sumedh

Hare Krishna

 

Dear Roohani Sevadhari

 

you said:

 

have also stated that unlike the belief in the bhaktimarg, God says that souls cannot change their yoni or species from one birth to another. They experience pleasures (sukh) and pains (dukh) in the same species at different times of the world drama cycle.

 

 

 

First off, don't attribute silly ideas to god. So talk about "according to lekhraj siddhanta" -- okay. Rest of reply has got to do nothing with the original question.

 

It seems that your answer is that after some 5000 years all animals merge into god. Is it correct?

dear roohani sevadhari

 

you said:

 

A soul is like a trident, consisting of three parts- mind, intellect and resolves. Mind and resolves are the spikes on the right and left hand, whereas the intellect is the spike in the middle, slightly longer and more important than the other two spikes.

 

The above paragraph is only comparing the mind, intellect and resolves with the three spikes of a trident and do not mean that the mind, intellect and resolves are shaped like that. Neither soul nor supreme soul can be seen through the naked eyes, they can only be realized within.

 

 

 

which i understood perfectly well. My comment was that mind/intellect is physical in nature which has got to do nothing with the soul. btw it can be easily shown by logic that mind/intellect is physical in nature.

Dear Roohani sevadhari

 

you said:

 

I have already explained that as per the knowledge given to us by God Shiva this world drama cycle of 5000 years is not full of miseries. Half of this kalpa, i.e. 2500 years (i.e. Satyug and Tretayug) is purely peace and prosperity, with no rakshasas or vices.

 

 

 

What is this up with 5000 years? Read any archeology findings of late? For example a 7000 year old temple found in Mallesvaram, or old writings in Harappa dating back to 3500BC.

 

Unfortunately, you dodged the question again as to why this "drama". Is the question too difficult to understand?

 

Important questions you should ask yourself is the foundation of your believe. Seems to me like history as in British India time; so if it changes (which it has already) then what would be the status of your faith? Other question is whether your belief system stands and falls on the integrity of one person.

 

The dear roohani sevadhari on godly service goes off to tangents as regards this thread without giving answers to previous questions, such as how do the hallucinations of Lekhraj which conflict with all scriptures have any authority.

 

He has simply stated that Srila Prabhupada is not considered to be God by ISKCON. They consider only Lord Krishna to be God. But the learned guest has conveniently ignored to reply as to why no picture of Shri Krishna appears on the main page of this website and why Srila Prabupada's picture has replaced Shri Krishna. It only shows that the followers of ISKCON give more importance to their Guru than to their God. Guru is important, but is it at the cost of God? Who is the actual giver, bestower? Is it the Guru or God?

 

 

 

Please dont try discussing about the guru-tattva, for you do not consider any pramanas. But remaining on point, many iskcon sites have Lord Krishna at the front page while this has that of Srila Prabhupada. You have issues with this ... right. Well, not everyone can be satisfied, still you may want to communicate your feelings to the site administrator.

 

 

My learned friend or other followers have also not replied to my humble querry as to how Shri Krishna got the title of Lord. Who conferred that title upon Him and when? Will anyone kindly clarify?

 

 

 

which is another tangent. Your learned friend does not consider your childish objections to have any relevance but still would respond to it due to other reasons. The learned friend prefers to call Lord Krishna because it indicates Master of the self as opposed to God which has the majesty factor predominant; others may have other reasons -- same is the case with Shri Krishna for Shri is the name of Goddess Lakshmi which indicates opulence etc. the attributes of Goddess Lakshmi. At other places the learned friend also writes Shri Krishna depending on context.

 

The learned friend would like to know if roohani sevadhari on godly service of some god, considers any pramanas as valid. Does he consider vedas, or the brahma-sutra or srimad-bhagavatam as pramanas because there needs some common ground for discussion.

Hare Krishna

 

 

 

1. You said: “The main point here is from where does Dada Lekhraj derive his authority? I can also imagine all kinds of things and write them down; so will you agree them to be coming from God” ------- First of all the knowledge being propagated by the Brahmakumaris (BKs) and the followers of Adhyatmik Ishwariya Vishwavidyalay (i.e. PBKs) is not imaginary but based on the knowledge given to them by the incorporeal God Shiva, who enters into an ordinary human being to purify all the souls. The incorporeal God Shiva entered into Dada Lekhraj for many years until his demise in 1969 and after that the incorporeal God Shiva has been entering into another human medium to complete the task of world transformation that remained unfinished through Dada Lekhraj.

 

 

 

Yes, Lord Shiva also entered me ... Please realize that this is nothing more than sentimentalism.

 

You said:

 

 

As regards the knowledge being given by God to the PBKs being imaginary is concerned I would like to say that it is more compatible with science and history than the knowledge given by any other religion. I would not take examples from other religions, but will quote only from Hindu scriptures. There is mention of various deities with thousand arms, 8 arms, four arms, three eyes etc. Then there was Ravana with 10 heads. All kinds of imaginary demons, which nobody has ever seen. Scriptures say that deities live in a heaven that exists above the sky. And that there is a land of demons in the paataal lok. Scientists have traveled far and wide in the universe but could not find life anywhere. Neither does life exist beneath the earth beyond a certain level. So where do all these deities exist? Had they existed in the past then there should have been their progeny with similar physical features. But we have not heard of any surviving human beings with such physical features, leave alone performing any miracles for the benefit of the humanity. Actually, all these pictures of deities and the stories of wars between deities and demons have spiritual meanings and did not take place actually in the history of mankind. These spiritual meanings of the mythological figures and stories are being explained now by God Himself.

 

 

 

And before you said about Harappan civilization and Mahabharata. Seriously, are you still living in British India? The latest excavations have shown the Harappan civilization to be far older than thought previously, and shaligram shilas have been found. In addition the discovery of ancient Dwarka off-shore also provides the necessary evidence. Hint: update yourself on the latest situation.

 

 

 

Neither Dada Lekhraj nor the present medium of God claim to be medium of God, but I would like to know, which authority or scripture has given you the authority to reprimand anyone? Nobody except God Father has the power to reprimand anyone, especially on spiritual matters. I wish to humbly know if you claim to be God or the representative of God authorized to reprimand fellow human beings?

 

 

 

Yes, the scriptures tell the devotees to reprimand those who are lost for their own good. If one has obtained even a little fortune, then he must distribute it to others and reprimand is one of those ways. As for myself, i cannot be such a fraud to claim to be god or representative of god as others.

 

From Srimad-Bhagavatam 4.14.32

 

 

nayam arhaty asad-vritto

naradeva-varasanam

yo 'dhiyajna-patim vishnum

vinindaty anapatrapah

 

 

TRANSLATION

 

The saintly sages continued: This impious, impudent man does not deserve to sit on the throne at all. He is so shameless that he even dared insult the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Lord Vishnu.

 

PURPORT

 

One should not at any time tolerate blasphemy and insults against Lord Vishnu or His devotees. A devotee is generally very humble and meek, and he is reluctant to pick a quarrel with anyone. Nor does he envy anyone. However, a pure devotee immediately becomes fiery with anger when he sees that Lord Vishnu or His devotee is insulted. This is the duty of a devotee. Although a devotee maintains an attitude of meekness and gentleness, it is a great fault on his part if he remains silent when the Lord or His devotee is blasphemed.

 

 

 

 

From Srimad-Bhagavatam 4.14.34

 

 

ittham vyavasita hantum

rishayo rudha-manyavah

nijaghnur hunkritair venam

hatam acyuta-nindaya

 

 

TRANSLATION

 

The great sages, thus manifesting their covert anger, immediately decided to kill the King. King Vena was already as good as dead due to his blasphemy against the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Thus without using any weapons, the sages killed King Vena simply by high-sounding words.

 

 

 

 

Then in Srimad-Bhagavatam 4.4.17

 

 

karnau pidhaya nirayad yad akalpa ise

dharmavitary asrinibhir nribhir asyamane

chindyat prasahya rusatim asatim prabhus cej

jihvam asun api tato visrijet sa dharmah

 

TRANSLATION

 

Sati continued: If one hears an irresponsible person blaspheme the master and controller of religion, one should block his ears and go away if unable to punish him. But if one is able to kill, then one should by force cut out the blasphemer's tongue and kill the offender, and after that one should give up his own life.

 

 

 

So one should cut the others arguments by arguments from the accepted pramanas.

 

you said:

 

 

In this connection I would like to say that there are hundreds of Acharyas and gurus who claim to have realized God. So is God omnipresent? And if God is in fact giving knowledge through so many God-realized Acharyas, then why is the world witnessing downfall? If the same God is present in all the Acharyas then why is there the difference of opinion?

 

 

 

Not all acharyas and gurus are genuine, and the same can be applied to Dada Lekhraj anyways -- so whats your point? The test of a genuine guru is the adherence to the Vedic siddhanta, the disciplic succession and most of all our own sincerity which helps us to recognize a true acharya. So far your judging of Lekhraj as god (or empowered by god) is nothing more than sentimentalism. As for the differences in acharyas, it is due to the nature of time, place and circumstances. As i said, this is off-topic and should be in a separate thread where i would be happy to provide the reasons with pramanas.

 

 

 

When the human beings get reformed or purified, then the animal species also get purified automatically. You must have seen that earlier the Sanyasis used to live more in the jungles amidst ferocious animals without any fear, but since a few centuries, the sanyasis have also lost their power of spirituality and hence have come into the cities and live luxurious lives. The feuds and murders that take place in the various ashrams of Hindu pilgrimage centres are world famous.

 

 

 

Cut the .. Tell me what becomes of animals and will they forever remain in the material worlds. And don't present silly things as coming from Lord Shiva.

 

 

 

A soul is like a trident, consisting of three parts- mind, intellect and resolves. Mind and resolves are the spikes on the right and left hand, whereas the intellect is the spike in the middle, slightly longer and more important than the other two spikes.

 

 

 

Well not really, soul has got to do nothing with matter.

 

you said:

 

 

All the souls and the supreme Soul Shiva live in the soul world situated beyond the sun, moon and the universe. Just as actors come on to the stage wearing different kinds of clothes and make-up, similarly souls enter into this world drama stage (earth) and assume human bodies or animal bodies as per their roles. This world drama which is of 5000 years as per God is divided into four ages – Satyug, Tretayug, Dwaparyug and Kaliyug.

 

 

 

No, the question is why do they perform this "drama" full of miseries. See this is not a kids forum where your ideas will pass by like that, you need to explain things.

 

 

 

When He himself is bound to enter this cycle to purify others (although he doesn’t take birth through a mother’s womb) then how can others get completely liberated from this cycle?

 

 

 

So much for your god.

 

 

 

4. Why do you think we need to follow any procedure to achieve the highest objective, and why does it take much time and energy? i.e. why does Lord not take all those who show an inclination into His family? -------this connection I would like to humbly say that God comes and establishes a home-cum-school-cum-spiritual hospital. He gives us knowledge step by step during the 100 years period of Purushottam Sangamyug beginning from 1936-37. Since this is a school (sachhi Geeta pathshala) where we live and study with our spiritual parents, we have to make efforts ourselves to become a deity. By imbibing this knowledge every Nar can become like a Narayan and every Naari can become like a Lakshmi. God says that unlike the bhaktimarg, He does not give any aashirwad (blessings) or vardaan (boons) but only shows the path to perfection and also gives the power to become perfect through easy Rajyoga. Whoever makes sincere efforts gives a boon to himself. Actually, all the human souls (belonging to any caste, creed, nation or religion) is a member of the Godly family, but the time taken by each soul to recognize that God Father varies depending on the role of each soul in this world drama. The more number of births one has taken in this world drama cycle, the earlier will one realize God.

 

 

 

Thq question stands where it is. Why do we need to make any effort in the first place, when the Lord can free us all at once from ignorance and all other ills. Okay your god is bound himself, so that explains many things.

 

See as i said before, when you come up to a forum like this then you have to at least give rational reasonings if you do not understand what means by pramanas. Essentially, your answer to all the questions has been that in your conception God Himself is bound... Well, then there is nothing more to say other than that unfortunately your service is not godly rather in someone's who is bound.

Dear roohani sevadhari

 

you said:

 

The responses seem to be more out of anger for the Brahmakumaris (and their founder Dada Lekhraj) and the Adhyatmik Ishwariya Vishwavidyalaya rather than to engage in any fruitful discussion in an atmosphere of friendship. We are here to discuss spiritual knowledge and God, so I feel that personal accusations against any personality should be avoided.

 

 

 

This is not true, because you do not understand the nature of devotion. No one here is angry as you imagine but calling spade a spade is the duty of every person who deems oneself on the path of Truth. Humility does not mean meekness and non-opposition. I presented the objections in details with pramanas, and ilkewise if you want to put forward your point of view you should give logical and/or scriptural evidences. The main point here is from where does Dada Lekhraj derive his authority? I can also imagine all kinds of things and write them down; so will you agree them to be coming from God ... The fact is that Dada Lekhraj and followers do not understand the basics of Vedic knowledge, what is prasthana-traya etc. Since you think that the scriptures are either junk or have been manipulated there is no common ground to discuss. Obviously personal accusations should be avoided, but when a personality claims to be god then he/she would come under the scanner as to whether his/her siddhanta is consistent, and does it match to the Vedic siddhanta etc. Now here we have someone who does not know the basics of Vedic knowledge posing as god and then you say that we should not reject him. Many a times repremand is the best option for correction.

 

Second important point is that when you come to discuss on a certain forum, you should at least read some basic things of their philosophy because you start accusing about things they do not believe in the first place and the discussion becomes meaningless.

 

The next point is that since you have hardly read Vaishnava theologies so you have no idea of the real nature and status of the scriptures. So i suggest that you first read some introductory material such as Ishopanishad, Perfect Questions Perfect answers, Bhagavad-Gita as it is, in the books section of this site. Then the discussion shall be much more meaningful.

 

you said:

 

As regards my questions, I ask them only to know the views of my learned friends and I am thankful for the same. I do not intend to hurt anyone's feelings. If I have, I am sorry for the same. I don't think that the questions asked by me have been asked for the first time in history. Many people have raised such questions. But just reading scriptures will not solve the problems of the world. God is practically needed to guide the humanity out of the present degraded situation.

 

 

 

God is also present in the God-realized Acharya who is empowered by the swayam-prakash of the Lord. So we should understand the scriptures through the acharyas. As regards, the differences in opinions of acharyas it is a different matter for which you can create new thread. But the basic reason is that just like there is so much material varigatedness it is the nature of spiritual varigatedness.

 

you said:

 

God is practically presnent in this huge Kurukshetra of Kaliyugi world, where every human being has become a Sudra (as pointed out by a learned friend above)to make them real mouth-born Brahmins. He is giving the essence of all the scriptures and teaching Rajyoga to his children, the souls, irrespective of their caste, creed, religion, language, country, or life styles.

 

 

 

And how about the animals? What does your organization propose to do about them who outnumber humans by a really huge margin? Actually only the sublime path of bhakti is available to all the jivas without any distinction including species, which has been distributed by Sri Chaitanya to one and all.

 

But let us stick to basics. Since you believe Dada Lekhraj is god, then naturally his siddhanta should be able to answer all the questions completely. So i would like to pose the following questions for a start:

 

1. What is the nature of a jiva soul?

2. If the jiva soul is completely pure, then why and how does she come to this material world in the first place.

3. Why do you think the Lord does not give liberation to all the jivas at this very moment since He is so loving and caring of the jivas?

4. Why do you think we need to follow any procedure to achieve the highest objective, and why does it take much time and energy? i.e. why does Lord not take all those who show an inclination into His family.

5. What is the nature of the relationship of Lord and jivas?

6. Where do jivas come from?

 

Please give a good amount of thought before answering. These are some important questions that every spiritual seeker should ask and find answers to his/her own satisfaction.

Roohani sevadhari, do you wish to ask questions or only accusations. First off you digress from the original topic so much that the original thing is lost. Still i shall attempt to give some answers.

 

If you wish to discuss caste system then do that in a separate thread. The vaishnava acharyas have been continuing to oppose the hereditary caste system. The bhakti movement as started by Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu which is meant to be distributed to all living beings, including animals, is the only duty of jivas.

 

Roohani sevadhari said:

 

 

If external symbols are not an indication of a person's spiritual position, and if it indicates arrival of Kaliyug, then why do all the gurus, scholars, and the so-called custordians/followers of Hinduism display so many external symbols like janeu, choti, rosaries, rings, vermillion marks all over the body,etc.? Do these things indicate the level of spirituality of a person? Does devotion to God require these external symbols?

 

 

 

What sastra is saying that a person's spiritual position shall be ascertained by the external paraphernalia, not that external paraphernalia is against dharma. These things do not indicate the level of spirituality rather are a kind of "dress code" to have a congenial environment.

 

Then Roohani sevadhari said:

 

 

Does the word "Sacrifice" in the above quotation refer to sacrifice of animals which was prevalent in most parts of India prior to independence and is prevalent even today in many temples of India (like the Kamakhya Temple of Assam)?

Does causing pains and miseries to other living beings is the path to pleasing God?

 

 

 

No causing any kind of injury to living beings is sinful and is the abc of vaishnava doctrine. Sacrifice means giving up something and not the other way round, okay.

 

 

 

BG 4.25: Some yogis perfectly worship the demigods by offering different sacrifices to them, and some of them offer sacrifices in the fire of the Supreme Brahman.

 

BG 4.26: Some [the unadulterated brahmacaris] sacrifice the hearing process and the senses in the fire of mental control, and others [the regulated householders] sacrifice the objects of the senses in the fire of the senses.

 

BG 4.27: Others, who are interested in achieving self-realization through control of the mind and senses, offer the functions of all the senses, and of the life breath, as oblations into the fire of the controlled mind.

 

BG 4.28: Having accepted strict vows, some become enlightened by sacrificing their possessions, and others by performing severe austerities, by practicing the yoga of eightfold mysticism, or by studying the Vedas to advance in transcendental knowledge.

 

BG 4.29: Still others, who are inclined to the process of breath restraint to remain in trance, practice by offering the movement of the outgoing breath into the incoming, and the incoming breath into the outgoing, and thus at last remain in trance, stopping all breathing. Others, curtailing the eating process, offer the outgoing breath into itself as a sacrifice.

 

BG 4.30: All these performers who know the meaning of sacrifice become cleansed of sinful reactions, and, having tasted the nectar of the results of sacrifices, they advance toward the supreme eternal atmosphere.

 

BG 4.31: O best of the Kuru dynasty, without sacrifice one can never live happily on this planet or in this life: what then of the next?

 

BG 4.32: All these different types of sacrifice are approved by the Vedas, and all of them are born of different types of work. Knowing them as such, you will become liberated.

 

BG 4.33: O chastiser of the enemy, the sacrifice performed in knowledge is better than the mere sacrifice of material possessions. After all, O son of Pritha, all sacrifices of work culminate in transcendental knowledge.

 

BG 4.34: Just try to learn the truth by approaching a spiritual master. Inquire from him submissively and render service unto him. The self-realized souls can impart knowledge unto you because they have seen the truth.

 

 

 

 

Bhagavad-Gita 4.42

 

 

tasmad ajnana-sambhutam

hrt-stham jnanasinatmanah

chittvainam samsayam yogam

atisthottistha bharata

 

Translation

 

Therefore the doubts which have arisen in your heart out of ignorance should be slashed by the weapon of knowledge. Armed with yoga, O Bharata, stand and fight.

 

Purport by Srila Prabhupada

 

The yoga system instructed in this chapter is called sanatana-yoga, or eternal activities performed by the living entity. This yoga has two divisions of sacrificial actions: one is called sacrifice of one's material possessions, and the other is called knowledge of self, which is pure spiritual activity. If sacrifice of one's material possessions is not dovetailed for spiritual realization, then such sacrifice becomes material. But one who performs such sacrifices with a spiritual objective, or in devotional service, makes a perfect sacrifice. When we come to spiritual activities, we find that these are also divided into two: namely, understanding of one's own self (or one's constitutional position), and the truth regarding the Supreme Personality of Godhead. One who follows the path of the Gita as it is can very easily understand these two important divisions of spiritual knowledge. For him there is no difficulty in obtaining perfect knowledge of the self as part and parcel of the Lord. And such understanding is beneficial for such a person who easily understands the transcendental activities of the Lord. In the beginning of this chapter, the transcendental activities of the Lord were discussed by the Supreme Lord Himself. One who does not understand the instructions of the Gita is faithless, and is to be considered to be misusing the fragmental independence awarded to him by the Lord. In spite of such instructions, one who does not understand the real nature of the Lord as the eternal, blissful, all-knowing Personality of Godhead, is certainly fool number one. Ignorance can be removed by gradual acceptance of the principles of Krsna consciousness. Krsna consciousness is awakened by different types of sacrifices to the demigods, sacrifice to Brahman, sacrifice in celibacy, in household life, in controlling the senses, in practicing mystic yoga, in penance, in forgoing material possessions, in studying the Vedas, and in partaking of the social institution called varnasrama-dharma. All of these are known as sacrifice, and all of them are based on regulated action. But within all these activities, the important factor is self-realization. One who seeks that objective is the real student of Bhagavad-gita, but one who doubts the authority of Krsna falls back. One is therefore advised to study Bhagavad-gita, or any other scripture, under a bona fide spiritual master, with service and surrender. A bona fide spiritual master is in the disciplic succession from time eternal, and he does not deviate at all from the instructions of the Supreme Lord as they were imparted millions of years ago to the sun-god, from whom the instructions of Bhagavad-gita have come down to the earthly kingdom. One should, therefore, follow the path of Bhagavad-gita as it is expressed in the Gita itself and beware of self-interested people after personal aggrandizement who deviate others from the actual path. The Lord is definitely the supreme person, and His activities are transcendental. One who understands this is a liberated person from the very beginning of his study of the Gita.

 

 

 

 

Srila Prabhupada JSD 6.5

 

 

They are sending animals to the slaughterhouse, and now they'll create their own slaughterhouse. [imitating gunfire:] Tung! Tung! Kill! Kill! You see? Just take Belfast, for example. The Roman Catholics are killing the Protestants, and the Protestants are killing the Catholics. This is nature's law. It's not necessary that you be sent to the ordinary slaughterhouse. You'll make a slaughterhouse at home. You'll kill your own child--abortion. This is nature's law. Who are these children being killed? They are these meat-eaters. They enjoyed themselves when so many animals were killed, and now they're being killed by their mothers. People do not know how nature is working. If you kill, you must be killed. If you kill the cow, who is your mother, then in some future lifetime your mother will kill you. Yes. The mother becomes the child, and the child becomes the mother.Mam sa khadatiti mamsah. The Sanskrit word is mamsa. Mam means "me," and sa means "he." I am killing this animal; I am eating him. And in my next lifetime he'll kill me and eat me. When the animal is sacrificed, this mantra is recited into the ear of the animal--"You are giving your life, so in your next life you will get the opportunity of becoming a human being. And I who am now killing you will become an animal, and you will kill me." So after understanding this mantra, who will be ready to kill an animal?

 

 

 

 

As already quoted:

Srimad-Bhagavatam 11.5.32

 

 

krishna-varnam tvishakrishnam

sangopangastra-parshadam

yajnaih sankirtana-prayair

yajanti hi su-medhasah

 

In the age of Kali, intelligent persons perform congregational chanting to worship the incarnation of Godhead who constantly sings the names of Krishna. Although His complexion is not blackish, He is Krishna Himself. He is accompanied by His associates, servants, weapons and confidential companions.

 

 

 

 

The only yajna that is recommended in this age is the sankirtana yajna. Also read this: http://www.prabhupadavani.org/web/text/146.html

 

Roohani sevadhari said:

 

 

It is evident from history that many souls from the so-called lower castes have progressed better than many Brahmins in the field of spirituality and have become spiritual guides to many sections of the mankind. Do you feel that they have violated the directions of God (as quoted above) by serving the mankind?

 

 

 

I do not "feel" so; just that you didn't read the quotes properly. One should perform the work in accordance with his/her nature which is a particular mixture of the three modes of nature -- sattva, rajas and tama. So there is no question of birth being the criteria.

 

Actually the scriptures say the following:

 

 

The Varaha Purana states -

 

raksasah kalim asritya

jayante brahma-yonisu

utpanna brahmana-kule

badhante srotriyan krsan

 

"Those who were raksasas in previous ages, have taken birth as brahmanas in Kali-yuga to torment the physically weak saintly persons who are engaged in the culture of hearing about the Lord."

 

 

Padma Purana

 

brahmanah ksatriya vaisah

sudrah papa-parayanah

nijacara-vihinas ca

bhavisyanti kalau yuge

 

vipra veda-vihinas ca

pratigraha-parayanah

atyanta-kaminah krur

bhavisyanti kalau yuge

 

veda-nindakaras caiva

dyutacaurya karas tatha

vidhva-sanga-lubdhas ca

bhavisyanti kalau dvijah

 

vrttyartham brahmanah kecit

mahakapata-dharminah

raktambara bhavisyanti

jatilah smasrudharinah

 

kalau yuge bhavisyanti

brahmanah sudra-dharmina

 

 

"In Kali-yuga, all four varnas are devoid of character and proper behavior and are addicted to sin. The brahmanas are devoid of Vedic knowledge and sacrifice. Giving up the five sacrifices mentioned in the Vedas and all brahminical behavior and consciousness, they engage in inferior activities. They collect charity to satisfy their unlimited appetite for sense enjoyment. The brahmanas of Kali-yuga are characterized by the qualities of lust and cruelty. Unholy in deed and thought, they take pleasure in malice and envy. These professional thieves blaspheme the Vedas, drink liquor and exploit women for sex, taking great pleasure in adultery and fornication. They accept extremely sinful means of maintaining their lives and, posing as sadhus, dress in red cloth and wear long hair and beards. In this way the wretched so-called brahmanas of Kali-yuga accept the dharma of sudras."

 

 

 

So actually nearly all the humans in this age are sudras and most even below not in the varnashrama system at all.

 

Roohani sevadhari said:

 

 

According to Adhyatmik Ishwariya Vishwavidyalaya the original religion of a soul is peace, purity and happiness. A soul free from body consciousness is free from all the vices and external symbols of religion. Remembrance of God with love and devotion and in soul consciousness is enough for the purification of self.

 

 

 

This is right. To be more precise, the eternal religion of the soul, the anu-chit, is to render uninterrupted causeless devotional service to the vibhu-chit, Lord Krishna.

 

Then Roohani sevadhari said:

 

 

If Acharyas from Shankara to Madhva believe Gita to tbe the unadultered words of Lord Krishna then why have these scholars clarified Geeta in different ways. Shankaracharya has proved the soul and the Supreme Soul to be one and the same (advaita) on the basis of the same Geeta, whereas Madhvacharya proved the soul and Supreme Soul to be different entities (dwaita) on the basis of the same Gita.

 

 

 

This is due to reasons which you shall not understand because of the god you have created in your mind.

 

 

 

Apart from the above clarifications and interpretations, there have been many other interpretations of Geeta by various human gurus. Who will give the true interpretation of Gita? The ignorant human beings or God Himself?

 

 

 

Oh yeah i forgot, god like Dada Lekhraj will give no?

roohani sevadhari said:

 

Learned Sumedh wrote, "dharma does not mean religion; it means the spiritual practises and occupational and other duties. The Lord Himself gives various kinds of dharma in Gita (e.g. meditation, karma yoga etc) and then asks Arjun to just adopt sharanagati."

 

If dharma does not mean religion and if it means a way of spiritual life then why does caste system exist in Hinduism and why are atrocities committed by upper caste Hindus on their lower caste fellow Hindus even today in the modern world?

Does God teach division of mankind or does he teach unity?

 

 

 

Read carefully, i also wrote occupational and other duties. Please give relevant reasoning; i was not talking of "present day Hinduism" but what Lord Krishna says in the Bhagavad-Gita. The silly argument given in the original post was that there were no other religions at that time, so this statement in Gita is false or manipulated; it was only a clarification of that.

 

As regards caste system, it is in a degraded state as of now. The original varnashrama system is like occupational duty, but much more than that and is described as follows:

 

BG 18.40: There is no being existing, either here or among the demigods in the higher planetary systems, which is freed from these three modes born of material nature.

 

BG 18.41: Brahmanas, kshatriyas, vaisyas and sudras are distinguished by the qualities born of their own natures in accordance with the material modes, O chastiser of the enemy.

 

BG 18.42: Peacefulness, self-control, austerity, purity, tolerance, honesty, knowledge, wisdom and religiousness -- these are the natural qualities by which the brahmanas work.

 

BG 18.43: Heroism, power, determination, resourcefulness, courage in battle, generosity and leadership are the natural qualities of work for the kshatriyas.

 

BG 18.44: Farming, cow protection and business are the natural work for the vaisyas, and for the sudras there is labor and service to others.

 

BG 18.45: By following his qualities of work, every man can become perfect. Now please hear from Me how this can be done.

 

BG 18.46: By worship of the Lord, who is the source of all beings and who is all-pervading, a man can attain perfection through performing his own work.

 

BG 18.47: It is better to engage in one's own occupation, even though one may perform it imperfectly, than to accept another's occupation and perform it perfectly. Duties prescribed according to one's nature are never affected by sinful reactions.

 

BG 18.48: Every endeavor is covered by some fault, just as fire is covered by smoke. Therefore one should not give up the work born of his nature, O son of Kunti, even if such work is full of fault.

 

 

 

So based on the nature of the embodied person in a particular life, by the combination of the modes of goodness, passion and ignorance, the varna of the person is determined. If one takes up an occupational duty in accordance with his/her nature and employs that in God's service it will be best, as the Lord says.

 

roohani sevadhari said:

 

If dharma means meditaion and karmayoga, then why do Hindus practise so many rituals? Can't God be pleased by loveful remembrance only?

 

 

 

Read my previous post. We do not need to please the Lord. What we need to do is engage our minds in Lord 24 hours a day. But how to do that? So the various ceremonies are a means to attract ones mind to the Lord; instead of the useless stuff that we feed to our minds all the time, don't you think it is infinitely better to engage in serving the Lord. Prahlad Maharaj says in Srimad-Bhagavatam (7.5.23-24):

 

sri-prahrada uvaca

sravanam kirtanam vishnoh

smaranam .-sevanam

arcanam vandanam dasyam

sakhyam atma-nivedanam

iti pumsarpita vishnau

bhaktis cen nava-lakshana

kriyeta bhagavaty addha

tan manye 'dhitam uttamam

 

Prahlada Maharaja said: Hearing and chanting about the transcendental holy name, form, qualities, paraphernalia and pastimes of Lord Vishnu, remembering them, serving the lotus feet of the Lord, offering the Lord respectful worship with sixteen types of paraphernalia, offering prayers to the Lord, becoming His servant, considering the Lord one's best friend, and surrendering everything unto Him (in other words, serving Him with the body, mind and words) -- these nine processes are accepted as pure devotional service. One who has dedicated his life to the service of Vishnu through these nine methods should be understood to be the most learned person, for he has acquired complete knowledge.

 

 

 

Moreover, scriptures clearly say that in kali-yuga the only way, the only dharma is hari sankirtana.

 

Brhad Naradiya Purana:

 

harer nama harer nama

harer namaiva kevalam

kalau nasty eva nasty eva

nasty eva gatir anyatha

 

"In this age of quarrel and hypocrisy the only means of deliverance is chanting of the holy name of the Lord. There is no other way. There is no other way. There is no other way."

 

harinama para ye ca

ghore kali-yuge narah

te eva krtakrtyasca

na kalir badhate hi tan

hare kesava govinda

vasudeva jaganmaya

itirayanti ye nityam

na hi tam badhate kalih

 

"In this dark age of Kali-yuga, sincere devotees of the Supreme Lord should leave aside all other means for liberation and take full shelter of the holy name. This is their real responsibility and duty. There is unlimited bliss in chanting the different names of Krsna: Hari, Kesava, Govinda, Vasudeva and Jaganmaya. For one who chants constantly with unflinching faith, he remains unaffected by the reverses of Kali-yuga, because his heart has become purified by chanting."

 

Padma Purana, Uttara Khanda Chapter 42

 

dhyayan krte yajan yajnais

tretayam dvapare ’rcayan

yad apnoti tad apnoti

kalau sankirtya kesavam

 

"Whatever is achieved in Satya-yuga by meditation, in Treta by offering ritual sacrifices and in Dvapara by temple worship is achieved in Kali-yuga by chanting the names of Lord Kesava congregationally."

 

 

Srimad Bhagavatam 11.5.36

 

kalim sabhajayanty arya

guna jnah sara-bhaginah

yatra sankirtanenaiva

sarva-svartho ’bhilabhyate

 

"Those who are actually advanced in knowledge are able to appreciate the essential value of this age of Kali. Such enlightened persons worship Kali-yuga because in this fallen age all perfection of life can easily be achieved by the performance of sankirtana."

 

Srimad Bhagavatam 12.3.51-2

 

kaler dosa-nidhe rajann

asti hy eko mahan gunah

kirtanad eva krsnasya

mukta-sangah param vrajet

krte yad dhyayato visnum

tretayam yajato makhaih

dvapare paricaryayam

kalau tad dhari-kirtanat

 

"The most important factor in this Age of Kali, which is an ocean of faults, is that one can be free from all contamination and become eligible to enter the kingdom of God simply by chanting the holy names. The self-realization that was achieved in the Satya millennium by meditation, in the Treta millennium by the performance of different sacrifices, and in the Dvapara millennium by worship of Lord Krsna can be achieved in the Age of Kali simply by chanting the holy names."

 

 

 

Do a little bit of reading before speaking. The first point is that, in the words of Srila Prabhupada: "You should immediately, who has no reference to the sastra, immediately take him as a rascal number one. This is the conclusion." So all that was given in the original post was nothing more than idle speculation.

 

The second thing is that you have not read the scriptures at all, rather only some bogus persons words and make conclusions from that. As a result you say:

 

As per Geeta God is beyond the cycle of life and death (ajanma and avinashi), but Shri Krishna is shown to have taken birth from the womb of Mata Devaki and is also shown to have died of an arrow shot on the portion beneath his foot. Then how can such a deity be called God?

 

Why does God need to take birth through a mother's womb like Ram and Krishna? Can't he enter into a grown up person to narrate knowledge?

 

 

 

All the vedic scriptures say that Lord Krishna was never in the womb of Mother Devaki as a physical body.

 

For example: From Srimad-Bhagavatam 10.2.18

 

tato jagan-mangalam acyutamsam

samahitam sura-sutena devi

dadhara sarvatmakam atma-bhutam

kashtha yathananda-karam manastah

 

Thereafter, accompanied by plenary expansions, the fully opulent Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is all-auspicious for the entire universe, was transferred from the mind of Vasudeva to the mind of Devaki. Devaki, having thus been initiated by Vasudeva, became beautiful by carrying Lord Krishna, the original consciousness for everyone, the cause of all causes, within the core of her heart, just as the east becomes beautiful by carrying the rising moon.

 

 

 

Srimad-Bhagavatam 10.3.7-8

 

mumucur munayo devah

sumanamsi mudanvitah

mandam mandam jaladhara

jagarjur anusagaram

nisithe tama-udbhute

jayamane janardane

devakyam deva-rupinyam

vishnuh sarva-guha-sayah

avirasid yatha pracyam

disindur iva pushkalah

 

The demigods and great saintly persons showered flowers in a joyous mood, and clouds gathered in the sky and very mildly thundered, making sounds like those of the ocean's waves. Then the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Vishnu, who is situated in the core of everyone's heart, appeared from the heart of Devaki in the dense darkness of night, like the full moon rising on the eastern horizon, because Devaki was of the same category as Sri Krishna.

 

 

 

Read chapters 10.1-10.3 of Srimad-Bhagavatam. The Lord does not take birth but appears. Similarly when the hunter shot Lord Krishna in the foot, He ended His lila's and ascended to the spiritual world in that transcendental body.

 

From Srimad-Bhagavatam 11.30-35-45

 

SB 11.30.35: Jara said: O Lord Madhusudana, I am a most sinful person. I have committed this act out of ignorance. O purest Lord, O Uttamahsloka, please forgive this sinner.

 

SB 11.30.36: O Lord Vishnu, the learned say that for any man, constant remembrance of You will destroy the darkness of ignorance. O master, I have wronged You!

 

SB 11.30.37: Therefore, O Lord of Vaikuntha, please kill this sinful hunter of animals immediately so he may not again commit such offenses against saintly persons.

 

SB 11.30.38: Neither Brahma nor his sons, headed by Rudra, nor any of the great sages who are masters of the Vedic mantras can understand the function of Your mystic power. Because Your illusory potency has covered their sight, they remain ignorant of how Your mystic power works. Therefore, what can I, such a low-born person, possibly say?

 

SB 11.30.39: The Supreme Personality of Godhead said: My dear Jara, do not fear. Please get up. What has been done is actually My own desire. With My permission, go now to the abode of the pious, the spiritual world.

 

SB 11.30.40: So instructed by the Supreme Lord Krishna, who assumes His transcendental body by His own will, the hunter circumambulated the Lord three times and bowed down to Him. Then the hunter departed in an airplane that had appeared just to carry him to the spiritual sky.

 

SB 11.30.41: At that time Daruka was searching for his master, Krishna. As he neared the place where the Lord was sitting, he perceived the aroma of tulasi flowers in the breeze and went in its direction.

 

SB 11.30.42: Upon seeing Lord Krishna resting at the foot of a banyan tree, surrounded by His shining weapons, Daruka could not control the affection he felt in his heart. His eyes filled with tears as he rushed down from the chariot and fell at the Lord's feet.

 

SB 11.30.43: Daruka said: Just as on a moonless night people are merged into darkness and cannot find their way, now that I have lost sight of Your lotus feet, my Lord, I have lost my vision and am wandering blindly in darkness. I cannot tell my direction, nor can I find any peace.

 

SB 11.30.44: [sukadeva Gosvami continued:] O foremost of kings, while the chariot driver was still speaking, before his very eyes the Lord's chariot rose up into the sky along with its horses and its flag, which was marked with the emblem of Garuda.

 

SB 11.30.45: All the divine weapons of Vishnu rose up and followed the chariot. The Lord, Janardana, then spoke to His chariot driver, who was most astonished to see all this.

 

 

 

From Srimad-Bhagavatam 11.31.1-13

 

SB 11.31.1: Sukadeva Gosvami said: Then Lord Brahma arrived at Prabhasa along with Lord Siva and his consort, the sages, the Prajapatis and all the demigods, headed by Indra.

 

SB 11.31.2-3: The forefathers, Siddhas, Gandharvas, Vidyadharas and great serpents also came, along with the Caranas, Yakshas, Rakshasas, Kinnaras, Apsaras and relatives of Garuda, greatly eager to witness the departure of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. As they were coming, all these personalities variously chanted and glorified the birth and activities of Lord Sauri [Krishna].

 

SB 11.31.4: O King, crowding the sky with their many airplanes, they showered down flowers with great devotion.

 

SB 11.31.5: Seeing before Him Brahma, the grandfather of the universe, along with the other demigods, who are all His personal and powerful expansions, the Almighty Lord closed His lotus eyes, fixing His mind within Himself, the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

 

SB 11.31.6: Without employing the mystic agneyi meditation to burn up His transcendental body, which is the all-attractive resting place of all the worlds and the object of all contemplation and meditation, Lord Krishna entered into His own abode.

 

SB 11.31.7: As soon as Lord Sri Krishna left the earth, Truth, Religion, Faithfulness, Glory and Beauty immediately followed Him. Kettledrums resounded in the heavens and flowers showered from the sky.

 

SB 11.31.8: Most of the demigods and other higher beings led by Brahma could not see Lord Krishna as He was entering His own abode, since He did not reveal His movements. But some of them did catch sight of Him, and they were extremely amazed.

 

SB 11.31.9: Just as ordinary men cannot ascertain the path of a lightning bolt as it leaves a cloud, the demigods could not trace out the movements of Lord Krishna as He returned to His abode.

 

SB 11.31.10: A few of the demigods, however -- notably Lord Brahma and Lord Siva -- could ascertain how the Lord's mystic power was working, and thus they became astonished. All the demigods praised the Lord's mystic power and then returned to their own planets.

 

SB 11.31.11: My dear King, you should understand that the Supreme Lord's appearance and disappearance, which resemble those of embodied conditioned souls, are actually a show enacted by His illusory energy, just like the performance of an actor. After creating this universe He enters into it, plays within it for some time, and at last winds it up. Then the Lord remains situated in His own transcendental glory, having ceased from the functions of cosmic manifestation.

 

SB 11.31.12: Lord Krishna brought the son of His guru back from the planet of the lord of death in the boy's selfsame body, and as the ultimate giver of protection He saved you also when you were burned by the brahmastra of Asvatthama. He conquered in battle even Lord Siva, who deals death to the agents of death, and He sent the hunter Jara directly to Vaikuntha in his human body. How could such a personality be unable to protect His own Self?

 

SB 11.31.13: Although Lord Krishna, being the possessor of infinite powers, is the only cause of the creation, maintenance and destruction of innumerable living beings, He simply did not desire to keep His body in this world any longer. Thus He revealed the destination of those fixed in the self and demonstrated that this mortal world is of no intrinsic value.

 

 

 

Some of today's so called gurus imagine that they are above shastra, or they know better than the shastra. So for such persons Srila Prabhupada has said:

"These two things are recommended. Not that fools, as they are thinking, ‘I can..., I can think myself. I don’t agree with the sastra. I don’t agree with the spiritual master. I don’t agree with scriptures. I have got my independent opinion.’ He is fool number one, rascal number one.' (lecture, New York, November 24, 1966)"

 

These are harsh words but are true. The vedic scriptures give the highest knowledge of God and those who imagine they they know better are either speculators, or charlatans. With so many imposters around, the simple test is to check whether the ideas of the person agree with the conclusions of vedic scriptures, or does he/she even attempt to give shastra pramana to justify his/her siddhanta, or do they have a siddhanta at all. If not then the conclusion is given in the quotes of Srila Prabhupada.

 

Srimad-Bhagavatam says about the present times:

 

SB 12.2.4: A person's spiritual position will be ascertained merely according to external symbols, and on that same basis people will change from one spiritual order to the next. A person's propriety will be seriously questioned if he does not earn a good living. And one who is very clever at juggling words will be considered a learned scholar.

 

SB 12.3.32: Cities will be dominated by thieves, the Vedas will be contaminated by speculative interpretations of atheists, political leaders will virtually consume the citizens, and the so-called priests and intellectuals will be devotees of their bellies and genitals.

 

SB 12.3.43: O King, in the age of Kali people's intelligence will be diverted by atheism, and they will almost never offer sacrifice to the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is the supreme spiritual master of the universe. Although the great personalities who control the three worlds all bow down to the lotus feet of the Supreme Lord, the petty and miserable human beings of this age will not do so.

 

SB 12.3.44: Terrified, about to die, a man collapses on his bed. Although his voice is faltering and he is hardly conscious of what he is saying, if he utters the holy name of the Supreme Lord he can be freed from the reaction of his fruitive work and achieve the supreme destination. But still people in the age of Kali will not worship the Supreme Lord.

 

SB 12.3.45: In the Kali-yuga, objects, places and even individual personalities are all polluted. The almighty Personality of Godhead, however, can remove all such contamination from the life of one who fixes the Lord within his mind.

 

SB 12.3.46: If a person hears about, glorifies, meditates upon, worships or simply offers great respect to the Supreme Lord, who is situated within the heart, the Lord will remove from his mind the contamination accumulated during many thousands of lifetimes.

 

SB 12.3.47: Just as fire applied to gold removes any discoloration caused by traces of other metals, Lord Vishnu within the heart purifies the minds of the yogis.

 

SB 12.3.48: By one's engaging in the processes of demigod worship, austerities, breath control, compassion, bathing in holy places, strict vows, charity and chanting of various mantras, one's mind cannot attain the same absolute purification as that achieved when the unlimited Personality of Godhead appears within one's heart.

 

SB 12.3.49: Therefore, O King, endeavor with all your might to fix the Supreme Lord Kesava within your heart. Maintain this concentration upon the Lord, and at the time of death you will certainly attain the supreme destination.

 

SB 12.3.50: My dear King, the Personality of Godhead is the ultimate controller. He is the Supreme Soul and the supreme shelter of all beings. When meditated upon by those about to die, He reveals to them their own eternal spiritual identity.

 

SB 12.3.51: My dear King, although Kali-yuga is an ocean of faults, there is still one good quality about this age: Simply by chanting the Holy Name of Krishna, one can become free from material bondage and be promoted to the transcendental kingdom.

 

SB 12.3.52: Whatever result was obtained in Satya-yuga by meditating on Vishnu, in Treta-yuga by performing sacrifices, and in Dvapara-yuga by serving the Lord's lotus feet can be obtained in Kali-yuga simply by hari-kirtana.

 

 

 

Hare Krishna

 

please accept my pranams

 

i would like to make a small enhancement so that others may not misunderstand

 

you said:

 

In the spiritual world, time is absent and hence these lilas are going on without time, in other words, eternally.

 

 

 

It means that in the spiritual world the nature of Time is different, i.e. there is only the eternal present and no past/future.

 

From Srila Bhaktivinoda's Jaiva Dharma Chapter 15 Jiva-tattva

 

Vrajanatha: You said earlier that the cit world is eternal, and so are the jivas. If this is true, how can an eternal entity possibly be created, manifested or produced? If it is created at some point of time, it must have been non-existent before that, so how can we

accept that it is eternal?

 

Babaji: The time and space that you experience in this material world are completely different from time and space in the spiritual world. Material time is divided into three aspects: past, present and future. However, in the spiritual world there is only one undivided, eternally present time. Every event of the spiritual world is eternally present. Whatever we say or describe in the material world is under the jurisdiction of material time and space, so when we say – "The jivas

were created,The spiritual world was manifested," or "There is no influence of maya in creating the form of the jivas," – material time is bound to influence our language and our statements. This is inevitable in our conditioned state, so we cannot remove the influence of material time from our descriptions of the atomic jiva and spiritual objects. The conception of past, present and future always enters them in some way or another. Still, those who can discriminate properly can understand the application of the eternal present when they comprehend the purport of the descriptions of the spiritual world. Baba, be very careful in this matter. Give up the inevitable baseness, or the aspect of the description that is fit to be rejected, and have spiritual realization.

 

 

 

From Srila Bhaktivinoda's Jaiva Dharma Chapter 14 Sakti-tattva

 

They are present for all time, and will exist for all time. All the pastimes of the Supreme Truth are eternal. Those who think that one of these pastimes is principal and the other is secondary are ignorant of the truth and devoid of rasa.

 

 

 

why do people bother writing about things to which they have no clue, just like pests needlessly throwing out junk using quotes from some "hopkins", "garvey" ...

 

 

Sarvadharmanparityajya Mamekam Sharanam Vraj.

Aham twa sarvapapebhyo mokshayami maa shuchah. (Geeta 18/66)

 

 

 

dharma does not mean religion; it means the spiritual practises and occupational and other duties. The Lord Himself gives various kinds of dharma in Gita (e.g. meditation, karma yoga etc) and then asks Arjun to just adopt sharanagati.

 

The rest of the stuff is a really third grade attempt to show Lord Shiva as supreme, and proves one thing -- the Brahmakumari and Adhyatmik Ishwariya Vishwavidyalaya are bogus. I really pity those who actually follow such organizations despite directly seeing their dishonesty.

 

Only reminds of one thing: better to be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt ...

please accept my pranams

 

Sri Brahma Samhita is actually a very difficult book. Even our tattvacharya Srila Jiva Goswami says "Although the Brahma-samhita is a very difficult book, the commentaries of the sages have made it easy to understand.". You can find Srila Jiva Goswami's commentary here: http://www.harekrsna.com/philosophy/bmgs/goswamis/writings.htm with translation by Kusakratha Dasa prabhu, which is easier to read. Srila BhaktiSiddhanta Saraswati's commentry is more elaborate, though difficult to understand; in fact i find most of the writings of Srila BhaktiSiddhanta Saraswati difficult to understand -- key is to read again and again.

Dear guest

 

You said:

 

There are infinite universes... therefore infinite incarnations of Vishu of whom Krishna was one. Bhagwan Swaminarayan is Parabrahm and is above these universes. For all of the universes there is only Parabrahm and Brahm.

 

Agreed Krishna bhagwan was Purushottam - meaning purush (man/persons), uttam(above, first, highest)... so he is the highest form of man... above the caste of bhramin... but not classified at the level of Purna Purshottam Narayan (Sarave Jivo no Kalyankar ... the salvator of all souls).

 

 

 

If you would have cared to read the quote before, you would not have jumped and exposed your ignorance.

 

 

Vishnu is the ParaBrahm.

 

From Bhagavad-Gita 10.12-13

 

In reply to:

 

arjuna uvaca

param brahma param dhama

pavitram paramam bhavan

purusam sasvatam divyam

adi-devam ajam vibhum

 

ahus tvam rsayah sarve

devarsir naradas tatha

asito devalo vyasah

svayam caiva bravisi me

 

TRANSLATION

Arjuna said: You are the Supreme Brahman, the ultimate, the supreme abode and purifier, the Absolute Truth and the eternal divine person. You are the primal God, transcendental and original, and You are the unborn and all-pervading beauty. All the great sages such as Narada, Asita, Devala, and Vyasa proclaim this of You, and now You Yourself are declaring it to me.

 

 

 

That Parabrahman Sri Hari is the same who expands as infinite Forms of Kshirodakashayi Vishnu and Garbhodakashayi Vishnu in each of the universes. All His Forms are one and the same. If you fail to understand this simple point, you are truly lost.

Hare Krishna

 

 

Preference is nothing to do with the reality as it present it self.

Dharma is the operative word, which is what I prefer to follow, every thing else pales in to insignificance.

Hindu Dharma by inference means one who follows Dharma as laid down in Vedic shastra.

 

 

 

You seem to think that advaitists or shaivas or shaktas etc. are all valid paths following vedic teachings. However, none of the accepted acharyas agrees with you; vaishnava acharyas including Sripad Ramanuja, Sripad Madhva, or Vallabhacharya etc. all said that without devotion to Sri Hari there is no possibility of reaching the ultimate goal and that advaitism or shaivism etc. are opposed to vedic conclusions. Similarly advaitins claim that Sri Hari is subject to Maya and devotion works only to a point, beyond which only jnana (in the way they explain Truth) works. Acharyas in both philosophies have engaged in extensive philosophical debates to establish their conclusions, and both sides do not agree with you that both philosophies are (simultaneously) correct vedic dharma. The question here is of what is the vedic dharma in the first place. As you say the reality that presents itself is that all those who follow any interpretation of the vedas call themselves hindu (and even some of those who do not accept vedic scriptures); vaishnavas accept bhagavata dharma as the true vedic dharma and that is what they would identify themselves as. You interpret hindu dharma as synonymous to vedic dharma; others see it differently and the reality is that the word hindu is applied to all whether or not their philosophy actually is vedic -- as i said the opinion of vaishnava acharyas is that advaita/shaiva/... are not vedic and same is the case with others following other philosophical lines.

 

 

The nature of the soul does not change the names.

 

 

 

I do not see what you try to say here. The opinion of vaishnava acharyas is that the eternal nature of anu-chit jiva soul is to render devotional service to the vibhu-chit Sri Hari, and that this is the conclusion of Vedic scriptures. Advaitins do not agree with this position, neither do shaivas/shaktas etc. Either vaishnava acharyas are right or else they are not; it is not logical to say that all are right simultaneously. The names of Sri Hari or Shiva are those of distinct personalities; to say that all are Supreme is opposed to logic and vedic scriptures. Consequently if someone claims that all these different groups are following the vedic dharma then it is opposed to the teachings of the respective groups themselves for they hold that the other groups are misrepresenting the vedic scriptures.

Hare Krishna

please accept my obeisances

 

 

My question is why did he create "Maya" at all if he

wanted people to be happy and self-relized.Why create this world if he knew people would not be happy???

 

 

 

The real reason of not being happy is not being situated in the true constitutional position -- when the jiva turns away from the rasadhara there is no rasa and hence suffering. If the world of illusion where the jiva tries to be the lord would have been a place of only comfort then it would have been quite unfortunate because then all the baddha jivas would have remained bereft of attaining true spiritual life for the eternity. The loving parents punish the child to correct him, and though in the short term it appears painful in the long term it is most auspicious and so cannot be truly called suffering. Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur explains in Jaiva-Dharma Chapter 16:

 

Vrajanatha: What harm would there have been if the jiva had not been given independent desire? Krsna is omniscient, and He gave this independence to the jivas, even though He knew that they would suffer on account of it, so isn't He responsible for the jiva's suffering?

 

Babaji: Independence is a precious jewel, in the absence of which inert objects are insignificant and worthless. If the jiva had not received independence, he would also have become as insignificant and worthless as the material objects. The jiva is an atomic, spiritual entity, so he must certainly have all the qualities of spiritual objects. The only difference is that Bhagavan, who is the complete spiritual object, possesses all these qualities in full, whereas the jiva only has them to a very minute degree. Independence is a distinctive quality of the spiritual object, and an object's inherent quality cannot be separated from the object itself. Consequently, the jiva also has this quality of independence, but only to a very minute degree, because he is atomic. It is only because of this independence that the jiva is the supreme object in the material world, and the lord of creation.

The independent jiva is a beloved servant of Krsna, and thus Krsna is kind and compassionate towards him. Seeing the misfortune of the jiva, as he misuses his independence and becomes attached to maya, He chases after him, weeping and weeping, and appears in the material world to deliver him. Sri Krsna, the ocean of compassion, His heart melting with mercy for the jivas, His acintya-lila in the material world, thinking that His appearance will enable the jiva to see His nectarean pastimes. However, the jiva does not understand the truth about Krsna's pastimes, even after being showered by so much mercy, so Krsna then descends in Sri Navadvipa in the form of guru. He personally describes the supreme process of chanting His name, form, qualities and pastimes, and personally instructs and inspires the jivas to take to this path by practicing it Himself. Baba, how can you accuse Krsna of being at fault in any way when He is so merciful? His mercy is unlimited, but our misfortune is lamentable.

 

...

 

Gold is purified by heating and hammering. Being indifferent to Krsna, the jiva has become impure through engaging in mundane sense gratification. Therefore, he must be purified by being beaten with the hammers of misery on the anvil of this material world. By this process, the misery of the jivas averse to Krsna finally culminates in happiness. Suffering is therefore just a sign of Bhagavan's mercy. That is why far sighted people see the suffering of jivas in Krsna's pastimes as auspicious, though the near sighted can only see it as an inauspicious source of misery.

 

...

 

It is natural to experience some suffering when one is controlled by the desire of the agent. However, if that suffering brings pleasure in the end, it is not true suffering. How can you call it suffering? The so-called suffering that one undergoes in order to nourish and support Krsna's pastimes is actually a source of delight. The jiva's independent desire has caused him to abandon the pleasure of serving Krsna, and instead accept suffering in maya. This is the jiva's fault, not Krsna's.

 

...

 

Vrajanatha: Is maya-sakti the cause of our misfortune then? Would the jivas have had to suffer like this if the omnipotent and omniscient Sri Krsna had kept maya away from them?

Babaji: Maya is a reflected transformation of Krsna's internal potency, svarupa-sakti, and it is like a fiery furnace where the jivas who are not qualified for Krsna's seva are chastized and made fit for the spiritual world. Maya is Krsna's maidservant. In order to purify the jivas who have turned against Krsna, she punishes them, gives appropriate therapy, and purifies them. The infinitesimal jiva has forgotten that he is an eternal servant of Krsna, and for this offense, maya, taking the form of a witch, punishes him. This material world is like a jail, and maya is the jailer who imprisons the estranged jivas and punishes them. A king constructs a prison for the benefit of his subjects, and in the same way, Bhagavan has shown His immense mercy towards the jivas by making this prison-like material world and appointing maya as its custodian.

 

 

 

Hare Krishna

 

Guestji, if members of iskcon or some other vaishnavas do not prefer to be identified by the term hindu then why do you object.

 

What does shastra say? It says follow Dharma. The Gita begins with Dharma shestre.

 

 

 

Therefore one should prefer to be identified as followers of sanatana-dharma or bhagavat-dharma.

 

Hindu Dharma by inference means one who follows Dharma as laid down in Vedic shastra.

 

 

 

Different people interpret the Vedic scriptures in different ways ranging from vaishnavas, advaitists, shaivas, shaktas etc. and the differences between them are not small. In the bhagavata dharma, vaishnavism is understood as the nature of soul and thus that is preferred over other designations.

 

It does not matter if the word Hindu gets dropped, nothing will change; we still would be bickering whose path is better.

 

 

 

The culture of shastrArtha is ancient, very healthy and infinitely superior to blind believing in something which is pleasing. You call it bickering; the alternatives are much worse.

 

haribol

Hare Krishna

 

May i suggest the records of Pandit Jasraj who is a great devotee of Krishna. His albums are of the classical Indian style which not everyone relishes but once one develops some taste then they are truly beautiful; i recently had the fortune of attending a live performance which was quite remarkable.

Hare Krishna and dandavat pranam

 

Theistji,

 

How does Bhaktisiddhanta claim to know that Jesus Christ was unwilling to suffer for in the same way as Vasudeva Datta?

 

 

 

Somehow i find this question sounding more like an opinion rather than a question. The correct answer to this question of course would be that Srila BhaktiSiddhanta is not a conditioned soul like the rest of us who is subject to illusion or cheating propensities. I find it inconsistent when you immediately accept without questioning Srila Prabhupada's statements which state that Jesus is an empowered jiva but have grave doubts as regards some other statements regarding Jesus; it seems to be a biased way of accepting what appeals. As far as i know none of the other vaishnava acharyas have accepted Jesus as an empowered incarnation, and it is not difficult to find a large number of differences between bhagavata siddhanta and Jesus' words as expressed in Bible (there are similarities but the differences are also quite prominent) e.g. regarding Form(s) of Lord or jiva/maya/cit sakti or hell/satan etc; so questioning that would be more logical. I find it hard to understand as to how you would claim to know the historical Jesus any more than as expressed in Bible or as in the words of Srila Prabhupada/BhaktiSiddhanta.

 

Any other rational explanation would count as speculation. However, i would like to offer the following. Jesus does not express the sentiment of Srila Vasudeva Datta i.e. praying to his Father to give him all the sins of all the living entities and let him suffer for eternity. The words or sentiments of a pure devotee like Srila Vasudeva Datta are as good as Truth. So one can turn the question around and ask how one can claim that Jesus would also be willing to take sins of all the beings when his words give no such hint; in other words their moods are different and pure devotees can compare the moods like what is done for different kinds of rasas.

 

 

Jesus Christ gave the example of pure unmotivated service when before the crucifixtion he prayed "not my will but Thy will be done".

 

 

 

I would agree that this is the spirit of surrender and in some sense the starting point of gaudiya philosophy. However, the point of how to develop the love, to know and execute "Thy will" etc. is covered scantily at best in the words of Jesus as expressed in Bible.

 

 

He obviously disagrees with Srila Prabhupada who said Jesus Christ came directly from the spiritual world. He is putting forth a picture of some bound soul working his way upward. I totally and unequivically reject that viewpoint.

 

 

 

Satyaloka is not spiritual world. I do not agree with your judgement that the picture being presented is that of a bound soul working his way upward. In this context it would be useful to remember liberated souls like the four Kumaras who themselves were empowered incarnations (of transcendental knowledge!) or Srila Sukadeva or even Uddhava who "worked their way upward" in some sense. There are many kinds of empowered incarnations mentioned in Bhagavatam 1.13 (particularly 1.13.26/27) for example. A liberated soul does not imply Krishna's associate in Vraja.

 

haribol

 

Why did krishna lose to jarasandha 17 times? He is almight, right? I dont get it...

 

 

 

He defeated jarasandha 17 times while the eighteenth time (when attacked by kalayavana and then by jarasandha) the two Lords fled the battlefield and established Dvarka in their famous "Ranachora" pastime /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Hare Krishna

 

Your reply was based on the statement:

 

The Koran says animals have no soul and they should be killed and eaten to please Allah.

 

 

 

So you should have simply said that this is a wrong understanding and corrected it instead of swearing. However, it is a known fact that muslims celebrate festivals like bakr-id by mass slaughter of innocent animals as an offering to Allah for eating. So the onus is on you to prove that this behaviour is opposed to Quran. On the contrary i have given verses which clearly say that this is fine and falls in the category of good halal food which is a sacrifice to Allah.

 

You said:

 

There is no verse in the Koran saying animals have no soul

 

 

 

You are right, the Quran makes no direct mention of this but there is something known as deductions based on scriptural statements. Having soul is such an important truth that if the Quran says that humans have soul, but makes no mention of animals then it will be understood that apart from humans no one has soul and that is the accepted belief of almost all Islamic theologians currently. If you read the currently accepted beliefs of Islamic scholars and leaders then you will find that almost all of them believe that animals have no soul precisely because Quran says humans have soul but animals are not mentioned. How far do we regress your logic here? Do the stones have souls? Do plants or germs have souls? Quran makes no mention of these either. So how do we select and come to conclusions. The natural deduction is that according to Quran animals have no soul.

 

You said:

 

Besides if you cared to know, there are hadith (sayings of prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) that indicates that animals have souls and they go to heaven.

 

 

 

I have heard so elsewhere but am yet to see a verse from any Hadith which substantiates this point, maybe you can bring some here so that we can be clear of just heresay; however the main problem is that most muslims do not accept this interpretation. There are many more, much much more important truths hidden in some of islamic texts which Sri Gaurangadeva revealed regarding the Truth and aim of human life that muslims do not care to know. For instance:

From Chaitanya-Charitamrta Madhya 18.185-196

 

Among the Muslims was a grave person who was wearing a black dress. People called him a saintly person.

 

The heart of that saintly person softened upon seeing Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. He wanted to talk to Him and establish impersonal Brahman on the basis of his own scripture, the Koran.

 

When that person tried to establish the impersonal Brahman conception of the Absolute Truth on the basis of the Koran, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu refuted his argument.

 

Whatever arguments he put forward, the Lord refuted them all. Finally the person became stunned and could not speak.

 

Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu said, "The Koran certainly establishes impersonalism, but at the end it refutes that impersonalism and establishes the personal God.

 

"The Koran accepts the fact that ultimately there is only one God. He is full of opulence, and His bodily complexion is blackish.

 

"According to the Koran, the Lord has a supreme, blissful, transcendental body. He is the Absolute Truth, the all-pervading, omniscient and eternal being. He is the origin of everything.

 

"Creation, maintenance and dissolution come from Him. He is the original shelter of all gross and subtle cosmic manifestations.

 

"The Lord is the Supreme Truth, worshipable by everyone. He is the cause of all causes. By engaging in His devotional service, the living entity is relieved from material existence.

 

"No conditioned soul can get out of material bondage without serving the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Love at His lotus feet is the ultimate goal of life.

 

"The happiness of liberation, whereby one merges into the Lord's existence, cannot even be compared to a fragment of the transcendental bliss obtained by service unto the Lord's lotus feet.

 

"In the Koran there are descriptions of fruitive activity, speculative knowledge, mystic power and union with the Supreme, but ultimately all this is refuted and the Lord's personal feature established, along with His devotional service.

 

 

 

From Jaiva-Dharma Chapter 5

 

Lahiri Mahasaya was a learned scholar of the Farsi language, and he had studied the thirty sepharas of the Qur’an, and many books of the Sufis. He asked the Kazi, “According to your ideology, what is meant by mukti?”

 

The Kazi replied, “What you refer to as the jiva, individual soul, we call ruh. This ruh is found in two conditions: ruh-mujarrad, the conscious or liberated soul; and ruh-tarkibi, the conditioned soul. What you refer to as spirit (cit) we call mujarrad, and what you refer to as matter (acit) we call jism. Mujarrad is beyond the limitations of time and space, whereas jism is subordinate to time and space. The ruh-tarkibi, or baddha-jiva, has a material mind and is full of ignorance (malphut) and desires. The ruh-mujarrad are pure and aloof from all these contaminations, and they reside in the spiritual abode, which is known as alam al-mashal. “The ruh becomes pure through the gradual development of ishqh or prema. There is no influence of jism, or matter, in that abode where Khoda (God) brought the prophet Paigambar Sahib. Yet even there, the ruh remains as a servitor (banda), and the Lord is the master. Therefore the relationship between the banda and Khoda is eternal, and mukti is actually the attainment of this relationship in its pure form. The Qur’an and the literature of the Sufis explain these conclusions, but not everyone can understand them. Gauranga Mahaprabhu mercifully taught Chand Kazi all these points, and since that time we have become His unalloyed bhaktas.”

 

Lahiri: What is the primary teaching of the Qur’an?

Kazi: According to the Qur’an, the Lord’s personal abode, which is the highest attainment in the spiritual world, is known as behesht. It is a fact that there is no formal worship there, yet life itself is worship (ibada). The residents of that abode are immersed in transcendental bliss simply by seeing the Lord. This is the very same teaching that has been presented by Sri Gaurangadeva.

 

Lahiri: Does the Qur’an accept that the Lord has a transcendental form?

Kazi: The Qur’an states that the Lord has no form. But Sri

Gaurangadeva told Chand Kazi that this teaching of the Qur'an means that the Lord cannot have a material form. It does not preclude the existence of His pure spiritual form. Paigambar Sahib saw the divine loving form of the Lord in accordance with his level of eligibility. The transcendental moods and sentiments that are characteristic of the other rasas remained hidden from him.

 

 

 

Simultaneously Sri Gauranga did not hesitate to criticize the sinful practises of muslims such as in Chaitanya-Charitamrta Adi 17.153-17.171. So you thoroughly misjudge devotees here, for many have more knowledge of your own scriptures. If you want to know more then read "The Hidden Treasure of Al-Qur'an (as explained by Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu)" which must be available from Nararatna Dasa prabhu e.g. here http://www.dipika.org/2003/01/10/muslim.preaching.program/index.html

Hare Krishna

 

Yes one *can* possibly interpret the verses of Quran to show that meat eating is not recommended. However as far as i have read, it does not prohibit it anywhere. If you wish to substantiate your point then you need to produce a verse which says that all meat is forbidden which you cannot, simply because none exists. So if you want to be taken seriously, instead of calling others liers and swearing you should produce verses from Quran to show that a) animals have soul, and b) all kinds meat is forbidden to eat.

 

It will be more than welcome if Quran would say that animals have soul, and meat-eating is sinful. Unfortunately neither the Quran says it (or at least the accepted translations), nor any of the muslims accept either of these two. Rather than arguing here you would do well to argue with muslims if your argument has any backing from Quran.

 

Quran 2:173

 

He only prohibits for you the eating of animals that die

of themselves (without human interference), blood, the

meat of pigs, and animals dedicated to other than God. If

one is forced (to eat these), without being malicious or

deliberate, he incurs no sin. God is Forgiver, Most

Merciful.

 

 

 

So halal meat as per the guidelines is allowed to be eaten.

 

Quran 6:145

 

Say (O' Muhammad): "I find not in the Message received by me by inspiration any (meat) forbidden to be eaten by one who wishes to eat it unless it be dead meat or blood poured forth or the flesh of swine for it is an abomination or what is impious (meat) on which a name has been invoked other than Allah's.

 

 

 

Quran 16:115

 

He has only forbidden you dead meat and blood and the flesh of swine and any (food) over which the name of other than Allah has been invoked. But if one is forced by necessity without willful disobedience nor transgressing due limits then Allah is Oft-Forgiving Most Merciful.

 

 

 

Then muslims will also use verses like these:

 

Quran 2:168-171

 

O mankind! Eat of that which is lawful and wholesome in the earth, and follow not the footsteps of the Satan. Lo! he is an open enemy for you. He enjoins upon you only the evil and the foul, and that you should tell concerning Allah that which you know not. And when it is said unto them: Follow that which Allah hath revealed, they say: We follow that wherein we found our fathers. What! Even though their fathers were wholly unintelligent and had no guidance? The likeness of those who disbelieve is as the likeness of one who calls unto that which hears naught except a shout and cry. Deaf, Dumb, Blind, therefore they have no sense.

 

 

 

Quran 16:116-117

 

But say not for any false thing that your tongues may put forth "This is lawful and this is forbidden" so as to ascribe false things to Allah. For those who ascribe false things to Allah will never prosper. (In such falsehood) is but a paltry profit; but they will have a most grievous Penalty.

 

 

 

to emphasize that saying (halal) meat-eating is not good or forbidden (and any other thing not mentioned in Quran) is following satan etc etc.

 

As for animals having soul, remember that unless Quran explicitly says that animals have soul there is no reason to imagine that actually Quran says so using some indirect interpretation. You think you are very clever in having reversed the real statements: a) Quran does not say explicitly that animals have soul, and b) Quran allows for eating meat. If you can present a verse which says that animals have soul then it will be indeed a pleasant surprise which will bolster argument against meat-eating significantly.

All glories to the devotees of the Lord

 

 

From now on I shall refrain from 'trying' to explain our philosophy to anyone because I'm not qualified anyway.

 

 

 

Neither am i remotely qualified; i only try to explain the little i have understood and there must necessarily be errors in my understanding. This discussion is to clarify our own understanding so that we may at least be satisfied with the answers.

 

haribol

Hare Krishna

please accept my dandavat pranams

 

 

 

So Krishna created this material world in order to feel complete

 

 

 

This may not be the correct way to put it. The material energy is an intrinsic part of the Lord. It is like saying "why is God Omnipotent?" -- well the answer is that it is His nature. Similarly the jiva souls and the material energy are an intrinsic part of the Absolute Truth, or in other words they are also (part of) Absolute Truth and are eternally true. When we put it more "sweetly" then we say that these are lilamayi attributes of the Lord.

 

 

 

, and we, the foolish souls have been drawn by it because some way or other we desired to lord it over nature. Why did we desire this when we had eternally blissful bodies that were situated in ever increasing extasy? We do not know,we have forgotten, we can't explain. That bothers me, because now if I try to explain our philosophy to somebody, this can easily be questioned and turned into a very weak argument.

 

 

 

That's not an entirely correct description of the gaudiya siddhanta. We have eternally blissful spiritual forms but we have not attained them yet or we have never been in svarupa-siddhi.

 

From Srila Prabhupada's letter to Jagadisa Maharaja in 1970:

 

 

Regarding your second question, have the conditioned souls ever seen Krsna?

 

Were they with the Lord before being conditioned by the desire to lord it over material nature?

 

Yes, the conditioned souls are parts and parcels of the Lord and thus they were with Krsna before being conditioned. Just as the child must have seen his father because the father places the child in the womb of the mother, similarly each soul has seen Krsna or the Supreme Father. But at that time the conditioned souls are resting in the condition called susupti which is exactly like deep sleep without dream, or anesthetized state, therefore they do not remember being with Krsna when they wake up in the material world and become engaged in material affairs.

 

 

 

So here Srila Prabhupada says that the jivas were in a susupti state before becoming involved in material realm.

 

Krsna Book, Chapter 28

 

 

The mature devotees, who have completely executed Krsna consciousness, are immediately transferred to the universe where Krsna is appearing. In that universe the devotees get their first opportunity to associate with Krsna personally and directly.

 

 

 

So the souls have the first opportunity to associate personally with Krsna. Before that the association of baddha-jivas was as described before with (Krsna as) Mahavishnu since the jivas in the material worlds are coming from Lord Mahavishnu.

 

You said:

 

 

I know, we are the cause of our own suffering, but still I ask why do we suffer? If Krishna really loves and cares for us so much, why didn't He create a world for us that had none of these threefold miseries of disease old-age and death?

 

 

 

We suffer because of our past deeds/misdeeds. Initially we made the mistake of choosing material worlds instead of the spiritual world, and despite the Lord trying to attract everyone to Himself by performing various pastimes since time immemorial we have stuck to our guns.

Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur answers this question as follows in Jaiva-Dharma Chapter 16:

 

 

Vrajanatha: Prabhu, I understand that this marginal position is situated in tatastha-svabhava, or junction, of the spiritual and material worlds. Why is it that some jivas go from there to the material world, while others go to the spiritual world?

 

Babaji: Krsna's qualities are also present in the jivas, but only in a minute quantity. Krsna is supremely independent, so the desire to be independent is eternally present in the jivas as well. When the jiva uses his independence correctly, he remains disposed towards Krsna, but when he misuses it, he becomes vimukha (indifferent) to Him. It is just this indifference that gives rise to the desire in the jiva's heart to enjoy maya. Because of the desire to enjoy maya, he develops the false ego that he can enjoy material sense gratification, and then the five types of ignorance ­ tamas (not knowing anything about the spirit soul), moha (the illusion of the bodily concept of life), maha-moha (madness for material enjoyment), tamisra (forgetfulness of one's constitutional position due to anger or envy) and andha-tamisra (considering death to be the ultimate end) ­ cover his pure, atomic nature. Our liberation or subjugation simply depends on whether we use our minute independence properly, or misuse it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Vrajanatha: Why must the jivas suffer for the sake of Bhagavan's pastimes?

 

Babaji: The jivas possess some independence. This is actually a sign of Bhagavan's special mercy upon them. Inert objects are insignificant and worthless because they have no such independent desire. The jiva has attained sovereignty of the inert world only because of his independent desire. Misery and happiness are conditions of the mind. Thus what we may consider misery is happiness for one engrossed in it. Since all varieties of material sense gratification finally result in nothing but misery, a materialistic person only achieves suffering. When that suffering becomes excessive, it gives rise to a search for happiness. From that desire, discrimination arises, and from discrimination, the tendency for inquiry is born. As a result of this, one attains sat-sanga (the association of saintly people), whereupon sraddha develops. When sraddha is born, the jiva ascends to a higher stage, namely the path of bhakti.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Vrajanatha: What harm would there have been if the jiva had not been given independent desire? Krsna is omniscient, and He gave this independence to the jivas, even though He knew that they would suffer on account of it, so isn't He responsible for the jiva's suffering?

 

Babaji: Independence is a precious jewel, in the absence of which inert objects are insignificant and worthless. If the jiva had not received independence, he would also have become as insignificant and worthless as the material objects. The jiva is an atomic, spiritual entity, so he must certainly have all the qualities of spiritual objects. The only difference is that Bhagavan, who is the complete spiritual object, possesses all these qualities in full, whereas the jiva only has them to a very minute degree. Independence is a distinctive quality of the spiritual object, and an object's inherent quality cannot be separated from the object itself. Consequently, the jiva also has this quality of independence, but only to a very minute degree, because he is atomic. It is only because of this independence that the jiva is the supreme object in the material world, and the lord of creation.

The independent jiva is a beloved servant of Krsna, and thus Krsna is kind and compassionate towards him. Seeing the misfortune of the jiva, as he misuses his independence and becomes attached to maya, He chases after him, weeping and weeping, and appears in the material world to deliver him. Sri Krsna, the ocean of compassion, His heart melting with mercy for the jivas, His acintya-lila in the material world, thinking that His appearance will enable the jiva to see His nectarean pastimes. However, the jiva does not understand the truth about Krsna's pastimes, even after being showered by so much mercy, so Krsna then descends in Sri Navadvipa in the form of guru. He personally describes the supreme process of chanting His name, form, qualities and pastimes, and personally instructs and inspires the jivas to take to this path by practicing it Himself. Baba, how can you accuse Krsna of being at fault in any way when He is so merciful? His mercy is unlimited, but our misfortune is lamentable.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Vrajanatha: Why have you said that karma is beginningless?

 

Babaji: The root of all karma is the desire to perform karma, and the root cause of this desire is avidyä (ignorance). Avidya is forgetfulness of the truth: "I am an eternal servant of Krsna," and it does not have its origin in mundane time. Rather, it originates in the tatastha junction of the spiritual and material worlds. That is

why karma does not have its beginning in mundane time, and is therefore called beginningless.

 

 

 

 

In reply to "If Krishna really loves and cares for us so much, why didn't He create a world for us that had none of these threefold miseries of disease old-age and death?" i would say that the real reason for our suffering is that we are not situated in our true consititutional position. We desired to be independent of the Lord and there is no rasa without the Lord and therefore we suffer. If the Lord had indeed created such a world where there would be no suffering then it would have been most unfortunate because then we would never ever had attained our constitutional position. Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur says the following in Jaiva-Dharma:

 

 

 

Gold is purified by heating and hammering. Being indifferent to Krsna, the jiva has become impure through engaging in mundane sense gratification. Therefore, he must be purified by being beaten with the hammers of misery on the anvil of this material world. By this process, the misery of the jivas averse to Krsna finally culminates in happiness. Suffering is therefore just a sign of Bhagavan's mercy. That is why far sighted people see the suffering of jivas in Krsna's pastimes as auspicious, though the near sighted can only see it as an inauspicious source of misery.

...

It is natural to experience some suffering when one is controlled by the desire of the agent. However, if that suffering brings pleasure in the end, it is not true suffering. How can you call it suffering? The so-called suffering that one undergoes in order to nourish and support Krsna's pastimes is actually a source of delight. The jiva's independent desire has caused him to abandon the pleasure of serving Krsna, and instead accept suffering in maya. This is the jiva's fault, not Krsna's.

 

 

 

And finally:

 

 

Vrajanatha: Is maya-sakti the cause of our misfortune then? Would the jivas have had to suffer like this if the omnipotent and omniscient Sri Krsna had kept maya away from them?

Babaji: Maya is a reflected transformation of Krsna's internal potency, svarupa-sakti, and it is like a fiery furnace where the jivas who are not qualified for Krsna's seva are chastized and made fit for the spiritual world. Maya is Krsna's maidservant. In order to purify the jivas who have turned against Krsna, she punishes them, gives appropriate therapy, and purifies them. The infinitesimal jiva has forgotten that he is an eternal servant of Krsna, and for this offense, maya, taking the form of a witch, punishes him. This material world is like a jail, and maya is the jailer who imprisons the estranged jivas and punishes them. A king constructs a prison for the benefit of his subjects, and in the same way, Bhagavan has shown His immense mercy towards the jivas by making this prison-like material world and appointing maya as its custodian.

 

 

 

If it were not so then we would have remained bereft of true spiritual life for eternity. The parents who love their child punish him to bring to the correct way; if they do not then the child becomes more bezerk and their love only becomes ignorance. As quoted above in the short term it seems painful, but in the long term it is auspicious especially considering that the entire stint in material world is infinitesemal compared to that in spiritual realm.

 

You said:

 

 

So knowing that people will follow in God's footsteps, why did He not set the right example, and the right example only for man to follow? i.e: no killing whatsoever, showing love and respect to others etc. etc.? Why did He have to add all these confusing and contradicting factors to it that make you doubt everything?

 

 

 

He does present the perfect examples. For this age of confusion, therefore, the pastimes of Lord Chaitanya are the most appropriate when He appears as the universal Guru. As neophytes some may not be able to relate with His pastimes in other avataars quite as well.

 

Honestly, I believe ISKCON is a valid branch of Hinduism, but its devotes seem to display the dogmatic and judgemental approach that is often found in the Abrahamic religions, which is what I find most disconcerting.

 

 

 

If you mean to be honest then be specific. A blanket statement like this only shows your own position which itself can be said to be dogmatic etc. People seem to be fond of throwing around words like "arrrogance", "bigotary", "hypocrisy" etc. for ISKCON without any justifications.

 

 

And don't be so ignorant to fall into a debate about semantics needlessly.

 

 

 

Its not just semantics. Saying that a person is hindu really does not tell anything about his philosophical or religious pratises apart from that he/she identifies with a particular group. It is much too loose a term; better word would be vaishnava or sanatana-dharma.

 

 

It's an amalgamation of different beliefs, yes, but all of that is done to seek the truth, to seek Brahman.

 

 

 

The more correct categorization would be those who accept the Vedas and follow the varnashrama dharma meaning the four social and four spiritual orders of life.

 

haribol

Duryodhana tried to kill bhima even as a child; he was envious of pandavas since their childhood.

 

 

Wrong. No one (and that includes Duryodhana) knew that Karna was a mighty archer, so there is no reason why Duryodhan would've made such calculations.

 

 

 

Duryodhana made friends with Karna when he had shown all the feats that Arjuna had, and also challanged Arjuna for a fight. So it can be concluded naturally that Duryodhana did all that after seeing the prowess of Karna.

 

Leaving all that apart he tried to strip his bhabhi before the entire assembly of elders etc. Even today the bhabhi is considered like a mother in many traditional homes in india; by any means he would be considered right there with the greatest scoundrals even by today's standards.

 

I guess one can find virtue in even the greatest criminal.