gHari

From HINDUSTAN TIMES

A Brief History: What Is The Disputed Area?

 

This Is The Site Where The Babri Masjid Once Stood. This Is Part Of The 67 Acres Of Land That The Central Government Acquired Following The Demolition Of The Masjid. A Title Suit Over Ownership Of This Land Is Pending Before The Allahabad High Court And As Of Now, The Vhp Has No Plans To Touch This Land. The Sanctum Sanctorum Of The Proposed Ram Mandir, However, Falls In This Disputed Area.

WHAT IS THE UNDISPUTED AREA?

 

Roughly 43 acres of the 67 acres of land that the Centre acquired belongs to the Ram Janmabhoomi Trust. This is the undisputed land, a fact acknowledged even by the Supreme Court in its ruling in Oct 1994. It is here that the VHP wants to start moving pillars for the proposed mandir from March 15. It also wants the Centre to hand back this land to the Trust.

 

CAN THE GOVERNMENT HAND OVER THE ACQUIRED LAND TO V.H.P.?

 

The VHP says yes but the Babri Masjid Action Committee says until the Allahabad high court decides on the title suit of the disputed site, no part of the acquired land can be handed to any party. The Prime Minister, on his part, has sought legal opinion on the matter.

 

WHY DOES V.H.P. WANT TO START OFFERING OF PRAYERS?

 

Starting worship would suggest that temple construction would begin soon. Since it has committed itself to the March 15 deadline, the VHP will lose face if worship doesn’t begin.

 

1528: The Babri Masjid is built. Hindus claim the mosque has come up on a land where a Ram temple once stood.

 

Dec 22-23, 1949: An idol of Ram installed inside the mosque at night. The Government locks the gates of the mosque and proclaims the premises as a disputed area.

 

Dec 18, 1961: Sunni Central Wakf Board files suit seeking removal of the Ram idols from the mosque.

 

Feb 1, 1986: Faizabad district judge orders opening of the locks for worship of the Ram idols by Hindus.

 

May 12, 1986: Sunni Central Wakf Board challenges the district judge’s order.

 

Dec 11, 1987: The UP Government applies to the Allahabad High Court that hearing on the two petitions be deferred.

 

Dec 6, 1992: Babri masjid demolished.

 

Jan 7, 1993: The Centre acquires 67 acres of land around the demolished mosque.

 

How 'bout uniting with fashion: same clothes, same necklaces, same haircuts?

I reread what we have written and realized that the next extension would be, in a word, varnasrama. Now I am starting to see just how brilliant Sri Krsna is. His divine plan is so logical. I think we would do well to steal His ideas as much as possible.<font color="#f7f7f7">

[This message has been edited by gHari (edited 03-04-2002).]

I think we are about to discover just how brilliant Srila Prabhupada was, as we try to create our Vaishnava of Latter Day Saints Church.

And what the hell; I am a zealot who has seen visions. Ain't it practically expected of such a madman?

Of course, as a minimum a religion must adhere to the laws already established by Krsna in the form of karma. Therefore it must promote sattvik life. It must lead to love of God.

Breaking the rules: karma will take care of administering the punishments here.

I guess I'm not saying much, except perhaps realizing at last that a religion is only a socialization of the fundamental sanatana dharma implemented by Krsna which cannot be altered. Or, I hate to say it, but perhaps it is a watering down or colouring of Krsna's established sanatana dharma. That is a very sobering thought.

I would change this: instead of people having a life and then coming to the temple, they should have a temple and then add a life. Community, family and career would not be their center, but rather their temple activity would be their main identification. It would not make for a rich in bricks church, but a very strong in the heart church.

GBC

(Gary Builds a Church)

From India Times:

TUESDAY, FEBRUARY 19, 2002

HOPAL: Asserting that courts had no right to decide the birthplace of Lord Ram, VHP International General Secretary Praveen Togadia said Tuesday that "come what may", the construction of the temple at Ayodhya will begin from March 15.

 

Addressing a press conference here, Togadia said it was a matter of faith for Hindus that Lord Ram was born at Ayodhya just as it was a matter of faith for the Christians that Jesus Christ was born in Bethlehem.

 

He said, "Just as no court can give ruling on whether Christ was born in Bethlehem or not, no court in the country can decide whether Lord Ram was born in Ayodhya or not.

 

"The jehadi mentality that led Babar to destroy the Ram temple at Ayodhya more than 400 years ago was the same mentality that led to partition of the country in 1947, attack on the World Trade Center at New York on September 11 last year and attack on Parliament on December 13, 2001," he said.

 

He said the Centre had been given time till March 12 to hand over the undisputed land in Ayodhya to the VHP.

 

Togadia refused to comment on RSS spokesman M G Vaidya's statement on Monday at Nagpur that a mosque could be built near the proposed Ram temple at Ayodhya.

 

"I have read Vaidya's statement in newspapers, but I do not want to comment on it," he said.

 

The VHP leader said a letter had been written to Congress President Sonia Gandhi by Swami Chinmayananda on behalf of the VHP, urging her to listen to the issue of the Ram Temple, "something that concerns the feelings of crores of Hindus all over the country."

 

She has, however, failed to meet so far, he lamented.

 

He said though the construction of the Ram Temple at Ayodhya would surely begin on March 15, the whole process was likely to take at least five years.

 

Togadia said, "Everyone including the PM had been given time till March 12 to decide on whose side they are."

 

The matter relating to the undisputed land at Ayodhya was now between the central government and the VHP, he said adding that "the Uttar Pradesh government has got nothing to do with this."

 

He claimed that Shankaracharyas of all the four peeths were with the VHP on the issue of temple construction.

The proposed temple site is thought to be the birthplace of Lord Ramacandra. I think the animosity towards the Muslim invaders, offenders of Hinduism, just surfaces when given such a reason.

Ebert and Roeper gave two very raving thumbs WAY up for Monsoon Wedding which is like an Indian movie. It could be interesting for devotees - a hindu from Houston has an arranged wedding with a girl from Delhi. They say it is one of the best movies they've seen in several years.

Krsna has me doing one of my heavy forced renunciation periods. So movies, and anything beyond bargain food is just not in the budget.

Funny; life is more fun without money. Just me and Krsna.

see below

[This message has been edited by gHari (edited 03-04-2002).]

Yes, the callousness that did not recognize the extreme trauma of sexual abuse and the resulting psychological difficulties that necessarily ensue, has certainly precipitated this extreme action. I cannot, for a moment, understand ISKCON not immediately retiring the sexually abused devotees so they could have an easier time coping with life.

For not responding to God's desire here, they are now forced to do so. Still, Krsna will always recognize the reason they didn't behave with conscience immediately. They and their big plans certainly have none of my respect either.

Remembering Prabhupada's comments about the legal jockeying for the riches of the Gaudiya Math, one fears to guess what he would say about such legal battling over his ISKCON legacy. Dismantling the Deities and Temples is the same as killing Prabhupada, and is absolutely demonic.

I do not see Prabhupada suing the Deities; neither do I call anyone who would, a devotee. It takes more than a uniform and a haircut to be considered a servant of LOrd Caitanya.

Yes, Gauracandra Prabhu, thank you for the answers. I had another more personal question and that related to why you are so fascinated and knowledgeable on this topic.

I think that any devotee who sues ISKCON for wrongful dismissal, only proves that they belong on the outside, and that the dismissal was obviously Krsna's arrangement to get rid of the chaff.

The only way to deal with it is to perfect one's life and let Krsna make suitable arrangements.

At the age of fourteen, Joseph Smith met God and Jesus. I wonder if he has described them in any of his writings? Certainly the bluish Krsna would be something to remark about.

I also wonder if the golden tablets Smith discovered, upon which the Book of Mormon was found and then transcribed by him still exist.

From the PBS and LDS websites, I got no idea of this King Follett 'tattva'. It seemed pretty much Christianity with an emphasis on the Holy Ghost.

I don't accept general whining as part of any legitimate demand for retribution. Reconstructive surgery after being brutally sodomized is what I consider should be cared for with absolute compassion by ISKCON.

Considering other minor inconveniences in the same breath as rape is abominable. Walking a few miles in bare feet or finding a few bugs in your pudding happens to almost every kid at some point in their life. It is just not front page headlines. Like every kid on the planet, we just have to deal with it; just like scraping our knee on the cement or accidentally biting our tongue - we get over it.

The misfortunes of the adults are certainly sad, but it would be completely demoniac to consider suing Prabhupada's mission over it.

Have we lost our perspective entirely?<font color="#f7f7f7">

[This message has been edited by gHari (edited 03-03-2002).]

I remember the first time I read the Brahma Samhita. It was a most humbling experience. It generated great respect and veneration for Srila Bhaktisiddhanta. He conveys in 20 words what most of us would need to use 2000 words. I definitely needed a dictionary. And it sure helps to read it over and over and over again, very, very, very slowly.

I remember it being on one of the records in early ISKCON in which Srila Prabhupada reads that famous passage about the 'transcendental autocrat'. Great stuff. Perhaps it needed to be of such lofty English to put the mental speculators in their place?

I think that it may well be that he doesn't use lofty English, but rather that he just uses the exact words, since he knows the topic so very well.

I was surprised that his English facility was so much greater than mine, even though it is my language since birth. However, I guess for one who had already memorized the entire sanskrit Bhagavad-gita by the age of seven, knowing another 'foreign' tongue to such a polished degree is not so very astonishing.

Lord Brahma is a jiva, jiva-tattva not visnu-tattva like Lord Vishnu, as described in the following Srimad Bhagavatam 1.3.5 Purport:

The puruSa, after creating innumerable universes in the mahat-tattva, entered in each of them as the second puruSa, GarbhodakazAyI ViSNu. When He saw that within the universe there was only darkness and space, without a resting place, He filled half of the universe with water from His own perspiration and laid Himself down on the same water. This water is called Garbhodaka. Then from His navel the stem of the lotus flower sprouted, and on the flower petals the birth of BrahmA, or the master engineer of the universal plan, took place. BrahmA became the engineer of the universe, and the Lord Himself took charge of the maintenance of the universe as ViSNu. BrahmA was generated from rajo-guNa of prakRti, or the mode of passion in nature, and ViSNu became the Lord of the mode of goodness. ViSNu, being transcendental to all the modes, is always aloof from materialistic affection. This has already been explained. From BrahmA there is Rudra (Siva), who is in charge of the mode of ignorance or darkness. He destroys the whole creation by the will of the Lord. Therefore all three, namely BrahmA, ViSNu and Siva, are incarnations of the GarbhodakazAyI ViSNu. From BrahmA the other demigods like DakSa, MarIci, Manu and many others become incarnated to generate living entities within the universe. This GarbhodakazAyI ViSNu is glorified in the Vedas in the hymns of Garbha-stuti, which begin with the description of the Lord as having thousands of heads, etc. The GarbhodakazAyI ViSNu is the Lord of the universe, and although He appears to be lying within the universe, He is always transcendental. This also has already been explained. The ViSNu who is the plenary portion of the GarbhodakazAyI ViSNu is the Supersoul of the universal life, and He is known as the maintainer of the universe or KSIrodakazAyI ViSNu. So the three features of the original puruSa are thus understood. And all the incarnations within the universe are emanations from this KSIrodakazAyI ViSNu.

 

In different millennia there are different incarnations, and they are innumerable, although some of them are very prominent, such as Matsya, KUrma, VarAha, RAma, NRsiMha, VAmana and many others. These incarnations are called lIlA incarnations. Then there are qualitative incarnations such as BrahmA, ViSNu, and Siva (or Rudra) who take charge of the different modes of material nature.

 

Lord ViSNu is nondifferent from the Personality of Godhead. Lord Siva is in the marginal position between the Personality of Godhead and the living entities, or jIvas. BrahmA is always a jIva-tattva. The highest pious living being, or the greatest devotee of the Lord, is empowered with the potency of the Lord for creation, and he is called BrahmA. His power is like the power of the sun reflected in valuable stones and jewels. When there is no such living being to take charge of the post of BrahmA, the Lord Himself becomes a BrahmA and takes charge of the post.

 

Lord Siva is not an ordinary living being. He is the plenary portion of the Lord, but because Lord Siva is in direct touch with material nature, he is not exactly in the same transcendental position as Lord ViSNu. The difference is like that between milk and curd. Curd is nothing but milk, and yet it cannot be used in place of milk.

 

The next incarnations are the Manus. Within one day's duration of the life of BrahmA (which is calculated by our solar year as 4,300,000 x 1,000 years) there are fourteen Manus. Therefore there are 420 Manus in one month of BrahmA and 5,040 Manus in one year of BrahmA. BrahmA lives for one hundred years of his age, and therefore there are 5,040 x 100 or 504,000 Manus in the duration of BrahmA's life. There are innumerable universes, with one BrahmA in each of them, and all of them are created and annihilated during the breathing time of the puruSa. Therefore one can simply imagine how many millions of Manus there are during one breath of the puruSa.

 

The Manus who are prominent within this universe are as follows: YajJa as SvAyambhuva Manu, Vibhu as SvArociSa Manu, Satyasena as Uttama Manu, Hari as TAmasa Manu, VaikuNTha as Raivata Manu, Ajita as CAkSuSa Manu, VAmana as Vaivasvata Manu (the present age is under the Vaivasvata Manu), SArvabhauma as SAvarNi Manu, RSabha as DakSasAvarNi Manu, ViSvaksena as Brahma-sAvarNi Manu, Dharmasetu as Dharma-sAvarNi Manu, SudhAmA as Rudra-sAvarNi Manu, Yogezvara as Deva-sAvarNi Manu, and BRhadbhAnu as Indra-sAvarNi Manu. These are the names of one set of fourteen Manus covering 4,300,000,000 solar years as described above.

 

Then there are the yugAvatAras, or the incarnations of the millennia. The yugas are known as Satya-yuga, TretA-yuga, DvApara-yuga and Kali-yuga. The incarnations of each yuga are of different color. The colors are white, red, black and yellow. In the DvApara-yuga, Lord KRSNa in black color appeared, and in the Kali-yuga Lord Caitanya in yellow color appeared.

 

So all the incarnations of the Lord are mentioned in the revealed scriptures. There is no scope for an imposter to become an incarnation, for an incarnation must be mentioned in the zAstras. An incarnation does not declare Himself to be an incarnation of the Lord, but great sages agree by the symptoms mentioned in the revealed scriptures. The features of the incarnation and the particular type of mission which He has to execute are mentioned in the revealed scriptures.

 

Apart from the direct incarnations, there are innumerable empowered incarnations. They are also mentioned in the revealed scriptures. Such incarnations are directly as well as indirectly empowered. When they are directly empowered they are called incarnations, but when they are indirectly empowered they are called vibhUtis. Directly empowered incarnations are the KumAras, NArada, PRthu, SeSa, Ananta, etc. As far as vibhUtis are concerned, they are very explicitly described in the Bhagavad-gItA in the VibhUti-yoga chapter. And for all these different types of incarnations, the fountainhead is the GarbhodakazAyI ViSNu.

 

Lord Brahma is a jiva, jiva-tattva not visnu-tattva like Lord Vishnu, as described in the following Srimad Bhagavatam 1.3.5 Purport:

The puruSa, after creating innumerable universes in the mahat-tattva, entered in each of them as the second puruSa, GarbhodakazAyI ViSNu. When He saw that within the universe there was only darkness and space, without a resting place, He filled half of the universe with water from His own perspiration and laid Himself down on the same water. This water is called Garbhodaka. Then from His navel the stem of the lotus flower sprouted, and on the flower petals the birth of BrahmA, or the master engineer of the universal plan, took place. BrahmA became the engineer of the universe, and the Lord Himself took charge of the maintenance of the universe as ViSNu. BrahmA was generated from rajo-guNa of prakRti, or the mode of passion in nature, and ViSNu became the Lord of the mode of goodness. ViSNu, being transcendental to all the modes, is always aloof from materialistic affection. This has already been explained. From BrahmA there is Rudra (Siva), who is in charge of the mode of ignorance or darkness. He destroys the whole creation by the will of the Lord. Therefore all three, namely BrahmA, ViSNu and Siva, are incarnations of the GarbhodakazAyI ViSNu. From BrahmA the other demigods like DakSa, MarIci, Manu and many others become incarnated to generate living entities within the universe. This GarbhodakazAyI ViSNu is glorified in the Vedas in the hymns of Garbha-stuti, which begin with the description of the Lord as having thousands of heads, etc. The GarbhodakazAyI ViSNu is the Lord of the universe, and although He appears to be lying within the universe, He is always transcendental. This also has already been explained. The ViSNu who is the plenary portion of the GarbhodakazAyI ViSNu is the Supersoul of the universal life, and He is known as the maintainer of the universe or KSIrodakazAyI ViSNu. So the three features of the original puruSa are thus understood. And all the incarnations within the universe are emanations from this KSIrodakazAyI ViSNu.

 

In different millennia there are different incarnations, and they are innumerable, although some of them are very prominent, such as Matsya, KUrma, VarAha, RAma, NRsiMha, VAmana and many others. These incarnations are called lIlA incarnations. Then there are qualitative incarnations such as BrahmA, ViSNu, and Siva (or Rudra) who take charge of the different modes of material nature.

 

Lord ViSNu is nondifferent from the Personality of Godhead. Lord Siva is in the marginal position between the Personality of Godhead and the living entities, or jIvas. BrahmA is always a jIva-tattva. The highest pious living being, or the greatest devotee of the Lord, is empowered with the potency of the Lord for creation, and he is called BrahmA. His power is like the power of the sun reflected in valuable stones and jewels. When there is no such living being to take charge of the post of BrahmA, the Lord Himself becomes a BrahmA and takes charge of the post.

 

Lord Siva is not an ordinary living being. He is the plenary portion of the Lord, but because Lord Siva is in direct touch with material nature, he is not exactly in the same transcendental position as Lord ViSNu. The difference is like that between milk and curd. Curd is nothing but milk, and yet it cannot be used in place of milk.

 

The next incarnations are the Manus. Within one day's duration of the life of BrahmA (which is calculated by our solar year as 4,300,000 x 1,000 years) there are fourteen Manus. Therefore there are 420 Manus in one month of BrahmA and 5,040 Manus in one year of BrahmA. BrahmA lives for one hundred years of his age, and therefore there are 5,040 x 100 or 504,000 Manus in the duration of BrahmA's life. There are innumerable universes, with one BrahmA in each of them, and all of them are created and annihilated during the breathing time of the puruSa. Therefore one can simply imagine how many millions of Manus there are during one breath of the puruSa.

 

The Manus who are prominent within this universe are as follows: YajJa as SvAyambhuva Manu, Vibhu as SvArociSa Manu, Satyasena as Uttama Manu, Hari as TAmasa Manu, VaikuNTha as Raivata Manu, Ajita as CAkSuSa Manu, VAmana as Vaivasvata Manu (the present age is under the Vaivasvata Manu), SArvabhauma as SAvarNi Manu, RSabha as DakSasAvarNi Manu, ViSvaksena as Brahma-sAvarNi Manu, Dharmasetu as Dharma-sAvarNi Manu, SudhAmA as Rudra-sAvarNi Manu, Yogezvara as Deva-sAvarNi Manu, and BRhadbhAnu as Indra-sAvarNi Manu. These are the names of one set of fourteen Manus covering 4,300,000,000 solar years as described above.

 

Then there are the yugAvatAras, or the incarnations of the millennia. The yugas are known as Satya-yuga, TretA-yuga, DvApara-yuga and Kali-yuga. The incarnations of each yuga are of different color. The colors are white, red, black and yellow. In the DvApara-yuga, Lord KRSNa in black color appeared, and in the Kali-yuga Lord Caitanya in yellow color appeared.

 

So all the incarnations of the Lord are mentioned in the revealed scriptures. There is no scope for an imposter to become an incarnation, for an incarnation must be mentioned in the zAstras. An incarnation does not declare Himself to be an incarnation of the Lord, but great sages agree by the symptoms mentioned in the revealed scriptures. The features of the incarnation and the particular type of mission which He has to execute are mentioned in the revealed scriptures.

 

Apart from the direct incarnations, there are innumerable empowered incarnations. They are also mentioned in the revealed scriptures. Such incarnations are directly as well as indirectly empowered. When they are directly empowered they are called incarnations, but when they are indirectly empowered they are called vibhUtis. Directly empowered incarnations are the KumAras, NArada, PRthu, SeSa, Ananta, etc. As far as vibhUtis are concerned, they are very explicitly described in the Bhagavad-gItA in the VibhUti-yoga chapter. And for all these different types of incarnations, the fountainhead is the GarbhodakazAyI ViSNu.

 

It was kinda funny. I was hoping to use it to convince Avinash that I had edited your post four days before you wrote it. Hence, I can see the future. And if I can, then Krsna can too, surely.

At least you didn't call me a mayavadi like Jackus did. The moron never did apologize for that; perhaps why he was slain by Krsna.

It was kinda funny. I was hoping to use it to convince Avinash that I had edited your post four days before you wrote it. Hence, I can see the future. And if I can, then Krsna can too, surely.

At least you didn't call me a mayavadi like Jackus did. The moron never did apologize for that; perhaps why he was slain by Krsna.

Deity. Arcana. Form. These words will not raise the red flags that "idol" does. Westerners see golden calves when they hear this word, the forbidden idols of the Mallakites.

Deity. Arcana. Form. These words will not raise the red flags that "idol" does. Westerners see golden calves when they hear this word, the forbidden idols of the Mallakites.

I AM OMNIPOTENT! But still can't see the future.

I AM OMNIPOTENT! But still can't see the future.