sumedh
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Pranams
Om Namah Bhagawate Vasudevaya!Infact, this satvic and tamasic purana categories have been heard in gaudiya sampradaya only. I never heard of this anywhere else. For example, what exactly makes the Shiva Mahapurana a tamasic purana?? Because Shiva is considered as tamasic by some ill-informed people? Because he is the destroyer of the Universe? But then he is the sustainer and creator too. He himself says this to Rama and Rama confirms it. And Krishna and Rama are both Vishnu avatars. Yes Vishnu had ten avataras and Krishna was the one in Dwapar Yuga. Of course he is the Bhagwan period. Wouldn't want to argue on that.
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First off there is no need to get angry. No one here said that Lord Shiva is tamasic, rather he is foremost vaishnava (Bhagavatam's "vaishnavam yatha shambhu").
Well, ignorance of our scriptures cannot be held as an excuse for criticizing gaudiyas. This division of Puranas is well known -- it is established in Madhavacharya's dvaita school well before gaudiyas. Sri Vijayindra Tirtha referred to it in his historic debate with Lingaraja.
It could have been an objection if this classification was given in Sattvic puranas, but this classification is given in Matsya and other puranas also. So the puranas (all of whom have been written by Srila Vyasadeva) classify themselves as sattvic/rajasic/tamasic. The meaning of this classification is simply that persons who are in predominantly sattvic mode should follow sattvic puranas etc.
Padma Purana (Uttara Khanda 236.18-21):
vaisnavanam naradiyam ca tatha bhagavatam subham
garudam ca tatha padmam varaham subha-darsane
sattvikani puranani vijneyani subhani vai
brahmandam brahma-vaivarta markandeyam tathaiva ca
bhavisyam vamanam brahmam rajasani nibodha me
matsyam kaurmam tatha laingam saivam skandam tathaiva ca
agneyam ca sad etani tamasani nibodha me
" O beautiful lady, one should know that the Visnu, Naradiya, Bhagavata, Garuda, Padma and Varaha are all in the mode of goodness. The Brahmanda, Brahma-vaivarta, Markandeya, Bhavisya, Vamana and Brahma are in the mode of passion. The Matsya, Kurma, Linga, Siva, Skanda and Agni are in the mode of ignorance."
Matsya Purana (53.65, 68-69)
pancangam ca puranam syad akhyanam itarat smrtam
sattvikesu ca kalpesu mahatmyam adhikam hareh
rajasesu ca mahatmyam adhikam brahmano viduh
tadvad agnes ca mahatmyam tamasesu sivasya ca
sankirnesu sarasvatyah pitrnam ca nigadyate
" A Purana consists of five elements, as opposed to an Akhyana. The sattvika Puranas glorify Hari; the rajasika Puranas glorify Brahma, and the tamasika Puranas glorify Siva and Agni. Puranas dealing with mixed modes of nature glorify Sarasvati and the fore-fathers."
Even the sattvic puranas sometimes have rajasic and tamasic portions (and conversely tamasic puranas have sattvic portions). In essence when the puranas follow the conclusions of sruti they are known to be sattvic and not otherwise.
Hare Krishna
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Pranams
Not meaning to obstruct the flow of discussion, i shall just add something...
There is another sense in which the soul is the non-doer. The soul (as well as the material energy) eternally depend on God and have no independent existence. In BG 3.27 Lord Krsna says that the actions are actually carried out by the material nature (which in turn depends on God) though the desire to do an action arises from the soul, but a conditioned soul mistakenly thinks that he is performing that action.
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Pranams
Jndas prabhuji, is there a reference to this incidence in Valmiki Ramayana? I have not seen any quote from Valmiki Ramayana mentioning this incidence rather elsewhere it is mentioned that this incidence does not appear in Valmiki Ramayana.
To the original poster:
This incidence is mentioned in Linga purana (and maybe others) and is explained in other puranas like varaha and kurma. In varaha purana (rudra-gita) Shiva seeks a boon from Lord Vishnu to be worshipped by Him in His incarnations. So this incidence should be seen as granting of the wish of His devotee similar to those of Devaki/Vasudeva, Arjuna etc.
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Idolatary means worshipping an imagination, an untrue thing or anything that is not God. In this respect all those who do not have perfect knowledge of God are idolaters to one degree or other. The "Sri Murti" of the Lord is an authorized representation of the Lord in accordance with the scriptures and so the omnipresent Lord accepts any service offered to the "Sri Murti". In fact, the Sri Murti is an incarnation -- just like shabd incarnation, of the Lord for this purpose only.
A jiva bound by maya has to perform Deity worship to learn how to serve, and to clear oneself of the dust of material life (in addition to chanting, following regulative principles etc.). This is the conclusion of Vedic scriptures and all vaishnava acharyas.
It seems that Christians, Muslims etc. are just touchy about this without any logic whatsoever, since in reality every type of worship of Lord can be shown to be idolatory -- i mean without the theory of avataara-vaada. Serving the Sri Murti is very powerful form of worship, but one has to be very careful in the service. Some argue that among the people Jesus, Mohammad etc. preached, no one was qualified to perform Deity worship and so they forbade it -- this is debatable.
Also see the other thread where Srila BhaktiVinoda Thakur replies to this question here:
http://www.audarya-fellowship.com/forums/spiritual-discussions/32570-diety-worship-idolatry.html
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Hare Krishna
Dvaita and dualism mean quite different things: in fact dvaita is not the proper word for Sripad Madhva's school -- it is properly called tattvavada.
Going by the normal definition of dualism, Gaudiya Vaishnavism is dualistist since it holds that God and jivas are individuals and are different from one another (i.e. there is an eternal bheda between jivas and God, between jivas themselves, between God and material nature etc.). The gaudiyas also hold abheda (non-difference) between God and jivas in the sense of parts of whole (but does not mean that whole is broken ...) but as separate individuals -- thus the achintya-bheda-abheda.
If you mean tattvavada (the normal meaning of Dvaita) then they worship Krishna as Supreme (in fact they worship bala-gopala) because in tattvavada Krishna and Vishnu, as also all the avataars of Vishnu are completely identical (this is also what gaudiyas believe). One of their famous gurus Sripad Vadiraja Tirtha worshipped the Hayagriva incarnation.
Difference in gaudiyas on this point is that gaudiyas also consider rasa-bheda in different incarnations of Krishna, meaning the kind of spiritual relationships that jivas can have with an incarnation, and in that the relationship with Krishna as the most intimate and most desirable. Also, gaudiyas consider Krishna in Vrindavana as the original Form of the Lord and source of all other Forms even though all the Forms of the Lord are Eternal (so the source is not in the sense of having come into existence rather using eternal Sun analogy, that all Forms can be eternal still have source) -- the madhvas strongly disagree with this.
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There is no mention of meat-eating by those in that age in the scriptures.
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to be able to follow these it is essential to follow the other principles viz. chanting, associating with devotees etc.
Haribol
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Hare Krishna
please accept my pranams
To this the most beautiful answer i ever read is by Srila Ramakrishnananda:
walter:
Dear Master, I would like to know what is your opinion about people who were born disabled?
You are probably asking yourself what is the reason for my question.... well, I have a daughter that was born disabled. I am always asking myself "why"... I don't except it.
I don't understand why.
Everyone is telling me that I'm wrong .... I don't know maybe I am, maybe I'm not.
That is why I would like to know your opinion about the subject; it is very difficult for me and on the same topic, do you have any children? Dear Master?Peace and spiritual harmony- to you Master of life.
Thank You.
Ramakrishnananda Swami:
I offer my humble obeisances unto the lotus feet of my paramaradhya (most worshipable) Srila Gurudeva, nitya-lila-pravista om visnupada Sri Srimad His Divine Grace Gracia Srila Bhakti Alok Paramadveiti Swami Maharaja. I offer the same unto my siksa-guru, nitya-lila-pravista om visnupada Sri Srimad Narahari das Babaji Maharaja and unto the lotus feet of our whole guru-parampara. I offer my puspanjali unto their lotus feet.
We have created a utilitarian society, where a human being is nothing more than simple merchandise, sold by the hour…
What we call "work" is nothing more than selling hours of our lives in order to fill our bellies…
We learn and prepare ourselves to acquire more qualities and properties that will get us a better price on society's market.
Schools and universities, with their certificates and diplomas are like quality tags, allowing us to get a higher price… something more elevated.
But the terrible problem is that we are wondering around in life not communicating with human beings, but with products. To each and every one of them we set a determined price...
In a world where the only importance is your utility, how difficult it has become to love… your price is set according to your beauty, intelligence, and skills… according to your ability to be useful... to be utilized...
We put canaries and nightingales in cages, and we charge a price according to their usefulness... Fortunate enough, they do not understand our illness… our disability... if they would understand; the sadness in their hearts would stop them from singing…
"WHAT IS YOUR OPINION ABOUT PEOPLE WHO WERE BORN DISABLED?"
Walter… for me there is only one disability… lack of ability to love...
Our disability to open our hearts and appreciate the other, not only in relation to his utility… the disability of seeing people just as merchandise, objects intended to give us pleasure and comfort.
Children are not born disabled…. It is us, by the way we were trained by a utilitarian society that have have lost our natural ability to accept and appreciate ourselves… to honor beings not as objects with a certain price and a determined quality set according to your necessity.
I have 3 children and one memory…
I say memory, because a few years ago a tender and sweet flower was born to me, with little usefulness perhaps, and with a lot of health problems… she lived for 2 years and then finally passed away... in that time laps, between hospitals and suffering, that girl allowed me to get rid of my disability... she expanded my ability to love.
Walter, believe me, being enlightened is not a matter of knowledge or mystic experiences, it is about loving more and more, day after day.
I send you my humble blessings, that your daughter will overcome each and every problem, but first of all my blessing is to you, that you'll be able to stop seeing your daughter, life, and yourself and others as something useful… as a packet of cigarettes, as a beer can or a notebook to take notes.
Humanity and its way of perceiving people, does not allow us to express our ability to love…
I know that it is difficult… difficult not because of you Walter… but because we were trained only to buy, rent and sell!... to get a value! To set and categorize others according to their rate... we go through the world with that small machine that pastes price labels… pasting them on others, and that which we call "human relationships".
How sad!!... We feel so threatened when another product is put on display next to us… another object with a higher price.
We feel the fear of losing the customer… fear that our value will drop.
Always remember ... love isn't a comfort, love isn't useful.
I don't love you because you are convenient... no, no, no... Loving you can be a huge inconvenience... I don't love you because you are useful... no, no, no...
We love, because love is our natural song. It is the essence of our life.
Didn't you notice yourself the moment you loved? ... How alive you were?
You think that life it difficult and unfair... no Walter, it is wonderful… But it doesn't always understand our illusory foolishness.
I admire Mother Teresa. Do you know why?
Not because she helped disabled children. No!
She truly helped parents, she helped us - a sick humanity... she helped thousands of parents and an incapacitated society to love.
It is written in the bible, "LOVE THY NEIGHBOR AS YOU LOVE THY SELF"… and I say to you, be careful!... because you'll be able to perceive the other, only as you perceive yourself... If you see yourself as cheap merchandise, it will be impossible for you to love. Products fight, compete and get sold... it is sad but they are also being dumped... to the trash bin or to "elderly citizen's home"... when their utility is expired...
Products might have value, but have no soul. They have no heart... they do not cry...they do not suffer; they do not feel... it is possible to store and to reduce their value… according to their utility. As much as you serve, that’s your value.
Do you know why humanity never accepted masters in good spirits? Because they are not comfortable, because they are the ones who object to see humanity as preservative cans. Masters do not accept this game in which you are being asked to be a basic product... Because in this huge market of ambitions, wars, exploitation, competitions, we are so inconvenient... inconvenient to man and his society...
A master is the sound of a bubbling brook...
A sunset, the sound of the river does not join any political party; you can't even send them to fight a war...
In short, sincerely, what can this poor society do with them? They are not useful.
What have they got to teach?
Only the art of smiling... the profession of flying... the skill of listening to the wind… the gift of ingenuousness… the doctorate of star gazing whilst strolling on the she shore... only such similar professions.
Now tell me why wouldn't they want to kill you?
A Master is one of those things like a night lightened by a full moon, which helps so much but at the same time is so useless...
Your daughter is a star, a sunset; who can help you tremendously even though being useless.
Hari Bol!, and a huge hug my friend... I call you a friend even though I found no real use in you... and if I would have found, I would have doubted if our friendship is true...
I'm not sure if you understand what I am saying in this moment...
But only by getting close to someone, who has no use to us, someone who gives us nothing but inconvenience, One can learn true love.
This daughter is a star! A flower! ... Disabled? No my dear Walter ... the disabled, the handicapped, the limited are us.
We are a sick society in which even a tear is no more than a weakness.
Farewell, and remember always: what turns us into true humans, is exactly those things we love, respect and accept, even if it is not for their use…
Hari Bol!
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Hare Krishna
please accept my pranams
The verse is spoken by Brahman Himself, not by anyone else -- see the context in 1.4: so applying this to jivas would be arbitrary.
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Hare Krishna
These verses are about the vibhuti (opulences) of the Lord. So the Lord also says that He is the concluding vak in a debate and so on, which does not mean that Krishna is just a material vak etc.
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Hare Krishna
Very true, so apply the same to yourself and recognize God but not from the imaginations of lekhraj.the moral drawn from that story is that the knowledge of scriptures (like the Ravan) is not a licence to recognize God. Only devotion and love for God (like Ahilya & Shabari) is required to recognize Him.
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Dear roohani sevadhari
Hare Krishna
you said:
This world is "dukhalayam" and not suitable for the spirit soul. That one can make a heaven in this world is only self-deception.How many acharyas and religious fathers are required to transform the world?
you said:
Which is not completely correct. For example the Rg Veda says the following about the churning of the ocean:It is famous in the scriptures that when poison and nectar emerged from the churning of ocean by deities and demons, then everyone was eager to drink the nectar to become imperishable, but nobody wanted to drink the poison. It was only Shiv-Shankar bholeynath, who came forward to drink the poison and was thus called neelkanth.
keshi-sukta in Rgveda (10.136...)
vAyurasmA upAmanthat.h pinashhTismA kunannamA
keshI vishhasya pAtreNa yad.hrudreNApibat.hsaha
It says that Vayu actually drank the most of it, crushed and reduced the vigour of the remaining portions and gave it to Shiva.
There is more to it that after drinking it Lord Shiva became unconscious and regained consciousness by the touch of Lord Hari.
This is not to diminish the greatness of Lord Shiva in anyway (for the poison is described as being so strong that even the sight of it was deadly), who is called the greatest vaishnava (vaishnavam yatha shambhu -- Srimad Bhagavatam).
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Hare Krishna
roohani sevadhari said:
Even though this is a foolish argument, it is not even correct. Sada-Shiva is originally one of the Names of Lord Vishnu. Read the shruti which says that Lord Vishnu gives His Names to the devas including shiva et all. This signifies that all the powers etc. that reside in the devas are actually the attributes of the Supreme Lord Narayana and belong to Him.God is one and His original name is also one, i.e. Shiva, which means kalyaankaari or benefactor. He is the only one with whose name the word "Sada", i.e. Forever is prefixed. This means that He is Sada Shiv, the only one who is forever benefactor.
For example:
"nAmAni vishvA.abhi na santi loke yadAvirAsIdanR^itasya sarvam.h
nAmAni sarvAni yamAvishanti taM vai viShNuM paramamudAharanti"
says that only Vishnu is the primary referrent of all Names. The ambhrani sukta also rules out the theory that Vishnu and Shiva are different forms of the same Being because there is stated that She (viz. Lakshmi) can make anyone as Shiva, Brahma etc. as She chooses and that the source of Her power is Lord Vishnu. (the skanda purana gives an idea of the difference using drop/deluge etc. and says that as Lord Vishnu is infinite the difference which separates Him from all the rest including Shiva/Brahma is infinite)
So the problem is that you do not have the fundamentals right. All the Vedas, Upanishads (and of course Gita) say that the Lord Vishnu is the Supreme Lord. So far you have not produced a single evidence (from pramanas) that your god even exists, what to say of being God.
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Dear roohani sevadhari
Hare Krishna
you said:
This only shows that your teacher has made you handicapped as regards the brain. Since your god does not exist except in your imaginations it is aptly called "your god".Your question as to "what was your god doing" proves how human gurus have made their disciples so narrowminded as to speak of your God and my God.
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Dear roohani sevadhari
Hare Krishna
you said:
As for the acharyas there is no doubt in anyone's (anyone sensible) mind. But this doubt is appropriate for lekhraj and followers. Furthermore, dont try to impose your lack of knowledge upon others; you do not know does not mean that others also do not know.How would one know if one has reached the Supreme Abode after death or has taken rebirth? People of so many religions and sects say that their leaders have gone to the Supreme Abode. But how do we know if they have gone to that abode or have taken rebirth?
roohani sevadhari said:
Because animal and human souls are not different according to scriptures, but your irrational beliefs make you think otherwise.If people have been going to the Supreme Abode permanently then the human population should decrease, but it is increasing.
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Dear roohani sevadhari
Hare Krishna
you said:
This proves that not many people have been following the acharyas which is a simple fact, rather bogus persons and philosophies. This phenomenon has expanded more and more in this century with everyone coming up with his/her own version of truth. Also is the fact that in such a chaotic situation the only succour was provided by the bhakti movement. The Katha Upanishad compares walking on the path of Truth to a razor's edge so it does not seem that many will actually travel that path.The proof for the fact that we could not understand the true meaning of the scriptures is that the world has been continuously degrading despite several scriptures including the sanskrit Gita being written by several human beings and several interpretations of the same by various other human beings. How can we say that all those who have interpreted Gita in different ways are true teachers when the world has been witnessing downfall continuously and quickly.
Ask yourself as to why even after reading so many things about Sri Krishna you think Him to be ordinary. Actually Lord Krishna calls such persons "mudhah" or fools not just ordinary persons.But since he comes in an ordinary form, most of the people cannot recognize him and keep waiting for a miraculous and attractive form like Shri Krishna. If God comes in an attractive form like Shri Krishna and performs miracles like him the everyone would easily recognize him. Then how will the shloka of Gita prove relevant which says that God comes in an ordinary form and the ignorant people cannot recognize him?
As for recognizing the Lord goes the Srimad-Bhagavatam is very unambiguous about the yuga-avataara of Kali-yuga where Karbhajana Muni describes the Yuga avataaras of each of the yugas to King Nimi.
From Srimad-Bhagavatam
So now you should know that the yuga-dharma of Kali-yuga according to the scriptures is the congregational chanting of the Holy Names of Krishna.11.5.31
iti dvapara urv-isa
stuvanti jagad-isvaram
nana-tantra-vidhanena
kalav api tatha srinu
TRANSLATION
O King, in this way people in Dvapara-yuga glorified the Lord of the universe. In Kali-yuga also people worship the Supreme Personality of Godhead by following various regulations of the revealed scriptures. Now kindly hear of this from me.
11.5.32
krishna-varnam tvishakrishnam
sangopangastra-parshadam
yajnaih sankirtana-prayair
yajanti hi su-medhasah
TRANSLATION
In the age of Kali, intelligent persons perform congregational chanting to worship the incarnation of Godhead who constantly sings the names of Krishna. Although His complexion is not blackish, He is Krishna Himself. He is accompanied by His associates, servants, weapons and confidential companions.
11.5.33
dhyeyam sada paribhava-ghnam abhishta-doham
tirthaspadam siva-virinci-nutam saranyam
bhrityarti-ham pranata-pala bhavabdhi-potam
vande maha-purusha te caranaravindam
TRANSLATION
My dear Lord, You are the Maha-purusha, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and I worship Your lotus feet, which are the only eternal object of meditation. Those feet destroy the embarrassing conditions of material life and freely award the greatest desire of the soul, the attainment of pure love of Godhead. My dear Lord, Your lotus feet are the shelter of all holy places and of all saintly authorities in the line of devotional service and are honored by powerful demigods like Lord Siva and Lord Brahma. My Lord, You are so kind that You willingly protect all those who simply bow down to You with respect, and thus You mercifully relieve all the distress of Your servants. In conclusion, my Lord, Your lotus feet are actually the suitable boat for crossing over the ocean of birth and death, and therefore even Lord Brahma and Lord Siva seek shelter at Your lotus feet."
11.5.34
tyaktva su-dustyaja-surepsita-rajya-lakshmim
dharmishtha arya-vacasa yad agad aranyam
maya-mrigam dayitayepsitam anvadhavad
vande maha-purusha te caranaravindam
TRANSLATION
O Maha-purusha, I worship Your lotus feet. You gave up the association of the goddess of fortune and all her opulence, which is most difficult to renounce and is hankered after by even the great demigods. Being the most faithful follower of the path of religion, You thus left for the forest in obedience to a brahmana's curse. Out of sheer mercifulness You chased after the fallen conditioned souls, who are always in pursuit of the false enjoyment of illusion, and at the same time engaged in searching out Your own desired object, Lord Syamasundara.
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Hare Krishna and dandavats
I do not know how would you apply this to Srila BhaktiSiddhanta Saraswati.Without Srila Prabhupada there would be no Gurus, period.
Srila Prabhupada is the father of all Gurus, and Lord Krishna is the supreme Guru.
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Hare Krishna
More speculations. These terms mean a specific thing which are only present in their pure form in the vishuddha-sattva (i.e. pure goodness), not in the sattva-rajas-tamas of the material world. In fact the material world being a perverted reflection of the spiritual world, these are found in a distorted manner in this world and their opposite duals are more prominent viz. asat, achid and nirananda because this world is not sat (things are created/destroyed), lack of knowledge (a jiva in this world is due to lack of knowledge of its true nature) and nirananda (there is no happiness here and the jiva mistakes sensual happiness for happiness which is actually opposed to the nature of the soul).When the Lord is said sat it mens truth. Is there falsehood in the supreme abode? Chit means living. Is there death in the supreme abode? Anand is bliss so is there misery in the supreme abode? The point is all these qualities can be shown here on earth.
There are different levels of answer to this question. Normally one would say after leaving the body.When should this supreme abode be reached? Before leaving the body or after leaving the body?
good so now we agree that you do not consider Gita as a scripture. Amazing that the said human being in question not only put the name of Krishna (instead of Shiva) in Bhagavad-Gita in your opinion, but did so with each and every vedic scripture. By the way, what was your god doing in that period when someone replaced all instances of his name with that of Krishna.It is just that the gita you quote may not be correct. God may have spoken it but Human being must have written it and falsified it, putting the name of Krishna instead of Shiva.
It may just be that your supposed god does not exist and lekhraj was a cheater.It is just that the gita you quote may not be correct.
Anyway, as i said your repititions of the speculations of lekhraj are of no interest to us.
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Hare Krishna and dandavats
We glorify the acharyas in various ways, but comparing them is really not proper. No acharya would agree to this, saying one acharya surpassed others even if we can see that he had had the greatest impact. This is what i feel.
haribol
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There are pramanas (from vedic scriptures) for each and every statement i wrote. But there is no point in presenting them to you.
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Hare Krishna
These are your speculations. This is what the Lord says:There are tree abodes. One is incorporeal where souls stay stable in peace. Second is subtle and third is material. If it is a cycle and the soul finally goes to the supreme abode, than this should be the abode where the soul initially comes from. Land of Krishna can be called beautifull but it should be on earth /land/.
Bhagavad-Gita 8.15
This world is "dukhalayam". Why? Because the four stages of birth, disease, old age and death are everywhere which are a source of misery. In addition the three kinds of material afflictions (adhyAtmika, Adibhautika, Adidaivika) are always troubling the jivas. The material world is a mismatch for the spiritual self. The origin of the jiva souls is in the tatastha region i.e. the marginal region between the spiritual and material worlds, which is not a stable position and the jivas go to either the material world or to the spiritual world.mam upetya punar janma
duhkhalayam asasvatam
napnuvanti mahatmanah
samsiddhim paramam gatah
After attaining Me, the great souls, who are yogis in devotion, never return to this temporary world, which is full of miseries, because they have attained the highest perfection.
So there are indeed three abodes: spiritual, material and marginal. But the marginal one is not a resting place. The way you categorize it, there are 14 levels of material and subtle lokas in the material worlds while in the spiritual world there are unlimited spiritual "planets" each of which is infinite. In the spiritual world there is also the siddha-loka which is the effulgence of the Lord outside of the spiritual "planets".
There are no dual qualities in the spiritual realm; only bliss and its infinite variegatedness. The nature of Lord and His abode is sat-cid-ananda which incidently does not mean nothing or zero or "nirakaar". Why is this so difficult to understand? Are you always so dense.There is no question of beauty and ugliness, happindess and sorrow in the supreme abode. If the Lord too were subservient to matter to become ugly from beautifull and experience happiness and sorrow what kind of a Lord is he.
roohani sevadhari said:
Read the previous quotes regarding the nature of the Lord's abode e.g. it is Eternal etc. which is not the case with the material world. This is the version of the scriptures accepted by all authorities whose words have been tested by millions of humans. Many, many devotees have seen the abode of the Lord which is still manifest to the pure devotees in this life itself. There are many accounts of this but of no relevance to you for you would not be interested.Where is this beautiful world of your Lord. Has anyone seen it? Muslims and Christians also describe a heaven that exists beyond the seven skies. Is your heaven the same as the heaven described by the Muslims and Christians? Are the heavens of Muslims, Christians and Hindus different? Why do we sing - swarga yahaan, narka yahaan, iskay siva jaana kahaan i.e. heaven is here, hell is here, where else do we go?
The heaven mentioned in christians/muslims is not beyond the seven skies, but from the descriptions seems to be one of bhuvah/svah lokas; the kingdom of God mentioned in Bible could be same as vaikuntha but it is not possible that normal christians/muslims would go to heavens or vaikuntha because of the animal killing they indulge in. And i do not sing the song you mentioned which is from a movie, so the rest of post has no relevance to me.
So the abode of Lord (tad vishnoh paramam padam: Rg Veda) is the ultimate destination for a jiva which is eternal. Of course, in the gaudiya theology the ultimate is unadulterated causeless devotional service to the Lord independent of where the devotee is. Take it or leave it; do not bore us with your speculations.
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Hare Krishna
Ambiguity is because you have been following bogus teachers. Anyway, i will not carry on this any further than for it is clear that you have an agenda rather than trying to understand scriptures.
Simply because His birth is for show only. If you would have read previous quotes then it would have been obvious.How can the one who has taken many births (i.e. Shri Krishna) be called as unborn or beginningless?
From Srimad Bhagavatam 11.31.11
My dear King, you should understand that the Supreme Lord's appearance and disappearance, which resemble those of embodied conditioned souls, are actually a show enacted by His illusory energy, just like the performance of an actor. After creating this universe He enters into it, plays within it for some time, and at last winds it up. Then the Lord remains situated in His own transcendental glory, having ceased from the functions of cosmic manifestation.
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whatever you want to. But if you make noise that you are following the scriptures, or that the historical evidence or logic supports the theory then the brahmakumars should be ready to be exposed as frauds. So be honest and just say "we have our own philosophy which is not from the scriptures nor supported by historical evidence". The interesting thing is that not even one tenet of your philosophy finds support in the scriptures -- really quite an achievement.
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Hare Krishna
guest said:
which is the Eternal abode of the Lord. Why is there any confusion in this regard? You think that Lord's abode is devoid of "beauty" or varigedness while the exact opposite is true; there are so many descriptions of the Lord's abode which describe how the most beautiful things of material world are insignificant in comparison to it.E.G. not return to the miserly world may mean one will return to a beautifull world.
then you said:
It is your misconception that the soul rests or needs any rest. The Eternal abode of the Lord is completely transcendental sat-cid-ananda where the jiva souls eternally engage with the Lord in Transcendental bliss in their original svarupa; the tiring of the body etc. are only in the material world while the soul itself never gets tired nor needs rest nor is inactive for even a moment in the spiritual realm. The resting and coming back is only goes on as long as the soul is enclosed in the subtle body in this material world. More quotes in this regard will not be useful at this point. Suffice to say that the material worlds are only a faint perverted reflections of the spiritual realm which is the region of true beauty.Just think of a runner who runs arround in the stadium. At first he is full of power, later he weakens and finally the run is over. However it cannot be said the aim of his running is to stop. Surely one will need rest as we souls after running arround the cycle got tired. Rest is Ok. After resting in the supreme abode, one is to enjoy heaven on earth and all of this whilst the soul is in the body.
Shiva and Krsna
in The Hare Krishna Forum
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Pranams
Please provide evidence for this statement.
This categarization is given in the Puranas themselves. Also note that any puranic statement that is opposed to Vedas is not accepted. The upanishads (those that are authentic) are, of course, sruti and there is no categorization among them.
Srila Vedavyasa composed the Mahabharata (including Gita) for all the persons with lesser understanding who would be unable to understand the Vedas, which would including almost all the people in the current age.
It is certainly not a norm for the Lord. These instances are cases of the Lord granting the wishes of his devotee The varaha purana (rudra-gita portion) and others (like kurma) describe that Shiva obtained the boon from Vishnu of being worshipped by Him in His incarnations.
The vedas praise other devatas (Indra, Vayu, Agni ...) in as highly exalted terms as Shiva but their worship is meant for satisfaction of Vishnu (Yajna refers to Vishnu); in other words the devataas are to be worshipped in proper understanding and not considering them to be independent supremes.
Realization of anyone is not accepted as an evidence in any of the vedanta schools, otherwise there would be no end to unverifiable claims.
And exactly how do you venture to determine whether someone has realized the Supreme Truth given that there are numerous instances in our scriptures where even the greatest rishis have been deluded (and Krishna says that only a very, very rare soul knows the Supreme Truth).
Well, it is not wrong but that it gives different results. See Bhagavad-Gita 9.23
Also refer to BG 7.23, 8.16, 10.2, 14.14-14.18 etc.
Hare Krishna