Interesting conversation,..
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The Quest for Enlightenment (excerpt)
6. Discussions on Western Philosophy and Science
Carl Jung: Seeker Without a Guide
Carl Jung (1865-1961) was a student of Freud who broke with him and began his own school of psychiatry. He is best known for his work in exploring the unconscious and for championing the importance of philosophy, religion, and mysticism in understanding the human mind.
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Disciple: Psychologists say that quite often the subconscious is acting through the conscious, but that we do not know it.
Srila Prabhupada: Yes. The subconscious is there, but it is not always manifest. Sometimes a thought suddenly becomes manifest, just as a bubble will suddenly emerge in a pond. You may not be able to understand why it emerges, but we may assume that it was in the subconscious state and suddenly became manifest. That subconscious thought which is manifest does not necessarily have any connection with one's present consciousness. It is like a stored impression, a shadow or a photograph. The mind takes many snapshots, and they are stored.
Disciple: Jung could see that the soul is always longing for light, and he wrote of the urge within the soul to rise out of darkness. He noted the pent-up feeling in the eyes of primitive people and a certain sadness in the eyes of animals. He wrote, "There is a sadness in animals' eyes, and we never know whether that sadness is bound up with the soul of the animal or is a poignant message which speaks to us out of that existence."
Srila Prabhupada: Yes. Every living entity, including man, is constitutionally a servant. Therefore everyone is seeking some master, and that is our natural propensity. You can often see a puppy attempt to take shelter of some boy or man, and that is his natural tendency. He is saying, "Give me shelter. Keep me as your friend." A child or a man also wants some shelter in order to be happy. That is our constitutional position. When we attain the human form, when our consciousness is developed, we should take Krsna as our shelter and our leader. In the Bhagavad-gita Krsna tells us that if we want shelter and guidance, we should take His. Sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam Saranam vraja [bg. 18.66]. This is the ultimate instruction of the Bhagavad-gita.
Disciple: Jung would say that our understanding of Krsna as the supreme father and the cause of all causes is an archetypal understanding shared by all humans. All people have the tendency to understand someone to be their supreme father and primal cause, and they will represent Him in different ways. The archetype, however, is the same.
Srila Prabhupada: Yes, it is exactly the same. Krsna, or God, is the supreme father. A father has many sons, and all men are sons of God, born of their father. This is an experience common to everyone at all times.
Disciple: Jung believed that because there are so many subconscious factors governing our personality, we must awaken to them. Unless we do so, we are more or less slaves to our subconscious life. The point of psychoanalysis is to reveal as many aspects of our subconscious life as possible and enable us to face them.
Srila Prabhupada: That is what we are teaching. We say that presently the soul is in a sleeping state, and we are telling the soul, "Please wake up! Please wake up! You are not this body! You are not this body!" It is possible to awaken the human being, but other living entities cannot be awakened. A tree, for instance, has consciousness, but he is so packed in matter that you cannot raise him to Krsna consciousness. A human being, on the other hand, has developed consciousness, which is manifest in different stages. Lower life forms are more or less in a dream state.
Disciple: Whereas Freud was sexually oriented, Jung was more or less spiritually oriented. In his autobiography-Memories, Dreams, Reflections-Jung writes, "I find that all my thoughts circle around God like the planets around the sun, and are as irresistibly attracted by Him. I would feel it to be the grossest sin if I were to put up any resistance to this force." Jung sees all creatures as parts of God and at the same time unique in themselves. He writes, "Man cannot compare himself with any other creature; he is not a monkey, not a cow, not a tree. I am a man. But what is it to be that? Like every other being, I am a splinter of the infinite Deity ..."
Srila Prabhupada: It is also our philosophy that we are part and parcel of God, just as sparks are part of a fire.
Disciple: Jung further writes in his autobiography, "It was obedience which brought me grace... One must be utterly abandoned to God; nothing matters but fulfilling His will. Otherwise, all is folly and meaningless."
Srila Prabhupada: Very good. Surrender unto God is real spiritual life. Sarva-dharman parityajya [bg. 18.66]. Surrender to God means accepting that which is favorable to God and rejecting that which is unfavorable. The devotee is always convinced that God will give him all protection. He remains humble and meek and thinks himself as one of the members of God's family. This is real spiritual communism. Communists think, "I am a member of a certain community," but it is a man's duty to think, "I am a member of God's family." God is the supreme father, material nature is the mother, and living entities are all sons of God. There are living entities everywhere-on land and in the air and water. There is no doubt that material nature is the mother, and according to our experience we can understand that a mother cannot produce a child without a father. It is absurd to think that a child can be born without a father. A father must be there, and the supreme father is God. In Krsna consciousness, a person understands that the creation is a spiritual family headed by one supreme father.
Disciple: Concerning God's personality, Jung writes this: "According to the Bible, God has a personality and is the ego of the universe, just as I myself am the ego of my psychic and physical being."
Srila Prabhupada: Yes. The individual is conscious of his own body, but not of the bodies of others. Besides the individual soul or consciousness in the body, there is the Paramatma, the Supersoul, the superconsciousness present in everyone's heart. This is discussed in Bhagavad-gita [13.3]:
ksetra-jnam capi mam viddhi sarva-ksetresu bharata
ksetra-ksetrajnayor jnanam yat taj jnanam matam mama
"You should understand that I am also the knower in all bodies, and to understand this body and its knower is called knowledge."
Disciple: Recalling his difficulties in understanding God's personality, Jung writes, "Here I encountered a formidable obstacle. Personality, after all, surely signifies character. Now, character is one thing and not another; that is to say, it involves certain specific attributes. But if God is everything, how can He still possess a distinguishable character?... What kind of character or what kind of personality does He have?"
Srila Prabhupada: God's character is transcendental, not material, and thus He has attributes. For instance, He is very kind to His devotee, and this kindness may be considered one of His characteristics or attributes. Whatever qualities or characteristics we have are but minute manifestations of God's. God is the origin of all attributes and characteristics. As indicated in the Sastra [scriptures], He also has mind, senses, feelings, sense perception, sense gratification, and everything else. Everything is there unlimitedly, and since we are part and parcel of God, we possess His qualities in minute quantities. The original qualities are in God and are manifest minutely in ourselves.
According to the Vedas God is a person, but His personality is unlimited. Just as my consciousness is limited to this body and His consciousness is the superconsciousness within every body, so I am a person confined to this particular body and He is the superperson living within all. As Krsna tells Arjuna in the Bhagavad-gita [2.12], the personality of God and the personalities of the individual souls are eternally existing. Krsna tells Arjuna on the battlefield, "Never was there a time when I did not exist, nor you, nor all these kings, nor in the future shall any of us cease to be." Both God and the living entity are eternally persons, but God's personality is unlimited and the individual's personality is limited. God has unlimited power, wealth, fame, knowledge, beauty, and renunciation. We have limited, finite power, knowledge, fame, and so on. That is the difference between the two personalities.
Disciple:: Jung found that philosophies and theologies could not give him a clear picture of God's personality. He writes this: "'What is wrong with these philosophers?' I wondered-evidently, they know of God only by hearsay."
Srila Prabhupada: Yes, that is also our complaint. The philosophers we have studied have failed to give any clear idea of God. Because they are speculating, they cannot give concrete, clear information. As far as we are concerned, our understanding of God is clear because we simply receive the information given to the world by God Himself. Krsna is accepted as the Supreme Person by Vedic authorities; therefore we should have no reason not to accept Him as such. Narayana, Lord Siva, and Lord Brahma possess different percentages of God's attributes, but Krsna possesses all the attributes cent percent, in totality. Rupa Gosvami has analyzed this in his Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu, which we have translated as The Nectar of Devotion.
In any case, God is a person, and if we study man's attributes, we can also know something of God's. Just as we enjoy ourselves with friends, parents, and others, God also enjoys Himself in various relationships. There are five primary and seven secondary relationships that the living entities can have with God. Since the living entities take pleasure in these relationships, God is described as akhila-rasamrta-sindhu, the reservoir of all pleasure. There is no need to speculate about God or to try to imagine Him. The process for understanding is described by Lord Krsna in the Bhagavad-gita [7.1]:
mayy asakta-manah partha yogam yunjan mad-asrayah
asamsayam samagram mam yatha jnasyasi tac chrnu
"Now hear, O Arjuna, how by practicing yoga in full consciousness of Me, with mind attached to Me, you can know Me in full, free from doubt." You can learn about God by always keeping yourself under His protection, or under the protection of His representative. Then without a doubt you can perfectly understand God; otherwise there is no question of understanding Him.
Disciple: Jung goes on to point out the difference between theologians and philosophers. He writes, "At least they [the theologians] are sure that God exists, even though they make contradictory statements about Him... God's existence does not depend on our proofs... I understand that God was, for me at least, one of the most certain and immediate of experiences."
Srila Prabhupada: Yes, that is a transcendental conviction. One may not know God, but it is very easy to understand that God is there. One has to learn about God's nature, but there is no doubt about the fact that God is there. Any sane man can understand that he is being controlled. So who is that controller? The supreme controller is God. This is the conclusion of a sane man. Jung is right when he says that God's existence does not depend on our proof.
Disciple: Jung continues to recall his early spiritual quests in this way: "In my darkness... I could have wished for nothing better than a real, live guru, someone possessing superior knowledge and ability, who would have disentangled me from the involuntary creations of my imagination."
Srila Prabhupada: Yes. According to the Vedic instructions, in order to acquire perfect knowledge, one must have a guru. Tad vijnanartham sa gurum evabhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. The guru must factually be a representative of God. He must have seen and experienced God in fact, not simply in theory. We have to approach such a guru, and by service, surrender, and sincere inquiry we can come to understand God. The Vedas inform us that a person can understand God when he has received a little mercy from His Lordship; otherwise, one may speculate for millions and millions of years. As Krsna states in the Bhagavad-gita [18.55], bhaktya mam abhijanati: "One can understand Me as I am, as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, only by devotional service." This process of bhakti includes Sravanam kirtanam visnoh [sB 7.5.23]-hearing and chanting about Lord Visnu [Krsna] and always remembering Him. Satatam kirtayanto mam: [bg. 9.14] the devotee is always glorifying the Lord. As Prahlada Maharaja says in Srimad-Bhagavatam [7.9.43]:
naivodvije para duratyaya-vaitaranyas
tvad-virya-gayana-mahamrta-magna-cittah
"O best of the great personalities, I am not at all afraid of material existence, for wherever I stay I am fully absorbed in thoughts of Your glories and activities."
The devotee's consciousness is always drowned in the ocean of the unlimited pastimes and qualities of the Supreme Lord. That is transcendental bliss. The spiritual master teaches his disciple how to always remain in the ocean of God consciousness. One who works under the directions of the acarya, the spiritual master, knows everything about God.
Disciple: In 1938 Jung was invited by the British government to participate in celebrations at the University of Calcutta. Of this Jung writes, "By that time, I had read a great deal about Indian philosophy and religious history and was deeply convinced of the value of Oriental wisdom." On this visit, Jung spoke with a celebrated guru, yet he avoided so-called holy men. He writes, "I did so because I had to make do with my own truth, not to accept from others what I could not attain on my own. I would have felt it as a theft had I attempted to learn from the holy men to accept their truth for myself."
Srila Prabhupada: On the one hand, he says he wants a guru, and then on the other, he doesn't want to accept one. Doubtlessly there were many so-called gurus in Calcutta, and Jung might have seen some bogus gurus he did not like. In any case, the principle of accepting a guru cannot be avoided. It is absolutely necessary.
Disciple: Concerning consciousness after death, Jung feels that after death the individual must pick up at the level of consciousness which he left.
Srila Prabhupada: Yes, and therefore, according to that consciousness, one has to accept a body. That is the process of the soul's transmigration. An ordinary person can see only the gross material body, but accompanying this body are the mind, intelligence, and ego. When the body is finished, these remain, although they cannot be seen. A foolish man thinks that everything is finished at death. But the soul carries with it the mind, intelligence, and ego-that is, the subtle body-into another body. This is confirmed by the Bhagavad-gita, which clearly explains that although the body is destroyed the consciousness continues. According to one's consciousness, one acquires another body, and again, in that body, the consciousness begins to mold its future lives. If a person was a devotee in his past life, he will again become a devotee after his death. Once the material body is destroyed, the same consciousness begins to work in another body. Consequently we find that some people quickly accept Krsna consciousness whereas others take a longer time. This indicates that the consciousness is continuing, although the body is changing. Bharata Maharaja, for instance, changed many bodies, but his consciousness continued, and he remained fully Krsna conscious.
We may see a person daily, but we cannot visualize his intelligence. We can understand that a person is intelligent, but we cannot see intelligence itself. When one talks, we can understand that there is intelligence at work. But why should we conclude that when the gross body is dead and no longer capable of talking, the intelligence is finished? The instrument for speech is the gross body, but we should not conclude that when the gross body is finished, intelligence is also finished. Na hanyate hanyamane Sarire: [bg. 2.20] after the destruction of the gross body, the mind and intelligence continue. Because they require a body to function, they develop a body, and that is the process of the soul's transmigration.
Disciple: Jung felt that the individual's level of consciousness could not supersede whatever knowledge is available on this planet.
Srila Prabhupada: No. One can supersede it, provided one can acquire knowledge from the proper authority. You may not have seen India, but a person who has seen India can describe it to you. We may not be able to see Krsna, but we can learn of Him from an authority who knows. In the Bhagavad-gita [8.20] Krsna tells Arjuna that there is an eternal nature. On this earth we encounter temporary nature. Here things take birth, remain for some time, change, grow old, and are finally destroyed. There is dissolution in this material world, but there is another world, in which there is no dissolution. We have no personal experience of that world, but we can understand that it exists when we receive information from the proper authority. It is not necessary to know it by personal experience. There are different stages of knowledge, and not all knowledge can be acquired by direct perception. That is not possible.
Disciple: Jung sees earthly life to be of great significance, and what a man carries with him at the time of his death to be very important. He writes, "Only here, in life on earth, can the general level of consciousness be raised. That seems to be man's metaphysical task." Since consciousness survives death, it is important that a man's consciousness be elevated while he is on this earth.
Srila Prabhupada: Yes, one's consciousness should be developed. As stated in the Bhagavad-gita, if one's yoga practice is incomplete or if one dies prematurely, his consciousness accompanies him, and in the next life he begins at the point where he left off. His intelligence is revived. Tatra tam buddhi-samyogam labhate paurva-dehikam [bhagavad-gita 6.43]. In an ordinary class we can see that some students learn very quickly while others cannot understand. This is evidence for the continuation of consciousness. If one is extraordinarily intelligent, the consciousness he developed in a previous life is being revived. The fact that we have undergone previous births is also evidence for the immortality of the soul.
Disciple: Jung points out that there is a paradox surrounding death. From the viewpoint of the ego, death is a horrible catastrophe-"a fearful piece of brutality." Yet from the viewpoint of the psyche-the soul-death is "a joyful event. In the light of eternity, it is a wedding."
Srila Prabhupada: Yes, death is horrible for one who is going to accept a lower form of life, and it is a pleasure for the devotee, because he is returning home, back to Godhead.
Disciple: So death is not always joyful for the soul?
Srila Prabhupada: No. How can it be? If one has not developed his spiritual consciousness-Krsna consciousness-death is very horrible. The tendency in this life is to become very proud, and often people think, "I don't care for God. I am independent." Crazy people talk in this way, but after death they have to accept a body according to the dictations of nature. Nature says, "My dear sir, since you have worked like a dog, you can become a dog," or, "Since you have been surfing in the sea, you can now become a fish." These bodies are awarded according to a superior order. Karmana daiva-netrena. In whatever way we interact with the modes of material nature, in that way we are creating our next body. How can we stop this process? This is nature's way.
If we are infected by some disease, we will necessarily get that disease. There are three modes of material nature-tamo-guna, rajo-guna, and sattva-guna [the modes of ignorance, passion, and goodness]-and our bodies are acquired according to our association with them. In general, the human form affords us a chance to make progress in Krsna consciousness, especially when we are born in an aristocratic family, a brahmana [intellectual] family, or a Vaisnava [devotee] family.
Disciple: Despite his many interesting points, Jung seems to have had a limited understanding of Indian philosophy. He does not understand that samsara [the cycle of birth and death] has a goal, although it appears to be endless. Nor does he seem to know of Krsna's promise in the Bhagavad-gita that man can overcome earthly existence by surrendering unto Him.
Srila Prabhupada: Overcoming earthly existence means entering into the spiritual world. The spirit soul is eternal, and it can enter from this atmosphere into another. Krsna clearly explains this in the Bhagavad-gita [4.9]:
janma karma ca me divyam evam yo vetti tattvatah
tyaktva deham punar janma naiti mam eti so 'rjuna
"One who knows the transcendental nature of My appearance and activities does not, upon leaving the body, take his birth again in this material world, but attains My eternal abode O Arjuna."
Those who continue to revolve in the cycle of birth and death acquire one material body after another, but those who are Krsna conscious go to Krsna. They do not acquire another material body.
Disciple: Sri Krsna says this repeatedly throughout Bhagavad-gita.
Srila Prabhupada: Yes, and those who are not envious of Krsna accept His instructions, surrender unto Him, and understand Him. For them, this is the last material birth. For those who are envious, however, transmigration is continuous.
Disciple: Concerning karma, Jung writes this: "The crucial question is whether a man's karma is personal or not. If it is, then the preordained destiny with which a man enters life presents an achievement of previous lives, and a personal continuity therefore exists. If, however, this is not so, and an impersonal karma is seized upon in the act of birth, then that karma is incarnated again without there being any personal continuity."
Srila Prabhupada: Karma is always personal.
Disciple: Jung goes on to point out that Buddha was twice asked by his disciples whether man's karma is personal or not, and each time he fended off the question and did not discuss the matter. To know this, the Buddha said, "would not contribute to liberating oneself from the illusion of existence."
Srila Prabhupada: Buddha refused to answer because he did not teach about the soul or accept the personal soul. As soon as you deny the personal aspect of the soul, there is no question of a personal karma. Buddha wanted to avoid this question. He did not want his whole philosophy dismantled.
Disciple: Jung gives his own conclusion in this way: "Have I lived before in the past as a specific personality, and did I progress so far in that life that I am now able to seek a solution?"
Srila Prabhupada: As we have mentioned earlier, that is explained in the Bhagavad-gita [6.43]: tatra tam buddhi-samyogam labhate paurva-dehikam: "On taking rebirth, one revives the consciousness of his previous life and tries to make further progress."
Disciple: Jung continues, "I imagine that I have lived in former centuries and there encountered questions I was not yet able to answer, that I had to be born again to fulfill the task that was given to me."
Srila Prabhupada: That is a fact.
Disciple: "When I die, my deeds will follow along with me-that is how I imagine it."
Srila Prabhupada: That is personal karma.
Disciple: Jung continues, "I will bring with me what I have done. In the meantime it is important to insure that I do not stand at the end with empty hands."
Srila Prabhupada: If you are making regular progress in Krsna consciousness, your hands will not be empty at the end. Completeness means returning home, back to Godhead. This return is not empty. A Vaisnava does not want emptiness-eternal life with Krsna is our aspiration. Materialists are thinking that at the end of life everything will be empty; therefore they conclude that they should enjoy themselves as much as possible in this life. That is why sense enjoyment is at the core of material life; materialists are mad after sense enjoyment.
Disciple: Jung believed that one is reborn due to karma, or selfish action. He wrote, "If karma still remains to be disposed of, then the soul relapses again into desires and returns to live once more, perhaps even doing so out of the realization that something remains to be completed. In my case, it must have been primarily a passionate urge toward understanding which brought about my birth, for that was the strongest element in my nature."
Srila Prabhupada: That understanding for which he is longing is understanding of Krsna. This Krsna explains in the Bhagavad-gita [7.19]:
bahunam janmanam ante jnanavan mam prapadyate
vasudevah sarvam iti sa mahatma su-durlabhah
One's understanding is complete when one comes to the point of understanding that Krsna is everything. Then one's material journey comes to an end: tyaktva deham punar janma naiti [bhagavad-gita 4.9]. When one's understanding of Krsna is incomplete, Krsna gives instructions by which one can understand Him completely. In the Seventh Chapter of the Bhagavad-gita Krsna says, asamsayam samagram mam yatha jnasyasi tac chrnu: "Now hear from Me how you can understand Me completely and without any doubt" [bhagavad-gita 7.1]. If we can understand Krsna completely, we will take our next birth in the spiritual world.
Disciple: Jung conceived of a persona, which seems identical with what we call the false ego. He wrote, "The persona... is the individual's system of adaptation to, or the manner he assumes in dealing with, the world. A professor, for example, has his own characteristic persona. But the danger is that people become identical with their personas-the professor with his textbook, the tenor with his voice. One can say, with a little exaggeration, that the persona is that which in reality one is not, but which oneself as well as others think one is."
Srila Prabhupada: One's real persona is that one is the eternal servant of God. This is the spiritual conception of life, and when one realizes this, his persona becomes his salvation and perfection. But as long as one is in the material conception of life, one's persona is that one is the servant of one's family, community, body, nation, ideal, and so on.
In either case the persona is there and must continue, but proper understanding is realizing that one is the eternal servant of Krsna. As long as one is in the material conception, one labors under the delusion of the false ego, thinking, "I am an American,I am a Hindu," and so on. This is the false ego at work. In reality we are all servants of God. When we speak of a "false ego," we imply a real ego, a purified ego. One whose ego is purified understands that he is the servant of Krsna.
Disciple: For Jung, the purpose of psychoanalysis is to come to grips with our subconscious, shadow personality. Then we can know completely who we are.
Srila Prabhupada: That means attaining real knowledge. When Sanatana Gosvami approached Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, Sanatana said, "Please reveal to me who and what I am." In order to understand our real identity, we require the assistance of a guru.
Disciple: Jung says that in the shadow personality of all males there is a bit of the female, and in all females there is a bit of the male. Because we repress these aspects of the shadow personality, we do not understand our actions.
Srila Prabhupada: We say that every living entity is by nature a female, prakrti. Prakrti means "female," and purusa means "male." Although we are prakrti, in this material world we are posing ourselves as purusa. Because the jivatma, the individual soul, has the propensity to enjoy as a male, he is sometimes described as purusa. But actually the jivatma is not purusa. He is prakrti. Prakrti means the predominated, and purusa means the predominator. The only predominator is Krsna; therefore originally we are all female by constitution. But under illusion we attempt to become males, enjoyers. This is called maya. Although a female by constitution, the living entity is trying to imitate the supreme male, Krsna. When one comes to his original consciousness, one understands that he is not the predominator but the predominated.
Disciple: Jung wrote of the soul in this way: "If the human soul is anything, it must be of unimaginable complexity and diversity, so that it cannot possibly be approached through a mere psychology of instinct."
Srila Prabhupada: According to Caitanya Mahaprabhu, we can understand the soul through training. We should understand that we are not brahmanas [intellectuals], ksatriyas [administrators], sannyasis [renunciants], brahmacaris [celibate students], or whatever. By negation we can understand, "I am not this, I am not that." Then what is our identity? Caitanya Mahaprabhu says, gopi-bhartuh .-kamalayor dasa-dasanudasah: "I am the servant of the servant of the servant of
Krsna, the maintainer of the gopis [Krsna's dearmost servants, the milkmaids of Vrndavana]." That is our real identity. As long as we do not identify ourselves as eternal servants of Krsna, we will be subject to various false identifications. Bhakti, devotional service, is the means by which we can be purified of false identifications.
Disciple: Concerning the soul, Jung further wrote, "I can only gaze with wonder and awe at the depths and heights of our psychic nature. Its nonspatial universe conceals an untold abundance of images which have accumulated over millions of years... "
Srila Prabhupada: Since we are constantly changing our bodies, constantly undergoing transmigration, we are accumulating various experiences. However, if we remain fixed in Krsna consciousness, we do not change. There is none of this fluctuation once we understand our real identity, which is, "I am the servant of Krsna; my duty is to serve Him." Arjuna realized this after hearing the Bhagavad-gita, and he told Sri Krsna,
nasto mohah smrtir labdha tvat-prasadan mayacyuta
sthito 'smi gata-sandehah karisye vacanam tava
"My dear Krsna, O infallible one, my illusion is now gone. I have regained my memory by Your mercy, and I am now firm and free from doubt and am prepared to act according to Your instructions" [bhagavad-gita 18.73].
So after hearing the Bhagavad-gita Arjuna comes to this conclusion, and his illusion is dispelled by Krsna's mercy. Arjuna is then fixed in his original position. And what is this? Karisye vacanam tava: "Whatever You say, I shall do." At the beginning of the Bhagavad-gita Krsna told Arjuna to fight, and Arjuna refused. At the conclusion of the Bhagavad-gita Arjuna's illusion is dispelled, and he is situated in his original constitutional position. Thus our perfection lies in executing the orders of Krsna.
Disciple: Jung noted that the world's religions speak of five different types of rebirth. One is metempsychosis, the transmigration of souls, and, according to this view, "one's life is prolonged in time by passing through different bodily existences; or, from another point of view, it is a life-sequence interrupted by different reincarnations... It is by no means certain whether continuity of personality is guaranteed or not: there may be only a continuity of karma."
Srila Prabhupada: A personality is always there, and bodily changes do not affect it. However, one identifies himself according to his body. For instance, when the soul is within the body of a dog, he thinks according to that particular bodily construction. He thinks, "I am a dog, and I have my particular activities." In human society the same conception is there. For instance, when one is born in America he thinks, "I am an American, and I have my duty." According to the body, the personality is manifest-but in all cases personality is there.
Disciple: But is this personality continuous?
Srila Prabhupada: Certainly the personality is continuous. At death the soul passes into another gross body along with its mental and intellectual identifications. The individual acquires different types of bodies, but the person is the same.
Disciple: This would correspond to the second type of rebirth, which is reincarnation. Jung wrote, "This concept of rebirth necessarily implies the continuity of personality. Here the human personality is regarded as continuous and accessible to memory, so that when one is incarnated or born, one is able, at least potentially, to remember that one has lived through previous existences and that these existences were one's own-that is, that they had the same ego-form as the present life. As a rule, reincarnation means rebirth into a human body."
Srila Prabhupada: Not necessarily into a human body. From Srimad-Bhagavatam we learn that Bharata Maharaja became a deer in his next life. The soul is changing bodies just as a man changes his clothes. The man is the same, although his clothes may be different:
vasamsi jirnani yatha vihaya
navani grhnati naro 'parani
tatha Sarirani vihaya jirnany
anyani samyati navani dehi
"As a person puts on new garments, giving up old ones, the soul similarly accepts new material bodies, giving up the old and useless ones" [bhagavad-gita 2.22]. When a coat is old and cannot be used anymore, one has to purchase another. The man is the same, but his clothes are supplied according to the price he can pay. Similarly, you "purchase" a new body with the "money" (karma) you have accumulated in your life. According to your karma, you receive a certain type of body.
Disciple: The third type of rebirth is called resurrection, and Jung notes that there are two types of resurrection. "It may be a carnal body, as in the Christian assumption that this body will be resurrected." According to the Christian doctrine, at the end of the world the gross bodies will reassemble themselves and ascend into heaven or descend into hell.
Srila Prabhupada: This is simply foolishness. The gross material body can never be resurrected. At the time of death the living entity leaves this material body, and the material body disintegrates. How can the material elements reassemble themselves?
Disciple: Jung further wrote that on a higher level resurrection is no longer understood in a gross material sense: "It is assumed that the resurrection of the dead is the raising up of the corpus gloriaficationis, the subtle body, in the state of incorruptibility."
Srila Prabhupada: This type of "resurrection" is applicable only to God and His representatives, not to others. In this case, it is not a material body that is "raised up," but a spiritual one. When God appears, he appears in a spiritual body, and this body does not change. In the Bhagavad-gita Krsna says that he spoke to the sun-god millions of years ago, and Arjuna questions how this could be possible. Krsna replies that although Arjuna had been present he could not remember. It is possible for one to remember only if one does not change bodies-changing bodies means forgetting. But the Lord's body is purely spiritual, and a spiritual body never changes. According to the Mayavadi conception, the Absolute Truth is impersonal, and when He appears as a person He accepts a material body. But those who are advanced in spiritual knowledge, who accept the Bhagavad-gita, understand that this is not the case. Krsna specifically says, avajananti mam mudha manusim tanum asritam: "Because I appear as a human being, the unintelligent think that I am nothing but a human being" [bhagavad-gita 9.11]. This is not the case. Impersonalists have no knowledge of the spiritual body.
Disciple: The fourth form of rebirth is called renovation, and this applies to "the transformation of a mortal into an immortal being, of a corporeal into a spiritual being, and of a human into a divine being. Well-known prototypes of this change ore the transfiguration and ascension of Christ, and the bodily assumption of the mother of God into heaven after her death."
Srila Prabhupada: We say that the spiritual body never dies but that the material body is subject to destruction. Na hanyate hanyamane Sarire: [bg. 2.20] the material body is subject to destruction, but after its destruction the spiritual body is still there. The spiritual body is neither generated nor killed.
Disciple: But aren't there examples in the Srimad-Bhagavatam of a kind of ascension into heaven? Didn't Arjuna ascend?
Srila Prabhupada: Yes, and Yudhisthira. There are many instances-especially Krsna Himself and His associates. But we should never consider their bodies material. They didn't go through death of any sort, although their bodies traveled to the higher universe. But it is also a fact that everyone possesses a spiritual body.
Disciple: The fifth type of rebirth is indirect and is called "participation in the process of transformation." Examples of this type may be the initiation ceremony or the twice-born ceremony of the brahmana. "In other words," Jung wrote, "one has to witness, or take part in, some rite of transformation. This rite may be a ceremony... Through his presence at the rite, the individual participates in divine grace."
Srila Prabhupada: Yes, one's first birth is by one's father and mother, and the next birth is by the spiritual master and Vedic knowledge. When one takes his second birth, he comes to understand that he is not the material body. This is spiritual education. That birth of knowledge, or birth into knowledge, is called dvija, "second birth."
Disciple: Thus far we have discussed only Jung's autobiography. In one of Jung's last books, The Undiscovered Self, he discussed the meaning of religion and its utility in the modern world. He wrote, "The meaning and purpose of religion lie in the relationship of the individual to God (Christianity, Judaism, Islam) or to the path of salvation and liberation (Buddhism). From this basic fact all ethics is derived, which without the individual's responsibility before God can be called nothing more than conventional morality."
Srila Prabhupada: First of all, we understand from the Bhagavad-gita that no one can approach God without being purified of all sinful reactions. Only one who is standing on the platform of pure goodness can understand God and engage in His service. From Arjuna we understand that God is param brahma param dhama pavitram paramam bhavan: [bg. 10.12] He is "the Supreme Brahman, the ultimate, the supreme abode and purifier" [bhagavad-gita 10.12]. Param brahma indicates the Supreme Brahman. Every living being is Brahman, or spirit, but Krsna is the param brahma, the Supreme Brahman. He is also param dhama, the ultimate abode of everything. He is also pavitram paramam, the purest of the pure. In order to approach the purest of the pure, one must become completely pure, and to this end morality and ethics are necessary.
Therefore, in our Krsna consciousness movement we prohibit illicit sex, meat-eating, intoxication, and gambling-the four pillars of sinful life. If we can avoid these sinful activities, we can remain on the platform of purity. Krsna consciousness is based on this morality, and one who cannot follow these principles falls down from the spiritual platform. Thus, purity is the basic principle of God consciousness and is essential for the re-establishment of our eternal relationship with God.
Disciple: Jung saw atheistic communism as the greatest threat in the world today. He wrote, "The communistic revolution has debased man far lower than democratic collective psychology has done, because it robs him of his freedom not only in the social but in the moral and spiritual sense... The state has taken the place of God; that is why, seen from this angle, the socialist dictatorships are religious, and state slavery is a form of worship."
Srila Prabhupada: Yes, I agree with him. Atheistic communism has contributed to the degradation of human civilization. The communists supposedly believe in the equal distribution of wealth. According to our understanding, God is the father, material nature is the mother, and the living entities are the sons. The sons have a right to live at the cost of the father. The entire universe is the property of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and the living entities are being supported by the supreme father. However, one should be satisfied with the supplies allotted to him. According to the ISopanisad, tena tyaktena bhunjithah: we should be satisfied with our allotment and not envy one another or encroach upon one another's property. We should not envy the capitalists or the wealthy, because everyone is given his allotment by the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Consequently, everyone should be satisfied with what he receives.
On the other hand, one should not exploit others. One may be born in a wealthy family, but one should not interfere with the rights of others. Whether one is rich or poor, one should be God conscious, accept God's arrangement, and serve God to his fullest. This is the philosophy of Srimad-Bhagavatam, and it is confirmed by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. We should be content with our allocations from God and concern ourselves with advancing in Krsna consciousness. If we become envious of the rich, we will be tempted to encroach upon their allotment, and in this way we are diverted from our service to the Lord. The main point is that everyone, rich or poor, should engage in God's service. If everyone does so, there will be real peace in the world.
Disciple: Concerning the socialist state, Jung further wrote, "The goals of religion-deliverance from evil, reconciliation with God, rewards in the hereafter, and so on-turn into worldly promises about freedom from care for one's daily bread, the just distribution of material goods, universal prosperity in the future, and shorter working hours." In other words, the communists place emphasis on immediate tactile rewards.
Srila Prabhupada: This is because they have no understanding of spiritual life, nor can they understand that the person within the body is eternal and spiritual. Therefore they recommend immediate sense gratification.
Disciple: Jung believed, however, that socialism or Marxism cannot possibly replace religion in the proper, traditional sense. "A natural function which has existed from the beginning-like the religious function-cannot be disposed of with rationalistic and so-called enlightened criticism."
Srila Prabhupada: The communists are concerned with adjusting material things, which can actually never be adjusted. They imagine that they can solve problems, but ultimately their plans will fail. The communists do not understand what religion actually is. It is not possible to avoid religion. Everything has a particular characteristic. Salt is salty, sugar is sweet, and chili is hot or pungent. These are intrinsic characteristics. Similarly, the living entity has an intrinsic quality. His characteristic is to render service-be he a communist, a theist, a capitalist, or whatever. In all countries people are working and rendering service to their respective governments-be they capitalists or communists-and the people are not getting any lasting benefit. Therefore we say that if people follow in the footsteps of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu by serving Krsna, they will actually be happy. Both communists and capitalists are saying, "Render service to me," but Krsna says, sarva-dharman parityajya: "Just give up all other service and render service unto Me, and I will free you from all sinful reactions" [bhagavad-gita 18.66].
Disciple: Jung feels that materialistic Western capitalism cannot possibly defeat a pseudo religion like Marxism. He believes that the only way the individual can combat atheistic communism is to adopt a nonmaterialistic religion. He wrote, "It has been correctly realized in many quarters that the alexipharmic, the antidote, should in this case be an equally potent faith of a different and nonmaterialistic kind..." So Jung sees modern man in desperate need of a religion that has immediate meaning. He feels that Christianity is no longer effective because it no longer expresses what modern man needs most.
Srila Prabhupada: That nonmaterialistic religion which is above everything-Marxism or capitalism-is this Krsna consciousness movement. Krsna has nothing to do with any materialistic "ism," and this movement is directly connected with Krsna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. God demands complete surrender, and we are teaching, "You are servants, but your service is being wrongly placed. Therefore you are not happy. Just render service to Krsna, and you will find happiness." We support neither communism nor capitalism, nor do we advocate the adoption of pseudo religions. We are only for Krsna.
Disciple: Concerning the social situation, Jung wrote, "It is unfortunately only too clear that if the individual is not truly regenerated in spirit, society cannot be either, for society is the sum total of individuals in need of redemption."
Srila Prabhupada: The basis of change is the individual. Now there are a few individuals initiated into Krsna consciousness, and if a large percentage can thus become invigorated, the face of the world will change. There is no doubt of this.
Disciple: For Jung, the salvation of the world consists in the salvation of the individual soul. The only thing that saves man from submersion into the masses is his relationship to God. Jung wrote, "His individual relation to God would be an effective shield against these pernicious influences."
Srila Prabhupada: Yes, those who take Krsna consciousness seriously are never troubled by Marxism, this-ism, or that-ism. A Marxist may take to Krsna consciousness, but a Krsna conscious devotee would never become a Marxist. That is not possible. It is explained in the Bhagavad-gita that one who knows the highest perfection of life cannot be misled by a third- or fourth-class philosophy.
Disciple: Jung also felt that materialistic progress could be a possible enemy to the individual. He wrote, "A [materially] favorable environment merely strengthens the dangerous tendency to expect everything to originate from outside-even that metamorphosis which external reality cannot provide, namely, a deep-seated change of the inner man..."
Srila Prabhupada: Yes, everything originates from inside, from the soul. It is confirmed by Bhaktivinoda Thakura and others that material progress is essentially an expansion of the external energy-maya, illusion. We are all living in illusion, and so-called scientists and philosophers can never understand God and their relationship to Him, despite their material advancement. Material advancement and knowledge are actually a hindrance to the progressive march of Krsna consciousness. We therefore minimize our necessities to live a saintly life. We are not after luxurious living. We feel that life is meant for spiritual progress and Krsna consciousness, not for material advancement.
Disciple: To inspire this deep-seated change in the inner man, Jung feels that a proper teacher is needed, someone to explain religion to man.
Srila Prabhupada: Yes. According to the Vedic injunction, it is essential to seek out a guru-a person who is a representative of God. Saksad-dharitvena samasta-Sastraih. The representative of God is worshiped as God, but he never says, "I am God." Although he is worshiped as God, he is the servant of God-God Himself is always the master. Caitanya Mahaprabhu requested everyone to become a guru:
"Wherever you are, simply become a guru and deliver all these people who are in ignorance."
One may say, "I am not very learned. How can I become a guru?" But Caitanya Mahaprabhu said that it is not necessary to be a learned scholar, for there are many so-called learned scholars who are fools. It is only necessary to impart Krsna's instructions, which are already there in the Bhagavad-gita. Whoever explains the Bhagavad-gita as it is-he is a guru. If one is fortunate enough to approach such a guru, his life becomes successful.
Disciple: Jung also laments the fact that "our philosophy is no longer a way of life, as it was in antiquity; it has turned into an exclusively intellectual and academic affair."
Srila Prabhupada: That is also our opinion: mental speculation has no value in itself. One must be directly in touch with the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and using all reason, one must assimilate the instructions given by Him. One can then follow these instructions in one's daily life and do good to others by teaching Bhagavad-gita.
Disciple: On one hand, Jung sees an exclusively intellectual philosophy; on the other, denominational religions with "archaic rites and conceptions" that "express a view of the world which caused no great difficulties in the Middle Ages, but which has become strange and unintelligible to the man of today."
Srila Prabhupada: That is because preachers of religion are simply dogmatic. They have no clear idea of God; they only make official proclamations. When one does not understand, he cannot make others understand. But there is no such vanity in Krsna consciousness. Krsna consciousness is clear in every respect. This is the expected movement Mr. Jung wanted. Every sane man should cooperate with this movement and liberate human society from the gross darkness of ignorance.
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