sant

Reminds me i saw a movie where i heard christians had imprisoned galileo or some philosopher when he said earth revolves around the sun.

nice to see you melvin.

the tantric sure does try to hard.

Anyway that doesnt prove much this guy is some president of some rationalist whatever.If you know about the tantric then talk.This was shown live and i had seen it.THanks for the information.

What a stunt

I cant imagine why a real tantrik would come on TV and do such a thing. Why a real tantrik would even want to reveal themselves as one is beyond me.

 

This is just another stunt to gain publicity. After all it is not like one is given a certificate of being a real tantrik....

 

This is very similar to the methods used by Christian missionaries to convert people.

 

 

 

It was a challenge by a rationalist.

Strong mind helps you in not getting influenced by cheap tricks.The socalled tantrik is nothing but a fool.Can any tantrik kill somebody on a livetv show and escape from prosecution?.

 

 

well i meant strong mind that not alowing the tantrik vashikaran to effect you.Vashikaran works as it forces your mind to be hypnoticed.Tantric methods work if they enter in to your mind and weaken you from there.

That is the trick.If your mind is weakened and you lose hope then the effects of tantra can increase as it promotes more negativity in you.

India TV is 100% bogus and that was just a way to gain higher TRP. Tantra is a very complicated science and not anyone can understand it. It has the powers to do anything and no humble people like Sanal can challenge it

Agree about indiatv's corruption.

But i dont think this is bogus. Sunal is a ratiionalist with a strong mind thats why the tantra didnt effect him.

This is the question not which warrior was superior.

RATIONALIST INTERNATIONAL

On 3 March 2008, in a popular TV show, Sanal Edamaruku, the president of Rationalist International, challenged India’s most “powerful” tantrik (black magician) to demonstrate his powers on him. That was the beginning of an unprecedented experiment. After all his chanting of mantra (magic words) and ceremonies of tantra failed, the tantrik decided to kill Sanal Edamaruku with the “ultimate destruction ceremony” on live TV. Sanal Edamaruku agreed and sat in the altar of the black magic ritual. India TV observed skyrocketing viewership rates.

Everything started, when Uma Bharati (former chief minister of the state of Madhya Pradesh) accused her political opponents in a public statement of using tantrik powers to inflict damage upon her. In fact, within a few days, the unlucky lady had lost her favorite uncle, hit the door of her car against her head and found her legs covered with wounds and blisters.

India TV, one of India’s major Hindi channels with national outreach, invited Sanal Edamaruku for a discussion on “Tantrik power versus Science”. Pandit Surinder Sharma, who claims to be the tantrik of top politicians and is well known from his TV shows, represented the other side. During the discussion, the tantrik showed a small human shape of wheat flour dough, laid a thread around it like a noose and tightened it. He claimed that he was able to kill any person he wanted within three minutes by using black magic. Sanal challenged him to try and kill him.

The tantrik tried. He chanted his mantras (magic words): “Om lingalingalinalinga, kilikili….” But his efforts did not show any impact on Sanal – not after three minutes, and not after five. The time was extended and extended again. The original discussion program should have ended here, but the “breaking news” of the ongoing great tantra challenge was overrunning all program schedules.

Now the tantrik changed his technique. He started sprinkling water on Sanal and brandishing a knife in front of him. Sometimes he moved the blade all over his body. Sanal did not flinch. Then he touched Sanal’s head with his hand, rubbing and rumpling up his hair, pressing his forehead, laying his hand over his eyes, pressing his fingers against his temples. When he pressed harder and harder, Sanal reminded him that he was supposed to use black magic only, not forceful attacks to bring him down. The tantrik took a new run: water, knife, fingers, mantras. But Sanal kept looking very healthy and even amused.

After nearly two hours, the anchor declared the tantrik’s failure. The tantrik, unwilling to admit defeat, tried the excuse that a very strong god whom Sanal might be worshipping obviously protected him. “No, I am an atheist,” said Sanal Edamaruku. Finally, the disgraced tantrik tried to save his face by claiming that there was a never-failing special black magic for ultimate destruction, which could, however, only been done at night. Bad luck again, he did not get away with this, but was challenged to prove his claim this very night in another “breaking news” live program.

During the next three hours, India TV ran announcements for The Great Tantra Challenge that called several hundred million people to their TV sets.

The encounter took place under the open night sky. The tantrik and his two assistants were kindling a fire and staring into the flames. Sanal was in good humour. Once the ultimate magic was invoked, there wouldn’t be any way back, the tantrik warned. Within two minutes, Sanal would get crazy, and one minute later he would scream in pain and die. Didn’t he want to save his life before it was too late? Sanal laughed, and the countdown begun. The tantriks chanted their “Om lingalingalingalinga, kilikilikili….” followed by ever changing cascades of strange words and sounds. The speed increased hysterically. They threw all kinds of magic ingredients into the flames that produced changing colours, crackling and fizzling sounds and white smoke. While chanting, the tantrik came close to Sanal, moved his hands in front of him and touched him, but was called back by the anchor. After the earlier covert attempts of the tantrik to use force against Sanal, he was warned to keep distance and avoid touching Sanal. But the tantrik “forgot” this rule again and again.

Now the tantrik wrote Sanal’s name on a sheet of paper, tore it into small pieces, dipped them into a pot with boiling butter oil and threw them dramatically into the flames. Nothing happened. Singing and singing, he sprinkled water on Sanal, mopped a bunch of peacock feathers over his head, threw mustard seed into the fire and other outlandish things more. Sanal smiled, nothing happened, and time was running out. Only seven more minutes before midnight, the tantrik decided to use his ultimate weapon: the clod of wheat flour dough. He kneaded it and powdered it with mysterious ingredients, then asked Sanal to touch it. Sanal did so, and the grand magic finale begun. The tantrik pierced blunt nails on the dough, then cut it wildly with a knife and threw them into the fire. That moment, Sanal should have broken down. But he did not. He laughed. Forty more seconds, counted the anchor, twenty, ten, five… it’s over!

Millions of people must have uttered a sigh of relief in front their TVs. Sanal was very much alive. Tantra power had miserably failed. Tantriks are creating such a scaring atmosphere that even people, who know that black magic has no base, can just break down out of fear, commented a scientist during the program. It needs enormous courage and confidence to challenge them by actually putting one’s life at risk, he said. By doing so, Sanal Edamaruku has broken the spell, and has taken away much of the fear of those who witnessed his triumph.

In this night, one of the most dangerous and wide spread superstitions in India suffered a severe blow.

The whole program is video-recorded and is available. If you want a copy, please contact: info_desk@rationalistinternational.net

Email: Click here for contacting Sanal Edamaruku by email.

my favorite character in mahabharata is Bheeshma, because in his whole life he did not do anything for himself, his whole life was dedicated to his motherland Hastinapur also he was the most respected person in the kingdom of Hastinapur, even he was respected by Lord Krishna also, so it depicts that how great he was.

 

I find less people who can come close to be maryada purushotam like god ram one of then is bheesmji.

Ahhh, thank you for your most excellent & erudite statement(s) --(I shall remember it & use it for myself):

 

"Srila Prabhupada substituted "demigods" for "gods" because Gaudiya Vaishnavism is not pantheism and the term "gods" has always been associated with pantheism."

 

"It was a very wise semantic device that helps to distinguish The Gaudiya monotheism from the largely polytheism that Hinduism is mainly known for in the western world and even in Asia."

 

"Srila Prabhupada's use of the term "demigod" was a very ingenius adaptation that demonstrates the Gaudiya Vaishnava monotheistim and separates it from the polytheistic Hindusim."

"There is only ONE God in Gaudiya Vaishnavism, hence Srila Prabhupada translates "deva" as demigods so as to try and prevent any misunderstanding that there are many gods and not ONE supreme God.<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->" --Sonic Yogi post #22

 

yes i also like this a lot.Words to express something relating to my views also.thanks

"I do not accept advice on sadhana as a substitute for an explanation on siddhanta." --Raghu

another good one

Thank you sant for the two Charts

is it valid from vasihnava view .

there are more its from this -

http://www.aboutkrishna.com/....

That is a Shaiva Upanisad and it is not a principal Upanisad that even Sankaracarya commented on.

 

Shankar acknowledged 10 principle Upanisads for the basis of his Advaita Vedanta.

 

1. Aitareya (ṚV)

2. Bṛhadāraṇyaka (ŚYV)

3. Taittirīya (KYV)

4. Chāndogya (SV)

5. Kena (SV)

6. Īṣa (ŚYV)

7. Śvetāśvatara(KYV)

8. Kaṭha (KYV)

9. Muṇḍaka (AV)

10. Māṇḍūkya (AV)

11. Praśna (AV)

 

As such, the Upanisad that you have quoted is not a mukhya Upanisad that Shankar commented on in formulating his Advaita doctrine.

 

Different Upanisads were meant for different classes of people.

For those who could not follow the Mukhya Upanisads, there are are the Shaiva Upanisads.

 

In the Muktika Upanishad's list of 108 Upanishads the first 10 are grouped as mukhya "principal". 21 are grouped as Sāmānya Vedānta "common Vedanta", 23 as Sannyāsa, 9 as Shākta, 13 as Vaishnava, 14 as Shaiva and 17 as Yoga Upanishads.

 

There are Upanisads specifically meant for those souls who cannot adopt the sattvic Vishnu worship. For them, there are the Shaiva oriented Upanisads aimed at developing their worship of Siva.

 

Shankar knew he could not establish his

yes sorrry i got it. i wanted to confirm on this upanishad.

I think your 8.7.21 post applies here also.

A demigod is the offspring of a human and a God. Greek heroes Perseus and Hercules were demigods, as while they both had mortal mothers, their father was the God Zeus. Lord Shiva and none of the Hindu devas fall into this category. The only real "demigods" mentioned in the Hindu scriptures are the five Pandava brothers, who were born from relationships between gods (Indra, Yama, Vayu and the Aswins) and Kunti and Madri (humans

no you can become indra and 33 crore devas taht is why they are demigods.Prabhupadas translation was different from greek one.

shri sonic yogi what about this upanishad

do your words apply here also

Om ! May He protect us both together; may He nourish us both together;

May we work conjointly with great energy,

May our study be vigorous and effective;

May we not mutually dispute (or may we not hate any).

Om ! Let there be Peace in me !

Let there be Peace in my environment !

Let there be Peace in the forces that act on me !

Now, at this moment, I take refuge in that Pure State of the Supreme Absolute which can be known by the Vidya, called the Rudra Hridaya Upanishad.

After prostrating before the celebrated form of Sri Mahadeva-Rudra in his heart, adoring the sacred Bhasma and Rudraksha and mentally reciting the great Mahavakya-Mantra, Tarasara, Sri Suka asked his father Sri Vyasa Maharshi, thus:

Who is the real God of gods? In whom are all these existences established? By worshipping whom, can I please the Devas in whole?

Hearing these words, Sri Veda Vyasa replied thus:

Rudra is the embodiment of all Devas. All devas are merely different manifestations of Sri Rudra Himself. On the right side of Rudra, there is the sun, then the four-headed Brahma, and then three Agnis (fires). On the left side, there exist Sri Umadevi, and also Vishnu and Soma (moon). Uma Herself is the form of Vishnu. Vishnu Himself is the form of the moon. Therefore, those who worship Lord Vishnu, worship Siva Himself. And those who worship Siva, worship Lord Vishnu in reality. Those who envy and hate Sri Rudra, are actually hating Sri Vishnu. Those who decry Lord Siva, decry Vishnu Himself. Rudra is the generator of the seed. Vishnu is the embryo of the seed. Siva Himself is Brahma and Brahma Himself is Agni. Rudra is full of Brahma and Vishnu. The whole world is full of Agni and Soma. The masculine gender is Lord Siva. The feminine gender is Sri Bhavani Devi. All the mobile and immobile creation of this universe, is filled up with Uma and Rudra. The Vyakta is Sri Uma, and the Avyakta is Lord Siva. The combination of Uma and Sankara is Vishnu. Hence everybody should prostrate to Sri Maha Vishnu with great devotion. He is the Atman. He is the Paramatman. He is the Antaratman. Brahma is the Antaratman. Siva is the Paramatman. Vishnu is the Eternal Atman of all this universe. This whole creation of Svarga, Martya and Patala Lokas is a big tree. Vishnu is the top portion (branches) of this tree. Brahma is the stem. The root is Lord Siva. The effect is Vishnu. The action is Brahma. The cause is Siva. For the benefit of the worlds. Rudra has taken these three forms. Rudra is Dharma. Vishnu is the world. Brahma is Knowledge. Therefore, do Kirtan of His name, ‘Rudra’, ‘Rudra’. By singing like this, the hallowed name of this great Lord, all your sins will be destroyed. Rudra is man. Uma is woman. Prostrations to Him and Her. Rudra is Brahma. Uma is Sarasvati. Prostrations to Him and Her. Rudra is Vishnu. Uma is Lakshmi. Prostrations to Him and Her. Rudra is Sun. Uma is shadow. Prostrations to Him and Her. Rudra is moon. Uma is star. Prostrations to Him and Her. Rudra is day. Uma is night. Prostrations to Him and Her. Rudra is Yajna. Uma is Vedi. Prostrations to Him and Her. Rudra is Agni, Uma is Svaha. Prostrations to Him and Her. Rudra is Veda. Uma is Sastra. Prostrations to Him and Her. Rudra is tree. Uma is creeper. Prostrations to Him and Her. Rudra is scent. Uma is flower. Prostrations to Him and Her. Rudra is meaning. Uma is word. Prostrations to Him and Her. Rudra is Linga. Uma is Pitha. Prostrations to Him and Her. The devotee should worship Sri Rudra and Uma with these Mantras referred to above. O my son, Suka! With these hymns, you should meditate on the Eternal Para-Brahman, which is beyond the reach of the senses, which is pure Existence, knowledge and Bliss and which cannot be understood either by the speech or by the mind. After knowing this, there is nothing more to be known, because everything is the form of That, and there is nothing separate from That.

There are two Vidyas to be known. They are Para and Apara. Apara Vidya is the embodiment of the four Vedas and their six Angas. They do not deal with the Nature of the Atman. But the Para Vidya is called the Moksha-Sastra. It deals with that supreme philosophy of the Absolute Truth, ununderstandable, impersonal, Nirguna, Nirakara, without ears, without eyes, without hands, without feet, eternal, omnipresent, imperishable, and knowable by the intelligent daring sages.

From that Lord Siva who performs a terrible penance in the form of Supreme Jnana-Marga, this whole world is created which is the food of the mortals. This world is Maya. It seems to appear just like a dream. It is superimposed on the Lord just like a rope on a serpent. This is the eternal Truth. There is no creation in reality. All is absolute. All is Truth. Knowing this, one is liberated at once. Only through Jnana, you can get rid of this Samsara. Only through Jnana, you can understand this existence and never through Karma. Understand this through the guidance of a Brahmanishtha-Srotriya Guru. The Guru will give the disciple all the necessary knowledge of Brahman, the Absolute. By cutting off the bondage of Ajnana or Avidya, one should take refuge in Lord Sadasiva. This is the real wisdom to be understood by an aspirant seeking after Truth. The Pranava is the bow. The Atman is the arrow. The Para-Brahman is the target. Just like the arrow, the Atman will become one with Brahman. But all these three, the bow, the arrow and the target are not different from that Sadasiva. There do not shine the bodies of the sun, moon or the stars. There does not blow the wind, there do not exist many Devatas. He, the One Lord only exists. He only, the Purity of purities, shines for ever and ever.

There are two birds in this body, the Jiva and the Paramatman. The Jiva eats the fruit of his Karmas, but the Paramatman is untouched by anything. The Paramatman is only the Sakshi. He does not do anything. He only assumes the form of the Jiva through His Maya, just as the Akasa inside a pot seems to be different from the Akasa outside and assumes the form of the pot. In reality all is Siva, Advaita, the One Absolute. There is no difference of whatever kind.

When all is understood to be One, Omkara, the Absolute, there is no sorrow, there is no Maya. Then the attainment of the Advaita-Paramananda is very easy. Think that you are the basis of all this universe, you are the One, Kevala, Sat-Chit-Ghana. All people cannot understand this Truth. Those devoid of Maya can know this secret. After knowing this, the Atman does not move towards any place at any time. It becomes one with the Absolute, just like Ghatakasa with Paramakasa. Just as Akasa does not move anywhere, similarly this Atman does not have any movement. It becomes one with OM.

One who knows this great secret Truth is the real Muni. He becomes the Para-Brahman Itself. He becomes Satchidananda. He attains permanent peace.

Om ! May He protect us both together; may He nourish us both together;

May we work conjointly with great energy,

May our study be vigorous and effective;

May we not mutually dispute (or may we not hate any).

Om ! Let there be Peace in me !

Let there be Peace in my environment !

Let there be Peace in the forces that act on me !

Here ends the Rudra-Hridayopanishad belonging to the Krishna-Yajur-Veda.

If Brahman transforms itself to become something less than itself, then not only is this against the principle of Vedanta,

Brahman can do anything isnt that vedik.

Why cant you take shiva as a manifestation of brahman.

Saying that Shiva is second to Vishnu is fine, but then why claim that Shiva and Vishnu are one? These are contradictory points of view.

This has been written in many places but that is why it is said they are one because the curd is nor different from milk and not the same.

Not only this even brahma vishnu and mahesh all three are called one.

this is from a krishna site.

i suppose this is gaudiya vaishnav

If Shiva is another form of Vishnu, then why would he get his strength by propitiating Vishnu? He should already have his strength, i.e. it should be an intrinsic quality of being who he is.

 

shiva is second from vishnu taht is why he takes power from him.

I do offer my prayers to the Lord's divine feet, but I do not accept advice on sadhana as a substitute for an explanation on siddhanta. If someone is trying to explain something (i.e. the alleged oneness and difference of Vishnu and Shiva), then it follows that we are meant to understand it. Otherwise, no point in trying to take a position that you cannot explain. The Gaudiya Vaishnava conception of oneness and differences of Vishnu and Shiva seems to be a very vague idea to reconcile what are obviously contradictory viewpoints in the Hindu tradition. The underlying assumptions that rationalize this seem no different that the ones used by mayavadis to rationalize "oneness" of jiva and brahman.

 

 

the milk and yoghurt example doesnt solve your question does it.

It is confusing since there is shiva rudra maheshwar sadashiva paratpar shiva all these are not exactly same

a pandit told me that it is done as a ritual just before you do puja you get cleaned and get ready similarly deity is also gotten ready with rituals.Abhishekham can be mantra abhishekham,abhishekham with milk etc.

i read somewhere it is done to invoke the deity.

Clearly Rama & Krishna are yet to show real interest in our world and our problems. Does not matter if you are a devotee or not - you need the right skills to land a job and the right care to treat an ailment. No magic is forthcoming from Vaikunta or Goloka or any such place.

 

 

Clearly your statements show that you have been very angry with god or something like that but anyway why do you keep blaming god and as for vishnu he is everywhere you following shankacharya donnt know that seems strange as for working i am already wasting enough time on eating sleeping etc thanks for your concern but god will take care.

With due respect, you should seriously work on improving your english for I said no such thing. This is just my opinion - but I believe time spent on improving your lingual skills is likely to benefit you more than time spent on Rama and Krishna

i dont know why you talk like that and since you follow shankaracharya why should you talk this nonsense.As for my english i i am sorry if you dont understand me as my writing skills or typing skills may not be very good its because i dont type much on the comoputer.

To recap, we are talking about Shaivas and their conception of a formless Shiva as claimed by Ranjeet. If you have evidence that Shaivas are characterized by worshipping a formless Shiva, which would mean the Shiva with a form is a non-Shaiva entity (as claimed by Ranjeet), then you may have a case. If not, then you can agree that we were just seeing more of Ranjeet's spiel.

 

so you believe now shaiva worship formless shiva

what do you think ? an average indian is less spiritual than an average western guy ?????!!!!!!!!!!!

 

<!-- / message -->

No they are more im talking about indians in this site and how do you define spiritual

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by sant

The lingam is the simplest and most ancient symbol of Shiva, especially of Parasiva, God beyond all forms and qualities.

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

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The Lingam is a form with shape, size and color. Nothing about a formless Shiva.

 

<!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Use some logic or maybe common sense </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

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OK.

 

<!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>The fact that kashmir shaivism teaches non dualism that means everything is brahman. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

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Any flavor of Shaivism or Vaishnavism, can always add to the fundamental concept of Shiva worship or Vishnu worship. Hardly means we can go the other way and make a generalization.

 

There are several Advaitins who worship Krishna and no one else. Can we conclude that Vaishnavism = Advaita?

 

Cheers

 

<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->

ok i told you they are advait in disguise but not true advait,i will tell you about formless shiva another time since i dont have the material right now,But i am not saying this myself but i have learnt this from a shaiv only and a really great one.

And for shivling it represents the formless god ask any shaivite that, have a look at prince goutham now-Characteristics of the Supreme Reality: The Supreme Reality is called Siva. He is infinite consciousness. He is eternal, changeless, formless, independent, omnipresent, omnipotent, omniscient, one without a second, beginningless, causeless, taintless, self-existent, ever free, ever pure, and perfect. He is not limited by time. He is infinite bliss and infinite intelligence. He is free from defects, the all-doer, the all-knower.

http://www.indiadivine.org/audarya/spiritual-discussions/39026-do-vaishnavas-ever-pray-lord-ganesha-5.html

Though he does not beleive in advait.