Yesu_Bhaktan

Is Sri Ramanuja Acharyya a Vaishnava?

 

 

Vaisnavas are not to be so tightly stereotyped. Some preach some do not.

Sri Ramanuja Acharyya wrote that even if you could prove that a person (God) created this universe, it wouldn't necessarily mean that there might not be another universe somewhere else that was created by another god.

 

 

And we say this is actually the case and these god is called Brahma and other universes have there Brahma's as well. But then we say beyond all these Brahma's there is Govinda, the Primeval Lord, the one Cause of all causes. We say there is no limited to Krsna's manifested universes. So that objection is not very strong in my view.

I am taking your word for it that Ramanuja made such an argument for I don't know anything about him myself.

 

 

So acording to Sri Ramanuja Acharyya it is meaningless to try and assert that God created the world and that everyone must follow the scriptures that God gave to the world, since everyone will follow there own nature anyway - some having faith and love for God and others being indifferent to God and following the dictates of their desires. [/quote

 

Well I see that Srila Prabhupada has done exactly that and I would not call his work meaningless. Krsna means all-attractive. He can attract the minds of all through their own interests. The artist can learn to appreciate and approach Krsna through art. The musician through music. The warrior through war and the empirical scientist through his own scientific observations.

 

Jivas can be influenced to change directions. That is marginal energy. not that once a life direction is set in motion it can never be altered. No by force of course but through intelligence and attraction to God. Supersoul does that and if we are fortunate He will engage us in the process of drawing jivas towards Him.

 

 

 

Yes, so? If someone is dead set against accepting God leave him be. There are plenty that are innocent in that they are undecided, the honest agnostics, so we can speak to them.

 

 

 

I disagree. I believe we should preach it vigorously. But that doesn't mean speaking to walls of dead stone. Find the innocent.

 

Are you suggesting that Krishna does not empower preachers and that such empowered preaching is somehow not Bhakti?

In the Bible PauL say, " Even now there are many anti-christs among you. The anti-christ is he who denies the Father and Son.

Materialists are anti-christs.

impersonalists are anti-christs.

Ninth night and still counting. Muslims used to know how to create and now it seems they can only destroy.

900 cars set ablaze last night.

Yes we must all work to see that Prabhupada's teaching don't get sunk in the pond of mundane religious sectarianism. The lotus grows above the murky water.

If you don't read here how can you really comment in a wise way?

 

 

"Here" is not the only source of information. I don't claim wisdom, I only claim to be opinonated.

In another string I see that you say you only browsed Prabhupada's books - yet you were posting like some expert on sannyas!?

 

 

One can read Prabhupada's books 10 hours a day for fifty years and still be a browser by virtue of limited realization.

No offense - but I think you might be in too much passion - like a bee going from flower to flower - never more than a moment anywhere - this isn't good for spiritual life.

 

 

Yes you are undoubtly correct. My mind is very fickle. My only hope is that I land on flowers filled with Krishna nectar. If so then what's the harm?

Why have you decided not to respond?

 

 

I need nectar. Such controversies have occupied too much of my mind in the recent years and I am now changing directions. I still post on the World Review board but drawn out debates on this stuff is a waste of time for me.

Have you any comments about the point of this thread?

 

 

To be honest I haven't really followed it. I read a few posts and decided not to respond. Plugging in to the Israeli vs. Palestinian conflict would lead nowhere.

Sometimes we are presented with extraordinary options in this world and perhaps none of them are anything we care to do.

Ever see that movie where Tom Cruise is playing a lawyer and cross examining Jack Nicholson who is playing some base commander or something in Guantanamo. I fogot the name of it. Anyway Cruise demands the truth and Nicholson retorts "You can't handle the truth!" A lot of truth in that.

These sort of impossibly tough options are being played out in various forms everyday. We criticize freely from our relatively safe positions but when the hypothetical question appears before us we can' handle even that.

You would rather see a nuclear bomb detonated in a major city than torture the truth from one man who has the knowledge to stop it but won't give it up all in the name of fair play. OK. I would torture him for the knowledge to save the residences of the city.

That just shows our different perspectives.

Setting off a nuclear bomb or bio-terroism is also sick. So it's a choice sick or sicker. The planet is sick.

You can tell the antagonists to stop fighting at sundown then quit and party together, and oh yeah using the mace below the waist is against the rules because it's not vedic all you like but I don't think anyone will listen.

Good luck.

Listening to the radio this morning I heard our ex-president Jimmy Carter give an interview. He is out peddling his new book.

He stated that he was a reborn evangelical Christian. The Intelligent Design came up. He blames those promoting ID as the cause of the discord in public schools between those teaching science which doesn't speak of God and those that want to acknowledge the Lord as the Creator of all that be.

He mention that on one hand he believed in God but on the other he was trained as a nuclear scientist and he insists religion has no place in science.

This is the position of the fool. And this man was president. Leader of hundreds of millions.

This position seems impossible for me to imagine. If you accept God as being behind the creation how can you possibly divorce Him from the actions of creation?

We casn notice that Srila Prabhupada often spoke of the science of Krishna consciousness. Krishna consciousness is not just some sentimental state of mind that old ladies experience on Sunday morning or before bingo.

Grow up you whining whankers.

Hmmmm....unintelligent design. Something to think about...or not.

"The bats drink the blood of other mammals while they are asleep."

OMG! What nightmare have we drempt ourselves into?

TRANSLATION

My Lord, You are the observer of all the objectives of the senses. Without Your mercy, there is no possibility of solving the problem of doubts. The material world is just like a shadow resembling You. Indeed, one accepts this material world as real because it gives a glimpse of Your existence.

PURPORT

To paraphrase this verse: "The objectives of sensual activities are actually observed by You. Without Your direction, the living entity cannot take even a step forward. As confirmed in Bhagavad-gita (15.15), sarvasya caham hridi sannivishto mattah smritir jnanam apohanam ca. You are situated in everyone's heart, and only from You come remembrance and forgetfulness. Chayeva yasya bhuvanani bibharti durga [bs. 5.44]. The living entity under the clutches of maya wants to enjoy this material world, but unless You give him directions and remind him, he cannot make progress in pursuing his shadowy objective in life. The conditioned soul wrongly progresses toward the wrong objective, life after life, and he is reminded of that objective by You. In one life the conditioned soul desires to progress toward a certain objective, but after his body changes, he forgets everything. Nonetheless, my Lord, because he wanted to enjoy something of this world, You remind him of this in his next birth. Mattah smritir jnanam apohanam ca [bg. 15.15]. Because the conditioned soul wants to forget You, by Your grace You give him opportunities, life after life, by which he can almost perpetually forget You. Therefore You are eternally the director of the conditioned souls. It is because You are the original cause of everything that everything appears real. The ultimate reality is Your Lordship, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. I offer my respectful obeisances unto You."

The word sarva-pratyaya-hetave is explained by Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura, who says that a result gives one a glimpse of its cause. For example, since an earthen pot is the result of the actions of a potter, by seeing the earthen pot one can guess at the existence of the potter. Similarly, this material world resembles the spiritual world, and any intelligent person can guess how it is acting. As explained in Bhagavad-gita, mayadhyakshena prakritih suyate sa-caracaram [bg. 9.10]. The activities of the material world suggest that behind them is the superintendence of the Lord.

Take this scenario. A nuclear device has been smuggled into New York or Delhi by Al-Qaeda. One of the terrorist captured knows the specifics of when and where it is to be deteonated. Personally if I was a terrorist hunter by job description. I would skin that sucker alive one inch at a time until he talked.

were very nice.

Let me ask a question that as someone who is a more or less an outsider it may be easier.

Since formal sannyasa was introduced by Bhaktisiddhanta to fulfill a particular social need in that time and place (I believe) then is it possible that that same situation may not exist in the west today and thus should be let go of?

Just asking.

Happy to be of some service.

Hare Krishna

Chirac Appeals for Calm as Paris Suburbs Endure Sixth Night of Violence

Wednesday, November 02, 2005

PARIS — French President Jacques Chirac (search), intervening after six nights of rioting in housing projects outside Paris, called Wednesday for calm and said authorities will use a firm hand to curtail what may become a "dangerous situation."

The violence, sparked initially by the deaths of two Arab teenagers, has exposed the despair, anger and deep-rooted criminality in poor suburbs, where police hesitate to venture and which have proved fertile terrain for Islamic extremists.

"The law must be applied firmly and in a spirit of dialogue and respect," Chirac said at a Cabinet meeting. "The absence of dialogue and an escalation of a lack of respect will lead to a dangerous situation."

Chirac's remarks were passed on to reporters by government spokesman Jean-Francois Cope.

The rioting, which spread Tuesday night to at least nine Paris-region towns, has exposed rifts in Chirac's government, with Interior Minister Nicolas Sarkozy — a potential 2007 presidential candidate — being criticized for his tough talk and police tactics.

It also has renewed debate about France's failure to fully integrate its millions of immigrants, many of whom are trapped in poverty and grinding unemployment, living in low-cost, sometimes decrepit, suburban housing projects where gangs dealing drugs and stolen goods sometimes are in control.

That Chirac intervened personally was a measure of the crisis. He acknowledged the "profound frustrations" of troubled neighborhoods but said violence was not the answer and that efforts must be stepped up to combat it.

"Zones without law cannot exist in the republic," the French leader said.

In Tuesday night's clashes, riot police fired rubber bullets at advancing gangs of Muslim youths in Aulnay-sous-Bois (search), where 15 cars were burned, officials said. Youths lobbed Molotov cocktails at an annex to the town hall and threw stones at the firehouse. It was not immediately clear whether there were any injuries.

Interior Minister Nicolas Sarkozy (search) told Europe-1 radio that police detained 34 people overnight.

Sarkozy — blamed by many for fanning the violence with his "zero-tolerance" approach to suburban crime — defended his approach and vowed to restore calm. He recently called rioters "scum" and vowed to "clean out" troubled suburbs.

Housing projects to the north and northeast of Paris are heavily populated by North African Muslim immigrants.

Because of the unrest, Prime Minister Dominique de Villepin (search) delayed a three-day visit to Canada due to start Wednesday, and Sarkozy canceled a visit to Pakistan and Afghanistan planned to begin Sunday.

In unrest Tuesday night, rioters burned 228 cars throughout France, police said. Some 153 of those were in the Seine-Saint-Denis (search) area north of Paris, where the rioting began.

The rioting began Thursday in the northeastern suburb of Clichy-sous-Bois (search) after the electrocutions of two teenagers hiding in a power substation because they believed police were chasing them.

Officials have said police were not pursuing the boys, aged 17 and 15.

Villepin met Tuesday evening with the parents of the three families, promising a full investigation of the deaths and insisting on "the need to restore calm."

There was a heavy police presence in Clichy-sous-Bois, which had its first calm night Tuesday since the riots began. Mayor Claude Dilain said it was "not yet a victory, because we all have the feeling that this calm could be precarious."

"If French society accepts that there are tinderboxes within its borders, it can't be surprised when they explode," he said.

In the northeastern suburb of Bondy (search), 14 cars were burned and four people arrested for throwing stones at police, authorities said.

http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/madhya/15/en

CC Madhya 15.108: "One does not have to undergo initiation or execute the activities required before initiation. One simply has to vibrate the holy name with his lips. Thus even a man in the lowest class [candala] can be delivered.

CC Madhya 15.109: "By chanting the holy name of the Lord, one dissolves his entanglement in material activities. After this, one becomes very much attracted to Krishna, and thus dormant love for Krishna is awakened.

CC Madhya 15.110: "'The holy name of Lord Krishna is an attractive feature for many saintly, liberal people. It is the annihilator of all sinful reactions and is so powerful that, save for the dumb who cannot chant it, it is readily available to everyone, including the lowest type of man, the candala. The holy name of Krishna is the controller of the opulence of liberation, and it is identical with Krishna. When a person simply chants the holy name with his tongue, immediate effects are produced. Chanting the holy name does not depend on initiation, pious activities or the purascarya regulative principles generally observed before initiation. The holy name does not wait for any of these activities. It is self-sufficient.'"

The above link will take you to chapter CC Madhya chapter 15. Then you can scroll down the verses and see these words of Mahaprabhu Caitanya in context.

The individual verses will be underlined and highlighted in green. Click on one of those and you will go to a commentary on each verse by Srila Prabhupada.

SYNONYMS

diksha—initiation; purascarya—activities before initiation; vidhi—regulative principles; apeksha—reliance on; na—not; kare—does; jihva—the tongue; sparse—by touching; a-candala—even the lowest of men, the candala; sabare—everyone; uddhare—delivers.

TRANSLATION Caitanya Charitamrita Madhya 15.108

“One does not have to undergo initiation or execute the activities required before initiation. One simply has to vibrate the holy name with his lips. Thus even a man in the lowest class [candala] can be delivered.

One doesn't require to undergo and purifying processes before he can chant Hare Krsna. Altough we all start chanting in the most impure state the chanting of the Holy Name itself will make us eligible for more purifying chanting by purifying us.

The vidhi or regulative principles will help us advance at a much faster rate. As such they are considered adjuncts to the Hare Krishna chanting.

Primarily four are concentrated on as do nots.

1. Do not eat meat.

2.Do not take intoxicants.

3.Do not have illict sex.

4. Don't gamble.

It is something like saying one should not pour water on the wood he is trying to light as a fire.

But even if you are still doing any of the four or all of them, you still have the freedom and should chant Hare Krsna.

but in your vision what is the real basis of the acceptance of Sannyas in this day and age of quarrel ?

 

 

In essence it is the same in this age as any other, *exhaustion* with material life. Sannyas is a civil death. Dying to the old material life and taking rebirth into the divine.

As to the specifics of the Indian or vedic style of sannyasa I don't see it as very practical at least in the west but some form of monk life as a renunciate would always seem appropriate.

But I really dislike the idea of making formal petition to a church body for permission to taking up the renunciates lifestyle.

As far as having only browsed Prabhupada's books that is all I have done. But even from that cursory reading I get a clear picture that Iskcon's present system misses the mark widely.

Perhaps now you will let me know your answer to the same question you posed to me.

No way out but by the Lord's mercy.

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SB 8.2.27: By the arrangement of providence, O King, a strong crocodile was angry at the elephant and attacked the elephant's leg in the water. The elephant was certainly strong, and he tried his best to get free from this danger sent by providence.

SB 8.2.28: Thereafter, seeing Gajendra in that grave condition, his wives felt very, very sorry and began to cry. The other elephants wanted to help Gajendra, but because of the crocodile's great strength, they could not rescue him by grasping him from behind.

SB 8.2.29: O King, the elephant and the crocodile fought in this way, pulling one another in and out of the water, for one thousand years. Upon seeing the fight, the demigods were very surprised.

SB 8.2.30: Thereafter, because of being pulled into the water and fighting for many long years, the elephant became diminished in his mental, physical and sensual strength. The crocodile, on the contrary, being an animal of the water, increased in enthusiasm, physical strength and sensual power.

SB 8.2.31: When the King of the elephants saw that he was under the clutches of the crocodile by the will of providence and, being embodied and circumstantially helpless, could not save himself from danger, he was extremely afraid of being killed. He consequently thought for a long time and finally reached the following decision.

SB 8.2.32: The other elephants, who are my friends and relatives, could not rescue me from this danger. What then to speak of my wives? They cannot do anything. It is by the will of providence that I have been attacked by this crocodile, and therefore I shall seek shelter of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is always the shelter of everyone, even of great personalities.

SB 8.2.33: The Supreme Personality of Godhead is certainly not known to everyone, but He is very powerful and influential. Therefore, although the serpent of eternal time, which is fearful in force, endlessly chases everyone, ready to swallow him, if one who fears this serpent seeks shelter of the Lord, the Lord gives him protection, for even death runs away in fear of the Lord. I therefore surrender unto Him, the great and powerful supreme authority who is the actual shelter of everyone.

To live simply and think high. But simple living in today's world is made difficult.

Don't spend money on the trinkets of this world. Minimize as much compsumption as possible. Maximize time for higher engagment.

For someone who loves Krsna.

My so-called sadhana relies almost entirely on trying to inject God-consciousness into public debate and the minds of others.

Because my sadhana is so sporadic and weak I can't emphasize much more than trying to remember God and be appreciate of Him and obedient to Him.

But this helps me alot anyway. If I can help one jiva remember the Lord then the Lord in his heart, who is also the Lord in my heart, will be pleased with me.

On the flip side if I can't be bothered to help another then why should I expect continued help to come to me.

I make a very concentrated effort to not exceed my sphere when trying to share Krsihna consciousness. JNdas recently gave the example of it being one thing to point to the sun and another to actual journey to the sun planet. I am a pointer only. And as such I avoid trying to explain intimate rasa's with Krishna which coming from me would only cause confusion.

I stick to:

We are all spirit.

The Lord is the one Supreme Spirit.

We are dependent eternally upon Him.

We are part of Him and meant to love Him as our Dearmost Friend.

And etc.

I find that more than sufficient for me at this time.

We should remember that supporting preaching is also preaching.

Prabhupada made it clear that it was certainly his mood and alloted service to preach. So I can understand why his disciples place so much importance there.

Sure, why not? But the danger exists that the one writing the English or Russian bhajans may only have a creative talent for writing songs and not be in touch with the Lord in the proper mood.

No different then one becoming a "bhakti" scholar and philosopher on the strength of a Phd. in sanskrit studies from Harvard.

Srila Prabhupada has already solved that problem though through his translations. If someone has talent put them to simple tunes and arrangements. Emphasis on simple.

I never would have pictured her at a Krsna temple for some reason. I guess a viewed her as a typical Southern Baptist type.

So has always been a heroine figure to me for her quite refusal to preserve her human dignity in the way she did, now even more so.

Power for change can come in small packages. Look at the atom. The energy just needs proper release.