alone is
available by the study of the Scriptures to the conditioned soul that
is not helped by the causeless grace of the pure devotees of Godhead.
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Gary Stevason
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I was chanting on my beads on the way to the airport in Toronto in an airport limo. The driver was Sikh.
I mentioned that this practice had come from Caitanya Mahaprabhu who was a contemporary of Guru Nanaak. I mentioned the story of how the two had danced and sang hymns together.
He became quite angry and belligerent: "Sikhs do not sing and dance!"
I noted how they worship Krsna. He said no they don't, that God has no form or name. I mentioned that his Guru referred to God by Krsna's names like Rama and Govinda. He was still adamant that their God was not Krsna; that the use of the names was only to appease the neighborhood Hindus.
I lost a lot of respect for them that day, and they became just more psychotics in my mind. Now maybe Mayavadis can be found in all religions, but I am not likely to approach another Sikh unless Krsna really drags me by the ears.
gHari
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Darwin,
Yes, I have also seen the writings of the Essenes (questioning Paul's worth) and those of Thomas of the Gnostics, both of which are much much closer to the tenets we revere in Vaishnavism including reincarnation and vegetarianism.
I hear the truth where I see it. I am certainly not going to abandon the entire scripture, especially since many whom I will help will use the New Testament, as it is, as their belief system.
I am not about to spend more than a glance at this topic though, for the truth of the Bible is that it is not about who Jesus was but rather it is about who Jesus is. It is easy to perceive his antiseptic power in our lives, curing that reprobate mind (maya) ROMANS 1 was talking about that comes when we do not remember God. As Krsna said when He came in His original form, "Remember Me. Do not forget Me".
It is about seeking the Kingdom of God first. It is about surrender. It is the Bhagavad-gita For Idiots. Like a swan, we can separate the milk nectar from the muddy water; not with the chattering mind but with Supersoul, the Holy Ghost. At some point we must abandon words and get on with the real journey, into the heart, where the real disease if festering. Lord Caitanya gave us the Mahamantra exactly for this purpose.
gHari
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Gary Stevason
[This message has been edited by gHari (edited 10-30-2001).]
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At the United Communities of Spirit they have presented a number world religious texts which convey a similar message. I did not see a Vedic quote here though, although the site attempts to unify even the Vedas with all religious thought: Turn the other cheek. It did however reference Matthew's accounting of that same teaching:
Jesus recommends that his disciples sell their clothes and by a sword for tribulations about to occur here, in reference to Luke 22:37:You have heard that it was said, "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth." But I say to you, Do not resist one who is evil. But if any one strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also; and if any one would sue you and take your coat, let him have your cloak as well; and if any one forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Matthew 5.38-41
I found these and many more articles with a search on "turn the other cheek".But now," he said, "take your money and a traveler's bag. And if you don't have a sword, sell your clothes and buy one! 37For the time has come for this prophecy about me to be fulfilled: `He was counted among those who were rebels.'[2] Yes, everything written about me by the prophets will come true."
38"Lord," they replied, "we have two swords among us."
"That's enough," he said.
gHari
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Gary Stevason
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How anyone can call that ROMANS 1 passage "dull" is beyond me. It's reminiscent of the "Fall/No Fall" debate. I certainly didn't realize that there was such profound understanding in the New Testament. Most of it was hidden in metaphor, but this was straight up tattva. And it was very powerful preaching - for those with ears and the need to hear. Seems it would even satisfy those with the need for adrenalin too; scary stuff for those who ignore Krsna.
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Even for those who have ears to hear, that King James old English is a little difficult to comprehend. Here are newer versions:
King James (Old English as in above post)
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
New King James
26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature.
27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.
New International Version
26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones.
27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
New American Standard Bible
26 For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural,
27 and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.
Revised Standard Version
26 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. Their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural,
27 and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in their own persons the due penalty for their error.
Darby Transalation
26 For this reason God gave them up to vile lusts; for both their females changed the natural use into that contrary to nature;
27 and in like manner the males also, leaving the natural use of the female, were inflamed in their lust towards one another; males with males working shame, and receiving in themselves the recompense of their error which was fit.
New Living Translation
I hope that leaves the meaning clear.26 That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other.
27 And the men, instead of having normal sexual relationships with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men and, as a result, suffered within themselves the penalty they so richly deserved.
gHari
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Gary Stevason
Message from Krsna
in Spiritual Discussions
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