Gaea

Our Father who art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Krsna, EVERYBODY'S father, is indeed in Vrndavana - hallowed is His name Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done, Nothing happens without His will, not even a blade of grass in the wind can move without Him. On earth as it is in heaven. Wow, yes! The material world is a reflection of the spiritual world (only a skewed reflection). Give us this day our daily bread; And forgive us our debts, As we also have forgiven our debtors; Let us be free of karma? And lead us not into temptation, Don't let us be lead away by sense gratification. But deliver us from evil. BE OUR SAVIOUR

Haha, just shave off that dodgy hair cut and put a pony tail on it - i KNEW it, all Vulcans are undercover Vaishnavas!

Evolution is process that is driven only when there is a selection pressure. If there is no selection pressure you either get small changes with no disadvantageous phenotype or consistency.

Perhaps our translation of the word "unverse" (from the sanskrit) is wrong. Perhaps Vyas was actually referring to the solar system?

Well it's not really devolution - more of a relaxation of selection pressure. There's no incentive to evolve, so genetic variation that has no apparent disadvantage is allowed to persist.

yes that is the case - it is confused. We can see in isolated ecological systems that species have "let down their guards" due to a lack of selection pressure. A good example is flightless birds.

It's great that you have mentioned punctuated equilibrium, which is a theory of no/little genetic change (i.e. no evolution of species). In fact, the current thinking in evolution is a mix of both punctuated equilibrium and phyletic gradualism. In this theory species are constantly undergoing small changes in genomes that have no specific change in phenotype. Slection pressure and other minor changes might cause catastrophic or noticeable phenotypic change (i.e. large jumps). Look on the wikipedia site for scientifc papers thta illustrate this.

Thank you. As ever, i find such a wonderful source of wisdom on this forum through lovely devotees!

I don't know whether Prajapatis or other "aliens" propogated evolutionary explosions but i think it is clear that there is some "mechanism" in place. I have always liked to believe it is divine will, acting through the laws of physics, but i don't think it's so far-fetched that off-world forces are at play. The notion that they may have started this billions of years ago is intriguing - again, no far-fetched in my opinion. Sounds pretty star-trekkie.

Small changes is exactly what evolution is about. Gradual changes eventually lead to a leap. Because they don't need to. But you will find MOST bacteria will have changed, especially the ones that have adapted in symbiosis with larger creatures - such as the bacteria in your own gut. yep. No, not appear - evolve. By small changes. Just as you build a house brick by brick, in 12 months you'll have a huge house, which was quite different from the original brick. That's news to me. You can accelarate the rate of mutation and diversity though - for example, you can expose a bacterial culture to UV light, which increases the chances of mutation. I don't know where you're getting this info from, but it's not as easy as that. Even so, i'll argue the case tho... Plants have an extraordinary genome - they "suffer" from polyploidy and a whole host of genetic diseases and yet they persist and survive. If you expose them to such genotoxicity you will eventually get a situation where two plants cannot mate to produce fertile offspring. By the way, the definition of a species: Two organisms are of the same species if they can mate and produce fertile offspring. You can look up research into the oil-seed rape plant (aribidopsis thaliana) and tobacco plant for info in this area. Wow, yes, this is so true. It brings a tear to eye to think of this wonderful creation and how Krsna has concieved it with but a fraction of His intelligence. He indeed is in the evolutionary driving seat. No. Stop making stuff up. They have not given up that notion at all. Gradual change is a fundamental concept of evolution. p.s. i do not intend to tread on devotees beliefs with my comments - i am just putting across my view - so i apologise if i have offended anyone and pray for forgiveness!

Exactly

Yes, this is the horizontal gene transfer that i was talking about earlier. I specifically have not spoke about human evolution because that is one point that i personally contest myself.

Yes, it's true bacteria are ultimate survivalists. That does not disprove evolution though - bacteria continually evolve to suit their environment. In the last 100 years we have seen a catalogue of new bcteria and especially viruses that hve evolved to adapt to their human-made surroundings. A good example of this is HIV. Regarding your view starting "modern genetice..." : the one tenet of evolution that non-proponents of evolution will always attack is the one that is the most difficult to observe - cumulative variation and mutation into a new species (profoundly new, as you say) takes a very very long time. That's why we rely on fossils. But then, again, this will always be attacked and disputed, so there's nothing i could say to convince you. We'll just have to agree to disagree. On your point of intelligent design: i agree. There is an intelligence driving evolution, i believe. The mechanism, i believe, is evolution by gradual mutation/variational cumulation. Again, that is not inconsistent with Vaishanava belief system.

OK, it's your prerogative whether you would like to discuss this topic with an evolutionist like me but i'll argue the case anyway, seeing as this is a discussion forum. This is what i'm trying to communicate to you - perhaps i'm being podantic - but the way evolution is taught at school and university is that genetic variation (which INCLUDES mutation) and natural selection give rise the phenomenon. The conclusive proof can be found in bacteria, which undergo horizontal gene transfer (their version of sex). When a colony is exposed to an antobiotic, many bacteria die out because they are not resistant. But then either a mutation or horizontal transfer that results in novel pathways leads to a resistant strain - hence, the population has evolved to become resistant to the antibiotic. We see it in hospitals with the rise of superbugs. We see it in cancer, where tumours become resistant to therapy. And yes, we see it in nature also. Guys - evolution is a fact, not a theory. I just don't see why you feel so threatened by it. I am happily living my life devoted to God (i hope) and also in complete concordance with science. Why? Coz it's HIS science, not man's (or my) science - He created it, He manipulates it and it is HE who reveals it to us. Everything else is a mystery (and this is where atheists seem to trip over). Bottom line - there's nothing wrong with accepting evolution because the fact of evolution and the belief in God or Krsna are not mutually exclusive.

Err, no - What you just said, THAT is propoganda. Evolution of species into other species depends on both mutation and genetic diversity (i.e. a diverse gene pool).

That isn't propoganda. It is called micro-evolution because it is exactly what evolution is about. By the way, evolution isn't just mutation of genes - it is also mixing (i.e. breeding) - this, in effect, is the same as mutation because you bring random alleles together to form "better" phenotypes.

How? They are saying all that there is is God and ONLY God - no second, no jivas. There is only a High Power (not Higher, because there is nothing to be higher against) - or just a Power. This covers Theism, not atheism. It is not even veiled atheism because in atheism there is no Power whatsoever.

well said.

errr. It's theism. Believing in Brahman and mergence is a bona fide path. It might not be like honey for you, but accroding to spiritual level and karmic consequence, people are brought up in this discipline. When they get as "high" as Personalists, they will see the Dvaitya path. It's natural progression.

yes. but its not always a warm response

if they did, who would openly say it? the way most people, even devotees, are - they will just get chided - who would believe.

haha, good one

i actually read this story right here on this forum a couple of years ago. sorry can't be more specific than that!!

oh i see - yes i felt the same way!

Look at it this way - if you are suffering in your material life like you have described, does it not make you think of Krsna even more? Say you were successful, are you definately sure that you will remember Him as much as you remember Him when suffering? In this way Krsna slowly takes away your material life to increase your attachemnt to Him. Just like how he took away Narada's mother (when he was in a previous body) so that he could engage in devotional service. And even if this is not good enough, then try and try again. Don't give up. With faith you'll get far on the devotional path but for material life, you must constantly engage in continuous action to be successful. Good luck!