ancient_paztriot

Hi Theist. I think so in many subtle ways. Certainly can't be compared to Arjuna's experience. I assume other experiences to be similar to mine. I was blown away by the concepts in the gita… started me chanting before I finished the book. Now that pronunciation you don't want to know! Anyway, the knowledge and later the devotees completely devastated my material life - in one sense. I guess I couldn't help but see the truth in Prabhupada's words. His knowledge base then became mine. Christians have the concept of baptism. Guru intiates disciple. All these are concepts of rebirth, light and dark. I suspect you might be referring to something deeper… Yes, I see a relation between sincerity and devastation in my mind. Part of the problem is getting serious and sincere about someone who's not around. Obviously, we have to struggle through alot of person demons before we become purified through religous choices… maybe over many lifetimes. How do you decide Krsna is more real than the world that pulls you the other way? It's a heavy burden when you're not in a culture that even recognizes your ideas.

This quote concerning the power and relevance of the holy name occurs to me more often the older I get. I get more profound insights into it's meaning as time rolls on. Most of that perception comes from my pessimism: "Well, aren't you running behind? Remember where you thought you'd be? Has your knowledge of Krsna made you transcendental? What kind of seer are you?" I know what to do. I just can't do it. P.S. Obviously, Prabhupada was able to "surrender to THE name".

So, in fact, what the Bhagavatam says is that the material time is absent in the spiritual world. Cause what is material time? Material time that which destroys everything… ultimately. Just like in the Bhagavad-gita… Arjuna saw the Universal Form. He was shocked and he said uh… (Sanskrit) He said, "I'm loosing my sense of direction." In other words, he couldn't understand what was up, what was down, forward or backward. He was loosing his whole orientation. He couldn't understand anymore… anything. His whole sense of direction was lost. "I can't find any stable existence!" Everything was simply terrifying as Krsna showed his rather horrible feature. Later: Arjuna saw all the worlds practically. First the demigods were so powerful… all the soldiers at Kuruksetra. They were rushing into the blazing mouths of this form. Image if you actually saw millions of people rushing into a blazing fire emanating from the mouth of a terrible giant. If you were actually seeing all that… Arjuna was a very powerful ksatriya. He wasn't a sissy. He wasn't a uh… He wasn't a weak minded person. He was actually a very powerful ksatria that could literally go to hell for Krsna. And yet when he saw this form he was completely overwhelmed.

Prabhupada was one of the best scholars in the world. So much knowledge at his command. Prabhupada got into alot of scientific debate with experts… He usually won. Any expert could easily challenge him on this. But no official rebuttal recieved yet. Now if you want to be authoritative here, it'll cost you facts. Your opinion is respected, but not necessarily accepted. From above; it should look like this: Humility means intelligence. (not referring to you guest. Just an awesome concept for these times) If this name thing is true, it is very significant that the savior of one religion is named after the God of another.

author unknown Industrialists insist that their factories must move overseas in order to be "globally competitive." But until American industrialists moved their factories offshore there was little competition. They have created their own bogeyman. Proponents of free trade believe every country should be able to manufacture or grow some product much more economically than other countries, and therefore, with free trade, all nations would benefit by receiving the lowest price on every item produced. Though it seems reasonable, it just doesn’t work that way. One of the major problems is wages. The United States, Canada and European nations pay much higher wages than third-world nations. Since labor is part of production costs, the items would be cheaper in third-world countries. Secondly, some nations, which have surplus commodities, often subsidize their industries and farm products, selling them at a lower price, this is especially true in Europe. Now in reading this one would think that we should be enjoying much lower prices on the items we import. Have you noticed any major drop in prices? No? So what’s happening to these excess profits? If an American factory pays 500 workers an average of $8.00 an hour that’s $4000 an hour or $32,000 a day, which is $640,000 a month (20 day work month), or $7,680,000 a year. Of course this does not include health, social security and retirement benefits, nor does it include safety and pollution measures mandated by our government which would more than double that amount. However, if the factory moves to Indonesia and pays 500 workers $.25 an hour the total wages become $125 an hour, $1000 a day, $20,000 a month, or $240,000 a year, with no benefits nor government oversight. This leaves management well over $7,440,000 to play with. Most of this goes into management’s pockets. But what these former American industrialists ignore is the fact that their industries were able to start, grow and prosper because they were supported by the American people and the American way of life. And many industries received taxpayer's money for research and development; consequently much of the technology actually belongs to the American people. WE WERE SOVEREIGN BEFORE But not any more! Though the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA) made incursions on our right of self-government, these infringements of our Constitution were minor compared to what followed after signing the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade (GATT). Under GATT, the World Trade Organization (WTO) was established. One of the problems with the WTO is that all member nations have one vote. In other words, the Unites States has the same influence on decisions as the island of Haiti, even though there is a great discrepancy in landmass, population, and gross national production between the two. The WTO has a council in which the United States may not even be represented. Council decisions are rendered in secret and any appeals are also considered in secret. As an example, Mexico and other nations complained that the U.S. position of not importing tuna that does not protect dolphins is unfair. The WTO agreed. Bye bye dolphins! But that is only a minor example. At issue are such concerns as pollution, pesticides, health and work standards. Since most third-world nations are more interested in agricultural and industrial development than in pollution, these countries permit industries (often American owned) to defile the entire planet. Pesticides, which are not permitted for use in the U.S., such as DDT, are used freely in many of the countries exporting fruits and vegetables for use in our homes. Nor do you have any idea of what health standards (if any) are enforced on imported meats. And whether the products you buy in the department stores were made by child labor or slave labor is not indicated on the label, but in all cases it was done for a negligible labor cost. It all comes down to the simple fact that American companies have moved overseas, not out of the goodness of their hearts to help the downtrodden third-world peoples, but to exploit them. It is these industrialists, and the bankers who finance them, who pay off the ruling families and cliques who then permit the abuse of their citizens. Very little money, if any, ever winds up in improving either the standard of living of their citizens or for improvement of the infrastructure of their country. THE GOOD OL’ DAYS America has the shame of slavery, sweat shops, and child labor on the side of management, and corrupt work rules and featherbedding on the part of labor. But America has seen a time of magnificence when both management and labor showed respect for each other and worked in harmony. The turning point was the Second World War. Industry had almost unlimited funding, and, needing workers, was willing to pay good salaries. In return most labor worked hard and did not strike. Four years was a long time and set a precedence. Employees were used to working hard to receive good salaries and management was satisfied to pay them in order to produce a good product. When the war ended, industries retooled for peacetime, and the civilian population, after years of shortages, was in a buying mood. The economy began to flourish. As people bought more, industries increased production, offering new products. The U.S. possessed the strongest economy in the world. Then greed set in. Management, in order to reap more profit, cut corners on their products and initiated planned obsolescence. Labor, not to be outdone, failed to maintain its quality and quantity of work. Not to be outdone by either, the government began to interfere throughout private industry, establishing agencies to control all aspects of production, safety, environment, and labor. Now management, seeking greater profits, has left the United States to look for cheap labor and to escape governmental interference. And once away from American soil they have no qualms about using child and slave labor. But American labor has lost its buying power and the question becomes; where will industry sell these cheaply produced goods? THEY’RE FIRING THEIR CUSTOMERS When an industry closes its doors and moves overseas, employees are laid off. Of course these former personnel must find other employment. As a result, good paying jobs in America become scarce, and many people have been forced to work at two or more jobs to make enough money to survive. Many of the companies remaining in the USA have been quick to take advantage of a glutted market of unemployed personnel by only offering employment for 28-hour workweeks at minimum wage. While this avoids the necessity of furnishing medical care or retirement benefits, minimum wage jobs cannot support Social Security funding. Robert Reich, former Secretary of Labor, and other government officials have publicly stated that we don’t need the eight dollar an hour jobs ... Americans will have high paying, high-tech jobs! That some Americans may not have the training, the ability, or the desire to pursue a high-tech career never enters their minds. They also ignore the fact that many of our high-tech industries, such as electronics and some aviation, has already moved overseas. Prior to his death, Secretary of Commerce, Ron Brown, stated each billion dollars in trade represented 20,000 jobs. Accordingly, with our present annual trade deficit of $138 billion, we’ve lost 2,760,000 jobs. Worse yet, that $138 billion has been removed from the U.S. and transferred to foreign countries. It is destined to remain there unless the balance of trade swings in our favor ... an impossibility at present. This also means the loss of $138 billion in purchases by the people who lost those jobs. When this money is not spent into the U.S. economy the loss is compounded many times by what is known as "money circulation." As an example, because fewer goods are now being produced in the U.S., the demand for cardboard boxes has dropped. As a consequence a paper mill in Point St. Joe, Florida announced an indefinite layoff of 950 workers. But there is no mention of how many lumberjacks will also be put out of work, or how many truck drivers, or parts suppliers, food service personnel, or just what a total devastation this can cause to the economy of a town of only 4000 people THE GOVERNMENT CREDIT CARD - YOU! Not only are many citizens living beyond their means today through the use of the credit card, our profligate government, through the Federal Reserve, has also acquired a credit card mentality. But the one major expense that government never mentions is the trade deficit. Although it is a major annual deficit, it is not included in the budget because it would unbalance the budget much worse than it already is. The total trade deficit to date exceeds $1.5 trillion dollars! When NAFTA and GATT were proposed, many promises were made that these agreements (they are actually treaties) would help, not hurt the American economy. President Clinton promised that Florida’s tomato and produce growers would be protected against Mexican imports ... they weren’t. He promised that there would never be a negative balance of trade with Mexico ... there is. He promised that the World Trade Organization would never rob the U.S. of its sovereignty ... it has. And he is now intent on expanding free trade in the Caribbean Basin and South America? A country cannot survive as a service economy, but even if it could, many companies are moving their software business to countries such as Ireland and India where the labor costs are much less than here. Even office work is being shifted to overseas operations by fax and telecommunications. We are rapidly approaching the critical point in time when it will be impossible to turn our economy around and rebuild our industrial base. Even our large industries and mills are closing, as industry after industry continues to move offshore. Don’t try to excuse Congress on the grounds that they didn’t know. For years they have known the Agency for International Development (AID) and the Overseas Private Investment Corporation (OPIC), were not only advertising and encouraging industries to move overseas, but arranged trips, handled foreign contacts and helped the industries with the necessary foreign paperwork. Both government agencies, financed by your tax money, using your tax money, also provide insurance, so that if anything happens to those companies while overseas, they will be reimbursed. Both agencies are still in business and still sending jobs overseas. It is also Congress, which passed all of the environmental anti-pollution laws. But what good are laws which prevent pollution in the United States but permit our factories to move to other countries which do not enforce any anti-pollution measures. What good are U.S. environmental measures if the world becomes dirtier? It is also Congress which authorized "fast-track" which is totally unconstitutional! When will it end? Only if and when the American people wake up and hold those people in Congress responsible for their actions. Our government does not hesitate to lie to the people when it will benefit itself. Let the citizen beware!

Sounds very helpful to me. Yeah, I onced lived in the country not to long ago with the idea of living around the simple folk. Now dissolutioned, I think that this capitalists or materialists view of seeing everyone as a possible vehicle for explotation is everywhere.

"… you have a problem with that ?" I think there is miscommunication. (I don't agree with either of you wholly, but I'm not gonna get nasty about it. My views probably have something wrong with them too.) I don't want to take part in your attitude. I'll humbly bow out. I think you have to be more careful with devotees than karmis.

Shiva, please temper your speech. I like your comments. I don't agree with everything you say. But I tend to favor your view concerning the powers of Godhead. Alot of us didn't jump in. I personally am a little bewildered how it came to this… the way the conversation flowed. You both have good points. I think you agree on more than you know at the moment. Patience can see this through.

So any questions on these points? Yes? Guest: My biggest problem is that I can't remember when I'm suffering… and then something… Hridy: How you suffered? Guest: Yes. When I'm suffering, I know… Hridy: Yes, I know. But… Guest: But I can't always remember. Sometimes I just forget. Hridy: Suffering? Guest: Yes. Hridy: Well, we have to practice remembering. Fortunately, Krsna is very king and He won't let you forget. Unfortunately, that means you'll go on suffering. So we have to become very determined not to forget. Guest: … Hridyananda, the spiritual world is beyond time, how can we explain that at a certain moment the spirit soul falls from the spiritual world? Hridy: Beyond time does not mean that there is not… there are not events that take place as a sequence through a time medium. Yes, there is time in that sense… in the sense that there is a medium through which a sequence of events takes place. But there's no time in the sense that there is no loss and there is no gain. For example in this world… when we say… let us say that something happened ten years ago. Now let's say ten years ago something happened in this very spot where we're sitting now. Now what does it meant that it's ten years ago? What do we actually mean by that? And how do we get our sense of past time? I we think about it, our sense that something happened ten years ago… our sense of that is based on change… that so many things have changed. For example I've grown ten years older. The trees have grown ten years. Some of them have died. Things have changed. My relatives have died. The government has changed. So actually, if you think about it I have lost so many things, I have gained so many things, the body has changed, my concept of so many things is now differnt… I see the world in a differnt way. So it is actuallyt he change… all the different changes… which give us a sense that in fact time is past. Isn't it? Now image if nothing had changed at all; you hadn't grown one bit or hadn't aged any younger or older. All the trees are exactly the same. No one died. Nothing changed. Everything is just as it always was. If everything was just as it was your sense of past would not really be there. And similarly, what is the future? What is it that gives us a strong sense of the future? That there are many things we are waiting for or we are hoping for. Isn't it? And in the future I'll get this or I'll get that, or I'll do this or I'll do that. Isn't it? I'll go to this place, I'll go to that place. Or in the futue I'll fear this will happen: I'm going to grow old. This may happen and that may happen. Again change. New things happening. Old things being lost. So imagine if in the future you had nothing to gain because you had everything you could possibly desire… you had all at once all in one place… in a realm in which whatever else there may be in other places is also places is also here… because other places are also here. And this place is also in other places. Then… And there was no fear of any loss… Then our sense of future would not be… There would be very little sense of future. It wouldn't be a very meaningful idea… other than just waiting for Krsna to come.

Hi Babhru! Really none of my business… I'm just interested in what you meant by this philosophically… without the history… if you like… "I've seen several devotees whose faith has been challenged by their visit to Vrindavan."

Hridy: So obviously, if you drive like that then your right to drive is revoked or suspended. Now you can drive in the sense that you have the ability to drive, but you're not allowed to drive because you misused that ability. Similarly as souls, we have certain powers or abilities - as living beings. But because we misuse them… exploit the creation of God instead to serve God, those powers of the soul are revoked. That's the situation. And here Krsna says frankly that I kick these people in their stubborn… You know what. That's more or less the mood here in this verse. (Sanskrit) Now the word I just sung is interesting. Krsna says perpetually… always. That doesn't mean that some people can never be liberated, but it means the law is always in effect. (Spanish). That means that as long as you want to be stubborn and rebellious against the will of God, you'll get a swift kick in your uh… back pocket. The law will always function. It doesn't mean that some people can never get God's mercy. Any soul - at any moment - can get God's mercy if he wants it, but the rule will always be there. Don't think that you're going to wait it out or simply keep trying till finally you do it. You'll never do it. If you oppose the will of God, you'll be defeated… now and forever. That's the idea here. So we should not oppose God's will, but we should cooperate. Then we'll be saved.

Hridy: Sober philosophers can understand that if everything in the world is specific, then shouldn't the absolute truth also be something specific? … But a specific which includes everything else. That in fact is Krsna. Now to include everything, something must actually have infinite opulences. That which includes all specific things must have unlimited beauty. You may say, "Does the absolute truth include ugliness?" But what is ugliness? It's a lack of beauty. No matter how ugly you are, someone is uglier. So… don't feel bad. So therefore if we say someone is ugly it's a lack of beauty. Darkness is the abscence of light. Similarly, we find that which has unlimited beauty, unlimited light, unlimited fame and strength, that is God. So God is the source of all specific things of this world. And uh He's Krsna. Of coarse God has many names.

So watching Lord of the Rings again with my wife… and I didn't see a scene I've seen before. So I asked, "What happened to it?" My wife replied that was on the extended version. "You mean we have two versions?" "Yes." "Why?" "They didn't release the extended version for several months after the regular version." ************************** Well, how about that? Cheated out of your money again? I think it would be SO COOL to have a bunch of walking tree friends.

So many more deaths around the world associated with this kind of thing than in America. I think that American technology works pretty well with earthquakes… knock on wood! These natural disasters are supposed to increase as Kali-yuga progresses… been several in recent years.

Stay tuned… Is this getting ridiculous or what? Things can sound ridiculous and be true. Things can sound true and be ridiculous. Duality. I guess we all think we know what's true. That's me!

You're my brother! … Uh, most of the time… when you agree with me.

Guest: … there are alot of gods to choose from. Hridy: No, not really! Guest: (unintelligible) Hridy: Well that's superficial. If you study nature's traditons, and try to extract essential principles… not rituals and ceremonal details… but essential universal principles, there's not so much difference. So my point is that when the American people are confronted with a situation where the uh… where they're being offered a godless and basically degenerate and destructive - self-destructive - world view… And so they needed religon and they needed God… and the only people giving them (at least) some type of religion were also not very rational people…

Hridy: So there's a big difference by saying we distort our own understanding or something, by our own egocentrism or whatever …as if it creates the whole thing out of nothing. For example, if there's an automobile accident, you get seven witnesses, seven different stories. Does that mean that they created the accident? It means there was an objective accident, but their perceptiion of it is distorted by their own muddled cognition or whatever. So, therefore there's no logic to say they create these gods. There's no logic to it. It's just atheistic speculation. So that means liberal. Not all of them obviously. Getting back to our premise libera… who nurtured me and raised me… you know, raised on liberal breast milk… so if these liberals… many of them uh rejected… violently rejected… the idea of religious authority. In other words, if someone wants to claim that God is his left shoe, and you want to claim that God is the supreme father, your perception is in no way better than his. If you say that God - you know - is your dog… or the stool of your dog… your conception is in no way inferior to someone's worship of the supreme father, and that person should have every right you know… it's all the same… it's all one. In other words, they carry their egalitarianism to an absurd degree which began to destabilize the whole moral fiber of the country.

Theist, you're so deep! I will say what most of us know: This will probably turn out to be another "Right of Passage" …a fancy psychological term. Great way to determine value based on "how much your parents care to give" …marketing at it's best …APPEARANCES …as you say. How much are you worth?

I'm totally grossed out!

I had an insight earlier I was sharing with the neighborhood store clerk. Our government has all these awesome emergency powers RESERVED; separate family members to detention camps, appropriate anything and everything, etc. In other words, they've provided for themselves absolute power… and they are conditioning people to that. So let's say a catastrophic event happens which necessitates martial law. And let's further say that your government, by it's greed and other insanities, has caused the event. It's not hard to imagine America starting a nuclear war. Is it? I mean these morons are ready to destroy the world if they can't have it all. So the leaders have all these powers to act for the preservation and benefit of the good. But what if these monsters just want to take the opportunity to clean house… a patriotic citizen better not be affiliated with a religious group, environment, human rights, etc.! I mean look at how these people are under surveillance now! STOP AND TAKE A LOOK! So the demons think if they destroy the social fabric they have some restructuring to do… "Why, look what all these foolish people caused. My way is the only way. Now that's they way to go!" The store clerk's response was to wildly laugh (but low key) as if I was a paranoid freak or something. (He understood. I talk to him alot… For me, it's already happened many times before around the world. Many dictators in the last 2,000 years have left shocking legacies.) It's later than it seems! ************************* See original post above concerning the following… Seems to me the small dissenters are usually seen as idiots. The society creates these monsters that ruin everyone and the warnings of the dissenters is totally forgetten in the aftermath. (They should make the previous dessenters the new leaders after the public resolves the crisis… provided they survive. They showed the first risks for the benefit of others!) ******************NOW DON'T FORGET TO VOTE FOR ME!****************** (… coming from someone wholly unqualified) Anyway, I was just speculatiing that perhaps these few dessenters have learned over many lifetimes what the majority have yet to understand. Oh yes, there are successful revolutions too! But they're becoming extinct. Cool, I don't have to add a new message. Editing feature is nice! Adding on… The biggest demons feed off the desires of others. But their desires are most insatiable! The public has alot of material desires that can easily be exploited. In chasing these desires they will eventually become completely ruined by the empty promises of rogues, theives, etc. … just as occurs individually. Just look at modern politics… these officials; political, judiciary, and punitive systems… most of the individuals just harrass the citizens… alot of officials are worse than those they chase (in the name of the law). This is true around the world. And they have awesome power and influence. What further insanity can be expected from the consolidation of power? *****Steal'in time. Steal'in time. Foreget about everything beneath my mind***** -Gerry Rafferty

Monday, Dec. 22, 2003 Some people choose the college they will attend for its distinguished faculty, others for its bowl-winning football team and not a few for its girl-to-guy ratio. But Amanda Botway decided on Chicago's Illinois Institute of Technology when she saw the dorm she would live in. Outside, the $28 million State Street Village residence hall, designed by renowned architect Helmut Jahn, is constructed of corrugated, stainless-steel panels and walls of tinted glass. Inside, a glass elevator glides from pristine courtyards to a fifth-floor penthouse, where there's a sleek lounge with leather sofas and a 50-in. plasma TV. Botway's 250sq.ft. corner room has floor-to-ceiling picture windows that offer a panoramic view of the city skyline and a wireless Internet connection that, among other uses, lets her know when her laundry is done. Says the freshman, 18, from East Setauket, N.Y.: "I was, like, 'Wow, this is so cool.'" Cool, of course, comes at a price. Botway's room sets her parents back $6,270 a school year. Shared rooms in older McCormick Hall cost just $2,842. But at McCormick, cinder-block rooms line narrow corridors, bathrooms are communal, and lighting is fluorescent — in other words, it's just a regular dorm. "There was no way I was going to live there," Botway says with a shudder. "It's dark, depressing, and everything smells." Mom stands by her: "We've scraped it together because we felt it was more important to have her in a healthy environment," says Pam Botway. Her daughter giggles. "I know. I'm spoiled," Amanda says. Until recently, even spoiled kids heading off to college made do with matchbox-size rooms, grotty bathrooms and that weary-looking furniture unique to institutional living. But now colleges and universities across the country are pouring millions of dollars into the kind of fancy housing that many students won't be able to afford again until years after graduation. School officials say the improvements, particularly in technology, are needed to accommodate the children of baby boomers, who are used to being indulged at home. But at a time when the spiraling cost of higher education is causing considerable parental agita, some wonder how much college students really need a Jacuzzi down the hall. Indeed, many of today's dorms come with the kind of extras common at high-end resorts. Every residence hall built in 2002 had air conditioning and high-speed Internet access, according to the trade publication American School & University. Suites and apartments are replacing the old, cramped doubles. Over the past three years, for example, Florida International University has added 900 rooms in halls with luxury amenities like pools, sundecks, reserved parking, convenience stores, computer labs and 24-hour reception. Freshman Ashley Bullock, 17, lives in a suite with 14ft. ceilings and a fully equipped kitchen in the school's newly opened, $19 million Everglades Hall. Bullock enjoys sharing her $5,400-a-year suite with two other women, but she really enjoys the fact that she shares her bathroom with just one of them and her 110-sq.-ft. bedroom with no one. "It's like being at home," she says. That's exactly the kind of response schools are going for and what they say they need to stay competitive. "This is an arms race," says Sandy Baum, a professor of economics at Skidmore College who conducts the Annual Survey of Colleges for the College Board. With state budgets and private donations slashed, schools are desperate to fill classrooms with tuition-paying students, particularly those who can afford full fare. Dorms are not only one of the few healthy sources of revenue, but also a major selling point. "It's a matter of survival for some institutions," says Tom Hier of Biddison Hier, a student-housing planning firm based in Washington. "If your competitors are building, you have to be on the leading edge too." Michigan State University surveyed its students to find out how to keep them from moving off campus and taking their housing dollars with them. This resulted in the renovation and upgrade of older dorms, including Robert S. Shaw Hall. Carmen Ornelas, 21, and her sister Sara, 19, both sophomores, decided to live there because they like brushing their teeth while watching soaps on the bathroom TV and sauntering upstairs to the Jacuzzi. Shaw manager Carol Noud admits the "therapeutic jet tub," as school officials prefer to call it, has some parents worried. "One mom did say to me, 'I want you to promise me only one person will be using that tub at a time,'" Noud says, laughing. "Like we can control our students." Top schools feel less pressure to house students like sheiks. "Upper-tier schools don't have to work as hard," says consultant Hier. "If you're Harvard, you're never going to have to worry. I went to my 20year reunion at Brown, and nothing had changed but the paint." Even so, Cornell, Dartmouth and the University of Pennsylvania are among the Ivies spending millions to spiff up their dorms. Stanford University is in the middle of a $300 million housing renovation. Still, says Rodger Whitney, executive director of Stanford's student housing, "We're not going in the direction of providing what I call country-club facilities."

Satya-yuga had little - if any - oversight. Or the responsibility of each individual was of such integrity, there was no need. Or everyone was all things. Symantics. We know the process through the ages. From time to time great demons are allowed to dominate without restraint. This is one 'enormous' ego undermining all others. The citizens are generally aghast in retrospect at the monster they created. So I guess Krsna lets them rule as some 'material god' for awhile just to teach the public a lesson? I think we have some awesome lessons looming with the demonstration of our own technology we're so proud of. ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, Maybe this belongs on another thread: This reminds me of a recent thread in which the issue of responsibility was just to think "It's all going as Krsna plans. He can change it if He wants and He 'doesn't need us'." Krsna has that potency to certainly change anything dispite everyone else's objection. But maybe He thinks that attitude is a cop-out.

It just occurred to me how we are burning in Kali. Religion is under such oppression and attack. "In God We Trust" in America, but that trust has been supplanted with dogmatic material world views. Still, the pledge goes on… I guess 'cause some people believe in it. Or more likely, it's another sign of the greatness of the ruling demons, "We can even exploit God!" The capitalist president can take all the people's resources… (Well, Bush gets to enjoy the efforts of many generations. But it is the same program.) turn them into technological power, use that power to intimidate the world and control a monopoly. Unfortunately, people have becomes so stupid and programmable, that their morality is whatever the latest "official" spin is from these fools who are causing the problems they pretend to solve. It is later than it seems! At least back in Krsna's days, the demons had culture… varnashrama dharma and all that. At least they knew they weren't the body. At least they displayed more civility in generally providing for others. They made a hell of alot more sense when they spoke! In many cases, they were honest about their exploitation! History has shown how leaders and authorities puff themselves up by denying God in the name of objectivity or liberalism. In the case of liberalism, they all have the truth. Uh, that means Christianity. No! That means science! And this boldness enlivens the demon population. It is later than it seems! First the assault on basic liberties and then maybe religion specifically. Once you have exploited God to get what you want, He's a neusance. My sentimental thought is that 'religion will always be around' – says Prabhupada… like varnashrama-dharma is all but gone, but still around in some perverted form. So I guess it is with religion. It will be around because of people like you that "keep it turned on". My respects. Hare Krsna!

Friday, December 19th, 2003 Letters the Troops Have Sent Me... by Michael Moore Dear Friends, As we approach the holidays, I've been thinking a lot about our kids who are in the armed forces serving in Iraq. I've received hundreds of letters from our troops in Iraq -- and they are telling me something very different from what we are seeing on the evening news. What they are saying to me, often eloquently and in heart-wrenching words, is that they were lied to -- and this war has nothing to do with the security of the United States of America. I've written back and spoken on the phone to many of them and I've asked a few of them if it would be OK if I posted their letters on my website and they've said yes. They do so at great personal risk (as they may face disciplinary measures for exercising their right to free speech). I thank them for their bravery. Lance Corporal George Batton of the United States Marine Corps, who returned from Iraq in September (after serving in MP company Alpha), writes the following: “You'd be surprised at how many of the guys I talked to in my company and others believed that the president's scare about Saddam's WMD was a bunch of . and that the real motivation for this war was only about money. There was also a lot of . that many companies, not just marine companies, had to go through with not getting enough equipment to fulfill their missions when they crossed the border. It was a miracle that our company did what it did the two months it was staying in Iraq during the war…. We were promised to go home on June 8th, and found out that it was a lie and we got stuck doing missions for an extra three months. Even some of the most radical conservatives in our company including our company gunnery sergeant got a real bad taste in their mouth about the Marine corps, and maybe even president Bush.” Here's what Specialist Mike Prysner of the U.S. Army wrote to me: “Dear Mike -- I’m writing this without knowing if it’ll ever get to you…I’m writing it from the trenches of a war (that’s still going on,) not knowing why I’m here or when I’m leaving. I’ve toppled statues and vandalized portraits, while wearing an American flag on my sleeve, and struggling to learn how to understand… I joined the army as soon as I was eligible – turned down a writing scholarship to a state university, eager to serve my country, ready to die for the ideals I fell in love with. Two years later I found myself moments away from a landing onto a pitch black airstrip, ready to charge into a country I didn't believe I belonged in, with your words (from the Oscars) repeating in my head. My time in Iraq has always involved finding things to convince myself that I can be proud of my actions; that I was a part of something just. But no matter what pro-war argument I came up with, I pictured my smirking commander-in-chief, thinking he was fooling a nation…" An Army private, still in Iraq and wishing to remain anonymous, writes: “I would like to tell you how difficult it is to serve under a man who was never elected. Because he is the president and my boss, I have to be very careful as to who and what i say about him. This also concerns me a great deal... to limit the military's voice is to limit exactly what America stands for... and the greater percentage of us feel completely underpowered. He continually sets my friends, my family, and several others in a kind of danger that frightens me beyond belief. I know several other soldiers who feel the same way and discuss the situation with me on a regular basis.” Jerry Oliver of the U.S. Army, who has just returned from Baghdad, writes: “I have just returned home from "Operation Iraqi Freedom". I spent 5 months in Baghdad, and a total of 3 years in the U.S. Army. I was recently discharged with Honorable valor and returned to the States only to be horrified by what I've seen my country turn into. I'm now 22 years old and have discovered America is such a complicated place to live, and moreover, Americans are almost oblivious to what's been happening to their country. America has become "1984." Homeland security is teaching us to spy on one another and forcing us to become anti-social. Americans are willingly sacrificing our freedoms in the name of security, the same Freedoms I was willing to put my life on the line for. The constitution is in jeopardy. As Gen. Tommy Franks said, (broken down of course) One more terrorist attack and the constitution will hold no meaning.” And a Specialist in the U.S. Army wrote to me this week about the capture of Saddam Hussein: “Wow, 130,000 troops on the ground, nearly 500 deaths and over a billion dollars a day, but they caught a guy living in a hole. Am I supposed to be dazzled?” There are lots more of these, straight from the soldiers who have been on the front lines and have seen first hand what this war is really about. I have also heard from their friends and relatives, and from other veterans. A mother writing on behalf of her son (whose name we have withheld) wrote: “My son said that this is the worst it's been since the "end" of the war. He said the troops have been given new rules of engagement, and that they are to "take out" any persons who aggress on the Americans, even if it results in "collateral" damage. Unfortunately, he did have to kill someone in self defense and was told by his commanding officer ‘Good kill.’ "My son replied ‘You just don't get it, do you?’ "Here we are...Vietnam all over again.” From a 56 year old Navy veteran, relating a conversation he had with a young man who was leaving for Iraq the next morning: “What disturbed me most was when I asked him what weapons he carried as a truck driver. He told me the new M-16, model blah blah blah, stuff never made sense to me even when I was in. I asked him what kind of side arm they gave him and his fellow drivers. He explained, "Sir, Reservists are not issued side arms or flack vests as there was not enough money to outfit all the Reservists, only Active Personnel". I was appalled to say the least. "Bush is a jerk agreed, but I can't believe he is this big an . not providing protection and arms for our troops to fight HIS WAR!” From a 40-year old veteran of the Marine Corps: “Why is it that we are forever waving the flag of sovereignty, EXCEPT when it concerns our financial interests in other sovereign states? What gives us the right to tell anyone else how they should govern themselves, and live their lives? Why can't we just lead the world by example? I mean no wonder the world hates us, who do they get to see? Young assholes in uniforms with guns, and rich, old, white tourists! Christ, could we put up a worse first impression?” (To read more from my Iraq mailbag -- and to read these above letters in full -- go to my website: http://www.michaelmoore.com/books-films/dudewheresmycountry/soldierletters/index.php) Remember back in March, once the war had started, how risky it was to make any anti-war comments to people you knew at work or school or, um, at awards ceremonies? One thing was for sure -- if you said anything against the war, you had BETTER follow it up immediately with this line: "BUT I SUPPORT THE TROOPS!" Failing to do that meant that you were not only unpatriotic and un-American, your dissent meant that YOU were putting our kids in danger, that YOU might be the reason they lose their lives. Dissent was only marginally tolerated IF you pledged your "support" for our soldiers. Of course, you needed to do no such thing. Why? Because people like you have ALWAYS supported "the troops." Who are these troops? They are our poor, our working class. Most of them enlisted because it was about the only place to get a job or receive the guarantee of a college education. You, my good friends, have ALWAYS, through your good works, your contributions, your activism, your votes, SUPPORTED these very kids who come from the other side of the tracks. You NEVER need to be defensive when it comes to your "support" for the "troops" -- you are the only ones who have ALWAYS been there for them. It is Mr. Bush and his filthy rich cronies -- whose sons and daughters will NEVER see a day in a uniform -- they are the ones who do NOT support our troops. Our soldiers joined the military and, in doing so, offered to give THEIR LIVES for US if need be. What a tremendous gift that is -- to be willing to die so that you and I don't have to! To be willing to shed their blood so that we may be free. To serve in our place, so that WE don't have to serve. What a tremendous act of selflessness and generosity! Here they are, these 18, 19, and 20-year olds, most of whom have had to suffer under an unjust economic system that is set up NOT to benefit THEM -- these kids who have lived their first 18 years in the worst parts of town, going to the most miserable schools, living in danger and learning often to go without, watching their parents struggle to get by and then be humiliated by a system that is always looking to make life harder for them by cutting their benefits, their education, their libraries, their fire and police, their future. And then, after this miserable treatment, these young men and women, instead of coming after US to demand a more just society, they go and join the army to DEFEND us and our way of life! It boggles the mind, doesn't it? They not only deserve our thanks, they deserve a big piece of the pie that we dine on, those of us who never have to worry about taking a bullet while we fret over which Palm Pilot to buy the nephew for Christmas. In fact, all that these kids in the army ask for in return from us is our promise that we never send them into harm's way unless it is for the DEFENSE of our nation, to protect us from being killed by "the enemy." And that promise, my friends, has been broken. It has been broken in the worst way imaginable. We have sent them into war NOT to defend us, not to protect us, not to spare the slaughter of innocents or allies. We have sent them to war so Bush and Company can control the second largest supply of oil in the world. We have sent them into war so that the Vice President's company can bilk the government for billions of dollars. We have sent them into war based on a lie of weapons of mass destruction and the lie that Saddam helped plan 9-11 with Osama bin Laden. By doing all of this, Mr. Bush has proven that it is HE who does not support our troops. It is HE who has put their lives in danger, and it is HE who is responsible for the nearly 500 American kids who have now died for NO honest, decent reason whatsoever. The letters I've received from the friends and relatives of our kids over there make it clear that they are sick of this war and they are scared to death that they may never see their loved ones again. It breaks my heart to read these letters. I wish there was something I could do. I wish there was something we all could do. Maybe there is. As Christmas approaches (and Hanukkah begins tonight), I would like to suggest a few things each of us could do to make the holidays a bit brighter -- if not safer -- for our troops and their families back home. 1. Many families of soldiers are hurting financially, especially those families of reservists and National Guard who are gone from the full-time jobs ("just one weekend a month and we'll pay for your college education!"). You can help them by contacting the Armed Forces Emergency Relief Funds at http://www.afrtrust.org/ (ignore the rah-rah military stuff and remember that this is money that will help out these families who are living in near-poverty). Each branch has their own relief fund, and the money goes to help the soldiers and families with paying for food and rent, medical and dental expenses, personal needs when pay is delayed, and funeral expenses. You can find more ways to support the troops, from buying groceries for their families to donating your airline miles so they can get home for a visit, by going here. 2. Thousands of Iraqi civilians have been killed by our bombs and indiscriminate shooting. We must help protect them and their survivors. You can do so by supporting the Quakers' drive to provide infant care kits to Iraqi hospitals—find out more here: http://www.afsc.org/iraq/relief/default.shtm. You can also help the people of Iraq by supporting the Iraqi Red Crescent Society—here’s how to contact them: http://www.ifrc.org/address/iq.asp, or you can make an online donation through the International Federation of the Red Cross and Red Crescent Societies by going here: http://www.ifrc.org/HELPNOW/donate/donate_iraq.asp. 3. With 130,000 American men and women currently in Iraq, every community in this country has either sent someone to fight in this war or is home to family members of someone fighting in this war. Organize care packages through your local community groups, activist groups, and churches and send them to these young men and women. The military no longer accepts packages addressed to “Any Soldier,” so you’ll have to get their names first. Figure out who you can help from your area, and send them books, CDs, games, footballs, gloves, blankets—anything that may make their extended (and extended and extended…) stay in Iraq a little brighter and more comfortable. You can also sponsor care packages to American troops through the USO: http://www.usocares.org/. 4. Want to send a soldier a free book or movie? I’ll start by making mine available for free to any soldier serving in Iraq. Just send me their name and address in Iraq (or, if they have already left Iraq, where they are now) and the first thousand emails I get at soldiers@michaelmoore.com will receive a free copy of "Dude..." or a free “Bowling…” DVD. 5. Finally, we all have to redouble our efforts to end this war and bring the troops home. That's the best gift we could give them -- get them out of harm's way ASAP and insist that the U.S. go back to the UN and have them take over the rebuilding of Iraq (with the US and Britain funding it, because, well, we have to pay for our mess). Get involved with your local peace group—you can find one near where you live by visiting United for Peace, at: http://www.unitedforpeace.org and the Vietnam Veterans Against War: http://www.vvaw.org/contact/. A large demonstration is being planned for March 20, check here for more details: http://www.unitedforpeace.org/article.php?id=2136. To get a “Bring Them Home Now” bumper sticker or a poster for your yard, go here: http://bringthemhomenow.org/yellowribbon_graphics/index.html. Also, back only anti-war candidates for Congress and President (Kucinich, Dean, Clark, Sharpton). I know it feels hopeless. That's how they want us to feel. Don't give up. We owe it to these kids, the troops WE SUPPORT, to get them the hell outta there and back home so they can help organize the drive to remove the war profiteers from office next November. To all who serve in our armed forces, to their parents and spouses and loved ones, we offer to you the regrets of millions and the promise that we will right this wrong and do whatever we can to thank you for offering to risk your lives for us. That your life was put at risk for Bush's greed is a disgrace and a travesty, the likes of which I have not seen in my lifetime. Please be safe, come home soon, and know that our thoughts and prayers are with you during this season when many of us celebrate the birth of the prince of "peace." Yours, Michael Moore mmflint@aol.com www.michaelmoore.com