i_luv_krishna

...which is not the point. But being devotee does mean being *loyal* to shAstra. It's one thing to say "I don't know," or "I didn't know that was in shAstra." But it's another thing to say, "well so what if that's in shAstra, I didn't agree with you before, and now that you have proven your point, I can't change my mind since I already made it up, so the conclusion is that you you are an envious snake...."

 

 

 

I think I made the point already. There are people of various dispositions and capabilities. I don't know if people here are ready to be called "devotees" as per your definition. Their definition of "loyalty" may also differ. As much as I can gather, people in this forum come not specifically with an objective to discuss the various angles of shastra, so it does upset them when there is an insistence of towing that line. Here, a few talks about Krishna and His pastimes suffice. The way they put it may not be very polite, but it does give others an idea of what they are trying to say.

Again, this is all relative. Being a public forum, anyone has a right to post,

 

 

 

And thus the poster should probably expect some caustic remark when the post goes against the *mood* of the forum.

Telling the person who questions to go elsewhere is the equivalent of anti-intellectualism.

 

 

 

I don't think that anybody is outright against intellectualism, only that it is not necessarily welcomed with a red carpet. People, however, are intelligent enough to sense the baggage of conceit that usually follows it. And respond to *that* in a manner they are habituated to.

Reiterating, posting against the *mood* of a forum is asking for trouble. (unless you like the trouble ;-)

Of course, if that's where we are going with this, i.e. "not everyone likes to be loyal to scripture, so let's protect them by sending people like you somewhere else," then let's just admit that and be done with it.

 

 

 

Nobody is going to say that explicitly and it may not be this strong, but at the end of the day, I think that's about it.

vadavali/

I go there too. It's a much more nicely run forum, where people stick to philosophy instead of petty character attacks.

 

 

 

I would say, I haven't seen a better managed forum.

It concerns me, however, that on forums like Audarya, people continue to drag my religion into the mud by

....snip....

strawman while continuing to encourage mental speculation.

 

 

 

You don't have to get too worked up about this. I would assume there are a few hundred forums that are "dragging your religion into mud" right now....

Its 8 o clock here. I came in late today to work. (you know why!) So I still want to stay half an hour more....

Oh! I am just joking. You did not startle me.

Those are very natural.

---> What am I holding back. Tell me. I will try to fix it...

See I don't have that capacity. It is said that Krishna kindly holds back His prema while we are in this body because the assualt of that sweet feeling of prema will spontaneously and instanly burn our bodies to ashes. I think you have done something like that....

I think I have to sleep today....

---> Is everything fine with you? I hope I did not startle you with that last email. I have resolved to tell you everything. Everything is out on the table with me. I'm not holding anything back...

No you did not.... But then again you did....

---> Yes, you have that kind of humility.

Geez, I was talking about you, not me. You were saying your heart is not pure and full of selfishness or something... But who are you to judge that?

---> My heart is not pure! It is full of selfishness and vice.

The heart full of love for Him thinks it has not a single drop of that nectar....

I am sorry that I hurt your pure heart. I shouldn't have done that. He has His crafty ways to get things done. I shouldn't have interfered....

---> sakhi, please don't be angry anymore

I am very sorry for what I did. Don't tell Him all this or He will kill me....

My dear Lord,

If people came to know of your Kindness

their hearts would literally bleed.....

Good Lord, I have just now sent you a dry email. Don't worry I will send the fire tender next....

Brother,

Do you think Krishna to be so cruel that he would be a stubborn creature unless you be 100% pure? It is only our concern that prompts Him to move.... but we unfortunate ones misunderstand Him sorely....

patram pushpam phalam toyam yo me bhaktyA prayacchati

tad-aham bhakty-upahRtam aSnAmi prayatAtmanaH

---> He wants it all.

He does not want it. He is more bothered that you may regret it later because this is a one way, brother!

I would agree wholeheartedly. Just as I also agree that because one person shows a better grasp of logic on a given point, it does not follow that he is necessarily not humble.

 

 

 

Althought, the necessity does not follow deductively, it is usually seen to be so. Language and its usage is a very powerful tool, and it can give a fairly correct impression of the the state of the writing mind.

Well, I can't comment on your situation. All I know is that one cannot have intellectual Krishna-based discussions with ordinary colleagues at work who neither read nor appreciate sAstra. This is something one can only do with other devotees. Yet time and again it is seen that deep thinking and polite discussion become a threat to those who wish to have nothing to do with either, yet cannot resist the temptation to simply flame away, even if they were not initially involved in the discussion.

 

 

 

If the debating party is flaming, a safe way out is to step backwards, notwithstanding all claims of chivalry and public good. Internet forums are not a good place for such a display. A third party interference is meant to be ignored unless it is severely disruptive.

However one cannot assume that people, just being devotees, have a natural affinity for logic and deep study of shastra. Some may have even come to escape from these. For these kind of people, it is, in my humble opinion, wrong to thrust one's own ideas of philosophy and religion and to barge in with a challenge they are not interested in. The world is full of different people with different dispositions. I would assume if God were to declare that people having neither the capacity nor the interest in logic and deep study of Shastra, but fairly interested in His name, worship, discussion of pastimes and a few generalized instructions, are not meant to be delivered, then that God, by any standards, seems not worthy of His stature. I would assume He has His ways for everybody, and certainly for the pandits setting the philosophical standards. It is another matter that the standards never seem to settle down when taken to the extremities.

So if a blind man were to, by an educated guess, jump correctly, he would still be safe.

However, if you wish to strengthen your skills of debate. This following link would be appropriate:

vadavali/

PLEASE..... resend your APOLOGY poem....

I must be surely losing my mind to delete my heart....

---> I am praying for you daily

Thank you!!! I am dire need of those!!!

---> that you will get Him before me

I don't think this is an acceptable contract. Then I would not be able to enjoy His company thinking about you....

---> My original point in bringing up this topic was for this reason... in the US the only thing you ever see about India on TV is people washing cows. Most people here think India is all about cows and poverty, and that's the limit.

he, he, he!!!

Everybody here in India, down to the rickshaw puller, knows what an average American would think India is all about. Thanks to BBC, CNN, FOX, NBC .... But a knee jerk reaction to this here is a self praise that is not in conformance with the existing situation. Pockets of excellence are far and few and most of them seem to flower in the US.

Dear Prabhuji,

If I were to clean my puja place with as much sincerity as I wash my car, I would not have felt this bad with the shower of praises.

I must be careful, because praise and compliment bolster the subtle ego into the seventh heaven.

In my humble opinion, there is a great advantage to those who possess a woman's body even as a sadhak. That is why your poems seem to be more potent, as Andal's and as Meera's. I, however, do not have that advantage. Ramakrishna Paramahansa, once lamented, for being born in a man's body. Kindly do not think that I am trying to flatter you by comparing you to Andal and Meera in front of the world. Form is very important to me and the association of this particular sentiment to a sadhak is more natural when that sadhak possesses the form of a woman.

I read one poem you had dedicated to Radharani. I was wondering that a person so attached to Krishna could be so uncomplicated. I must confess that I have been feeling extremely jealous of Radha all these years. For Her I would not get my Krishna. I felt as if a fortress of philosophy had been built to prevent others, especially a jiva, to get close to Krishna. Why was my access to Krishna mediated by a ten level secretariat? Why must I be subjected to a vicarious enjoyment of this most coveted of sentiments towards God? My Lord only knows, how many books I had to dig night after night sleepless only in the hope of finding even a peephole to Govinda. This was not my only anxiety. Was I trying to separate Radha from Krishna and thus becoming a source of pain to Him.... Ceasing to exist would be better than this. On top of that, a constant fear nagged me that since I had this most vile sentiment directed towards the dearest one of my Lord, He will make it a point to punish me by keeping away from me eternally even as my thirst for Him would increase day by day.

Sense has dawned upon me recently. Why would a Goddess of Her stature be insensitive to other women's love for Krishna. If She were to love Krishna, obviously She would know what it feels like to lose Him and wouldn't that be sufficient enough reason for Her to be compassionate towards other girls who love the Lord of Her heart. I have since then tried to apologize to Them for my sinful mentality.

I know, many people reading this, and my previous posts, may opine that my behaviour is akin to that of a sentimental sahajiya - taking things cheaply. I just want to say that I could not break free from the way I think and emote, however much programming I tried to the contrary. I have hence come to realize that my path is different. And even this realization is not solace enough. I just need to have a Guru who understands me and take me to my Lord.

---> I do not deny the economics in these issues. While these may be true in several cases, it is also true that Indians also head and lead many organizations in software, engineering and research. I have seen this myself.

Heading and leading organizations in software, engineering and research is not an exclusive domain of Indians. Sometimes over-patriotic people blur the ground realities here in India. Like somebody said India produces the largest number of scientists in the world, when somebody from, I think, IISc corrected that you can't include B.Sc. pass people in the category of scientists.

Gee Vanamali,

I went through a scan of your posts. You are a much more advanced Vaishnava than I thought previously. I humbly bow down before your greater depth of devotion. Kindly forgive any offences!!!

I gotta see Dr. Prema Panduranga. I am very certain now that I want to talk to her. And the "Dr." in front of her name gives me an assurance of an understanding nature.

-The same wretched

---> Total lack of knowledge. I know in software industry and in usa it is Indians who excel. It is not only in software but in every field Indians do better than most others. This is through my direct knowledge.

Sorry to inturrupt at an odd moment. There is truth in what both the parties are saying. The truth of the matter is that the outsourcing phenomenon is indeed a matter of saving the bottom line. I have been a part of the gaining side. However there is news that East European countries are now becoming the favourites because of the growing English education and of course --- lower per hour rates!!!

Most of these jobs would be fit to be done by an intelligent mechanic than by a good mechanical engineer.

Even then, there's no chance of these intellectual coolie jobs going to Pakistan/Afganistan/.... There is a definite need for some grey matter inside the skull. BTW, the "software coolie" term has been coined by an Indian in the Silicon Valley.

Can't blame the Indians for this. The customer I work for told his American employees that they were being shifted to a better project and got them to train us and then suddenly announced the closure of that office with six months salary.

Indians in US are indeed, generally, more productive than their American counterparts. Can't say that others in America are behind in brains. In the 5 years I have worked in this industry, I have seen wonderful systems being built by Indians and others (including native born Americans), but in the US. It is because of the technological environment there that is the facilitator and unfortunately present in a very limited quantity in a handful of institutions in India. The so called "tier 1" companies of the world are primarily doing "coolie" work in India.

---> However, it seems to be the case in forums like these that when someone wants to think deeply about something, others will criticize one for debating things he or she does not personally understand.

If I am not offending you, I would just like to say that logic and humility are not contrary or mutually exclusive qualities. However, generally, behind the logic often lies a sense of achievement, not necessarily reflection or a sense of being reasonable. This I can say, with all humility, because I have done all this "logic" game for a good length of time and for which I have nothing to be proud of.

---> krishna is the best choice there is no doubt about it but whilen i am here in this material world and being a girl i have to get married no other option,so is it wrong if i choose the person to whom i would like to get married to? i am a devotee and i have chosen to marry a devotee whom i like so am i wrong in thinking like this? am i going against lord krishna's will?

No you are not wrong. However this was just an advice from my own experience. When I was in your position, I was also thinking like you.... But your case may not turn up like mine, but it generally does so because it is the material world.... You better marry this person you like because choosing Krishna needs a fairly intense desire from the heart otherwise your won't be able to follow through

yadyapy asau paarshva-gato raho-gatas

tathaapi tasyaanghri-yugam navam navam

pade pade kaa virameta tat-padaac

calaapi yac chriir na jahaati karhicit

Although Lord Sri Krishna was constantly by their sides, as well as exclusively alone, His feet appeared to them to be newer and newer. The goddess of fortune, although by nature always restless and moving, could not quit the Lord's feet. So what woman can be detached from those feet, having once taken shelter of them?

Prabhupad:

According to Brahma-samhitaa, the Lord is served very respectfully by hundreds and thousands of goddesses of fortune. They are always in a lonely place also with the Lord. But still the association of the Lord is so inspiringly newer and newer that they cannot quit the Lord for a moment, even though they are by nature very restless and are moving about. The spiritual relation with the Lord is so enlivening and resourceful that no one can leave the company of the Lord, once having taken shelter of Him.