ancient_paztriot

lover_soul, you keep expressiing this very liberal opinion. I think it is all bunk. I've said so before. I'll stop responding to this future dogma, but I'm on record as being against it.

"Whenever I feel I am drowning in an ocean of nescience, I know its a lack of Krishna consciousness and not a lack of political involvement. Which does not mean I am against devotees who choose to become politically involved, I simply wish to keep Prabhupada's highest teachings in the forefront that Krishna consciousness, if we do it, will solve everything" Priitaa, if you can do that then tell me more. Theoretically perfect I think. Yet, what if the government just decides to send you to a concentration camp because of your beliefs… that happened because the masses thought it was someone elses responsibility? If the kali-yuga leaders are left to dominate and exploit without any accountability…

Nice plug Theist. I'm not participating in this discussion. But since you ask… I think the many spiritual masters' explanations regarding the changeless of consciousness or in themselves sufficient. I might be interested in this discussion at another time.

One favorable quality is curved edges in everything. There are very few 'natural points' in nature. Points are considered to project harmful 'arrow' energy. Curves provide a really mellow environment.

Bg 18.17 TEXT 17 yasya nahankrto bhavo buddhir yasya na lipyate hatvapi sa imaû lokan na hanti na nibadhyate yasya—of one who; na—never; ahankrtah—false ego; bhavah—nature; buddhih—intelligence; yasya—one who; na—never; lipyate—is attached; hatva api—even killing; sah—he; iman—this; lokan—world; na—never; hanti—kills; na—never; nibadhyate—becomes entangled. TRANSLATION One who is not motivated by false ego, whose intelligence is not entangled, though he kills men in this world, is not the slayer. Nor is he bound by his actions. PURPORT In this verse the Lord informs Arjuna that the desire not to fight arises from false ego. Arjuna thought himself to be the doer of action, but he did not consider the Supreme sanction within and without. If one does not know that a super sanction is there, why should he act? But one who knows the instrument of work, himself as the worker, and the Supreme Lord as the supreme sanctioner, is perfect in doing everything. Such a person is never in illusion. Personal activity and responsibility arise from false ego and godlessness, or a lack of Krsna consciousness. Anyone who is acting in Krsna consciousness under the direction of the Supersoul or the Supreme Personality of Godhead, even though killing, does not kill. Nor is he ever affected with the reaction of such killing. When a soldier kills under the command of a superior officer, he is not subject to be judged. But if a soldier kills on his own personal account, then he is certainly judged by a court of law.

"The Higher Taste" is a small paperback that gives the basic arguments for vegetarianism as well as very practical instructions on offering your food. Have her read that and then talk to you. Good luck. It'ss online somewhere. Anyone have the link?

Your dad said you were right because of "the Mad Cow disease we had up here in Washington"? I'd keep a close eye on him. Your mom has gotta be vegetarian too or there's little hope.

Is it karma or is it mercy… at the end? Strange.

Do you not feel you are drowning in an ocean of nescience? Your life is shaped by so many opposing elements - against your moral interest… against your survival! Look around. You are being swept up in material dogma and the exploitive interests of a few egocentric maniacs. Everything is resisting your desires.

And while you think that way, all your options for meaningful and consistent religious philsoohy dissapear under "freedom of religion" and secular state… in the interests of disspationate objectivity. … In the interests of replacing Krsna! Irrational hypocrites! You can't market the moral dimension of life out of people's lives. You can't vote it out. You can't ignore it.

Thanks Theist. I was thinking of replying to this earlier… looked for the thread and overlooked it. Lover_soul said: "Its not my place to say, but still it is worth saying. Advocating or not advocating something will not change the course of this world. Yes, we can oppose it, but it is also good to realize that such horrible things are going to definitely happen as every one forgets God. It is time to go back to the spiritual world, lets mail our unalloyed devotion to the supreme and just wait for him to pick us up and give a ride to his abode." "Advocating or not advocating something will not change the course of this world." … Well, what do you think the politicians are doing? What do you think business is doing? They are all advocating. Bush has been a heavyweight advocate. The power and influence come down to a few individuals who coincidentally happen to be the biggest capitalist heavyweights. "Yes, we can oppose it, but it is also good to realize that such horrible things are going to definitely happen as every one forgets God." … Yes, and the forerunners who oppose it are doing the best service for society. "It is time to go back to the spiritual world, lets mail our unalloyed devotion to the supreme and just wait for him to pick us up and give a ride to his abode." In other words, quiet complicity makes you a conspirator.

… in which they have so many different psychological techniques and so many ways… just trying to induce material desire: "You need this! YOU"VE GOT TO have this!" Isn't it? "You have bad breathe!" …one commercial. Actually, they had one commercial once that "Your best friends won't tell you." You know that? What was it, that you have bad breath? In other words, you have bad breath, so even if no one told you… even if you think you don't… you actually do…, it's just that no one will tell you you do. Actually, all of your friends secretly hate you and when you leave the room people sneer at you and despise you because actually you have bad breath. But no one will tell you. So the only solution is you have to buy this product. So this whole capitalist society is geared to the utmost to induce material desire. Everywhere we turn, the environment is saturated with a barrage of propaganda meant to intensify our desire to enjoy this world. That means as Prabhupada said, this is "a soul-killing civilization."

So the idea is that all of these activities… everything, is in the three modes of nature… even the different forms of government… everything… there's no exception… absolutely everything within this world is under these three modes of nature. So Lord Krsna says (Sanskrit) …that indeed He… the purusa… living being is prakriti-stah… stah means situated. The living being is situated in prakrti. And what is he doing? What are we doing here in this material world? That's a good question. What are we doing here? Sankrit… we are experiencing… What? …(Sanskrit) …we are experiencing the different modes born of prakrti. That's all. That's all we're doing. Just like a karmi - an ordinary person - goes into a shopping mall, and they go into the store and just walk around trying to experience all the different modes. Isn't it? …letting all their senses go wild. Isn't it? Trying on clothes, picking up things, imagining, "What if I bought this?" On television they have commercials…

And in many cases with the consent and even will of the mother! And people think they aren't brainwashed. She thinks she is free to 'choose'… YOU HAVE TO BE BLIND to the consequences.

The leaders permit this abortion because it is really for them. They want promiscuous or easy 'tail' available for their illicit desires. A woman probably won't have sex if she is sure to get stuck with a child she doesn't want the rest of her life. Therefore, the solution is to kill the child.

I agree with what you said Mahak. I think this also should be said: Ultimately, everyone is meant to absolutely trust God. That is the verdict of scripture. Let's say Radharani doesn't trust Krsna. Well, that's not in every situation. And anyone - in my opinion - who has succeeded in the religious realm, especially the associates of Krsna, have already displayed a great deal of absolute faith through many lifetimes. There is the absolute faith of knowing that Krsna is God and that ultimately you have to deal with Him - despite whatever else that may be going on. You have to trust Him.

If people have no more intelligence to see beyond this, we are all doomed! The killing is done by big farm interests who use machines to replace people. Therefore, the responsibility for killing belongs to those who decide to use the machines. This is what demons do… blame others for their own faults. Hridyananda says people have hamburger for brains… they've eaten so much hamburger and meat… you are what you eat.

Shiva, I hope you breathe during your sentences.

"… what's the use to be familiar with a krsna that now for us is like a legend or it is simply a story recalled by the spiritual master that we understand maybe at 0.00000000001% of its real meaning?" Well, at least it's vaguely connected with reality. And that connection is so powerful it can save you from an animal birth. So much of the world is 'way out in left field', far removed from the 'real world'. For anyone to even start such a process is auspicious. If your refuge is properly fixed, you have direction. And you have alot of hope!

I suspect she can only be approached by pure devotees. I would speculate that you can begin your worship of Radha, but to actually communicate with her through yoga? …perhaps Krsna is more liberal.

We run and run to avoid that pie falling… and get hit right in the face! Never mind Yasodanandana… it doesn't apply to you. I'm defeated.

Uh, you didn't have anything to indicate joking… I think. "… i feel talking with Krishna in a familiar sort of way can build attachment..is it not?" Well… Yeah! The more Krsna is thought of… OR… TREATED like a person, the more HE reciprocates like one. Since He has everything we're looking for, He should be the object of our affection. Any effort on His behalf is a sound ground for *****anything*****

Hridy: Also, in the Srimad Bhagavatam, Bhishma, lying upon his deathbed, a very glorious bed of arrows… meet the Pandavas. So he was… Bhisma of coarse is a mahajana, one of the great souls in the universe, one of the twelve topic authorities in the universe on Krsna consciousness… a very big personality. And uh, of coarse he knows everything about religion, he's mahajana. Somehow or other he found himself involved in Krsna-lila, and he had to act in certain ways… sometimes he had to act even in apparently even inimical (horrible spelling) to the Pandavas… although he was their grandfather… So, he loved them. So finally, the lila was over, the battle was over, their was no need anymore to do these things, he was lying there, preparing to go back home, back to godhead. And uh, the Pandavas came with Krsna. All the important personalities of the universe came there. Bhisma… it's described in the Bhagavatam when he saw the Pandavas, he was so Vedic, he was such a nice Vedic gentleman… he was lying on a bed of arrows piercing his body, getting ready to give up this world, and yet when they came he recieved them very nicely. Gentleman. And yet although he tried to recieve them, he was so chocked up, he was so overwhelmed by seeing the Pandavas - caused he loved them very much… and he knew they were intimate devotees of Krsna - that he began to cry… although he's most powerful ksatriya in the world… And as he was crying, he said he could not even see them. And then he expressed his real opinion which he could not express before because of circumstances. He said (Sanskrit). He said, "How painful, how improper… (Sanskrit) …that all of you poor boys, who are the sons of religion personified… how you had to suffer. So how terrible this is!" So he was crying like that. Then he said, " (Sanskrit) My dear boys - grandsons - that person whom you thought was your maternal cousin, You thought he was a son of your mother's brother… your cousin… you thought that. And you thought that He was your friend and chariot driver and so on… You were sending Him to deliver messages back and forth… "

The are many examples all around you… once you have the knowledge. I know you have the knowledge Govindaram, therefore you can judge my answer. Gopis may have experienced this when Krsna dissapeared during the rasa dance. Consider the pride of Krsna's descendents when Samba joked with the sages about being pregnant. Powerful people can act indulgent - especially on a material level. Having an "original" friend can make you haughty. I see it in my speech. (I see it in your speech… alot of the time)

That's a straw-man argument for a trick. Anyone?