harshad

I am extremely sorry. I am walking out of the debate and these forums.

You can download this file : ISKCON Centres Around The World

Prabhu means Master. Prabhat means sunrise.

Sorry, but I dont want to be called a pasandi by equating Lord Siva and Lord Krsna.I never asked you about liberation to Siva Loka. Liberation means to go back to Godhead, either Vaikuntha or Goloka. You say : I thought, you are Vaishnava, but you failed to display any Vaishnava quality. Not even one! Love, compassion or devotion. IF you show arrogance, you get that in return. I tried to be loving towards you, but you responded in arrogance anyway. And I reply : I am sorry, but in your previous posts, you yourself made statements like "i dont believe in Caitanya's God positioning" , "This God positioning is ISKCON agenda" etc. etc. So, does such a behaviour fit a shaiva ??? I am only saying that Lord Siva is the best vaishnava. If that is so hard to digest, I cannot do anything. The Brahma-samhita (5.45) states: ksiram yathä dadhi vikära-visesa-yogät sanjäyate na hi tatah prthag asti hetoh yah sambhutäm api tathä samupaiti käryäd govindam ädi-purusam tam aham bhajämi Just as milk is transformed into curd by the action of acids, but yet the effect curd is neither same as, nor different from, its cause, viz., milk, so I adore the primeval Lord Govinda of whom the state of Sambhu is a transformation for the performance of the work of destruction. In the other Puränas and Agamas, Lord Siva's supreme status has been unequivocally declared. The Srimad-Bhägavatam (1.2.23) states that Lord Hari alone is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the sole purpose of creation, maintenance, and annihilation of this universe. He enters into the three material modes of goodness, passion, and ignorance, and then expands as Lord Siva, Lord Brahma, and Lord Visnu, respectively, to carry out such work as the creation. This statement confirms that Lord Brahma is the Supreme Controller, although at the same time it must be understood that this is so because he has been empowered by the Supreme Lord, Visnu. The Brahma-samhita (5.49) confirms this: bhäsvän yathäsma-sakalesu nijesu tejah sviyam kiyat prakatayaty api tadvad atra brahmä ya esa jagad-anda-vidhäna-kartä govindam ädi-purusam tam ahaà bhajämi I adore the primeval Lord Govinda from whom the separated subjective portion Brahma receives his power for the regulation of the mundane world, just as the sun manifests some portion of his own light in all the effulgent gems that bear the names of sürya-känta, etc. .... The scriptures also state that if a person, after considering all these facts, adamantly equates Lord Visnu with demigods like Lord Brahma, Lord Siva, and so on he is condemned as an atheist and an offender. The basis of this scriptural injunction lies in the fact that while Lord Brahma is generally an empowered jiva, Lord Siva at times is also an empowered jiva. Persons who have not researched deeply 'into this subject matter end up forming their own speculative ideas. They make such comments as, “Lord Visnu is God and not Lord Siva”, or “Lord Siva is the Supreme, not Lord Visnu.” They continue to say, 'We are undeviating devotees of Lord Visnu; we do not care for Lord Siva”, and vice versa. Hence their inclination to polemics leads them to commit offences. (As written by Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakur) So, if you believe that we are committing offenses by calling Lord Siva the greatest devotee of Krsna, then please rethink again. And also, please rethink over these statements of yours, which are like showers of nectar upon me : 1) You want to go to Krsna Loka or hell, is your business. 2) I am likely getting out of this fool's discussion with a very bitter taste. The reason - you have proved only one thing here - Sheer arrogance and inflated false ego that has come from some little bit of book reading. 3) You guys are running the God business and making money from it, so you decide. 4) Continues abuse of Shiva's name is not going to get you a Krsna Loka ticket. My Answer : ( NOTE THAT I HAVE NOT ABUSED LORD SIVA ANYWHERE, STILL YOU MAKE SUCH STATEMENTS. I HAVE ONLY SAID THAT THOSE WHO DECRY LORD SIVA, OR UNNECESSARILY PUT SIVA OVER KRSNA, ARE PASANDIS (ATHIESTS)) 5) Shiva says "there is nothing separate from me. I'm the Supreme Lord"! Why do I have to hear anything after this? My Answer : There are many personalities of Godhead, like Siva, Narayana etc. But amongst all the personalities of Godhead, Krsna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. So that is what you need to listen after hearing that Siva is a personality of Godhead. Sure you answered from the Padma Purana that Siva gives liberation of five types, but Siva cannot give liberation to Goloka, and that is what we Hare Krsnas are looking for. When I asked you whether Siva can send you back home, I meant Goloka Vrindavana, not Sivaloka. I dont want to go to Sivaloka. I want to go to Goloka. I am simply saying that if you want to go to Sivaloka, then best of luck. I have given you sufficient scriptural arguments that chanting Hari naam is the easiest way out of this world, yet if you want to follow the difficult way, then best of luck in your sojourn. Hare Krsna..

First of all, let it be clarified that Krsna is not a "previous incarnation" of Rama. When it comes to the spiritual world, there is no value of material time. So, materially Lord Krsna may have appeared after Lord Ramacandra, yet the original Personality of Godhead is Krsna. You have quoted from Sri Padma Purana wherein Lord Siva says that he gives five types of Liberations. But the devotees of Lord Krsna are not interested in going back to Siva Loka. Read the following verse : goloka-nämni nija-dhämni tale ca tasya devi-mahesa-hari-dhämasu tesu tesu te te prabhäva-nicayä vihitäs ca yena govindam ädi-purusam tam aham bhajämi (Brahma Samhita verse 5.43) Translation : Lowest of all is located Devi-dhäma [mundane world], next above it is Mahesa-dhäma [abode of Mahesa]; above Mahesa-dhäma is placed Hari-dhäma [abode of Hari] and above them all is located Krsna's own realm named Goloka. I adore the primeval Lord Govinda, who has allotted their respective authorities to the rulers of those graded realms. So, Lord Siva's abode is just above the material world. That is why sometimes, Lord Siva is considered as neither belonging to the material nor to the spiritual world. My question to you was, "Can worship of Lord Siva give a person the Love of Krsna ?" . And the verses you stated clearly prove that a devotee of Lord Siva goes back to Sivaloka. We dont want to go back to sivaloka. We Hare Krsnas want to go back to Goloka. Also, the Brhan-Naradiya Purana clearly states : harer näma harer näma harer nämaiva kevalam kalau nästy eva nästy eva nästy eva gatir anyathä Translation : In this age of Kali, no one can perform all the ritualistic ceremonies for becoming liberated; that is extremely difficult. Therefore all the sästras and all the äcäryas have recommended that in this age one chant the holy name. (185.180, Krishna Janma Khanda, Brhad Naradiya Purana) So, the process of achieving liberation is very difficult in Kali yuga (as indicated by the sloka above), and therefore there are not many Siva Bhaktas as there are Krsna Bhaktas. Kali Yuga means chanting Hari Nam. If you choose any other path, then you are violating this injunction. Also, I am quoting from the Padma Purana : ärädhanänäm sarvesäm visnor ärädhanam param tasmät paratarah devi tadiyänäm samarcanam Translation : “[Lord Siva told the goddess Durgä:] ‘My dear Devi, although the Vedas recommend worship of demigods, the worship of Lord Visnu is topmost. However, above the worship of Lord Visnu is the rendering of service to Vaisnavas, who are related to Lord Visnu.’" And from more puranas, yas tu näräyanam devam brahma-rudrädi-daivataih samatvenaiva vikseta sa päsandi bhaved dhruvam (Padma Purana) Translation : “‘A person who considers demigods like Brahmä and Siva to be on an equal level with Näräyana is to be considered an offender, or päsandi.’” mäyävädam asac-chästram pracchannam bauddham ucyate mayaiva vihitam devi kalau brähmana-mürtinä (Padma Purana, Uttara Khanda 25.7) Translation : “[Lord Siva informed goddess Durgä, the superintendent of the material world:] ‘In the Age of Kali I take the form of a brähmana and explain the Vedas through false scriptures in an atheistic way, similar to Buddhist philosophy.’” This above sloka is the prediction of Sankaracarya, the propogator of the Mayavada philosophy. Lord Krsna gives 5 types of Liberations and four of them are based in the spiritual world. they are särüpya (equal bodily feature), sälokya (equal facility to live on the same planet with the Lord), särsti (equal possession of opulence like the Lord), and sämipya (equal association with the Lord). The fifth kind of liberation is sayujya (merging with the effulgence of the lord), which the vaishnavas never accept. It is also understood from the sastras that the power to give liberation to living entities is given to Siva by Krsna. Otherwise, great devotees of Siva like Ravana and Vrkasura would have attained Siva Loka.But that is not the case. Lord Siva cannot give liberation to a devotee who is inimical to Lord Krsna, and this shows the dependence of Siva on Krsna. Of course, Lord Siva is honoured in the Vaishnava sampradaya as nobody else ("Vaishnavanam Yatha Shambhu" - which means "Amongst all the Vaishnavas, there is nobody like Shambhu or Lord Siva)... But let the difference be clear. Lord Siva is a devotee of Krsna. Hare Krsna.

Prabhu, This is the list of the temples in Malaysia : If you know any devotee in any of these temples, you can ask him/her for the ceremonies performed for a newborn child. That is the best I can tell you..

Lets review again what you have said : 1) When Krsna assumed and showed his divine form, he was just not the cowherd Krsna but Narayan himself. My answer : Wrong.. He showed the universal form which contained all the incarnations, which proved that all incarnations are present in Krsna. 2) Now think for a moment, the Krsna who had showed the whole universe in his mouth and showed the radiance of a thousand suns in his eternal form, after showing all this to Arjuna goes on to narrate the eternal form of Lord Sadashiva and how he had to perform rigorous tapasya to see this form!!! Ans) Are you talking about Bhagavad Gita ??? As far as I know, after showing the universal form, Krsna shows his two-armed form to arjuna and then goes ahead to explain devotional service to arjuna. And Krsna also says "Bhaktya Mam Abhijanati" in the bhagavad gita, which means "Only the devotee can know me"... Not a yogi or a gyani. I have requested you so many times to give me one verse from any scripture written by Vyasa which shows superiority of Siva over Krsna ... why have you not done that ???? 3) Now this life is not only about sense gratification either as Prabhupada says in his lecture that all professional life is about sense gratification. If I were to follow that, then I would leave my profession and sit under a tree in Vrndavana and beg for food while preaching very high ideas of life on other planets while myself hardly being able to make two ends meet. And the only aim is to go back. There are other aspects to it, that your 'sampradaya' overlooks. If today I have a problem in the family and I go to one of the Gurus in Iskcon, then they are not able to present a good remedy for it. They can say, love Krsna, sing bhajan and read Prabhupada's books!! But I need a specific solution to a specific problem in my life. But they have nothing to do with material life, and I still have time to go back to Godhead. What do I do? They themselves don't have a family!! And they themselves are not Jivanmukta yet!! But there is a material life too and it has problems related to material nature!! Ans.) You have not understood what yukta vairagya means. For you, renunciation means going to Vrindavana. This is not the type of renunciation taught in ISKCON. You have again misundertood and passed a wrong judgement. The gurus in ISKCON give long term solutions (chanting Hare Krsna, reading Prabhupadas books), but you want a quick short term solution. That we cannot give, because we dont support short term solutions. No matter how much jivanmukta you become, material world always has problems. Even Lord Krsna had to face the opposition and bad words of Sisupala, so your fancied life of zero material distress is not to be fulfilled in this world. Instead one should pray like Kunti Devi prays : vipadah santu täh sasvat tatra tatra jagad-guro bhavato darsanam yat syäd apunar bhava-darsanam Translation : I wish that all those calamities would happen again and again so that we could see You again and again, for seeing You means that we will no longer see repeated births and deaths. (SB 1.8.25) This is the result of devotional service. One forgets his happiness and distress and concentrates on the Lord. If you want temporary solutions to temporary problems, go to a management guru. But again, those management gurus too have their own problems. 4) I reply: taking into consideration your God positioning agenda and fact you wrote that you position Narayan or Vishnu lower than Krsna, then you must know, that Narad whom you are proudly quote chanted the name "Narayan, Narayan!!" and not Krsna Krsna! He gave initiation to Bhakta Prahlad of "Om namah Bhagwate Vasudevaya" mantra and not Hare Krsna mantra! Lol! Of course Vasudev is Krsna and Vasudev is Narayana! Ans) Who told you narada chants only "Narayan Narayan" ??? Dont take bogus information from TV serials. Narada chants various glories of the Lord. Of course Krsna is non different from narayana, yet there are small differences. Similarity and simultaneous difference, this is acintya bhedabheda tattva. 5) Take Padma Purana and go to the section that is the Shiva Gita. You will not find this Purana with BBT!! Go and get a copy at the Gita Press, a leading Vaishnava literature Press not narrowly limited to Gaudiya sects. Here Lord Shiva preaches to Ramachandra that HE is the giver of the four kinds of mukti or liberation. I have different rules for a preacher. I believe that every Tom, Dick and Hary cannot just preach to others like in your sect. The preaching should come from a personality that is at least somewhat realized. Because the process of Yog and tantra are not simple bhakti where you can say - sing and dance and love and memorize cantos. If you are not realized you cannot help the devotee in case of higher levels of consciousness. So I never made an agenda to preach by naming verses. I am naming them here, because there is no other way that you would understand it through as individual Self realization does not play any part. Only your ability to quote the chapter, verse numbers etc. But believe me you will find the verse in the Shiva Gita!! It is very much similar to Gita of Krsna (so Krsna received the Gita in his previous incarnation from Lord SadaShiva - a fact that I know in advanced would only provoke, agitate you and you will not believe this!). But as I read the lovingly Vaishnava scriptures, including the books of Prabhupada, I suggest you to read this too!! Ans) Gita press publishes all kinds of books, some prescribe meat sacrifices to Kali, some prescribe some other things. I dont want that hodgepodge. If you want that, fine... NOT ME... Why dont you eat meat as Ramakrsna Mission sadhus eat ???? Why dont you show your "harmony" towards them by eating meat and fish ???? Why dont you show your harmony towards Charvaka by following his philosophy and engaging in unlimited sex life ????? If you cannot do that, then stop calling us narrow-minded !!!! If you cannot follow all philosophies properly, stop calling us narrow minded, because atleast we are focussed on one philosophy. 6) If you claim that all the mantras and sadhnas that were being practiced in the Vedic period are ineffective in Kaliyuga and that Hari-naam is the "ONLY" way, then I wonder why you even care to call yourself as Vedic? Of course the Vedas are the basis and they mentioning incite confidence amongst masses! (Just like saying Hindu incites some sense of preference amongst Hindu diaspora when you need their support in terms of funds and social acceptability abroad). But the sadhna paddhati in Vedic period was different than what you follow. Know that I speak the truth here. You do not even read the Vedas!! Ans.) HAVE YOU READ THE BHAGAVATAM ???? DID YOU READ THE LAST VERSE OF SRIMAD BHAGAVATAM ????? DONT CRACK JOKES HERE .... näma-sankirtanam yasya sarva-päpa pranäsanam pranämo duhkha-samanas tam namämi harim param (SB 12.13.23) Translation : I offer my respectful obeisances unto the Supreme Lord, Hari, the congregational chanting of whose holy names destroys all sinful reactions, and the offering of obeisances unto whom relieves all material suffering. DONT BLUFF PEOPLE ... THE VERSE OF CAITANYA CARITAMRITA PERFECTLY APPLIES TO YOU. YOU HAVE COLLECTED ALL SORTS OF LITERATURES, BUT HALF READ THEM ALL... YOU CANNOT EVEN QUOTE ONE VERSE... 7) Why didn't they leave everything and just live on alms and only sing and chant? Do you think our rishis were fools that they laid down these four main accomplishments without which life is not complete?? Krsna enjoyed everything in his life, while establishing the highest principles! Vivekananda was right in saying that one should be self reliant. That was so much needed in India especially in those days. A magnificent and grand country as 'Bharatwarsh' became slave because of this begging and humility. Because they accepted that this life is nothing!! We are nothing!! Our bodies are excreta and bones and flesh and we are fallen! And came forth personalities that showed showed this self reliance, confidence and the will power. And Prabhupada called him a rascal! You can't lead the life of a beggar in the name of spiritual progress!! Ans.) You sir, are not only envious of Krsna, but also have not understood Yukta Vairagya properly. You are interested in phalgu vairagya, so go follow it... 8) I do accept and acknowledge the truth in the preaching of Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu! For you to write a line like in favor of devotion to Lord Shiva would be very difficult as you may not be able to accept anything else. You may not accept any other God realized saint either. And fortunately Bharatvarsh had plenty of them. Each came to shower mercy and show a path to HIM! And no I do not accept that singing bhajan and book distribution is the ONLY path!! It is one way of doing sadhna. ?It is your way. And a good way. Keep it up! Ans) Yes, go follow your way, and start your own school of knowledge. I will just quote one verse from the CC which caitanya mahaprabhu says : brahma, ätmä, bhagavän—krsnera vihära e artha nä jäni’ mürkha artha kare ära (CC ADI 2.60) Translation : Not knowing that Brahman, Paramätmä and Bhagavän are all features of Krsna, foolish scholars speculate in various ways. 9) It is true that one has to follow a particular path to get sure success in his sadhna! Otherwise, he will get distracted from his own sadhna. So it is good that you follow the way shown by Sri Chaitanya! As far as becoming a bookworm is concerned, then again there is this hypocrisy thing in your sect. Though you proudly quoted the verse, but most of the times, the only source seems to be these books for you to quote something!! You spend endless time to read and memorize these quotes so that you can meet a guy in street and impress him with one of the quotes and win over an argument! So much for the book worming! Ans.) We will do anything for Krsna. If you dont like it, go start your own school. You sir, are totally dipped and well soaked in envy of Krsna and His devotees. Gopala Krsna Maharaja must be having a hard time dealing with people like you... 10) If I follow what all murtis are there in India, then I will have to need a couple of more lifetimes to know basic 'mahima' behind each. You are right at that too. No I do not worship the sad-bhuja murti. What's the need? I can instal any murti in my agya chakra and worship it! Be it Rama or Shiva, or my Gurudev Paramhansa Swami Nikhileshwarananda! And I follow this kriya yoga technique that was so earnestly taught by Krsna to Arjuna in Bhagwad Gita!! Ans.) WOW !! You just contradicted yourself. You yourself dont have time for all the murtis, and you expect people to know all vedic techniques before passing a judgement ???? And what am I hearing ????? Krishna taught Kriya Yoga in bhagavad gita ????? MWUHAHAHAHAHA .... WOW , great.... publish your bhagavad gita and try to sell it. Lets see how many devotees of Siva you can make ... 11) As I stated before Gaudiya philosophy was formed 500 years back only!! Okay, fine, came down on earth!! Gita and Bhagwatam were written much before that. Now why did you had to rewrite them again? To be in line with your philosophy. I guess the BBT is still busy finishing parts of Bhagwatam to be written in their fashion? Or is it that my information is now older? Ans.) NO SIR... You dont even know what BBT is doing... The original bhagavatam was preserved on wood barks. We cannot sell that to anyone. We rewrote them to convey the exact meaning of the bhagavatam in english. BBT is publishing the same bhagavatam which prabhupada translated as it is... That is our system. 12) Also, do you want me to read each and every verse written in every Vaishnava scripture?? Aren't you contradicting your own self Harshad? Aren't you asking me to become a book worm?? Srimad-Bhägavatam (7.13.8) warns you against this? You quoted that!! Now see where you are going. Ans.) I am only asking you to follow your own philosophy of understanding a philosophy completely before passing a judgement. I dont see how I am contradicting myself ??? GITA PRESS HAS CREATED HAVOC IN INDIA....

Where do you stay ???

It is not only an understanding of only Gaudiya Vaishnavas that Krsna is the supreme, but it is the understanding of Narada, Vyasa, Sukadeva Gosvami, Yudhisthir, Yamaraj and all the twelve mahajanas, and not to forget, Lord Brahma too (Govindam adi purusham, tam aham bhajami).... Please give me the reference from the scriptures where it is mentioned that Lord Siva can give four types of Mukti. Dont just give the translation, give the sanskrit sloka. You said " The Lord sends his top representatives and He Himself comes from time to time to establish righteousness and emphasize a particular aspect of spiritual life. " And I reply : But Krsna Himself says in the Gita that He comes to establish true religion (not emphasize a particular aspect of the absolute truth). You said : "And this (Gaudiya) lineage was started only 500 years ago. Krsna bhakti has always been a part of indian culture though. And I reply : So what difference does it make ??? The Sri Lineage was established only 1000 years ago and the Madhva Lineage only 2000 years ago... Why should time be a consideration in determining what the absolute truth is ??? The gaudiya lineage was not started, it was brought down on earthly planets by the desire of Caitanya Mahaprabhu. You say : " I never talk out of ignorance and I'm well aware of the feelings and literature of Gaudiya Sampradaya with at least 14 years of research starting a time when I started associating with Gopal Krisna Goswami back in Vrndavana. But I am also well researched know sadhna intricacies of the Shaiva and Shakta and Tantra lineages too. If you read the Hindi literature you know about the saints of 'Bhakti Kaal'. Lord Chaitanya also came during this period, So did Mirabai, Goswami Tulsidas, Kabir, and many other great saints. All were great saints and acheived God realization through the devotional nectar of bhakti, love and compassion. That was the accent during this period. It was a difficult period for India that was under the Muslim and British opression. People needed more patience and love. There was a need for Bhakti more than ever. " And I reply : Now I understood, why you speak like that. You say that you researched deeply into Gaudiya scriptures for 14 years, so did you not read the verse : "bahu-ästre bahu-väkye citte bhrama haya sädhya-sädhana srestha nä haya niscaya" (CC Adi 16.11) Translation : If one becomes a bookworm, reading many books and scriptures and hearing many commentaries and the instructions of many men, this will produce doubt within his heart. One cannot in this way ascertain the real goal of life. Read the purport : In Srimad-Bhägavatam (7.13.8) it is said, granthän naiväbhyased bahün na vyäkhyäm upayunjita: “One should not read many books, nor should one try to make a profession of reciting many books, especially if one is a devotee.” One must give up the ambition to be a learned scholar and in this way earn a worldly reputation and financial facilities. If one diverts his attention to studying many books, he cannot fix his mind in devotional service, nor can he understand many scriptures, for they are full of grave statements and meanings. In this connection Srila Bhaktisiddhänta Sarasvati Thäkura gives his opinion that those who are attracted to studying many kinds of literature concerning various subject matters, especially fruitive activities and philosophical speculation, are deprived of unalloyed devotional service because of their splayed attention. Man has a general tendency toward fruitive activities, religious ritualistic ceremonies and philosophical speculation. A living entity thus bewildered since time immemorial does not understand the real goal of life, and thus his activities in life are wasted. Innocent persons misled in this way are deprived of unalloyed krsna-bhakti, devotional service to the Lord. Tapana Misra is a vivid example of such a person. He was a learned scholar, but he could not ascertain what the goal of life is. Therefore he was given a chance to hear Lord Caitanya Mahäprabhu instructing Sanätana Gosvämi. Lord Caitanya’s instruction to Tapana Misra is especially significant for persons who loiter here and there collecting books and reading none of them, thus becoming bewildered regarding the aim of life. -- END OF PURPORT -- So, if you say that you have done research on many sastras and that there are other paths as good as bhakti, then this verse applies to you. You say : And give wrong examples. For example I also often hear the "pot smoking Shiva babas" example in Iskcon. Now if was to talk about Iskcon judging just by a few people, then I would say something like - "oh these guys have millions of dollars of child molestation cases and so many things happening inside". But NO! As this is not the Iskcon standard, but a few mistakes committed by some of the people in it. And I reply : So, you are very much hurt by the statements of some neophytes who decry Lord Siva... You should not associate with such devotees who criticize Lord Siva. Why do you choose to associate with such devotees ??? Why dont you simply keep association of Prabhupada's books ??? Why go here and there and take everyone's opinion ??? Just read prabhupadas books and you will see the difference. You say : If Krsna and Rama established an example of sadhna then it was not about all dancing and singing!! This is what Chaitanya did! This was not what they did in the Vedic Kaal!! Of course, bhakti was always a very important element present in any sadhna. In order for me to judge something for myself, I have to try it completely upto a level, research it thoroughly, know its essence and then talk over it. Similarly, I would appreciate, someone to learn the Shaiva, Shakt, Yoga tradition well enough and practice it, and only then pass a judgement. Otherwise all talk and no walk is not the best way to know the reality!! And I reply : Caitanya is non-different from Lord Krsna and Lord Rama. If you have seen the sad-bhuja murti of Mahaprabhu, it clearly shows that Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu is non-different from Krsna and Rama. Do you know what sad-bhuja murti is ??? As far as practising any system and then judging it is concerned, i would like to say that, in my life of 50-70 years, I do not have any time to perfect myself in any other system of knowledge other than bhakti. If my life would have been 10000 years then I could have given a consideration. As far as I am concerned, I simply follow what Prabhupada has said : "The fact is that I am the only one in India who is openly criticizing, not only demigod worship and impersonalism, but everything that falls short of complete surrender to Krishna. My Guru Maharaja never compromised in His preaching, nor will I nor should any of my students. We are firmly convinced that Krishna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and all other are His part and parcel servants. This we must declare boldly to the whole world, that they should not foolishly dream of world peace unless they are prepared to surrender fully to Krishna as Supreme Lord." (Said by Prabhupada in Letter to Giriraja Maharaja) You say : And I quoted many shastras that you probably didn't even read!! Again, this God positioning agenda is completely yours and you can pursue it forever! I have nothing to do with it. But one has to follow a certain path leading to liberation. People who finally get a mukti through the grace of Lord Shiva do not spin in a vacuum. They enjoy Lord Shiva's pastimes in ShivaLoka in devotional service. Just as Vaishnavas go to Vaikunth! And I reply : Just quote sastras with sanskrit verses giving references like I do. Dont just quote the translations. God positioning is not my agenda, it is the system of understanding of the absolute truth given in the entire bhagavatam, the entire Gaudiya Vaishnava understandings. You say : Goswami Tulsi das said the same thing about Lord Ramachandra! That was his truth. At the time of Ramachandra, the rishis prayed to Lord Shiva with the same feelings and that was their truth!! Radha Rani can make Krsna dance the way she likes and that is her truth!! This is complicated but simple concept. People in Barsana do not pay attention to Krsna as they do to Radha Rani. They say - We have Radha, Krsna will have to come after her anyway!! He can't remain far! So all we need is her mercy! I do not have to follow Chaitanya's God positioning!! And I Reply : There are not many truths. There is only one truth. Tulsidas' truth, Radharani's truth , if you compare like that, it will be offensive because, you are not on the level of Tulsidas or Srimati Radharani. Nobody can ever be on the level of Srimati Radharani. If you think that people in Varsana do not give as much attention to Lord Krsna as they do to Srimati Radharani, then I must say that you are heavily mistaken. You associated with Gopal Krsna Maharaj who is making thousands of devotees all around the world, yet you could not understand the real purpose of life ??? If you do not want to follow Caitanya Mahaprabhu's teachings, then you can do whatever you want. Be a great scholar, and read all scriptures, and then pass a judgement. But do not pass a judgement on the gaudiya scriptures unless you read them completely. Lord Ramacandra was an incarnation of Lord Krsna as given in the Srimad Bhagavatam (there is no other scripture which disagrees with this) : asmat-prasäda-sumukhah kalayä kalesa iksväku-vamsa avatirya guror nidese tisthan vanam sa-dayitänuja ävivesa yasmin virudhya dasa-kandhara ärtim ärcchat (SB 2.7.23) Translation : Due to His causeless mercy upon all living entities within the universe, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, along with His plenary extensions, appeared in the family of Mahäräja Iksväku as the Lord of His internal potency, Sitä. Under the order of His father, Mahäräja Dasaratha, He entered the forest and lived there for considerable years with His wife and younger brother. Rävana, who was very materially powerful, with ten heads on his shoulders, committed a great offense against Him and was thus ultimately vanquished. so, if you have actually read all the gaudiya scriptures, why did you not read this verse ???? And if you have not read all the gaudiya scriptures, why do you pass your judgement on them ???? Hare Krsna...

You were saying that you do not like the idea of positioning of God. But this is something iskcon devotees have to preach. Caitanya Mahaprabhu has Himself said : ekale isvara krsna, ära saba bhrtya yäre yaiche näcäya, se taiche kare nritya (CC Adi 5.142) Translation : Lord Krsna alone is the supreme controller, and all others are His servants. They dance as He makes them do so. If you study the Gaudiya Vaishnava literatures properly, you will come to know that the positioning is also done between Krsna and Narayana. Narayana does not have some of the qualities of Krsna. The original, most complete personality of Godhead is Krsna. Krsna has all the sixty four qualities which should be present in the original personality of Godhead. Srila Rupa Goswami, the head of all the Gaudiya Vaishnavas, writes in Nectar of devotion : “Krsna has four more [qualities], which are not manifest even in the Näräyana form of Godhead, what to speak of the demigods or living entities. They are as follows: (61) He is the performer of wonderful varieties of pastimes (especially His childhood pastimes). (62) He is surrounded by devotees endowed with wonderful love of Godhead. (63) He can attract all living entities all over the universes by playing on His flute. (64) He has a wonderful excellence of beauty which cannot be rivaled anywhere in the creation.” So, it is not a question of comparison, but the truths are so clearly evident that, Krsna is the supreme personality of Godhead. About this, we are very firm, and well backed up by scriptures. Lord Ramacandra may have worshipped Lord Siva, but that does not mean that Siva is superior to Lord Ramacandra. When Lord Ramacandra wanted to cross the ocean, He also worshipped the ocean demigod, so does that mean the ocean demigod is greater than Lord Ramacandra ??? Certainly not... The Lord does so in order to set an example. We are not biased towards anyone. If the shastras would have said that Siva is supreme, we would have accepted it. But the truth is that Krsna is the supreme (as revealed in the sastras). It is Krsna's expansion Narayana who is ultimately approached by the demigods when they are in any trouble. When the demon Vrkasura was practising severe austerities, Lord Siva became pleased and granted him a boon. Then Vrkasura used that boon against Siva, and finally Krsna came to the rescue. Similarly, when Brahma granted Hiranyakasipu the boon of almost immortal life, Hiranyakasipu created lots of troubles. Finally, it was Lord Nrsimhadeva who saved the situation. It may have been that your family may be worshipping Lord Siva according to tradition, or maybe you got attracted to Lord Siva. That is alright. But we want to tell everyone including you that, "The actual truth is that Lord Krsna is the supreme.".. If you worship Lord Siva regularly, he will easily grant you the benediction of mukti. But we are not after mukti, we want to have pure love of Krsna. And that cannot be attained by worshipping Lord Siva. That has to be attained by worshipping Lord Krsna. These are simple facts. I do not want to agitate your mind and I do not want to decry Lord Siva (I dare not think of that)... Neither did Prabhupada ever say anything against Lord Siva. He only said that the perfect Saivite is promoted to the next level - Vaishnava.Because mukti without Love of Godhead has no meaning. One cannot remain in Brahmajyoti for eternity. One has to enter the Vaikuntha planets to achieve eternal life. Brahmajyoti is formless and does not have variegatedness. A living entity is looking for variegatedness and that variegatedness is found only beyond the Brahmajyoti (Vaikuntha Planets). Many people may not believe this, but we present the truth as it is. I hope this does not disturb you. But it is my duty to present to everyone, the unadultarated truth. For doing this, we are sometimes called Fanatics, Sectarian etc. but we do not mind that. Detailed explanation of position of Brahma and Siva is as follows : Guna Avatara : Guna means “material qualities,” of which there are three categories: passion, which generates the creation of the material manifestation; goodness, which maintains the material manifestation; and ignorance, which destroys the creation. Brahmä is in charge of creation, Visnu maintenance, and Siva destruction. Lord Visnu is a direct expansion of Krsna and is therefore in the visnu-tattva category. Brahmä is a post for managing the secondary material creation. The post is most often filled by a highly qualified devotee of Krsna (jiva-tattva), but if no one is available, then Visnu will perform Brahmä’s duties. Siva is also a devotee of Lord Krsna. He possesses more of Krsna's qualities than ordinary souls, but less than Krsna or His expansions and incarnations. Siva is in a category of his own, called siva-tattva.

Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur once desired in his childhood that he wanted to eat mangoes. Bhaktivinode Thakur said in a grave voice that "The Mangoes have not been offered to giridhari" .... After that Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur vowed never to eat mangoes. A vow which he followed throughout his life. Whenever people would ask Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur about bhaktivinode thakur, he would say "You have not seen the actual Bhaktivinode Thakur". Bhaktivinode thakur was acting as an ordinary personality, but infact his real mood was much more different...

So do not give any donation and do not believe in krsna as the supreme.. Simple.. And dvaitin, before you say something about Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur, do your research work properly. It is not possible for you to even enter into an understanding of Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur from the external mundane viewpoint. So keep these statements to yourselves. We do not personally attack your spiritual masters and it would be in your best spiritual interest to not attack gaudiya vaishnavas (unless you want to continue your existence in samsara). Bhaktisiddhanta sarasvati Thakur is very dear to Lord Jagannatha, and if you say something against him, it will be on your own risk... Think properly and act...

Hmm... lets review your charges. 1) Now, I gave enough Shastra praman to start with. Probably you did not read my message carefully enough! Please Go throughit again! You failed to answer about the part of Mahabharata that I quoted Lord Sri Krsna HIMSELF!! My answer : I can throw the entire Bhagavatam at you and you can throw the entire Shiv Mahapuran at me. You are saying that I am biased and I am saying that you are biased. Therefore it is necessary that some incident other than that of Bhagavatam and Shiv Mahapurana must be the litmus test for the superiority. The litmus test of superiority of Vishnu over Siva was done by Bhrigu Muni who went and kicked in the chest of Vishnu and Vishnu did not get angry. This fact is known to everyone in Vedic culture. Therefore, this test by Bhrigu muni was establised as the Litmus test of Superiority of Vishnu over Shiva (although they may both seem to be Supreme.) More over Lord Siva is addressed as "Mahadeva" and Maha means big and deva means demigod. And Lord Krsna is addressed as Sri Bhagavan or Parameshvara throughout the vedic texts, and Param means supreme. If these simple facts are not understood, what can I do ??? 2) Secondly, Prabhupada had to translate the literature already available to be in line with his own philosophy, that overlooks other aspects and elements of Vedic spiritual practices and emphasizes only his way of thinking. He had a very strong desire to establish his way of thinking above all other ways and it is the main agenda to this day of his followers too. Though in principle, the underlying principles of Vaishnava philosophy is definitely Love, Devotion, Compassion!! And not bheda-bhava or comparing and fighting over the differences!! This is not intelligence!! Understand me correctly! Here I'm not referring to the Gaudiya Chaitanya Sampradaya that it is not intelligent! But What I mean to say is that this strong accent on putting down everybody else and praising only yourself leads to wars! This is the root cause of all wars based on world religions and sects!! My Answer : No, Prabhupadas thinking is non-different from the thinking of all other acaryas in Gaudiya Vaishnava sampradaya. We do not compromise or water down our teachings to be in line or in harmony with other religions/sects/philosophies. "I am Okay You are Okay" this is not our philosophy. Prabhupada once heard this sentence "I am okay you are okay" from a disciple and he replied back "This is not our philosophy. Our philosophy is I am OK You are NOT OK".... We are not putting down everything else, we just say that all other paths will not lead to love of Krishna. So, if you consider love of Krishna as highest, then follow our path, otherwise you can decide what is highest for you. As far as we are concerned, there is not even a slight chance of change or adjustment of our philosophy. In prabhupadas own words "My Guru Maharaja never compromised, I never compromised , and my disciples should never compromise." ... So that is our philosophy "NO COMPROMISE"... You have confused acintya bhedäbheda tattva with the mundane bheda-bhava of modern world. Therefore I am again saying that you do not know gaudiya philosophy, neither do you understand prabhupadas mood. 3) This attachment to self and your own clan etc. is symbolic of ego. Ego is influenced by Maya. And unless you are a JivanMukta realized soul, you are under Maya! So what's the use of calling people mayawadi anyway? Just to call people names? What's in a name? My Answer : Mayavadi does not mean "one who is under maya". Mayavadi means one who is a supporter of Sankaracarya or one who propogates the theory that "EVERYTHING IS ONE". We do not believe in such theories. That is why our parampara has come from madhvacarya who firmly believed and propogated dvaitavada (dualism) as opposed to Sankaracarya who preached Advaitavada (monism). 4) Dear Vaishnava brother, Vaishnavism is not based on this bhed-bhava philosophy alone!! It does that distinction to understand the God-devotee relationship, but not to mug down others and show how great you are. It does contain other schools of thougts as AUTHENTIC as yours! The Ramananda sampradaya for example is also a pure vaishnava sampradaya. But if you had to base the authenticity of a school of thought on the basis of its marketing strategy, then we will be following Coke and Pepsi. Beacuse if you have one big ISKCON temple in Delhi, then you have thousands and thousands of Pepsi outlets there and in every city of the world. It is good that some of the current Gurus are well educated and experienced working in one of these companies and know the rules of the game well. And I'm glad that they are using them to propagate the God business. It is certainely better than propagating Pepsi and Coke! But why this friction?? Did we ever see Lord Krsna in his life time creating differences between a Shiva bhakta and a sadhaka of say Sun God? My Answer : Other Vaishnava Sampradaya are as authentic as our sampradaya. But that does not mean that we will mix all philosophies and propound everything as one. Will all the shiv bhaktas, ramanandis, etc agree to worship Caitanya Mahaprabhu as yuga avatara ???? If they cannot do that, why think of spiritual oneness and merger ??? 5) For example, Krsna says that I am in every living being. Now you believe that completely. This is belief! Seeing or realizing brings us closer to 'science'. When we say the 'science' of Krisna consciousness, we don't have to use this word only to attract western followers! We are trying to realize this in our lives! And so you believe that He is in every living - non living being, in every particle. After the belief, comes the practice and realization. People are stuck in a belief without realization. Which is still good enough rather than not believing at all. So you are fortunate anyway. But if you recognized the soul within, if you experienced the anahat naad, through opening of the anahat chakra, the agya chakra, then you could even see this too!! And this is called realization! My Answer : If you think that you want to see the soul from your vision through yoga process, try it. Prabhupada always said that "The soul can be percieved by the symptom of consciousness". He never encouraged any yoga or meditation, because yoga and meditation was proper in previous ages, where meditation for thousands of years was possible. Nowadays, only one thing is possible - HARI NAAM SANKIRTAN... and that we are doing. We are not only after western followers, but all people. ISKCON is not a foriegner hunting society, it is a place for devotional service. Those who get attracted come , and those who are not attracted they do not come. We try our best, but we do not compromise. If we wanted to have western followers, we would have compromised four regulative principles (which vivekananda has done.) But that is not our philosophy. And still, by the grace of Krsna, we are having a good number of devotees. 6) This is realization! A Guru is a Realized soul and not just a 'paathi' or academician, or a lecturer. Srila Prabhupada is an Acharya! And according to the Yoga philosophy, an Acharya can be a Guru and he can be simply an acharya! My Answer : Yes, A guru has realised that he is spirit soul, servant of Krsna. He is not only an academician, but he also preaches krsna consciousness, BUT HE DOES NOT DEMAND KRSNA TO SHOW HIM THE SOUL. HE DOES NOT MAKE UNNECESSARY DEMANDS TO KRSNA. KRSNA SHOW ME THE SOUL, KRSNA SHOW YOURSELF, these are all unnecessary demands. When krsna wants , He will show himself. He had shown Himself to prabhupada when prabhupada was on Jaladuta ship to America and survived 2 heart attacks. Then Krsna said "I will protect you".... 7) What can I say? Srila Prabhupada's philosophy on Yoga is true as far as the devotional relationship to the Lord is concerned. As far as understanding the meaning of the word 'Yog'. The bhakti aspect is perfect! But it is when He comes to addressing the other Yogic principles, all that goes down the drain. HE was a great acharya and worthy of every praise in my eyes and in the eyes of thousands. But this condemning and calling everyone else a fool and rascal is not a very Vaishnava quality though!! He at least had some realization, but when the followers, without any realization, whatsoever lash out at others spitting out words like - rascals and fools, I only feel sorry for them! My answer : Vaishnava does not mean he will remain mute . Vaishnava means softer than a rose and harder than a thunderbolt. Just like ramanujacarya, just like madhvacarya. If you think that Prabhupada's explanation of other systems of yoga is imperfect, then you should start your own school of yoga where you teach other people what exactly yoga means. If your school is actually bonafide, you will become more popular than ISKCON. We want to save people from being cheated, and if it is required that the cheaters of the society be exposed , we will do it. Vivekananda could not create even one disciple in the west despite his youth. But just see the effect of prabhupada, as soon as he went, the most degraded people became krsna bhaktas... That is krsnas mercy. It is practically seen. "Phalena Paricayate" - The effectiveness of a process can be seen by its results. 8) Oh.. and what's wrong in worshipping Goddess Kali?? Kali is the primordial adi-shakti in the Universe! If you go into tantra shastra, the beej mantra of Kali and Krsna is the same. How could someone, just ignored all the good qualities of Vivekananda and the great RamaKrhisna Paramhansa and dismiss them as mere fools and rascals?? Where has the Vaishnava Love and Compassion disappeared? Kaliyuga indeed! My Answer : Yes, go ahead and worship Siva and Kali and all demigods. Become a disciple of all the gurus, and follow everyone's teachings. As far as we are concerned, we simply stick to the three basic books : Bhagavad Gita, Bhagavatam and Caitanya Caritamrita. When Sarvabhauma Bhattacarya met caitanya mahaprabhu, he said : “I had become dull-headed due to reading too many books on logic. Consequently I had become like an iron bar. Nonetheless, You have melted me, and therefore Your influence is very great.” That is our mood. We do not deviate, we do not compromise. What is wrong is wrong and what is right is right. That is our philosophy. If you think that meditating on Shiva and going to the himalayas will give you all perfection, go ahead. But do not disturb the Krsna Bhaktas, who are busy preaching the glories of the Lord throughout the world... Hare Krsna...

You can call BTG Mumbai office 022-26181718 and ask them all the info you want. Call between 10 AM to 3 PM. Hare Krishna.

Yes, he was merciful because he called vivekananda and his guru a fool and a rascal because both of them were meat eaters. Thus he exposed them and was merciful to us. Prabhupäda said : Vivekananda has influence here in higher class, among the educated class. They talk about Vivekananda and this and that, nonsense. In your country, fortunately, that opposition was not there. There was no influence of Vivekananda class men. Here amongst the educated class there is influence of all these rascals, Vivekananda, Aurobindo, and... That is one defect. But in the mass there is no influence. In the class, educated class. Because educated class means wine, women, meat, and Vivekananda allows this. That is the point. Vivekananda has no distinction of eating. "Eat any... All Brahman, all Näräyana. You are Näräyana. Goat is Näräyana. So Näräyana is going in the belly of Näräyana. What is the wrong? One Näräyana is going, being absorbed by another Näräyana." But he is not agreeable to be eaten by a tiger, another tiger Näräyana. (Room Conversation Jan 17, 1971)

Again, not to prove or disprove anything, but Mr Guest, first of all give yourself an identity before speaking. Please register here and give yourself a username. Dont remain impersonal, become personal. You are comparing srila prabhupada to vivekananda and others whereas srila prabhupada himself said that vivekananda was a rascal and a fool. If you believe that vivekananda has done something great, go follow him and eat meat and worship kali. There is always difference, there is always personalism above impersonalism. You say about the brahma samhita verse : What this verse explains is clear from what is says. But what you add on to it is different. And that's your dilution of Vedic knowledge! Though you trumpet it to be purest Vedic to gather the crowd. My sanskrit is fairly good and there is no mention of Lord Shiva's name here. But what your commentary adds if "Like Shiva" is nto even present in this sloka. Certainly you can tell the Americans and the Russians that! And some of the so called Hindus who do not read their own scriptures!! LOL! What a manipulation trip!? The explanation which i gave was given by prabhupada not me... You say :You do not even read the vedas and Puranas! Condemning everything else except Bhagwatam and Gita as tamasic or inferior!! lol! Why don't you also read Devi Bhagwatam then? Nand Maharaj and Lord Krsna's wives and his Aunty Queen Kunti devi also were great Shiva bhaktas. The Vedic times are full of Shiva devotion and sadhnas. Lord Ramachandra's forefathers were traditionally Sun and Shiva worshipers. So was Lord Ramachandra!! He wasn't God positioning!! WHy do you?? That is the state of Kaliyuga!! And that's why I call people like that Mudhas!! Who themselves do not have a level, but want to level one form of God against the other!! ??" Yes I am mudha, now what can you do???? I will position every demigod as subordinate to krsna. Come and kill me if you can. Curse me so that I may go to hell... if that is what pacifies you... You say :Why the hell in the first place do you get into this God positioning. Why do you wanna prove it?? What's there to prove?? You are anyway so far from Shiva or Krsna !! So what's the big deal about it? And I reply : I am not far from krsna because I am connected to Him through parampara. God positioning is an important part of acintya bhedabheda tattva. You Say : You do not even read the vedas and Puranas! Condemning everything else except Bhagwatam and Gita as tamasic or inferior!! lol! Why don't you also read Devi Bhagwatam then? Nand Maharaj and Lord Krsna's wives and his Aunty Queen Kunti devi also were great Shiva bhaktas. The Vedic times are full of Shiva devotion and sadhnas. Lord Ramachandra's forefathers were traditionally Sun and Shiva worshipers. And I reply : Can you give some sanskrit slokas supporting your statement from the scriptures ??? IF yes, please do that. Prabhupada had knowledge of all scriptures and he said Krsna is supreme, so we accept that. Do you have some other opinion ??? You say : Uh... excuse me? Krsna created Shiva? Was that after he killed Kamsa or before that?? Krsna appeared after the Satya Yuga! And Lord Rama was already praying to Lord Shiva then!! oh... you mean... Vishnu was the creator of Brahma! What the Vedas say.... is a bit different than what you really translate and understand. You just talked about Sankarshana appearing from the Lord. If you read the Shiva MahaPurana, it clearly states Lord Shiva to be present much before that and as he manifests his phallic form made of a great fire column, even Vishnu and Brahma are not able to know its origin or end. He is the Adi-deva, means one who has no beginning and no end! He is the Maheswara - Iswara is God and Maheswara is the Supreme or the greatest God. He is the Mahadeva - the God of all Gods!! And I reply : What problem do you have with the vaishnavas ??? Why are you angry if we say that Siva < Krsna ??? You interpret every verse in your own way, and consider siva to be supreme. You say about the sarva dharman parityajya verse : Yes So true!! You should surrender yourself to Lord Sri Krsna!! But he does not say that do not surrender to Lord Shiva. He asks Arjuna to surrender to him. And I say : What do the words "mam ekam" in that sloka mean ????? They mean only to Krishna. and not to anyone else. So that is Bhagavad gita as it is. It cannot be understood by those who do not care for distinction. In the acintya bhedabheda tattva, there is always distinction. And Lord Siva is given a position below Lord Krsna. He is Lord Krsna's greatest devotee. PLEASE GIVE SOME SASTRA PRAMAN NEXT TIME And if you want sastra praman, Read This Request to Admin of Website : Please ban aggressive blasphemers...

If you are going to give such a flawed analogy (footprints of the Supreme Lord compared to Van Damme ????) , please do not indulge in mindless debates. You donot believe in Caitanya Charitamrita, so what is the point of telling you about it. The vedanta sutra clearly says : tarka pratishtanat Translation : Existence of God cannot be proven or disproven by logical arguments. You are asking for a proof. The proof is Caitanya Caritamrita. Of course, you have to read it before you can pass a judgement on it. And you have not read it (otherwise you would not have made such statements). If you have photographs of Van Damme on your wall, I would rather not talk to you, because I do not like to talk to a person who calls himself vishnu bhakta and at the same time, keeps pictures of materialistic people in his home. This is sheer hypocrisy, and it does not suit a visnu bhakta. Srila Prabhupada is the greatest and most merciful acarya of the golden age (10000 years - starting from 500 years back) because he was the only one who took the bhagavata dharma to western countries and presented it without any deviation. He gave credit to all vaishnavas where required and always acted as Krishna's servant. These things may be difficult for you to understand, but I cannot help it. You cannot appreciate or decry any personality without reading about his life first. Madhvacarya or Ramanujacarya may be the highest acarya in your understanding. But for a fallen person like me, Prabhupada is the best acarya. Because, it was Prabhupadas books that saved me. He presented to all of us in simple language what madhvacarya and ramanujacarya presented in a language difficult for us to understand. So, you can read the sanskrit texts of madhvacarya and ramanujacarya and you can think of prabhupada as an ordinary person, but I guarantee you, no acarya will be happy by your behaviour. näham vipro na ca nara-patir näpi vaisyo na südro näham varni na ca grha-patir no vanastho yatir vä kintu prodyan-nikhila-paramänanda-pürnämrtäbdher gopi-bhartuh .-kamalayor däsa-däsänudäsah (Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu - CC Madhya 13.80) Translation : “‘I am not a brähmana, I am not a ksatriya, I am not a vaisya or a südra. Nor am I a brahmacäri, a householder, a vänaprastha or a sannyäsi. I identify Myself only as the servant of the servant of the servant of the lotus feet of Lord Sri Krsna, the maintainer of the gopis. He is like an ocean of nectar, and He is the cause of universal transcendental bliss. He is always existing with brilliance.’” Sorry but I dont want to continue this debate because it is getting more and more offensive. I am humbly moving out of here. sarva lokam sukhino bhavantu - Let everyone in all the worlds be happy.

You opened your mouth again without giving any sastric pramana. And now you are asking me to prove that Prabhupada is greater than Madhva or Ramanuja. I do not consider myself fit to do this job because I cannot compare two acharyas of the same sampradaya. I would ruin my spiritual life if i did that. I never said that SP was greater than Madhva. I only said he was the greatest acarya of this golden age of 10000 years in kaliyuga. What is the proof that Lord Caitanya did not defeat the dvaitins ??? Go to the temples in south india and you will find the pictures and footmarks of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu imprinted in many madhva temples. Dont make up bogus stories , you did not offer any pramana from sastras that siva was greatest and now you come up with half baked statements like these. Caitanya Mahaprabhu toured the entire country and made many devotees like Tukaram. you have not read caitanya caritamrita and you are acting exactly like a puffed up dwaitin. If you dont like Gaudiya Vaishnavas, thats alright. And dont be too proud. You must be knowing His Holiness Pejawar Swami Maharaj from the Sri Pejawar Math of Udupi, established by Madhvacarya... He has to say the following words about iskcon : Pejawar Swamiji's introductory speech in ISKCON conference : "ISKCON is a world wide movement established by Srila Prabhupada specifically with the aim of propagating Vishnu Bhakti. All the Vaishnava Acharyas desired this and only this society is capable of spreading Vishnu bhakti. In this endeavour we offer our help & co-operation to solve the problems of this society. So stop comparing Madhva and Prabhupada and help propogating the vaishnava dharma if you can. Your LOL's will not help you at the time of your death, nor will these anger fuelled statements against the Gaudiya Vaishnavas. THIS IS THE AGE OF THE GAUDIYA VAISHNAVAS... If you dont believe it, read the following statements by the Sri Vaishnavas : Forty-six years before the beginning of Kali Yuga, Vishnuchitta, one of the twelve great Vaisnava saints of the Sri Sampradaya predicted: "There will come a race which will tread the Earth with raised hands and vertical tilaka on their foreheads, who will chant the names of Hari; this will destroy the influence of Kali." (Divyaprabandha 1.10). Sripada Ramanuja predicted: "The pure devotion to Sri Hari devoid of karma and jnana will grow and grow like a banyan tree covering the whole world, teaching everyone who takes shelter." (Prapannamrta tarpana - last chapter) Sripada Madhvacharya predicted: "The real knowledge of the difference between jiva and Sri Hari and the service of Sri Hari will spread all over the world very shortly." (Anu Madhva Vijaya - last chapter) KRSNA SAYS IN ATHARVA VEDA : "Towards the end of the period between four-thousand to five thousand years in Kali-yuga, I will descend on the earth as Gauranga, a golden-complexioned saintly brahmana in a place by the Ganges' shore and later become the crest-jewel of all sannyasis, exhibiting all My transcendental qualities including supreme renunciation and complete detachment from material desires. In the form of Lord Gauranga, I will display all the thirty-two bodily symptoms of a great personality with my arms extending to my knees. I will become my own devotee, very advanced in bhakti-yoga and teach the worship of Lord Krsna (Myself) by the chanting of My own holy names and relishing the mellows of My own devotional service. At that time only My most confidential devotees will be able to understand Me." - (Atharva Veda, third khanda, Brahma-vibhaga) Caitanya Upanisad of Atharva Veda (the whole text of 19 verses) The Supreme Personality of Godhead, Who in the Satya-yuga appeared as a half-man half-lion to cure a terrible disease that has ravaged the daityas, and Who in Treta-yuga appeared as a person named Rama, a person who defeated the ten-headed demon Ravana, and Who in the Dvapara-yuga removed the earth's burden and protected the gopa people of Vraja-pura, will appear again in the Kali-yuga. His form will be golden, He will delight in chanting the Lord's holy names, and His name will Caitanya. (Nrsimha Purana) and yes, the most emphatic statement in the way only prabhupada could say it : "Krishna has taken birth in the womb of the Krishna Consciousness Movement!" - Srila Prabhupada So stop being a fool...and stop criticizing gaudiya vaishnavas...

Sorry for this Nicolas _ Bhai but I must say that I dont even understand one word of what you are saying. Do you use some translation program like babelfish ??? I cannot understand your english... Please write clearly...

Dear Mr. So called Dvaitin, See the fault in your own logic : First of all you say, that Prabhupäda was an ordinary man and then you say that he had great love for Krsna. But an ordinary man does not have great love for Krsna. Do the ordinary people on the streets have love for Krsna. It clearly shows what you think about love of Krsna. I asked you, Mr. Scholar, give me one verse from the Vedas, why did you not do that ???? Weak heartedness ???? Sai baba is already cheating the people by calling himself god and you support him. So that makes you another cheater. Ravishankar is not offering even a trace of Vedic literature. He is teaching "The Art of Living" whereas the Bhagavad Gita teaches the art of dying, i.e. how to die like a devotee. And all those initiated followers of Ravi Shankar and Sai baba dont follow any regulative principles and they are attached to drinking tea. So, atleast you should consider that initiated, serious devotees in ISKCON follow 4 regulative principles. Nobody in India has openly criticized demigod worship except Srila Prabhupada, and this is the reason why you are so much envious of him. If you want to go ahead and worship the demigods, you have your freewill. But dont come around here with your bogus propoganda without giving sastra-praman. Krishna is always watching, and you have already insulted Prabhupada by calling his achievement just a play of time, place and circumstance. You are also one of those athiests who say that everything happens by chance. Take this theory of chance out of these forums. Madhvacharya and Sankaracarya wont be happy if they hear this. Dont be proud of your knowledge. Caitanya Mahaprabhu defeated the proud dvaitins of the Madhva school and the impersonalists of the Sankara school. It is well documented in scriptures that Bhakti Devi will go to the western countries from Vrindavana. It is the same path which was followed by Prabhupada. He went from Vrindavana to the west and created so many hare krishnas. All the other spiritual organisations break apart when the original founder passes away, but despite many difficulties, ISKCON has survived and stands as a single unit. It is growing day by day (especially in the western countries) Even Madhvacarya himself said that "The time is not far when bhakti will cross the shores of India". The first and the last person to achieve this target is Prabhupada, who comes in the disciplic succession of Madhvacarya. I can clearly see your hatred for the Bengali Vaishnavas. This will not help in your spiritual advancement. You can read this portion of a lecture on Bhagavad Gita given by Prabhupada in New York , December 2 1966 : " There are five stages of evolution: sakta, then gänapatya, then saura, then saiva, then vaisnava. In this way, there are five stages. So the impersonalists, they worship in five ways, pancopäsanä. They are called pancopäsanä. So one, when he comes to the Visnu stage, he comes to the real stage. But (not) impersonal Visnu, all-pervading Visnu, but when he come to the personal Visnu, then that is perfection of worship." So in prabhupadas own words, saivites are on the fourth level and vaishnavas on the topmost level. If you want to read an unbiased article on Lord Siva written by Satyaraja Prabhu (disciple of prabhupada), simply download the following file : Download Link 1 Download Link 2 (If First doesnt work) And yes, only reply back if you have something to say from the scriptures, not your own whims.

If you give your email address, then I can tell you ... I live in mumbai. Just drop by your email address and i will tell you how to get the subscription...

First of all, you insult Prabhupäda by saying that he couldnt translate mahabharat, and then you go ahead to say that we should respect you. If you have no respect for the work done by Prabhupäda, then we do not have the slightest respect for you. Prabhupada has done what no other human being could have done at his age - translated the Bhagavad Gita and the Srimad bhagavatam AS IT IS and explained their meaning to the entire world - A task which many proud and erudite Saivites could not achieve for thousands of years. Nobody, and I mean nobody in the history of Vedic Culture has done what Srila Prabhupäda has done. Absolutely nobody. Going to the western countries and making thousands of Hare Krishnas. In sanskrit it is said : "Na Bhuto Na Bhavishyati" Translation : It has neither happened in the past, not will it happen in the future. This is the special position of Prabhupäda. The translation of Mahabharata has already been done in ISKCON by a devotee named Krishna Dharma Dasa... You say that Lord Krsna prayed to Lord Siva for the Pasupata Astra. But did you not read srimad bhagavatam wherein the pastime of Lord Krsna fighting Banasura, when Lord Siva got angry and threw pasupata astra at Lord Krsna and Lord Krsna neutralised it by the Narayana Astra ??? We have great respect for Lord Shiva, because he is the greatest Vaishnava devotee of Lord Vishnu. The greatness of Lord Vishnu is that He sometimes comes under the control of His devotees (just like He came under the control of Yashoda Ma when she tied him up), but this should not be misunderstood and misinterpreted. Just because Lord Krsna displays these pastimes does not mean that He is in an inferior position. Why dont you recollect and remember the mohini murti pastime, wherein Lord Krsna clearly demonstrated his superiority over Lord Shiva ??? Even Lord Brahma says in the brahma samhita : isvarah paramah krsnah sac-cid-änanda-vigrahah anädir ädir govindah sarva-kärana-käranam (Verse 1) "There are many personalities possessing the qualities of Bhagavän, but Krsna is the supreme because none can excel Him. He is the Supreme Person, and His body is eternal, full of knowledge and bliss. He is the primeval Lord Govinda and the cause of all causes." This verse explains that there are many personalities like Lord Siva, who posess qualities of Krsna, but Krsna is the greatest. That is why in the Bhagavad Gita , Krsna says : sarva dharmän parityajya, mäm ekam saranam vraja, aham tvam sarva papebhyo, moksayisyami ma suchah. (18.66) Translation : Abandon all varieties of religion and just surrender unto Me. I shall deliver you from all sinful reactions. Do not fear. Also Lord Krsna says, mattah parataram n&#257;nyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya mayi sarvam idam protam s&#363;tre mani-gan&#257;iva (7.7) Translation : O conqueror of wealth, there is no truth superior to Me. Everything rests upon Me, as pearls are strung on a thread. Lord Krsna always followed the authorised process of initiation, just like He underwent training under a guru - Sri Sandipani Muni. But Krishna does this to set an example for all others. Otherwise, everyone else will not accept guru. So, dont think that just because Krsna took initiation from someone, so Krsna is not supreme. Arjuna also fought Siva and defeated Siva to gain the pasupata-astra, so does that mean Arjuna is greater than Siva ??? Does that mean Arjuna is the Supreme ??? The number of verses in the vedas glorifying Lord Hari as the supreme are much much greater than the verses glorifying Lord Siva. It is therefore understood that, Lord Hari, who takes many incarnations is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Lord Siva is the pure devotee of Lord Krsna, and therefore He is glorified in all the three worlds. Even Lord Siva affirms that liberation can be achieved only by the mercy of Visnu. Lord Siva says in the upanishads, mukti-pradätä sarvesäm visnur eva na samsayah: "There is no doubt that Visnu is the deliverer of liberation for everyone." The verse is special because the words "na samsayah" mean there is no doubt about it. In the Mahä Upanishad it is also said that Lord Siva was born from the forehead of the Supreme Lord. Thus the Vedas say that it is the Supreme Lord Krsna, the creator of Brahmä and Siva, who is to be worshiped. In the Moksa-dharma Krsna also says, prajäpatim ca rudram cäpy aham eva srjämi vai tau hi mäm na vijänito mama mäyä-vimohitau Translation : "The patriarchs, Siva and others are created by Me, though they do not know that they are created by Me because they are deluded by My illusory energy." In the Varäha Puräna it is also said, näräyanah paro devas tasmäj jätas caturmukhah tasmäd rudro 'bhavad devah sa ca sarva-jnanäm gatah Translation : "Näräyana is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and from Him Brahmä was born, from whom Siva was born." So, in this way, I am giving proofs from outside Prabhupäda's books that Lord Siva is not the supreme. Now, can you find one verse which states that Lord Siva is the supreme absolute truth ???? Does Lord Siva say in any upanishad, purana or veda that he is the supreme absolute truth ???? We are not interested in bashing Lord Siva. Anyone who bashes Lord Siva (the topmost vaishnava) is not fit to worship Lord Krsna. But, it is to be clearly understood that, Lord Siva is not the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Only Lord Sri Krsna, the son of Nanda Maharaja, the Lotus eyed personality who awarded his childhood pastimes to Yashoda, that Krsna, is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and nobody else. Stop blaspheming Vaisnavas by calling them mudhas. We do study vedic scriptures, but only after studying Prabhupäda's books properly (because they are the foundation of our spiritual life).

Dear Guests who call us fools, The Padma Puräna mentions ten biggest offenses in devotional service. The second offense is clearly written as follows : "To consider that the Supreme Lord Vishnu and the demigods are on the same level or to think that there are many gods." Furthermore, Sri Visvanätha Chakravarti Thakur Says, Lord Brahma and Lord Siva are dependent on the Supreme Lord for theirs. This point has been confirmed in the Hari-bhakti-vilasa (1.73): yas tu näräyanam devam samatvenaiva vikseta brahma-rudrädi-daivataih sa päsandi bhaved dhruvam The scriptures also state that if a person, after considering all the facts, adamantly equates Lord Visnu with demigods like Lord Brahma, Lord Siva, and so on he is condemned as an atheist and an offender. The basis of this scriptural injunction lies in the fact that while Lord Brahma is generally an empowered jiva, Lord Siva at times is also an empowered jiva. Persons who have not researched deeply 'into this subject matter end up forming their own speculative ideas. They make such comments as, “Lord Visnu is God and not Lord Siva”, or “Lord Siva is the Supreme, not Lord Visnu.” They continue to say, 'We are undeviating devotees of Lord Visnu; we do not care for Lord Siva”, and vice versa. Hence their inclination to polemics leads them to commit offences. Now, the only way they can mitigate their offences is to meet a devotee well-versed in this topic who is willing to instruct them properly. The confused can become enlightened about everyone's real position, including in which way Lord Siva and Lord Visnu are qualitatively nondifferent. In the Siva Puräna the Supreme Personality of Godhead told Lord Siva: dväparädau yuge bhütvä kalayä mänusädisu svägamaih kalpitais tvaà ca janän mad-vimukhän kuru Translation : “In Kali-yuga, mislead the people in general by propounding imaginary meanings for the Vedas to bewilder them.” Lord Siva himself says in the Siva Purana that, worship of Lord Vishnu is the topmost form of devotion. All genuine vaishnavas accept Lord Shiva as the topmost vaishnava. But you people, say that Shiva is topmost and blaspheme Lord Hari. Lord Shiva is not pleased by such activities. Can any one of you those who claim that shiva is the supreme, produce one verse from the scriptures which says that "Lord Hari is in a lower position than Lord Shiva" ??? If you cannot do that, then do not open your mouths simply because you emotionally feel that Lord Shiva is the supreme personality of godhead. Give some proof from the vedic scriptures that Lord Shiva is above Lord Vishnu.. And as far as that person who claims that guru is dead, you should read this interview of Prabhupada : Reporter : What will happen to the movement in the United States when you die? Prabhupäda: I will never die. Devotees: Jaya! Hari bol! (laughter) Prabhupäda: I shall live for my books, and you will utilize. So, if you cannot understand how the guru lives eternally in vani, then do not put forward athiestic and rubbish statements. And please get yourself registered, atleast let us call you by some names.

Vedic Knowledge is not a question of research. The research work is already complete in the Vedas. The conclusion i.e. essential teachings required for this age of Kali Yuga are given in Shrila Prabhupäda's books. Maybe you should read them. Get them here : http://www.krishna.com/downloads/BBT_books/index.html Rather than trying to be Hindu or Muslim, try to understand your position as spirit soul. One who has understood this has surpassed all mundane religiosity.

yasya prasädäd bhagavat-prasädo yasyäprasädän na gatih kuto 'pi dhyäyan stuvams tasya yasas tri-sandhyam vande guroh sri-caranäravindam Translation : By the mercy of the spiritual master one receives the benediction of Krsna. Without the grace of the spiritual master, one cannot make any advancement. Therefore, I should always remember and praise the spiritual master. At least three times a day I should offer my respectful obeisances unto the lotus feet of my spiritual master. Another Verse : Tad vigyänärtham sa gurum eväbhigacchet (Mundaka Upanishad) Translation : In order to reach the perfection of life or to understand the real constitutional position of the living entity, one must approach the spiritual master. There is no other option.