stonehearted

One more time: Where have I ever said that worship of Jesus is humbug. I've said that humbug "worship" of Jesus is humbug. But whatever you keep repeating I've said is not something I have ever said, here or elsewhere, and your repeating it doesn't make it so.

theist, I didn't say motivated prayer has no use at all. I said anything less than pure devotion has no real use. By that I meant ultimate or essential use. Of course, prayer motivated by selfish desire is better than none at all. (I think I already said that, too.) But it doesn't have anything to do with the soul's real relationship with God as servant. We begin or end many prayers with "namah," which means, according to Padma Purana, "not me."

One of my favorite perspectives on prayer comes from a Christian, or at least a play about a Christian, C. S. Lewis. In Shadowlands, after his wife's bone cancer goes into remission, one of Lewis' friends comments that God has answered his prayers. Lewis replies, "That's not why I pray, Harry. I pray because I can't help myself. I pray because I'm helpless. I pray because the need flows out of me all the time, waking and sleeping. It doesn't change God, it changes me."

Another of my favorite perspectives is from Bhaktivinoda Thakura's introduction to his Saranagati. He says there the Nanda's darling son hears the prayers of those who are engaged in the six-fold process of saranagati.That's what I'm talking about.

Ritvik, meanwhile a four-letter word. No, I talk of real knowledge - no I'm not confused but you're are either acting the fool or afflicted with blocked intelligence.

Well, the foolishness is no act.

If you say you believe in Jesus as great devotee of the Lord and say, no, Jesus cannot guide you from within (di) and absorb your sinful reactions (ksha) and thus giving diksha, you better join the camp of Jesus aparadhis.

But I've asked you to show me where I said that. In fact, I think I asserted just the opposite. In fact, my heart opening to the devotees back in 1969 seemed to me to be a direct response to my calling to God to help me understand what He is like and what my life should be about.

Not join, you were actually always right there. Acceptance of Lord Jesus Christ implies the understanding that it is only Lord Jesus who gives diksha and nobody else. Not the pope and not the priests. They are all ritiviks, officiating priests. In fact if anyone in the church claims of being on the level of Lord Jesus and sitting on Lord Jesus' vyasasana he is immediately excommunicated.

And I've already said I agree with that.

And you know it! So, you say, you believe that Lord Jesus is the son of God but you say he cannot give diksha?

Whatever you want to call it, I've never said that. And you apparently cannot show me where I have. You're arguing with a ghost, my friend. Have fun. I was going to issue a certificate of defeat, but I changed my mind. There is in fact no argument I can see here except with a figment of your imagination. Do with that whatever you like, and have fun.

When it comes to Prabhupada giving diksha you say, Prabhupada is dead and gone. When it comes to Lord Jesus you say, yes, Jesus Christ is so powerful, he can give spiritual diksha?

Suchandra may have you mixed in with all the Christ haters that find there way onto this board and the confused iskconites who are trying to follow their concocted idea of parampara.

Well, as you know, I often have less patience than would be ideal for folks with some sentimental ideas of who Jesus was (or is), but I have very little for those who come off as "Christ haters."

And I'm not much of an ISKCONite, either, I suppose. At least I have little faith in their understanding of guru-tattva, and less in their system of making sannyasis and gurus. But I do accept the principle of guru-parampara taught by Srila Prabhupada and all of our acharyas. You and I have misunderstood each other on that issue, too, so we probably understand each other better than many others do.

I have known you longer and know you are more of a free thinker and not a Christ hater by any means.

Thanks.

His points are correct though IMO. Especially on our need to separate Christ from present day Christianity like we sometimes need to separate Prabhupada's teaching from those that claim to represent him.

I think I've acknowledged this point. I could try to be more explicit, if anyone thinks they need it. But they may just be deliberately misreading what I've written here.

When it comes to Prabhupada giving diksha you say, Prabhupada is dead and gone. When it comes to Lord Jesus you say, yes, Jesus Christ is so powerful, he can give spiritual diksha?

Well, now I can see you're confused. Somehow you've mixed some sort of ritvik thing in here, but I don't see where it comes from. I've never said Jesus can give diksa. I have acknowledged on many occasions, and quite happily, that he was a powerful spiritual teacher. I accepted him in my heart when I was 10. And I've never said Srila Prabhupada is dead and gone. He's very present in my life, and in ways I'd sure never share with you.

You seem not to have any idea who I am. I sure have no idea of who you are.

And when applied on Prabhupada immediately rejected - Lord Jesus can guide you from within and absorb your sins but Prabhupada cannot.

 

In other words, your so called Jesus glorification says, if we preach that Lord Jesus can give spiritual diksha we have no explanation whatsoever why Prabhupada cannot give diksha.

I was tempted to post a "Yep, you've outed me," but I have to say I fail to see how anything in this post has anything to do with anything I've posted.

Therefore we just say, "Jesus loves you", but understand secretly that Jesus is fantasy, illusion, hallucination.

Who says? And what? Maybe theist can explain all this to me.

This is rather a disappointing presentation and lacking differentation between present corrupted Christianity and Jesus Christ as characterized by the acaryas, as, "great devotee of the Lord".

Gee, I'm sorry you're disappointed. You must have missed my profession of admiration for real Christians, folk like Dorothy Day and Shane Claiborne. And my nod to the essence of Jesus' teachings. That's found in his instruction to love God with all our being and our neighbors as ourselves, and in his Sermon on the Mount. My problem is with what's presented as Christianity by churches.

Even Seventh-Day Adventist can explain how corruption entered the Church whereas Vaishnava institutions foolishly conclude, Jesus and present Christianity is projjhita, cheating religion.

Well, duh! I read a lot of Ellen G. White's stuff in the mid '70s, and I found much to admire in her thinking. You'll never be able to show where I've criticized Jesus or his teachings.

At least when studying the great acaryas' literarily essence we don't find this type of superficiality but instead adequate etiquette to address Lord Jesus not as cheater, but as bonafide son of God.

I've never said anywhere that Jesus is not a bona fide representative of God.

Looks like you were in the wrong place Babhru? Sorry you had such a negative experience.

I was exactly where I needed to be. I had a need to understand God that could be filled only by Srimad-Bhagavatam, nothing less. And when I found it I was ready.

I suppose in some ways I am lucky I had no contact with oraganized religion (being an atheist) and thus no negative experiences to be bitter about.

Bitter? Hell, I'm grateful. I got what I needed from them, and when I asked hard questions directly of my pastors, at least they didn't lie. That doesn't mean I didn't see through pretense of what the Bhagavatam calls kaitava dharma. As Krishna das Kaviraja says,

The darkness of ignorance is called kaitava, the way of cheating, which begins with religiosity, economic development, sense gratification and liberation.

I see in Prabhupada's teaching a very broadminded understanding of spiritual life as well as an honest appreciation for even the slightest move towards God from any soul regardless of religious affiliation as shown in the quote below.

Yes, honest appreciation for any move toward God in order to show us what real movement toward the Godhead is. The first thing I learned from him is that Krishna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. The second is that anything less than pure devotion to Krishna has no real use.

Well how about the sukriti that comes from prayer, or bowing down before the representative of God?

What prayer? "God, give me something to eat"? It's better than nothing, I guess, but you might want to check Srila Prabhupada's response to that. Even though I thought about it, even prayed about it, when I was young, I had no clue how to pray until I read chapter 8 of the Bhagavatam's first canto.

Bow down? I grew up in the Methodist Church, went to a Presbyterian Church for a couple of years (until their anti-Catholic teachings in Sunday school freaked me out), and to an Episcopal church when I was a teenager. No one taught me to bow down to anyone. When I was seven, I asked our minister what God was like. He was not only stumped, but flabbergasted to encounter such a question. No one could tell us what it means to love God with all your heart and your neighbor as yourself. But tithing, well, they understood that.

I was inherently religious from as far back as I can remember (well, maybe spiritual--I don't know), but I got nothing but cheating religion until I met Prabhupada's disciples in 1969. It was a great relief to find, in the second verse of the Bhagavatam, that cheating religion is the first thing we reject.

There are Christians whom I respect, who seem to have grasped the spirit of Jesus' teachings. But they're few and far between, especially in the churches.

Since there would be today no Vaishnavism possible in the West without Abrahamic pioneer work,

Oh, has this been established as fact? I wasn't aware of that. What sort of sukriti could be created by eating the flesh of poor, slaughtered animals, especially cows?

The only way I could support a boycot is after seeing the movie. Otherwise I wouldn't know what I was boycotting. A massive boycot will create more curiosity.

You may not be aware of the meaning of the word boycott. It means, in this case, to join together in not going to see the film. Now, yours is certainly a reasonable approach to protesting the film. But organizing a boycott means getting masses of potential viewers to refuse to see the film and thereby refuse to give their money to the producers and distributers. I'm sure they'd be delighted if you (and the rest of us here and elsewhere) spent $10 to see the flick, then wrote letters to the editor screaming about how anti-religious it is. That would arouse even more curiosity and fan ticket sales.

Sunanda, do take the manjaris and offer them to your Deities. I prefer to cut them while they're tender. (In Sri Chaitanya-charitamrita, Lord Chaitanya gives Raghunath das Goswami his own Govardhana-shila, advising him to worship it with eight tender manjaris [komala-manjari]). After you do so, you'll also probably see that Tulasi-devi will produce more leaves and branches.

The best temperature is probably between 70 and 80 F. Water every two or three days, depending more or less on the humidity in the room. Don't keep the soil wet, but don't let it get too dry, either. Every week or two, use a good organic fertilizer to keep her fed and growing. (I always liked cow-manure tea).

I would suggest asking your spiritual master. Generally, the process for worshipping salagrama-shilas is rather involved, with pretty high standards. Your worship is best guided by your guru, who should be able to help you with all these details.

Is the goal of your life getting "inititated," or becoming Krishna conscious? If it's the former, by all means show up at the Narayana Maharaja festival and pick up a name. I've seen many people get intiated by him with little or no apparent impression on their spiritual lives, even after many years.

Becoming Krishna conscious means developing an attitude of service, which is the basis of all the bhavas of Vraja. What you need is to find association that awakens that setvice attitude in your heart and inspires you to take up sadhana in a way that will cultivate that attitude. I don't know if that's likely to happen among the ISKCON devotees where you are, and I don't know if there are followers of NM who can do that for you there. But I'm with Bija--don't be in a hurry, and don't think it's about you. It's about making the most substantial connection with Lord Chaitanya. Take your time, be honest and introspective, find good company, and have fun.

On our far right is Indradyumna Swami, and next to him is Sivarama Swami. I don't know the others.

What was the effect of the vision on your understanding, and on your faith?

BTW: Cool name. When I taught at Southwestern College in Chula Vista, CA, I had two or three students named Xochitl. It's one of my favorite "material-world " names.

How does Stephen Knapp know Srila Prabhupada is a Manjari?

 

Srila Prabhupada never said "I am a Manjari" or "I am a Gopi" did he?

 

Mental speculation... That is what Prabhupada calls this sort of thing.

No, there's no evidence he ever said such a thing. However, he did say on several occasions that he is a cowherd boy. And in the early days it was a common understanding that this is the case. There's a wealth of evidence pointing in that direction.

It is very true indeed,just as Vrndavan is nondifferent from the SUpreme Lord so also the lord's parikar is non diffrent from Him.I have heard That Srila Prabhupada is Ananga Manjari herself.

You pple should broadcast this fact to others...Many "followers" of other sampradyas doubt ISKCON's line of succession.

Good grief! Where did you hear that? I'll tell you this: you'll find no evidence to support it in anything Srila Prabhupada said or wrote. I've researched the issue, and the evidence clearly points elsewhere.

I'll tell you one more thing. The title of this thread is misleading. You'll not find EVERY letter Srila Prabhupada ever wrote in the VedaBase or anywhere else. Many, many letters are not there.

Pretty cool. Thanks. (I guess this was for 3 1/2 audaryians.)

Jesucristo! ISKCON has blown $15 million so far on this? I remember that, just after Srila Prabhupada's disappearance, my wife, one-uear-old daughter, andI, along with our friends Tarun Kanti and Sunari and their toddler son, went out collecting door to door around Honolulu for Srila Prabhupada's samadhi. And how long (and how many dollars) did it take to get that built? Boy, what a mess.

Follow the Angels is a wonderful book. I eagerly second your recommendation.

Srila Prabhupada: I very much want, Maharaja, that you come and stay at Mayapura. Because Prabhupada always desired that you preach. He told me quite a few times, "Why don't you pull him out?" [They both laugh.] You know, I also tried to some extent before, but somehow or other it did not work out. Now, why don't you come and stay at Mayapura?

Srila Sridhara Maharaja: At last Prabhupada told me: "You are an ease-lover. [Laughter] The qualifications - that you have."

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, that's true. He told me also, "He is such a qualified person. Sridhara Maharaja is one of the finest preachers." I want to take you everywhere. At least at the place we have in Mayapura, people are coming from all over the world. Why don't you come and stay there? What is your objection to staying in Mayapura? If you just agree, then whatever kind of building you want, I will arrange it for you. They are trying to build a house for me, so both of us will stay there. And whenever you want, you can come here [to his Navadwipa math].

Srila Sridhara Maharaja: Yes, as long as I am alive to fulfill Prabhupada's desire.

Srila Prabhupada: This is my earnest desire. Since you could not go around the world and preach, at least stay there and people will come to you. I shall make that arrangement. And if you stay there, then it will be very helpful to me also. Sometimes I need to consult with someone but there is no one. There is no one with whom I can consult. I feel this deficiency very greatly.

Devotee: If he stays in Mayapura, then all kinds of people will get to hear from him.

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, that's right.

Srila Sridhara Maharaja: Yes, people from all kinds of cultural backgrounds will come there.

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, they are already coming. And in that house I will make arrangements for an elevator so that you won't have to go through the difficulty of walking up and down the stairs. You won't even have to move a step yourself. I'll make arrangements for a car and a lift. Jayapataka Maharaja is telling me that he will build a house for me. So both of us will stay in that house. Most of the time I am just traveling around, so if you are there, then they can get some guidance. So Maharaja, please-give me the order and I will make all the arrangements for you.

I getcha, mahak. It was a really big deal for me to get down here. We are entirely off the grid, out in da country, running on micro-hydro and gravity-flow water. It's good, especially when everything works. But family ties also tug.

I'm not so surprised that you saw Sudama with Prabhupada. That's how Prabhupada is: grateful for whatever service we offered. That's our hope.

As one of the editors of the first project connected with publishing Srila Prabhupada's letters, I think it's well to inject a word of caution. Someone has already mentioned the confidential nature of many of the letters. I'd also like to point out that, at least for a good many of these letters, the context is not often clear. An instruction given to one disciple on a particular day, in response to a specifice question or situation, may be quite different from that given to another disciple in another context. So read and enjoy, but don't get too carried away.