Audarya lila

Shvu, You said: To cry out sincerely to the Lord, one has to be sure that there is a Lord. According to you belief is necessary to know the truth, but for belief itself, one has to know the truth. It is a chicken_and_egg situation. My response: Any action you take requires that you have some 'belief' in what you are doing. You go to school and listen to the instructor because you have some 'belief' that he/she has some knowledge that will be of some benefit to you. Even the simple act of walking requires that you have some 'belief' that the ground will not give or that your leg will be able to support you. We are brought into this world with no knowledge and no remembrance of any experience. We learn by experience and by listening to those who have experience. You have a very naive attitude toward religion and religious pursuit (in my opinion). You state that all religious institutions exist for exploitation of foolish people by cheaters. This is not a very well thought out thesis. Surely you are aware of the many spiritual leaders that teach by their own example and live a life of complete surrender and dedication themselves. Getting back to the issue of consciousness - this is really the important point. You are conscious and will admit that your conscious experience is limited to your experiences in life and the situations you have passed through. No doubt you have 'experienced' sorrow, pain, anguish, joy, lust, love, hate, envy and a myriad of other conscious states of being. You will also admit that your experiences are limited and that you have unlimited possibilities to learn and expand your awareness and experiencial potential. You will also admit that others have different experiences and thus have access to different states of consciousness than you have. You state out of hand that you don't believe that anyone has experienced transcendence and has any realized knowledge of divinity. Of course, neither you or I can prove anyone elses experience and state of consciousness is transcendent or not. Previously Jnana dasa pointed out to you the texts in the Bhagavad-gita that describe the attributes that you will be able to objectifiably see in a realized soul. This is our only real measuring stick. Besides that, those who are open to experiences outside of their historical ones and who are humble will 'feel' the spirituality of those who are experiencing a higher state of consciousness. This is the meaning of divya jnana - knowledge that is given by the guru. He can impart knowledge onto you. This doesn't refer to book knowledge. It refers to experience of transcendence. Ultimately religion is about love and devotion. As a human being you can relate to this in that you experience these in relation to other humans. What love you can experience through devotion and dedication for instance to your parents or your wife is but a small sample of the infinite feelings and experience gained by love and dedication to God. I know this is off the topic of this thread, but it is relevant in that it touches on the life of the soul and the peak of human potential which is a life of love. Your servant, Audarya lila dasa

Dear Shvu, You have stated that it should be clear to anyone that death is a purely physical thing and happens when the body can no longer function. I happen to be a biochemist and have some knowledge that most likely exceeds yours in this area (feel free to correct me if I am wrong). You are incorrect in your assumptions. In fact science is still grappling with the issue of consciousness and death. There are those 'scientists' who believe as you say, but that is a far distance from empirical data. As far as pure devotees using science when it is convenient goes - again you misunderstand and your contempt for those of faith is all too transparent. Pure devotees use everything for Krsna and have no disdain for science or scientists. They have no fear of having their 'beliefs' shattered as they are living in a land of realization, not mere belief. A devotee will always point out where misconception is passed as knowledge and where dogma is pushed forward as 'science'. The spiritualist looks at the world in a completely different way than the modern scientist. The spiritualist operates from the paradimagic view that life comes from life and that life generates matter. The modern scientist operates from a world view that matter generates life and that all phenomena can be understood from a chemical/physical perspective. Much insight into life has been gained from both types of inquiry. You seem to feel that only the empirical data of the modern scientist is worthy of your respect and you have much faith in the 'scientific process'. There are many who don't consider that these two are mutually exclusive - although the underlying world views are certainly diametrically opposed to each other. Still, any honest person should appreciate knowledge, whatever it's source, as it sheds light on our world and our very selves. You have chosen to ignore the insight and investigation of 'spiritual scientists' in favor of an atheistic world view which denies the existence of 'spirit'. Still, you are a conscious being. That you cannot deny. Those you have placed your faith in have failed in their understanding of consciousness. It cannot be explained empirically. Spiritualists have faired much better in this area. You deny their findings and call them fairy tales. Yet you cannot deny that you are conscious. And that you experience life based on that consciousness. There are conscious experiences that validate and verify the findings of saints and spiritualists. You have to be willing to try the experiments on yourself in order to gain access to that validation as it is 'experienced' - not 'thought about'. Your servant Audarya lila dasa [This message has been edited by Audarya lila (edited 07-19-2001).]

Dear Shvu, That you are conscious proves that you can experience and that you, at least in theory, have the possibility of awareness beyond the confines of your mind and senses. This is the realm of yoga and meditation. As I said, you have shown by your posts that you have no appreciation for the contributions of spiritualists. You ask me to prove to you the existence of the soul. By this request I assume you want logic and reason. You are well aware that this is not possible and so you will continue on in your materialistic way. One only has to read the Bhagavad-gita or Srimad Bhagavatam, or for that matter the Bible or Koran, to understand what the 'spiritual scientists' have contributed to humanity. Love and beauty, truth and justice, dedication and service are just a few of the endearing and noble contributions to humanity that come not from science in the modern sense but from rather they come to us as fruits of spiritual pursuit. Control of the mind and senses by yoga and meditation has proven beneficial to the health of the human being even as measured by empirical data. Spiritual awakening comes from a deep inquiry within yourself and a crying out to the Supreme lord with all your heart. The Bible says 'seek and ye shall find, knock and the door shall be opened to you'. This 'truth' can only be understood by one who is willing to submit him/herself and cries out in all sincerity to the Lord. Other than that there is no empirical proof and if you are waiting for that you will wait for eternity. Realize your own limitations and cry out for mercy and help and you will find that it is coming in ways unexpected and abundantly. Life is ultimately meaningful and fruitful because of our ability to love. And you will never find a higher love than you will experience if you give yourself to loving and serving the creator of all that is. Your servant, Audarya lila dasa

What is Chakra and VNN? Who is Narayan Maharaja? Answer: Find out for yourself what VNN and Chakra are by visiting the web sites - Chara.org and VNN.org repectively. These are sites dedicated to vaishnavism with slightly different affilitations. Narayana Maharaja is a well known Gaudiya teacher with many disciples around the world. He is a spiritual cousin to the disciples of A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami as his guru is Prabhupada's god brother. Just curious, whats your connection with Jagat/random Axix 0 etc? Answer: Jagat is up in Canada and Random is in Idaho with the potatoes - the connection is Krsna. Do you guys stay together but dont talk to each other, so that you can discuss stuff here More seriously, I would like to know if you guys lead a religious life with minimum connections (like internet) to the material world Please let me know to what degree am I right/wrong. Answer: Each person who posts here has a different story and living situation. Some are physically closely associated with other devotees regularly, others are not. I do sometimes feel like living a life worshipping God aka Krsna which would be altogether different from the one I am living now. I would like to have your guidance in case tommmorw I decide to do that. Answer: Don't wait. Start right away. Krsna says that there is no loss on your part and even a little advancement on the path of devotion can protect you from the most dangerous fear. You should start by simply sitting in a quiet place where you will not be disturbed and try chanting the Maha mantra: Hare Krsna Hare Krsna Krsna Krsna Hare Hare, Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare. Focus your mind on the mantra and chant peacefully with full concentration as long as you can. Do this each day and pray to Krsna for guidance. Your sincerity is what is required and will not go unnoticed or unrewarded. Please let me know. Please let me know. Please let me know. Please let me know. Thanks all, Rakesh

Just a quick note on the Papal infallibility comment by Jagat. Papal infallibility is really quite different from how you percieve it and is a well thought out philosophical doctrine. Papal infallibility does not, as you seem to have inferred, mean that the Pope is incapable of error. The Pope is considered human and capable of error like any other person. The drawing line is when the Pope speaks on issues of 'doctrine'. In that arena alone he is considered to be incapable of error. This does not refer customs, politics, temporary policies etc. Your servant, Audarya lila dasa

Dear Satyaraja Dasa, Krsna reveals himself to whoever he chooses to. Gaudiya Vaishnava's do recommend a process of sadhana which, if practiced honestly and with dedication, will put the sadhaka in a better position to recieve the mercy of Krsna. Practice and the fruit of the practice. Similar and sometimes indistinguishable. We are hearing and chanting and praying for service - yet this process is service - it is really quite a wonderful process to be involved in. If someone adopts the process of hearing and chanting and is following nicely but isn't recieving the fruits of that practice what will be the conclusion? The practice itself is faulty? The application is faulty? Will that person leave and then simply say that the grapes were sour anyway? I hope not. Spiritual life is dynamic and the only reason any of us isn't at the highest stage of realization is our own offensiveness and misunderstanding. Honesty, sincerity and constant practice and determination is what is wanted. The Guadiya conception is one which asks the practicioner to become selfless and become a servant to all. This is a good proposition and one which most practitioners of any faith based system would find consistent with their own belief system. What is the fruit - to become more humble than a blade of grass and tolerant to the extreme. Giving all respect to others and not expecting any in return. In that condition one can chant the Holy Name constantly. It is a rare soul indeed in whom practice and precept are synonymous. We all would do well to find such a rare soul and learn from him/her. Your servant, Audarya lila dasa

Dear Satyaraja Dasa, Krsna reveals himself to whoever he chooses to. Gaudiya Vaishnava's do recommend a process of sadhana which, if practiced honestly and with dedication, will put the sadhaka in a better position to recieve the mercy of Krsna. Practice and the fruit of the practice. Similar and sometimes indistinguishable. We are hearing and chanting and praying for service - yet this process is service - it is really quite a wonderful process to be involved in. If someone adopts the process of hearing and chanting and is following nicely but isn't recieving the fruits of that practice what will be the conclusion? The practice itself is faulty? The application is faulty? Will that person leave and then simply say that the grapes were sour anyway? I hope not. Spiritual life is dynamic and the only reason any of us isn't at the highest stage of realization is our own offensiveness and misunderstanding. Honesty, sincerity and constant practice and determination is what is wanted. The Guadiya conception is one which asks the practicioner to become selfless and become a servant to all. This is a good proposition and one which most practitioners of any faith based system would find consistent with their own belief system. What is the fruit - to become more humble than a blade of grass and tolerant to the extreme. Giving all respect to others and not expecting any in return. In that condition one can chant the Holy Name constantly. It is a rare soul indeed in whom practice and precept are synonymous. We all would do well to find such a rare soul and learn from him/her. Your servant, Audarya lila dasa

It is instructive to note, as Jiva Goswami has done in his Tattva Sandarbha, that the Srimad Bhagavatam was composed by Vyasa after he followed Narada's instructions and entered into samadhi. Also, the principal speaker in the Bhagavatam, Sukadeva Goswami, was a liberated soul (atmarama) from birth. Yet, he was attracted to the Bhagavatam and became it's principal speaker! Here are the eight verses from the first canto that are relevant to this discussion. 1) Thus he (Vyasa) absorbed his mind in bhakti-yoga free from material contamination and realized the purna-purusa along with his subordinate, material energy. 2) (He further realized that) the living entity (jiva), although transcendental to the three modes of material nature, thinks himself to be a product of them by virtue of identifying with them and thus suffers under their influence. 3) Thus Vyasa composed the Srimad-Bhagavatam (satvata-samhita) for the people in general, who are unaware that bhakti-yoga directed to the transcendental Godhead is the means of their deliverance from grief. 4) If a person merely hears the message of Srimad-Bhagavatam, devotion to Krsna, the parama purusa, will manifest within him and free him from lamentation, fear, and illusion. 5) After initially compiling Srimad-Bhagavatam, Vyasa revised it and then taught it to his son (Sukadeva), who was situated in renunciation. 6) (Having heard this from Suta Goswami) Sri Saunaka asked Suta: "Why did Sri Sukadeva Goswami, who was already living in renunciation and self-realized, rejoicing within, and unconcerned with his surroundings, study such a vast literature?" 7) Suta Goswami replied: " Sages such as Sukadeva who take pleasure in the self and are free from bondage, none-the-less relish unmotivated devotion to Urukrama (krsna). Such are the virtues of Hari." 8) Sukadeva Goswami, the son of Vyasa, was captivated by the virtues of Hari, and thus studied Srimad-Bhagavatam, becoming dear to Visnu's (Krsna's) devotees. These eight verses form the core of Sri Jiva's arguments and analysis in the Prameya Kanda section of his tattva sandarbha. From him we get the idea of understanding the Bhagavatam as 'samadhi bhasya' - the fruit of the trance of Vyasa. Sri Jiva concludes from Sukadeva's attraction to Krsna lila that the prayojana, or goal of life, is not mere liberation from worldliness, but positive attachment within transcendence to the personification of transcendence, Sri Krsna. Krsna prema, or love of Krsna, is the fruit of all transcendental culture. From Tripurari Swami's Bhavanuvada of Tattva Sandharbha: - "If God realization is the fourth dimension of consciousness (the first being waking state, second - dreaming, third - deep sleep), Jiva Goswami's idea of love of God, in which God becomes ours, is revolutionary. It seems to take us beyond even this fourth dimension. If we resign ourselves to becoming God's own, he takes the role of our maintainer. However,if he is ours, he is then subordinated to our love such that his Godhood is suppressed by that love. This is the Krsna conception of Godhead, one in which God appears not as God, nor jiva soul as jiva soul. Both interrelate intimately as lover and beloved, krsna and his gopis, beyond any sense of each other's ontological reality, yet beyond the material illusion as well. This dimension of love of Godhead is thus justifiably termed by the Gaudiya Vaisnavas as the fifth dimension, turyatitah, the dimension of the soul's soul." *Krsna has been described as beyond the fourth, turyatitah in the Gopala-tapani Unpanishad 2.96 Your servant, Audarya lila dasa

It is instructive to note, as Jiva Goswami has done in his Tattva Sandarbha, that the Srimad Bhagavatam was composed by Vyasa after he followed Narada's instructions and entered into samadhi. Also, the principal speaker in the Bhagavatam, Sukadeva Goswami, was a liberated soul (atmarama) from birth. Yet, he was attracted to the Bhagavatam and became it's principal speaker! Here are the eight verses from the first canto that are relevant to this discussion. 1) Thus he (Vyasa) absorbed his mind in bhakti-yoga free from material contamination and realized the purna-purusa along with his subordinate, material energy. 2) (He further realized that) the living entity (jiva), although transcendental to the three modes of material nature, thinks himself to be a product of them by virtue of identifying with them and thus suffers under their influence. 3) Thus Vyasa composed the Srimad-Bhagavatam (satvata-samhita) for the people in general, who are unaware that bhakti-yoga directed to the transcendental Godhead is the means of their deliverance from grief. 4) If a person merely hears the message of Srimad-Bhagavatam, devotion to Krsna, the parama purusa, will manifest within him and free him from lamentation, fear, and illusion. 5) After initially compiling Srimad-Bhagavatam, Vyasa revised it and then taught it to his son (Sukadeva), who was situated in renunciation. 6) (Having heard this from Suta Goswami) Sri Saunaka asked Suta: "Why did Sri Sukadeva Goswami, who was already living in renunciation and self-realized, rejoicing within, and unconcerned with his surroundings, study such a vast literature?" 7) Suta Goswami replied: " Sages such as Sukadeva who take pleasure in the self and are free from bondage, none-the-less relish unmotivated devotion to Urukrama (krsna). Such are the virtues of Hari." 8) Sukadeva Goswami, the son of Vyasa, was captivated by the virtues of Hari, and thus studied Srimad-Bhagavatam, becoming dear to Visnu's (Krsna's) devotees. These eight verses form the core of Sri Jiva's arguments and analysis in the Prameya Kanda section of his tattva sandarbha. From him we get the idea of understanding the Bhagavatam as 'samadhi bhasya' - the fruit of the trance of Vyasa. Sri Jiva concludes from Sukadeva's attraction to Krsna lila that the prayojana, or goal of life, is not mere liberation from worldliness, but positive attachment within transcendence to the personification of transcendence, Sri Krsna. Krsna prema, or love of Krsna, is the fruit of all transcendental culture. From Tripurari Swami's Bhavanuvada of Tattva Sandharbha: - "If God realization is the fourth dimension of consciousness (the first being waking state, second - dreaming, third - deep sleep), Jiva Goswami's idea of love of God, in which God becomes ours, is revolutionary. It seems to take us beyond even this fourth dimension. If we resign ourselves to becoming God's own, he takes the role of our maintainer. However,if he is ours, he is then subordinated to our love such that his Godhood is suppressed by that love. This is the Krsna conception of Godhead, one in which God appears not as God, nor jiva soul as jiva soul. Both interrelate intimately as lover and beloved, krsna and his gopis, beyond any sense of each other's ontological reality, yet beyond the material illusion as well. This dimension of love of Godhead is thus justifiably termed by the Gaudiya Vaisnavas as the fifth dimension, turyatitah, the dimension of the soul's soul." *Krsna has been described as beyond the fourth, turyatitah in the Gopala-tapani Unpanishad 2.96 Your servant, Audarya lila dasa

We should never forget that the Lord is still present to reform us all in the form of the Holy Name. What kind of faith do we have if we don't have faith that the Holy Name is non-different from Krsna and that he has all the powers of the Godhead? Jnana dasa, I know you have faith, I have read your many wonderful, intelligent and devotional posts on this forum and others as well. I merely point out the the Lord is fully present today as he was 500 years ago. As far as justice goes, I am not suggesting that we have none and have a lawless society wherein everyone is afraid to step outside. I am merely suggesting that we think about what Lord Chaitanya has given us and think about applying that to everyone, regardless of how sinful they may be. Jagai and Madhai didn't have to atone for their sins by being killed in order to - come to a higher positon later. By accepting the mercy given to them they were able to embrace devotional service and they repented deeply within themselves for their heinous past. Anyone is capable of this. That's all I am saying. We often times want to stress the need for a good justice system and a government that follows and upholds religious principles but I don't often hear devotees talking about administering mercy in this regard. I just wanted to present another side of this picture for you all to think about. I don't have all the answers - I am merely suggesting that it is worth looking at this issue from another perspective. Your servant, Audarya lila dasa

My wife if Catholic and is firmly against the death penalty. We have had many discussions on this issue over the years and I, for the most part, have almost always argued in favor of the penalty. About a year ago I was reading the account of the conversion of Jagai and Madhai and I realized that there certainly is room for another angle of vision with the Gaudiya vaishanva theology. I realized that if we had a Jagai or a Madhai in front of us today even the most outspoken critic of the death penalty would be hard pressed to support mercy in their case. Yet, that is the example that our Lord set. This has made me rethink the issue a little. I certainly have understood that without mercy - if I cry out for justice - I personally have no standing or hope for spiritual emancipation (even though I haven't committed the heinous crimes usually linked to death penalties in this life). So it is with this understanding that we have a merciful lord, that I personally would question such a hard stand in favor of 'justice'. Your servant, Audarya lila dasa

Dear Premananda, I agree with you totally. Who you follow is your choice and is not pertinent to this discussion. I also agree that vaishnava saints are inspiring. May we all be blessed with honesty, integrity, humility and, above all, a serving attitude. Your servant, Audarya lila dasa

Here are a couple of links with some interesting discussion regarding this bhajana and chanting japa. http://www.escribe.com/religion/sanga/m53.html http://www.escribe.com/religion/sanga/m35.html

Dear Gauracandra, I have read the book and I highly recommend it to anyone interested in a progressive view of Guadiya Vaishnavism. Of course, you should know that I am somewhat biased due to my affiliation with the author - but I did read it before taking diksha from him. The first chapter deals with the indian science of aesthetics and how Rupa Goswami presented Vedanta using this language of love and poetic expression. It also goes into much detail regarding the Krsna conception and how 'truth is beauty'. The second chapter deals with the rasa lila. It is very well written and goes into much detail showing the philosophical meaning behind the expressions of love found in this section of the Srimad Bhagavatam. I guarantee that you will find it a most rewarding read. The final chapter deals with raganuga bhakti and the life of the practicioner. It shows how the sadhaka applies the knowledge and enters into a life of love with Krsna. This is presented very thoughtfully and will add much to all practicioners lives. This description is based on the line of practice as inculcated by Srila Bhaktissidhanta Sarasvati and will therefore not be considered acceptable by those who view the practice of raganuga bhakti from a different angle of vision - nonetheless it is a very thoughtfull and thorough presentation on the subject. Your servant, Audarya lila dasa

Dear Animesh, My point at the beginning of my last post was a philosophical point meant to address the idea that our problems (any problem) can be solved by material adjustment. From a spiritual perspective our 'problem' is misidentification of self with matter. The soul needs neither money or food. On a practical level we know only as much about this situation as the information Atma has provided allows us. She asked the question at the start of this thread 'if material love is illusory.....' This is using a philophical point to justify doing what is morally and ethically wrong. If anyone wants to progress toward spiritual attainment they will first have to come to the platform of goodness - this cannot be bypassed. We must honestly endeavor for progress. The very question was posed in philosophical terms which to me indicates that the friend has some spiritual inclination - this cannot be discounted. The answer to her particular dilemna must be sought after with some consideration as to what is most beneficial to her spiritually. I am not discounting her material discomfort at all. But I am assuming that she also has some higher consideration. Material life in general (this goes for all of us whether we realize it or not) is characterized by Krsna as dukalayam asasvatam - miserable and temporary. Material prosperity may look attractive from one perspective, but from another it can be seen as an even more 'miserable' condition. Why? Krsna has explained it is temporary. You will lose it. We will all lose whatever comfortable position we have. We cannot avoid it. So who can say how miserable this is? To have something and be attached to it - but ultimately we will lose it. So I believe that if she is suffering materially she should try to alleviate this suffering as we all would, but she should also consider the consequences of her actions both on herself and others. We should strive to be morally upright. The way I have understood the situation - I would feel used if I were the old man. That's my perspective from the way Atma has presented this case. Given that, I also feel that Atma's friend cannot act in this way without some negative impact on her and this man. Your servant, Audarya lila dasa

The solution to all problems is ultimately spiritual. Material solutions will bring more problems along with solving - it is an endless cycle. For all spiritualists, whether dvaitin, advaitin or any other the actual problem is lack of self realization. So, from a spiritual perspective, Atma's friend would do well to focus on spiritual awakening and then she would realize the 'she' doesn't need money, food, etc. So how will Atma's friend come to this level of understanding? Or for that matter any of us? We have to start from where we are and progress accordingly being fully honest and not falsely jumping ahead. A good beginning is to learn to respect all others and try not to exploit others for our own personal needs. If she truly doesn't care for this person she should be honest and not use him for her selfish needs. What is the difference between this situation and prostitution? Appparently in both cases we have a woman, or man as the case may be, that compromises her/himself for some temporary gain. It's really a lose/lose scenario the way it has been presented. Atma, if your friend has no feeling and finds it perfectly acceptable to exploit and be exploited in such a 'merchant' fashion then she should proceed according to her understanding. The real issue isn't whether love is 'illusory'. The illusion is our misidentification with matter. We cannot divorce ourselves from our feelings. In the name of universal love (which until you are truly on that platform of realization is only mental ajustment) so many will become indifferent and cold calculating individuals? This is a bad policy and dishonest in the very least. We must have feelings and they should be progressive. They must move from selfishness to selflessness. Helping others in the beginning of development of a heart of compassion. Your servant, Audarya lila dasa

I think your friend needs to be true to herself. Honesty is always the best policy. As devotees, we are interested in dedication and should try to purge ourselves of the tendency toward exploitation and renunciation. Here's a question for you. Do you think your friend will truly be 'better off' if she uses this gentleman to improve her material conditon? There is probably more to this than that, but I would suggest that your friend try her best to be a good and honest person - from there the rest will follow naturally. Your servant, Audarya lila dasa